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On November 21 2013 00:25 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 00:19 iggym wrote:
The ladder is definitely harder, and the skill variance in gold is pretty wild.
That said... the talk about MMR decay is seriously overblown. It is nothing more than the hot new scapegoat for players trying to come to terms with dropping a league or three. "No way, I'm not REALLY gold. I'm ex-masters! And I'd be back there, but this stupid MMR decay means I have to play 500 games a season just to get there! Nothing to do with my play!" If you're wrecking your competition and coming in at a 75%+ winrate, then you have a beef with MMR decay... if you dropped to gold and have a 50% winrate, then you're where you belong. People complain about hitting "ex-masters" players regularly, but I suggest you check their profile beyond looking at their ladder finishes. My division has a ton of former diamonds who are right around 50% (myself included), it's just where the distribution is now. Except when you're ex-Masters and playing other ex-Masters, your win rate isn't going to be significantly >50%. Because of ladder decay/innactivity these people all got demoted from Masters to Diamond/Plat, from Diamond to Plat/Gold. I had a buddy who skipped 1 season (played only his placement, and won). He dropped 2 leagues by winning 1 game! So now we're all in Plat, fighting other people of our skill level in Plat. We're not going to have significantly >50% win rate but we're all much more talented than what has traditionally come to be expected from Platinum players.
This is exactly what's happening from my personal experience haha
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On November 21 2013 00:29 Ignorant prodigy wrote:
the distribution is that way BECAUSE of mmr decay.. not because the countless number or people complaining have suddenly got bad at the game.
No, it is because the bottom has dropped out of the ladder. My argument isn't that players have gotten worse — because that is absurd — but that they've gotten better on average. There is no doubt that MMR decay will cause some ladder deflation, but people spin it way, way, way too hard. It doesn't kick in until two weeks of inactivity, you drop about a league after four weeks of inactivity, and there has always been decay/reset if you take entire seasons off.
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I think the people are playing to this day are better. I remember when it first came out I was crushing people with stupid things like widow mines and hell bat drops.......then they nerfed things, people got intelligent. So I would say overall the quality of players is much better than it was the noobs/people who don't wanna put effort in went to play other things. You will see similiar thing when LOTV comes out.
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On November 21 2013 00:43 iggym wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 00:29 Ignorant prodigy wrote:
the distribution is that way BECAUSE of mmr decay.. not because the countless number or people complaining have suddenly got bad at the game. No, it is because the bottom has dropped out of the ladder. My argument isn't that players have gotten worse — because that is absurd — but that they've gotten better on average. There is no doubt that MMR decay will cause some ladder deflation, but people spin it way, way, way too hard. It doesn't kick in until two weeks of inactivity, you drop about a league after four weeks of inactivity, and there has always been decay/reset if you take entire seasons off.
Do you have numbers to support this though?
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wow. Looks like I am not alone haha. Definitely feel that the ladder is a bit wacky atm.
Thank god. I guess I should just focus more on my play than the stupid league system :p
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On November 21 2013 00:48 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 00:43 iggym wrote:On November 21 2013 00:29 Ignorant prodigy wrote:
the distribution is that way BECAUSE of mmr decay.. not because the countless number or people complaining have suddenly got bad at the game. No, it is because the bottom has dropped out of the ladder. My argument isn't that players have gotten worse — because that is absurd — but that they've gotten better on average. There is no doubt that MMR decay will cause some ladder deflation, but people spin it way, way, way too hard. It doesn't kick in until two weeks of inactivity, you drop about a league after four weeks of inactivity, and there has always been decay/reset if you take entire seasons off. Do you have numbers to support this though?
For which part? The player base is smaller, and it makes sense that a higher proportion of people who have stopped playing were lower skilled. The decay info is straight out of Excalibur's post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=429734
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On November 21 2013 00:55 iggym wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 00:48 ffadicted wrote:On November 21 2013 00:43 iggym wrote:On November 21 2013 00:29 Ignorant prodigy wrote:
the distribution is that way BECAUSE of mmr decay.. not because the countless number or people complaining have suddenly got bad at the game. No, it is because the bottom has dropped out of the ladder. My argument isn't that players have gotten worse — because that is absurd — but that they've gotten better on average. There is no doubt that MMR decay will cause some ladder deflation, but people spin it way, way, way too hard. It doesn't kick in until two weeks of inactivity, you drop about a league after four weeks of inactivity, and there has always been decay/reset if you take entire seasons off. Do you have numbers to support this though? For which part? The player base is smaller, and it makes sense that a higher proportion of people who have stopped playing were lower skilled. The decay info is straight out of Excalibur's post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=429734
I meant for the smaller player base. The numbers I'm taking are from sc2 ranks (not sure if there are more reliable ones out there), and they're showing a massive league % discrepancy with much higher number of players in lower leagues than there should be (reverse for high leagues). This phenomenon could be explained by what most ppl here are saying, where higher players have been pushed down to lower leagues due to decay and can't get back up because they're 50% with other players from higher leagues that also got pushed down.
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I'm an ex masters in Gold.
Lucky I don't give a fuck :D
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On November 21 2013 01:02 Douillos wrote:
I'm an ex masters in Gold.
Lucky I don't give a fuck :D
Why would you? Probably wrecking kids in Gold. Good for you xD
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On November 21 2013 01:05 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 01:02 Douillos wrote:
I'm an ex masters in Gold.
Lucky I don't give a fuck :D Why would you? Probably wrecking kids in Gold. Good for you xD
As a goldie who keeps getting whipped by ex-masters, it gets me in the feelz everytime. But it does feel less bad to lose to someone who was at one point, very good.
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If only we could travel back in time, so many potential GSL champions in Gold now hehe. FruitDealer wouldn't stand a chance 
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On November 21 2013 01:05 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 01:02 Douillos wrote:
I'm an ex masters in Gold.
Lucky I don't give a fuck :D Why would you? Probably wrecking kids in Gold. Good for you xD
It's a nice way to get back into the game :p
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On November 20 2013 22:48 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 19:44 ZAiNs wrote:On November 20 2013 16:52 Psychobabas wrote:
If you are playing on NA, there is a great deal of Korean and EU smurfs there. Not so much on EU server as the lag between Europe and Korea is too much. You aren't going to play vs Korean pro smurfs in Platinum lol. never said pro. just lots of smurfs in every league.
Hey at HSC they said that jjakji was silver on his EU account or something like that :p
Also yeah i'm in bronze right now with Diamond to GM spending skill and overing at 160-180apm playing zerg.
- I did my placement match and ended up in Bronze. I played till i was rank1.
- Get to sleep. Played 4days later. Got back 1 (i was like 50).
- Didn't touch the game for a week. Played one night and got rank1 bronze again.
etc...
I have like 40games or so played and 1 defeat. Still a bronzie :p
(I was plat before played a lot of diamond and low masters so i was maybe close to diamond). Some guys from a clan i know are in gold and was master the season before. They are slowing coming back to their league but it seems to take time because they lose a lot of games against silver/gold that are ex masters.
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It seems most people that have posted in here are saying the same thing. I also have been a mid-high diamond every season and have started out in plat right now. I've played every season and use all my bonus pool, so it can't be due to mmr decay. Since so many people are describing the same exact thing, I wonder if the ladder could be bugged, and I'm pretty sure that there has been an issue with the ladder in the past. There shouldn't be a sudden change like this for so many people all at the same time unless there is something wrong.
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Hasn't this been happening since the MMR decay? I use to play Diamond end of WoL but went inactive in hots laddering only doing 1-5 matches at most per season which resulted in slowly dropping into silver last season. It put me off playing so I just don't ladder any more.
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The problem is for people that wants to get into a team that requires only Masters or High diamond. (This is kind of stupid tbh) but some requires it. It comes to a point when you don't know how you can recruit someone (well.. you could watch him play) but if the guy is gold and is REALLY gold... Well you wasted your time.
Well it's bad... But not as bad as iCcup :p if you play there after a period of time you are going to have a lot more defeat than wins :p THAT is a hard ladder :p
But really yeah. The Decay or whatever this is is making the ladder look like shit right now. Maybe it will stabilize.
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Inb4 everyone's masters in LOTV.
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On November 21 2013 01:33 Cortza wrote:
Inb4 everyone's masters in LOTV.
Well... The points that it's quite the contrary. Masters are Gold, Diamond are Silver and Plat are bronze. It's the other way around.
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It's probably because SC2 barely has any playerbase any more D:
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On November 21 2013 00:43 iggym wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 00:29 Ignorant prodigy wrote:
the distribution is that way BECAUSE of mmr decay.. not because the countless number or people complaining have suddenly got bad at the game. No, it is because the bottom has dropped out of the ladder. My argument isn't that players have gotten worse — because that is absurd — but that they've gotten better on average. There is no doubt that MMR decay will cause some ladder deflation, but people spin it way, way, way too hard. It doesn't kick in until two weeks of inactivity, you drop about a league after four weeks of inactivity, and there has always been decay/reset if you take entire seasons off.
There are no predetermined quotas for different leagues. You get promoted when your MMR goes over league threshold. For example if all players who are currently in bronze MMR range would quit, it would have no immediate effect on other player's MMR. There would just be no bronze range players for a while. Bronze range would start filling slowly via MMR decay, players' MMR dropping to bronze range naturally by losing games and new players entering the ladder.
Player base is slowly decreasing, but the numbers are still healthy. For example for EU last season 64.2 k players had played their 1v1 placements after 1 week. This season 51.6 k players had played the placements after 1 week. For NA the numbers were 54.6k for last season & 44.2 k for this season. The player amount will increase during the season. When ladder lock started 1 week before end of last season 144.9 k players had played their 1v1 placement in EU (133.2 k in NA). After the first week, typically about 10k to 15 k people entered 1v1 ladder each week both in EU & NA last season. These numbers are based on data from sc2ranks (I have taken snapshots of the distribution regularly since start of last season).
MMR decay is the logical main reason why ladders are currently messed up. There are multiple other minor reasons that affect the ladders too, such as player base slowly decreasing, unranked mode, global play (as these accounts are played less, they also more likely face decay), new players, players who faced full MMR reset (did not play for full season), MMR abusers, etc.
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EPT
