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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
The problem with MMR decay is if a bunch of people all stop playing for a while and get demoted, they can never get re-promoted again! I'm in plat playing against former Masters.. and none of us will get promoted unless our win % goes up significantly.... which it won't because we're playing people of our skill level. -______- | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On November 20 2013 22:54 SnuggleZhenya wrote: As long as it's matching me against players who are roughly equal to me, I don't care what my league is. I have no illusions that I'm a pro, so does it really matter if the border on my portrait is platinum or diamond? Well tbh I agree, but we also have to make sure blizzard is upholding a good ladder system. If sc2 ranks is to be believe, the league %'s are all off (for example, NA ladder diamond+masters is closer to 9% rather than the 20% they intend... that's a massive discrepancy. That just creates a bad ladder system, much the same was MMR depreciation and allowing unranked vs. ranked is. I get that most ppl don't care what league they are in as long as they're having fun, but we should also expect blizzard to uphold a strong ladder system. | ||
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Ctone23
United States1841 Posts
On November 20 2013 23:38 DinoMight wrote: Ok so I'm not hallucinating, it really is getting harder. The problem with MMR decay is if a bunch of people all stop playing for a while and get demoted, they can never get re-promoted again! I'm in plat playing against former Masters.. and none of us will get promoted unless our win % goes up significantly.... which it won't because we're playing people of our skill level. -______- Yeah there is hardly any reward in the current ladder system. Makes absolutely no sense to me. The game is only balanced to top tier Korean pros (has to be this way of course) so why is there no love for the lower leagues? The 2% Masters out there need to get off their high horse. I was in Diamond for several seasons then get demoted every season since hots came out for no reason at all. No reward makes me not want to play. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On November 20 2013 23:42 ffadicted wrote: Well tbh I agree, but we also have to make sure blizzard is upholding a good ladder system. If sc2 ranks is to be believe, the league %'s are all off (for example, NA ladder diamond+masters is closer to 9% rather than the 20% they intend... that's a massive discrepancy. That just creates a bad ladder system, much the same was MMR depreciation and allowing unranked vs. ranked is. I get that most ppl don't care what league they are in as long as they're having fun, but we should also expect blizzard to uphold a strong ladder system. I agree. I think what you mean to say is that being in a specific league should equate to a certain skill level. Right now I wouldn't be surprised if Plat was like 40% of the player base with people ranging in skill everywhere from Masters to actual Plat. It's just meaningless to be plat right now. Some people I play are awful and some are insanely good. | ||
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Moonsalt
267 Posts
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Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
Having said that… this season is an anomaly. The skill level has been pretty consistent in the ranks in seasons past. You usually know what you’re getting when faced against a gold/plat/dia etc… IMO (backed by my own observations) this is 100% due to ladder decay. I am in Plat and NO ONE I play was in plat last season. Most have been in Masters 8+ times. You don’t go from a perennial masters player to a platinum due to ladder shrinkage. You go because Blizzard thinks if you stop playing you suddenly became trash at the game and should get demoted. The fear of getting demoted due to inactivity is not keeping people playing.. the fact you get demoted and it's hard to get back is the ultimate deterrent. | ||
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
gold league is such a mess right now either im getting a really easy "goldish" opponent or im getting ex master players and they just destroy me... | ||
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Ctone23
United States1841 Posts
On November 21 2013 00:03 KOtical wrote: alot harder imo, i been Dia before and i got inactive for around 1,5 months. after coming back i was demoted from Dia to Gold. and now i stuck in gold coz i just play ex masters players... gold league is such a mess right now either im getting a really easy "goldish" opponent or im getting ex master players and they just destroy me... Same situation here. One could argue it doesn't matter what league you are in as long as you are having fun. For me though, it isn't fun after working really hard to get diamond only to get demoted season after season to gold, then face former masters players all the time. | ||
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Moonsalt
267 Posts
On November 21 2013 00:03 KOtical wrote: alot harder imo, i been Dia before and i got inactive for around 1,5 months. after coming back i was demoted from Dia to Gold. and now i stuck in gold coz i just play ex masters players... gold league is such a mess right now either im getting a really easy "goldish" opponent or im getting ex master players and they just destroy me... Exactly the same situation as me :< | ||
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GizmoPT
Portugal3040 Posts
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iggym
United States49 Posts
That said... the talk about MMR decay is seriously overblown. It is nothing more than the hot new scapegoat for players trying to come to terms with dropping a league or three. "No way, I'm not REALLY gold. I'm ex-masters! And I'd be back there, but this stupid MMR decay means I have to play 500 games a season just to get there! Nothing to do with my play!" If you're wrecking your competition and coming in at a 75%+ winrate, then you have a beef with MMR decay... if you dropped to gold and have a 50% winrate, then you're where you belong. People complain about hitting "ex-masters" players regularly, but I suggest you check their profile beyond looking at their ladder finishes. My division has a ton of former diamonds who are right around 50% (myself included), it's just where the distribution is now. | ||
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GizmoPT
Portugal3040 Posts
On November 21 2013 00:19 iggym wrote: The ladder is definitely harder, and the skill variance in gold is pretty wild. That said... the talk about MMR decay is seriously overblown. It is nothing more than the hot new scapegoat for players trying to come to terms with dropping a league or three. "No way, I'm not REALLY gold. I'm ex-masters! And I'd be back there, but this stupid MMR decay means I have to play 500 games a season just to get there! Nothing to do with my play!" If you're wrecking your competition and coming in at a 75%+ winrate, then you have a beef with MMR decay... if you dropped to gold and have a 50% winrate, then you're where you belong. People complain about hitting "ex-masters" players regularly, but I suggest you check their profile beyond looking at their ladder finishes. My division has a ton of former diamonds who are right around 50% (myself included), it's just where the distribution is now. ye if they play a lot of games they sure are in their deserved league MMR decay is just a thing for guys that dont play much at all | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
I got back into starcraft this week after not having played for 2 years, and I'm in gold league playing people who used to be in master league, and they're definitely way better than what gold leaguers used to be when I stopped playing (I was around rank 20 masters before I quit). On November 20 2013 23:45 Ctone23 wrote: Yeah there is hardly any reward in the current ladder system. Makes absolutely no sense to me. The game is only balanced to top tier Korean pros (has to be this way of course) so why is there no love for the lower leagues? The 2% Masters out there need to get off their high horse. I was in Diamond for several seasons then get demoted every season since hots came out for no reason at all. No reward makes me not want to play. How is there no reward? If anything, a harder ladder means there is much more of a reward to improving now. Getting into diamond was incredibly easy, and hence meant almost nothing. Increasing the skill required to enter each league can now make it feel meaningful to hit plat / diamond / masters. Better than masters / high diamond being everybody who knows how to play, and every league below diamond consisting of casual players who have no idea what they're doing | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On November 21 2013 00:19 iggym wrote: The ladder is definitely harder, and the skill variance in gold is pretty wild. That said... the talk about MMR decay is seriously overblown. It is nothing more than the hot new scapegoat for players trying to come to terms with dropping a league or three. "No way, I'm not REALLY gold. I'm ex-masters! And I'd be back there, but this stupid MMR decay means I have to play 500 games a season just to get there! Nothing to do with my play!" If you're wrecking your competition and coming in at a 75%+ winrate, then you have a beef with MMR decay... if you dropped to gold and have a 50% winrate, then you're where you belong. People complain about hitting "ex-masters" players regularly, but I suggest you check their profile beyond looking at their ladder finishes. My division has a ton of former diamonds who are right around 50% (myself included), it's just where the distribution is now. Except when you're ex-Masters and playing other ex-Masters, your win rate isn't going to be significantly >50%. Because of ladder decay/innactivity these people all got demoted from Masters to Diamond/Plat, from Diamond to Plat/Gold. I had a buddy who skipped 1 season (played only his placement, and won). He dropped 2 leagues by winning 1 game! So now we're all in Plat, fighting other people of our skill level in Plat. We're not going to have significantly >50% win rate but we're all much more talented than what has traditionally come to be expected from Platinum players. And no, getting into Diamond was never, "extremely easy." This game requires so much dedication to it... you can't be in Diamond without laddering a lot and also watching a ton of pro games, Day9 TV, or whatever. Compared to other games the skill cap is way way higher and builds/strategy/meta are always changing which requires constant attention to the game. I haven't played Counter-Strike in a while.. but my skill there is capped at how fast I can click on someone's head. Not the same with SC2. | ||
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Ctone23
United States1841 Posts
On November 21 2013 00:25 TheSubtleArt wrote: How is there no reward? If anything, a harder ladder means there is much more of a reward to improving now. Getting into diamond was incredibly easy, and hence meant almost nothing. Increasing the skill required to enter each league can now make it feel meaningful to hit plat / diamond / masters. Better than masters / high diamond being everybody who knows how to play, and every league below diamond consisting of casual players who have no idea what they're doing Diamond was NOT easy to get into during WoL. I'm just saying there isn't a lot of reward when you get demoted several times for no apparent reason, only to play really skilled opponents in GOLD league, haha, yea no reward there. | ||
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VeTerrAn1
Switzerland39 Posts
On November 21 2013 00:08 Ctone23 wrote: Same situation here. One could argue it doesn't matter what league you are in as long as you are having fun. For me though, it isn't fun after working really hard to get diamond only to get demoted season after season to gold, then face former masters players all the time. I was back after 12 games in platin this season after demotion to gold. But i only faced former dia/sometimes masters to get the promotion done. i stuck in platin since 2 season's but i really think i m far better at the game at the moment, just could not get up to diamand ^^ but as we see in this thread, there are a real problem with the ladder system as it is right now ... i red on battlenet (i think it was Leanytas on Eu) which wrote that blizzard noticed it and maybe will change something in the near future ... hope the will fix it , its no more motivation, the new system turns into frustration of the majority of ppl, i m fine with Platin recently, last season it takes about 80 games to get back , so i see just a little bit of improvement  gghf | ||
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Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
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klup
France612 Posts
The only time it's different it's at start of season where there is a comeback of the "protoss barcode effect" where you see a lot of cheeser trying to climb the ladder at any price. Btw if you are facing a protoss barcode just blind counter by playing hyper safe and enjoy freewin because he will cheese 100% of the time. | ||
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SpikeStarcraft
Germany2095 Posts
I was too lazy to lose a lot of games on purpose to get in the appropriate level for my offrace skill and when i just played 4 gate with my off race protoss i was still winning against master. So it wasnt that easy to just drop 2 leagues. | ||
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
On November 20 2013 21:54 EngrishTeacher wrote: Definitely noticing this on the Chinese server as well. I was Top 25 Masters 2 seasons ago, and this season... I lost my placement match, lost 2 more, and finally won 1 placing me at Rank 96 X_X Dat ladder fear kicking in again. Rank 96 Masters after you won your placement match? You are Rank 96 b/c you have no points.. That's how its always worked... | ||
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