Both sOs and Jaedong had a champion slaying road on their way to the grand finals of the WCS 2013 Global Finals. sOs had defeated Hero, Polt and Bomber and Jaedong crushed through Mvp, Dear and maru. It was no secret how each player was going to approach the series; sOs had been getting into the heads of his opponents and destroying them with carefully selected strategies while Jaedong had crushed his foes with merciless aggression coupled with flawless mechanics -- very reminiscent of the Jaedong we saw during his peak in Brood War.
It was clear that this would be a tournament to remember, regardless of the result. Over 150,000 fans from all over the world had tuned into watch this series, and it started off with an epic game.
sOs tried to dictate the series right from the opening of the first game with a low ground cannon rush on Akilon Wastes. Despite forcing a cancel, the game was still relatively even. Jaedong progressed towards a hydra/roach/viper composition which he used to put on relentless pressure on sOs. Through some miracle, sOs held the aggression and was able to finally get his fourth after being denied multiple times. Jaedong did well defending sOs's counter harass attempts, saving hatcheries with less than 100hp multiple times, and that set him up well for the late game. Jaedong’s decided for an ultralisk late game planning a switch into mutalisks. But sOs was one step ahead. sOs went for a base trade with a archon/colossus/stalker/templar near maxed army with three stargate phoenix replacing any lost supply. Jaedong was somewhat indecisive in committing to the base trade, but there was little he could do. sOs crushed Jaedong’s army before he got to the critical mass of mutalisks and took an impressive game 1.
Jaedong's aggression in game 1 was fearsome
sOs opened game 2 with yet another cannon rush in an innovative position on Derelict Watcher. This time the cannon rush was more successful – scoring a cancelled hatch and a few drone kills. sOs continued the pressure with a warp gate zealot +1 attack from the pylon used to cannon rush. The attack hit at an awkward timing which forced, and killed, many zerglings. From this awkward position Jaedong attempted to go for his tried and true spire play, but sOs already had two stargates producing phoenix before the spire had even completed or been scouted. Jaedong gained back some ground with a zergling deny on sOs's third, but continued zealot pressure in his main and awkwardly positioned fourth kept sOs in the drivers seat. Things turned dire as sOs’s phoenixes terrorized Jaedong’s scattered bases – destroying corruptors with perfect control, slaughtering overlords and drones mercilessly and reducing Jaedong to effectively one mining base. It wasn’t long before Jaedong was forced to tap out.
sOs's second cannon rush went significantly better
Game 3 on Whirlwind returned the series to some level of normality – with Jaedong not fazed by the cannon rushes in games 1&2 and going for three hatch before pool. While sOs went for a standard nexus first build into stargate tech. sOs then shocked everyone by dropping a third base in another main hoping it would be unscouted. After a botched void ray attack, Jaedong started to play the game of ‘deny the third’ without knowing of sOs’s hidden base. Things still looked okay for sOs as sold the image of him having a delayed third well. But Jaedong kept up the pressure by going for an unscouted mutalisks transition and for the first time caught sOs off guard. With sOs's army being mostly zealots and void rays, mutalisks were able to pick off key tech structures and probes.
Jaedong snipes off sOs's templar tech before storm finishes
With this move Jaedong took a clear upper hand in the game. With map control given by mass zerglings and mutalisks, it was easy for Jaedong to deny sOs’s fourth (or, from Jaedong's point of view, third) for a very long time. As infestors found their way into the mix, Jaedong managed to nab some units with fungal growth which enticed Jaedong to attack. However, sOs was able to clear up the mutalisks with phoenix/archon, but at the cost of losing his entire ground army to Jaedong’s zerglings. The zerglings went on to (once again) clear up sOs’s fourth.
From Jaedong’s point of view it looked like he had a clear edge with a scary infestor count, but the hidden base kept sOs competitive. But as Jaedong continued to trade his army with sOs’s it became increasingly clear that sOs was being out matched. Eventually Jaedong scored the perfect chain fungal and sOs lost any control over the game. Jaedong continued to soft contain sOs, traded off some more units before broodlord/infestor into Jaedong’s trademark mass mutalisks switch won a crucial point for the Tyrant.
On Polar Night in game 4 sOs opted for a gateway first opening, while Jaedong went for hatch/pool. After sOs expanded, he added a robotic facility to the surprise of the crowd and casters. It first produced a warp prism, which went to 'harass' Jaedong with a few zealots. sOs's aim wasn't to harass, rather it was to force Jaedong to build roaches and not drones to keep Jaedong on a lower economy in preparation for his follow up attack. After the faux harass sOs immediately followed it up with a scary zealot/immortal push. Somewhat uncharacteristically of the series, Jaedong failed to put up any kind of a fight and tapped out.
Trapping roaches with timewarps lead to an easy win
With cross positions on Frost both Jaedong and sOs continued the series with standard play; Jaedong with three hatch and sOs with nexus first into stargate. sOs managed to hide a pylon behind some line of sight blockers which allowed him to make a surprise zealot attack leading to slaughtering 10 drones and forcing many lings from Jaedong. This move set Jaedong 30-60seconds behind in his build, allowing sOs a more or less uncontested third base. After both sides consolidated their position, sOs moved out on the map putting pressure on Jaedong. Jaedong stumbled over himself to bolster his army and tried push sOs back. A poor engagement with his hydralisks baited sOs into attacking the Zerg who was not prepared. As colossus laser beams fried the last of Jaedong’s hydralisks, he tapped out conceding his fifth finals this year and crowning sOs as our 2013 world champion.
This zealot attack was crucial in securing the final win
As we reflect on the series it’s worth remarking that sOs played Protoss how it is meant to be played. He took what was strongest about the race (the strength of catching players unprepared) and took it to the next level. We saw five games where sOs took a different approach to the game, and each time seemed to be in Jaedong’s head. Even in the game he lost, sOs’s hidden base was never scouted and seemed to be one step ahead of Jaedong. Any player will tell you that a Protoss that has your number will be very difficult to defeat and that was unfortunately the case for Jaedong. The Tyrant played the series exceptionally well, but by the end of it you could see that sOs had won the mental game. It takes two players to give us an amazing final, and both Jaedong and sOs stood up and gave us one of the more memorable finals of 2013.
Great tournament overall with terrible final series. I can only hope sOs is the 2nd Sniper (i.e. I won't see him winning anything ever again). JD vs sOs rematch at DH Winter maybe?
On November 10 2013 11:21 Plexa wrote: GGs! Can't wait for WCS 2014.
Only prob with that gif is that it was when Jaedong took a match. ;/
On November 10 2013 12:07 SnuggleZhenya wrote: PvZ is just a terrible matchup for spectator experience in my opinion.
Why because several really good Protoss players won by a convincing score in the finals? Look guys like Dear and sHy are doing some really special things with the race. Heck a lot of those games weren't even lopsided.
Jaedong getting 2nd place is the most perfect end for this year :D
On a serious note though Jaedong was doing crazy good in his game vs Maru and Dear .. That it makes life the supposed king of lings in sc2 look like a kid after the dong .. damn .. he should be number 1/2 in power rank.
Was heartbroken that JD lost, but people really didn't pay sOs the respect he deserves as the champ at BlizzCon. So many people wouldn't cheer for anyone but JD. Really, the crowd was so lame for him, made me sad. The hardcore people in the front cheered, but all the people around the back and sides just sat there... D:
I'm a bit surprised by a lot of these people actually. I think this was a GREAT final! sOs played absolutely brilliantly, and his strategies and little tactics were simply OFF THE CHAIN. Would it be a stretch to say he played maybe the smartest series of Starcraft we've seen in 2013? Definitely one of my favorite Protosses now, although I always thought he was really cool even after he beat jjakji in Code A T_T
On November 10 2013 12:20 Nuclease wrote: Was heartbroken that JD lost, but people really didn't pay sOs the respect he deserves as the champ at BlizzCon. So many people wouldn't cheer for anyone but JD. Really, the crowd was so lame for him, made me sad. The hardcore people in the front cheered, but all the people around the back and sides just sat there... D:
there are a lot of BW hardcore fans buddy that want the dong to win ... and seeing him in the wcs grand finals do crazy good that makes life look like a bronze player .. people must be hyped for him to win .. but to be taken out by sOs where most people dont see him winning thats not surprising .. he was taking out championship caliber players .. sOs played well due to preparation ..
^ Is there a way to view VODS for the hearthstone innkeeper's invitationals?
On topic: Although I wanted JD to win, sos really outplayed him this time so I don't really have anything to say... JD has been doing great anyway, considering the opponents he had to get through. Gratz to both JD and SOS.
On November 10 2013 12:29 Nopeudon wrote: ^ Is there a way to view VODS for the hearthstone innkeeper's invitationals?
On topic: Although I wanted JD to win, sos really outplayed him this time so I don't really have anything to say... JD has been doing great anyway, considering the opponents he had to get through. Gratz to both JD and SOS.
On November 10 2013 12:20 Nuclease wrote: Was heartbroken that JD lost, but people really didn't pay sOs the respect he deserves as the champ at BlizzCon. So many people wouldn't cheer for anyone but JD. Really, the crowd was so lame for him, made me sad. The hardcore people in the front cheered, but all the people around the back and sides just sat there... D:
I absolutely agree. Sure, they're fanboys and such, but it really sucks when the entire audience is so biased and calls the finals and the champion "lame" just because things didn't go their way.
Great article! sOs' mind games really destroyed Jaedong's play. I'm also surprised that Plexa found a picture of sOs kissing the trophy that wasn't completely destroyed by confetti.
On November 10 2013 12:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Great article! sOs' mind games really destroyed Jaedong's play. I'm also surprised that Plexa found a picture of sOs kissing the trophy that wasn't completely destroyed by confetti.
Why because several really good Protoss players won by a convincing score in the finals? Look guys like Dear and sHy are doing some really special things with the race. Heck a lot of those games weren't even lopsided.
Because a disproportionate number of PvZ games just seem lack drama. They often come down to exactly one important moment, which you can see minutes in advance, and often time the winner of that moment is pretty obvious from the spectator standpoint before it actually happens.
Compared to the much more back and forth games we see in almost every other matchup, PvZ just doesn't seem to produce games which are interesting to watch. Occasionally you get one.
Why because several really good Protoss players won by a convincing score in the finals? Look guys like Dear and sHy are doing some really special things with the race. Heck a lot of those games weren't even lopsided.
Because a disproportionate number of PvZ games just seem lack drama. They often come down to exactly one important moment, which you can see minutes in advance, and often time the winner of that moment is pretty obvious from the spectator standpoint before it actually happens.
Compared to the much more back and forth games we see in almost every other matchup, PvZ just doesn't seem to produce games which are interesting to watch. Occasionally you get one.
Why because several really good Protoss players won by a convincing score in the finals? Look guys like Dear and sHy are doing some really special things with the race. Heck a lot of those games weren't even lopsided.
Because a disproportionate number of PvZ games just seem lack drama. They often come down to exactly one important moment, which you can see minutes in advance, and often time the winner of that moment is pretty obvious from the spectator standpoint before it actually happens.
Compared to the much more back and forth games we see in almost every other matchup, PvZ just doesn't seem to produce games which are interesting to watch. Occasionally you get one.
Games 1 and 3 beg to differ.
If 2 out of 5 games are interesting, that's not a point against my argument.
On November 10 2013 12:07 SnuggleZhenya wrote: PvZ is just a terrible matchup for spectator experience in my opinion.
I play terran
pvz for the last 6 months has been far and away my favorite match to watch (separate from the more frequent rooting interesting I have when my terran heroes play)
it's varied, lots of things work, nothing at all is set in stone anymore. it awesome.
Why because several really good Protoss players won by a convincing score in the finals? Look guys like Dear and sHy are doing some really special things with the race. Heck a lot of those games weren't even lopsided.
Because a disproportionate number of PvZ games just seem lack drama. They often come down to exactly one important moment, which you can see minutes in advance, and often time the winner of that moment is pretty obvious from the spectator standpoint before it actually happens.
Compared to the much more back and forth games we see in almost every other matchup, PvZ just doesn't seem to produce games which are interesting to watch. Occasionally you get one.
Games 1 and 3 beg to differ.
If 2 out of 5 games are interesting, that's not a point against my argument.
It's not an argument, it's your opinion. The new generation of protosses such as Trap, Dear, sOs and duck are all capable of pulling surprise comebacks with protoss, doing things we didn't think possible. Those "one important moment, which you can see minutes in advance" are quite rare with these players.
Then again if you think it sucks don't watch it, no one can change your opinion. But in mine it's way more interesting than TvZ in that it promotes more stylistic play and different compositions as well as openings as opposed to biomine every day.
On November 10 2013 12:22 Reborn8u wrote: Gratz to Sos, the feels for the Dong. Most importantly, you guys all missed the biggest news from Blizzcon....
Why because several really good Protoss players won by a convincing score in the finals? Look guys like Dear and sHy are doing some really special things with the race. Heck a lot of those games weren't even lopsided.
Because a disproportionate number of PvZ games just seem lack drama. They often come down to exactly one important moment, which you can see minutes in advance, and often time the winner of that moment is pretty obvious from the spectator standpoint before it actually happens.
Compared to the much more back and forth games we see in almost every other matchup, PvZ just doesn't seem to produce games which are interesting to watch. Occasionally you get one.
Games 1 and 3 beg to differ.
If 2 out of 5 games are interesting, that's not a point against my argument.
Why because several really good Protoss players won by a convincing score in the finals? Look guys like Dear and sHy are doing some really special things with the race. Heck a lot of those games weren't even lopsided.
Because a disproportionate number of PvZ games just seem lack drama. They often come down to exactly one important moment, which you can see minutes in advance, and often time the winner of that moment is pretty obvious from the spectator standpoint before it actually happens.
Compared to the much more back and forth games we see in almost every other matchup, PvZ just doesn't seem to produce games which are interesting to watch. Occasionally you get one.
Games 1 and 3 beg to differ.
If 2 out of 5 games are interesting, that's not a point against my argument.
2 out of 5 games is not sufficient? You must really hate the game then.
Why because several really good Protoss players won by a convincing score in the finals? Look guys like Dear and sHy are doing some really special things with the race. Heck a lot of those games weren't even lopsided.
Because a disproportionate number of PvZ games just seem lack drama. They often come down to exactly one important moment, which you can see minutes in advance, and often time the winner of that moment is pretty obvious from the spectator standpoint before it actually happens.
Compared to the much more back and forth games we see in almost every other matchup, PvZ just doesn't seem to produce games which are interesting to watch. Occasionally you get one.
Games 1 and 3 beg to differ.
If 2 out of 5 games are interesting, that's not a point against my argument.
Cause timing attacks and all-ins only happen in PvZ ... right ...
Did anyone predict SOS for the win?? Amazing how some of the favourites bowed out early. That being said its an amazing feat to have even represented in the top 16.
SOS FIGHTING! Can't believe some of you people are being bitchy about him winning. He played his heart out and won convincingly 4-1. I gotta say that i have been following SOS since the beginning of the year and he never ceases to surprise me with how innovative and versitile he is. In the finals he played 5 games, all with different bos, and other than that in a very large percentage of his games during the whole year, he has shows us countless new strats, building orders and timings. I can only imagine how much time and effort he puts into his practice to be able to show us all these building orders performed flawlessly.So all you antifans or JD crybabies can just go cry in a corner because the champion is here! SOS FIGHTING!
On November 10 2013 13:35 Master Blaster wrote: Did anyone predict SOS for the win?? Amazing how some of the favourites bowed out early. That being said its an amazing feat to have even represented in the top 16.
This was the winning bracket contest entry in the TL+ bracket contest (Predicted by FetTerBender who won 12 months of TL+!):
On November 10 2013 13:35 Master Blaster wrote: Did anyone predict SOS for the win?? Amazing how some of the favourites bowed out early. That being said its an amazing feat to have even represented in the top 16.
This was the winning bracket contest entry in the TL+ bracket contest (Predicted by FetTerBender who won 12 months of TL+!):
Also, Rotterdam.
Not bad, fetterbender, congratulations! This bracket was certainly filled with, if not upsets, then too-close-to-calls.
as well as sOs played, I can't help but wonder about Jaedon'g mental state. It looks like he has the yipes. For it to happen for the 5th time this year, it's definitely a mental thing, as he's so damn dominant and amazing, until the finals. Could get interesting if he has a breakthrough though.
sOs played so sick the entire event, big props to him, had a huge smile on my face after he won even though I was rooting for JD, he really brought his A-game, so impressive vs all of his opponents. Also, hope JD knows that he played incredibly well too, his series vs Dear and Maru were insane
I'm actually very happy that SoS won mainly because I like it when an underdog wins. Everyone else seemed to be cheering for "the dong" and in twitch chat people defending SoS and his play were belittled. So much enmity towards a player who beat the fan favorite. I loved it and I am now an SoS fan, its a pity people can't appreciate the game and cling to their Idols. I'm an MVP fan and that was brutal to watch but he was outplayed so I can't feel angry about it. All in all I'm not an SoS fan as a result of WCS, but I do appreciate the games he played, and how he won.
Oh man, I had to leave just before Jaedong vs sOs started. Artosis was firmly predicting a Jaedong victory so I guess I shouldn't be too shocked. Still, some of those games vs Maru and Dear were works of art and I had high hopes for him. Well played, grats to sOs on the championship, and grats to Jaedong for becoming the most-winning pro gamer ever.
On November 10 2013 11:46 Qwyn wrote: The most disappointing and - lame - ending to a tourney I've seen all year. sOs added to my player hit list.
What? Underdogs aren't allowed to score upset wins anymore? By your logic, trophies should be handed out to the favourites like JD, Inno, Soulkey etc. without them even going on to the stage to fight for them then. In all honesty, JD does deserve at least a trophy this year, but that doesn't the hardwork of others should be overlooked. JD still have his godly APM/micro/macro, just need to hold his nerves better next time.
On November 10 2013 14:39 tdt wrote: If jaedong "deserves" a trophy so does MC who had plenty of 2nds too. Naw men you only deserve if you actually win.
MC got 2 GSLs when 4 - gate was imba and Blizzard were throwing a lot of money at the relative newbies of the game back then . He can't win today when better players are playing and the game is more balanced .
While in Jaedong's case is just a matter of time , because he is improving a lot everytime he plays and actually gets to the finals of big tournaments .
Well, maybe deserved is not the correct word for it. Not a fan of JD, but it's really heartbreaking to see a player coming up short time and time again. However, for many fans, anybody winning against JD in the finals is by default, undeserved, which IMO is unwarranted.
On November 10 2013 14:39 tdt wrote: If jaedong "deserves" a trophy so does MC who had plenty of 2nds too. Naw men you only deserve if you actually win.
MC got 2 GSLs when 4 - gate was imba and Blizzard were throwing a lot of money at the relative newbies of the game back then . He can't win today when better players are playing and the game is more balanced .
While in Jaedong's case is just a matter of time , because he is improving a lot everytime he plays and actually gets to the finals of big tournaments .
I guess that's why MC was even in this tournament. Because of his inability to win.
It was 15 players who were doing well this year. And MC. Who must have gotten here because he just got last place in so many tournaments that the points just added up.
Geez I've seen some silly posts, but saying MC was only good because of the 4 gate is like saying Mvp was only good because of the 11/11 rax.
On November 10 2013 14:39 tdt wrote: If jaedong "deserves" a trophy so does MC who had plenty of 2nds too. Naw men you only deserve if you actually win.
MC got 2 GSLs when 4 - gate was imba and Blizzard were throwing a lot of money at the relative newbies of the game back then . He can't win today when better players are playing and the game is more balanced .
While in Jaedong's case is just a matter of time , because he is improving a lot everytime he plays and actually gets to the finals of big tournaments .
You do realize MC made the WCS Euro finals the last two seasons in a row right?
Anyway, great series by sOs. I love the way he plays PvT, but his PvZ is really solid too.
All respect due to sOs for winning the finals, but like many others I'm also super disappointed JD didn't win.
And not just for all the reasons people have already mentioned - what really stings is that Jaedong looked SO good this tournament. Previous losses (Specifically to Bomber, to Polt, and to Byul) - he definitely didn't play his best, made poor decisions, and generally didn't deserve the wins. This tournament, including most of game 1 versus sOs, he looked freakin' PHENOMENAL and I was so sure he would win.
And also as a zerg player myself it stings that some of his losses were due to seemingly lame toss stuff like cannon rushes and two base immortal timings (runs off in tears...u dunt play the game right mann!). Though I don't mean to lessen those sOs wins in the slightest - they're part of competitive play. And even more, it would have been *stupid* on sOs' part to try to go toe-to-toe with The Tyrant in mechanics, macro, army control every single game - he truly was the smarter player in that respect.
But finally I will say that imho NO map should have a space behind a base that can be walled off with just TWO pylons. And that makes me cry salty fanboy tears
On November 10 2013 15:10 Frogstomp wrote: All respect due to sOs for winning the finals, but like many others I'm also super disappointed JD didn't win.
And not just for all the reasons people have already mentioned - what really stings is that Jaedong looked SO good this tournament. Previous losses (Specifically to Bomber, to Polt, and to Byul) - he definitely didn't play his best, made poor decisions, and generally didn't deserve the wins. This tournament, including most of game 1 versus sOs, he looked freakin' PHENOMENAL and I was so sure he would win.
And also as a zerg player myself it stings that some of his losses were due to seemingly lame toss stuff like cannon rushes and two base immortal timings (runs off in tears...u dunt play the game right mann!). Though I don't mean to lessen those sOs wins in the slightest - they're part of competitive play. And even more, it would have been *stupid* on sOs' part to try to go toe-to-toe with The Tyrant in mechanics, macro, army control every single game - he truly was the smarter player in that respect.
But finally I will say that imho NO map should have a space behind a base that can be walled off with just TWO pylons. And that makes me cry salty fanboy tears
To be fair, JD beat Maru using 10 pool, bling bust, roach bane (which gave him a big advantage in game 4).
Everybody expected Jaedong to win it all then came from nowhere, sOs steals the trophy.It would have been JD's greatest achievement in his career. Winning Blizzcon is like MSL, OSL GSL WCG compiled as one.His vs P is like his BW days, fearsome.
On November 10 2013 15:31 elmerpogs wrote: Everybody expected Jaedong to win it all then came from nowhere, sOs steals the trophy.It would have been JD's greatest achievement in his career. Winning Blizzcon is like MSL, OSL GSL WCG compiled as one.His vs P is like his BW days, fearsome.
sOs didn't steal anything. As much as we don't like it and as much we wanted JD to win, sOs did what it took to win and you can't fault him for that.
1, He basically threw away a won game by playing lazy/bad. He went ultras, no reason to go ultras. No reason to send those 4 ultra to finish the bruised nexus either, 2 of them didn't even DO ANYTHING, they just died. He could have sent 25 lings, or 8 mutas, or anything other that the ultras there. And then he decided to base trade and hope to remax on muta, even though there was nothing in the base to kill the ultra army so he could remax muta. What a poor gameplan.
2, How could you not notice he is going forge/nexus openings and do some early pool builds. 7pool works great even if you don't outright win.
3, Why doesn't he EVER scout all the bases. As a casual gamer even I send my fresh lords or random lings to all the empty bases after 15 minutes. What the fuck man.
To sum it all up, JD lacks in scouting and decision making. Work on it or you will forever fill the lost duty of Yellow and Stork as the silver miner.
Really, SOS is good but his play isn't all that overwhelming or technical. He just BO countered and took advantage of JDs weaknesses. Once a player has those taken away, he beats SOS.
On November 10 2013 11:59 TJ31 wrote: Great tournament overall with terrible final series. I can only hope sOs is the 2nd Sniper (i.e. I won't see him winning anything ever again). JD vs sOs rematch at DH Winter maybe?
On November 10 2013 15:41 dgwow wrote: Question: What was the max viewer number for the finals? I missed the last day of games, predicted something like 130k
I believe it was 130k-140k on the twitch stream and then I am not sure if we know how many were watching on the Blizzard stream
On November 10 2013 15:10 Frogstomp wrote: All respect due to sOs for winning the finals, but like many others I'm also super disappointed JD didn't win.
And not just for all the reasons people have already mentioned - what really stings is that Jaedong looked SO good this tournament. Previous losses (Specifically to Bomber, to Polt, and to Byul) - he definitely didn't play his best, made poor decisions, and generally didn't deserve the wins. This tournament, including most of game 1 versus sOs, he looked freakin' PHENOMENAL and I was so sure he would win.
And also as a zerg player myself it stings that some of his losses were due to seemingly lame toss stuff like cannon rushes and two base immortal timings (runs off in tears...u dunt play the game right mann!). Though I don't mean to lessen those sOs wins in the slightest - they're part of competitive play. And even more, it would have been *stupid* on sOs' part to try to go toe-to-toe with The Tyrant in mechanics, macro, army control every single game - he truly was the smarter player in that respect.
But finally I will say that imho NO map should have a space behind a base that can be walled off with just TWO pylons. And that makes me cry salty fanboy tears
To be fair, JD beat Maru using 10 pool, bling bust, roach bane (which gave him a big advantage in game 4).
This is true, but an unfair characterization. In game 2, jaedong surrounds & kills the second reaper with 4 slow lings and proceeds to delay Maru's CC for a significant amount of time - delaying Maru's production upswing. The baneling bust is a direct response to this, not a blind all-in.
For the roach bane, it was also a response to the fact that Maru went for the double factory blue-flame hellion opening (which JD scouted with quick ovie speed) - and did 0 damage. Also, this wasn't "the" roach-bane all-in, which needs to kill the other player; it was an aggressive attack meant to deny Maru's third and prevent him from catching up from his earlier failed attack.
As to the 10-pool, just don't freaking go command center first on the low ground on a 2-player map. Maru could still have gone CC first on the high-ground and Jaedong would have been in a much worse position. 10 Pool is a great mind-gamey way to open up a series but isn't so all-in as to have lost the game for Jaedong had it not worked out.
sOs's plays were also brilliant, but in very different ways. Cannon rushing game-1 very smart (in the same way that JD's 10 pool was smart for its bo7 mind-game potential), rushing game 2 very ballsy (and again, I don't think there should be spots where 2 pylons can wall off a cannon, but then again perhaps JD should have known about that spot and put a drone patrolling there). Game 3 hidden base very risky but even that advantage wasn't enough to stand up to JD's mechanics. Game 4, strong, well-thought out 2-base timing that JD scouted and could-have-should-have responded to. Game 5 JD mentally crushed and gets owned by hidden pylon and standard followup pressure. All very smart plays by sOs, but so many were a-priori, hope-and-pray sort of plays. The brilliance lies in his understanding of the meta, and also of Jaedong's style (coupled of course with the great control and execution necessary to be a world-class protoss).
I personally don't find these types of plays as beautiful as the ones I described for JD vs Maru, but again I'm predisposed as a zerg player to this reactive type of strategy & don't mean to take anything away from sOs.
On November 10 2013 15:37 MarlieChurphy wrote: 3 things that bothered me about JD's play:
1, He basically threw away a won game by playing lazy/bad. He went ultras, no reason to go ultras. No reason to send those 4 ultra to finish the bruised nexus either, 2 of them didn't even DO ANYTHING, they just died. He could have sent 25 lings, or 8 mutas, or anything other that the ultras there. And then he decided to base trade and hope to remax on muta, even though there was nothing in the base to kill the ultra army so he could remax muta. What a poor gameplan.
2, How could you not notice he is going forge/nexus openings and do some early pool builds. 7pool works great even if you don't outright win.
3, Why doesn't he EVER scout all the bases. As a casual gamer even I send my fresh lords or random lings to all the empty bases after 15 minutes. What the fuck man.
To sum it all up, JD lacks in scouting and decision making. Work on it or you will forever fill the lost duty of Yellow and Stork as the silver miner.
Really, SOS is good but his play isn't all that overwhelming or technical. He just BO countered and took advantage of JDs weaknesses. Once a player has those taken away, he beats SOS.
even progamers make mistake buddy .. even the greatest ones ..
On November 10 2013 11:46 Qwyn wrote: The most disappointing and - lame - ending to a tourney I've seen all year. sOs added to my player hit list.
What? Underdogs aren't allowed to score upset wins anymore? By your logic, trophies should be handed out to the favourites like JD, Inno, Soulkey etc. without them even going on to the stage to fight for them then. In all honesty, JD does deserve at least a trophy this year, but that doesn't the hardwork of others should be overlooked. JD still have his godly APM/micro/macro, just need to hold his nerves better next time.
the only aspect sOs is the underdog coming to this series is fans' favoritism
On November 10 2013 11:46 Qwyn wrote: The most disappointing and - lame - ending to a tourney I've seen all year. sOs added to my player hit list.
What? Underdogs aren't allowed to score upset wins anymore? By your logic, trophies should be handed out to the favourites like JD, Inno, Soulkey etc. without them even going on to the stage to fight for them then. In all honesty, JD does deserve at least a trophy this year, but that doesn't the hardwork of others should be overlooked. JD still have his godly APM/micro/macro, just need to hold his nerves better next time.
the only aspect sOs is the underdog coming to this series is fans' favoritism
What does that even mean.
I will continue to be a fan because that is what this game needs. And because I am such a passionate fan - yes. I will NOT forgive sOs, I will NOT forgive Protoss, and this has only strengthened my desire to see the Tyrant win completely and utterly.
No one entering this tourney was an "underdog." But that does not mean that the games were not terrible. I had more entertainment watching the games with Dear and could respect his play even when Jaedong was losing. Of course, this is all objective, so if you love cannon rushes, I'm sure you loved this final.
On November 10 2013 11:46 Qwyn wrote: The most disappointing and - lame - ending to a tourney I've seen all year. sOs added to my player hit list.
What? Underdogs aren't allowed to score upset wins anymore? By your logic, trophies should be handed out to the favourites like JD, Inno, Soulkey etc. without them even going on to the stage to fight for them then. In all honesty, JD does deserve at least a trophy this year, but that doesn't the hardwork of others should be overlooked. JD still have his godly APM/micro/macro, just need to hold his nerves better next time.
the only aspect sOs is the underdog coming to this series is fans' favoritism
What does that even mean.
I will continue to be a fan because that is what this game needs. And because I am such a passionate fan - yes. I will NOT forgive sOs, I will NOT forgive Protoss, and this has only strengthened my desire to see the Tyrant win completely and utterly.
No one entering this tourney was an "underdog." But that does not mean that the games were not terrible. I had more entertainment watching the games with Dear and could respect his play even when Jaedong was losing. Of course, this is all objective, so if you love cannon rushes, I'm sure you loved this final.
Sounds like sOs ruined your tournament the same way that JD ruined mine (by cheesing out Maru).
On November 10 2013 11:46 Qwyn wrote: The most disappointing and - lame - ending to a tourney I've seen all year. sOs added to my player hit list.
What? Underdogs aren't allowed to score upset wins anymore? By your logic, trophies should be handed out to the favourites like JD, Inno, Soulkey etc. without them even going on to the stage to fight for them then. In all honesty, JD does deserve at least a trophy this year, but that doesn't the hardwork of others should be overlooked. JD still have his godly APM/micro/macro, just need to hold his nerves better next time.
the only aspect sOs is the underdog coming to this series is fans' favoritism
What does that even mean.
I will continue to be a fan because that is what this game needs. And because I am such a passionate fan - yes. I will NOT forgive sOs, I will NOT forgive Protoss, and this has only strengthened my desire to see the Tyrant win completely and utterly.
No one entering this tourney was an "underdog." But that does not mean that the games were not terrible. I had more entertainment watching the games with Dear and could respect his play even when Jaedong was losing. Of course, this is all objective, so if you love cannon rushes, I'm sure you loved this final.
It means people saw JD as favorite mostly because they're his fans and sos isn't nearly as famous, not because he's that much better than sos. kinda weird you whine about cannon rushes when jaedong cheesed at least 1 game in like every series. ur post is anything but objective.
Like everyone else I was pulling for Jaedong but if anyone else deserves this as much it's sOs. This guy has probably been the single most innovative force in sc2 over the last year...Tasteless often gets carried away with the hyperbole but today he was absolutely right to point out that sOs has changed the metagame. Some who don't know what they're talking about criticize sOs as a "faceless Korean" but he's absolutely the opposite: maybe he's not the most charismatic on stage, but when he gets in the booth, his charisma and his personality show through in his eccentric and brilliant playstyle. While everyone else is using the same mapped out build orders and playing the game off a predetermined script, sOs is always surprising us, and his opponents, with new lines of play and new strategies. JD winning today would've been the fairytale ending but sOs 100% earned the trophy, not just for his achievements of the last two days but for the last year.
On November 10 2013 11:46 Qwyn wrote: The most disappointing and - lame - ending to a tourney I've seen all year. sOs added to my player hit list.
What? Underdogs aren't allowed to score upset wins anymore? By your logic, trophies should be handed out to the favourites like JD, Inno, Soulkey etc. without them even going on to the stage to fight for them then. In all honesty, JD does deserve at least a trophy this year, but that doesn't the hardwork of others should be overlooked. JD still have his godly APM/micro/macro, just need to hold his nerves better next time.
the only aspect sOs is the underdog coming to this series is fans' favoritism
What does that even mean.
I will continue to be a fan because that is what this game needs. And because I am such a passionate fan - yes. I will NOT forgive sOs, I will NOT forgive Protoss, and this has only strengthened my desire to see the Tyrant win completely and utterly.
No one entering this tourney was an "underdog." But that does not mean that the games were not terrible. I had more entertainment watching the games with Dear and could respect his play even when Jaedong was losing. Of course, this is all objective, so if you love cannon rushes, I'm sure you loved this final.
It means people saw JD as favorite mostly because they're his fans and sos isn't nearly as famous, not because he's that much better than sos. kinda weird you whine about cannon rushes when jaedong cheesed at least 1 game in like every series. ur post is anything but objective.
Read my profile if you want to understand how I feel.
I could argue about it all day but I'll refrain from doing so. I'll just say this: It should be very, VERY clear here that I am not objective NOR AM I TRYING TO BE. I am not, NOT going to be objective. I wouldn't be such a fan if I considered the position or logic of the enemy and neither am I about to compare the series play of the two.
On November 10 2013 16:41 lichter wrote: Of all the Protoss to hate, why hate the strangest wackiest most interesting one? You guys are chumps
Also I win for writing his hype bwa ha ha
Haha, true that. Unlike Rain who play the most defensive/passive style, or MC ultra-aggressive blink-stalker style, I find sOs play is more entertaining and refreshing.
sOs pulled JD left and right apart with great BO and execution, similar to how JD dismantled Maru with cheeses/all-ins, so you can't complain too much on the cheese from sOs.
sOs super deserved the win. Jaedong made so many mistakes and was outright beaten by sOs' superior mindgames.
Beating Hero, Polt, Bomber and Jaedong with none of them being able to take more than one map off him in three b05 and one bo7 speaks volumes of his ability.
I really think all his opponents underestimated his ability to surprise and confuse them. Tricks aside - he poooned this tournement and I doubt any but soulkey could have stopped him.
Congrats sOs - you carpe diemed the shit out of blizzcon!!~~
On November 10 2013 17:20 nimdil wrote: And I thought that after beating Dear no protoss can touch him. Also if Dear won it would be much more interesting storyline.
Fun fact. Out of 4 BlizzCon/WCS championships, 3 were won by protosses.
I don't see how sOs was such a huge surprise in this match up. I get he is relatively new compared to JD, but JD has a style about him that by even watching just this tourney you'd see how he likes to play and where he gets uncomfortable. Don't get me wrong, I think JD is a fantastic player and I rooted for him in this tourney. However, maybe this is a case of not only sOs playing out of his mind, but also how being so well known actually hurt JD? I know it's a lot but perhaps a DH rematch?
Great tourney overall though, well done and congrats to sOs as well as all the players who were there!!
On November 10 2013 17:20 nimdil wrote: And I thought that after beating Dear no protoss can touch him. Also if Dear won it would be much more interesting storyline.
Fun fact. Out of 4 BlizzCon/WCS championships, 3 were won by protosses.
DONG officially cursed.
I don't seem to remember Innovation or Bomber playing toss.. hmmm I guess my memories are failing me.
On November 10 2013 17:20 nimdil wrote: And I thought that after beating Dear no protoss can touch him. Also if Dear won it would be much more interesting storyline.
Fun fact. Out of 4 BlizzCon/WCS championships, 3 were won by protosses.
DONG officially cursed.
I don't seem to remember Innovation or Bomber playing toss.. hmmm I guess my memories are failing me.
He's talking about the championships not the season finals. Championship winners have been Genius in 2010, Mvp in 2011, Parting in 2012, and sOs now in 2013.
On November 10 2013 17:20 nimdil wrote: And I thought that after beating Dear no protoss can touch him. Also if Dear won it would be much more interesting storyline.
Fun fact. Out of 4 BlizzCon/WCS championships, 3 were won by protosses.
DONG officially cursed.
I don't seem to remember Innovation or Bomber playing toss.. hmmm I guess my memories are failing me.
He meant blizzcons as in con 2010 (genius), 2011 (mma or mvp I don't even remember), 2012 (parting)
This was biggest tournament of SC2 all time but still there wasn't prize pool ceremony? There people could have shown support to players + get them huge checks so players wouldn't feel depressed.
sOs winning that championship is the most deserved win this year imho. He, as a player and practice partner for other pros, worked his heart out throughout the year in order to come up with new and strong styles in all matchups. Heck, even look at the way he played during the tournament or bother reading the hype-thread to understand that he creates new build orders ALL THE TIME. I find that much more enjoyable than watching the same style over and over and over again like it happens with basically every other player in that tournament.
You'd rather watch someone win with the same build order every single time like parting did with his soultrain last year? And then complain that the game has become stale and that you see the same build orders all the time, yet you flame and curse and talk down the guy who does the exact opposite? That hardly makes any sense, right?
Jaedong lost because he faced builds that he never even expected. He didn't throw those games or choked hardcore or whatever, he just didn't see any of that coming and that is due to how well sOs understands the game and the matchup. He controlled most of those games from start to finish and game 2 is a prime example of that. He beat the other 3 opponents rather convincingly aswell and it did look like he was just a step ahead of everyone else. You don't win 4 Bo5+ series in all matchups against the likes of HerO, Polt, Bomber and Jaedong by sheer luck but by simply being the better player. Well deserved win for sOs who was the most important player for the protoss race this year.
Such a pity that everyone was so biased for Jaedong, the LR thread and the audience was sooo disgusting and unfair...
I don't call the finals lame because JD lost. I call them lame because of the way he lost. If you guys prefer to watch games where the winner is decided by whether or not his build gets scouted, then that's fine. I on the other hand prefer games like game 4 of JD vs Maru where games are decided more by tactics and less by strategy.
Wrong, in Game 4 of JD vs Maru, Maru is caught offguard by roach/ling bust by JD which set him back a lot in the early game. After that, it's just fantastic micro from the Prime Terran that keep him in the game, with JD slowly choking life out of Maru with his collosal amount of bases.
Game 2 of the finals was absolutely beautiful dismantling by SoS. While I admit that JD winning would have caused a huge uproar from the crowd and fan boys, it would be naive to downplay SoS' intelligent game play.
On November 10 2013 12:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Great article! sOs' mind games really destroyed Jaedong's play. I'm also surprised that Plexa found a picture of sOs kissing the trophy that wasn't completely destroyed by confetti.
Before the series started I was like - JD - if you win this, then the person you should thank the most is sOs himself.. The guy literally crushed your worst opponents - i.e. - Polt and Bomber to which you lost 4:0 already.. And was like - if now isn't the time, then it won't come ever.. Like - all the worst opponents from the other side of the bracket had fallen down already..
=========================================================== As for the series itself: --> TBH would've been much better series if JD took game 1.. But he seemed to lack determination in that one
I mean - he made like 15 Ultras that were "cruising" outside of the 3 sOs's bases on Akilon..
Now - I know that we knew that sOs had nothing good vs Ultras --> no Voidrays and no Immortals, and JD didn't.. But JD was just "taking a stroll" at sOs's front gate without even trying to bust the wall-off of the natural.. Even if JD lost all the Ultras there (which sure he wouldn't), JD had like 3k/3k bank behind to remax and seal the deal..
Instead what happened is - we just saw Warp-prism harass at the back that JD couldn't deal with cause he had 15 Ultras at the front, thus no supply to defend (unless saccing some of the Ultras, which he did - he sent like 5-6 Ultras to take out the 3rd in order to have free supply to defend back home).. But after that at that point - sOs had some Archons - like 5-6 of them already to defend..
And even then JD could've fought - he would've lost his Ultras but so would all sOs's army (except the Air units) die..
But NO - JD waited even longer till we saw JD lose a "base-trade" to a perfect Protoss army which he was afraid to face and lose with 3k/3k in the bank due to not having larva cause sOs smartly didn't just kill the Hatches, but the Larva as well.. ===========================================================
And YES - JD was far too greedy most of the time to stop those attacks - like for example - in G2 - I was all the time like - please JD 1 Spine costs 100 min and 1 Drone.. Please make 2, or at least 1 of those.. AND HE DIDN'T DO ANY.. What was even more is that HE SCOUTED THOSE GATES.. Not a single spine in main after 2 pylon 2 Cannon in natural for 10 minutes and 5-6 Gates in production scouted.. Not a single one.. Directly going for the Mutas instead, which isn't a bad thing if you skip Roaches, but if he made like 2 Spines he wouldnt've lost drones and wouldn't have to make tons of Lings to defend vs +1 Zealots, Or at least those could've bought the time for Mutalisks to come out to defend..
=========================================================== So - overall games 2 & 4 went bad.. The other games in the series were good to watch as well as good to remember.. Though JD could've done much better in game 1 IMO.. I also think that that G1 must've shaken (or at least part of) JD's confidence..
Overall good "series", but kinda lasted short-ish (at least for me).. Would've liked a closer series, but JD not taking game 1 is the direct reason for that though..
I think knowing when to pull out the cheese is the sign of intelligence, and this game isn't just about mechanics, it's a real time strategy game. Strategy includes all builds you can use.
On November 10 2013 11:46 Qwyn wrote: The most disappointing and - lame - ending to a tourney I've seen all year. sOs added to my player hit list.
What? Underdogs aren't allowed to score upset wins anymore? By your logic, trophies should be handed out to the favourites like JD, Inno, Soulkey etc. without them even going on to the stage to fight for them then. In all honesty, JD does deserve at least a trophy this year, but that doesn't the hardwork of others should be overlooked. JD still have his godly APM/micro/macro, just need to hold his nerves better next time.
the only aspect sOs is the underdog coming to this series is fans' favoritism
What does that even mean.
I will continue to be a fan because that is what this game needs. And because I am such a passionate fan - yes. I will NOT forgive sOs, I will NOT forgive Protoss, and this has only strengthened my desire to see the Tyrant win completely and utterly.
No one entering this tourney was an "underdog." But that does not mean that the games were not terrible. I had more entertainment watching the games with Dear and could respect his play even when Jaedong was losing. Of course, this is all objective, so if you love cannon rushes, I'm sure you loved this final.
It means people saw JD as favorite mostly because they're his fans and sos isn't nearly as famous, not because he's that much better than sos. kinda weird you whine about cannon rushes when jaedong cheesed at least 1 game in like every series. ur post is anything but objective.
Read my profile if you want to understand how I feel.
I could argue about it all day but I'll refrain from doing so. I'll just say this: It should be very, VERY clear here that I am not objective NOR AM I TRYING TO BE. I am not, NOT going to be objective. I wouldn't be such a fan if I considered the position or logic of the enemy and neither am I about to compare the series play of the two.
I'm not going to be objective either. Jaedong added to my hitlist for beating Dear and ruining the tournament for me. He used cheese to kill Maru as well- ruining it for many terrans and prime fans. Man, JD is such a bastard
Starcraft is a strategy game, sOs using ingenius strategies to win isn't gimmicky... during the entire series, he went for one all-in, the rest of the games were just filled with brilliant pressure and mind-gaming. Sure, the immortal build depended on it being scouted or not, but sOs strength is his ability to send one type of signals to his opponent, making him feel comfortable and then doing the opposite of what he expects, executing this with epic micro and mechanics.
What differentiates sOs from Dear is that he doesn't rely on reaching that huge army and beating down enemies through sheer strength and army control, rather than getting them uncomfortable and forcing them to make mistakes. Personally, I love watching this style because it's as far as you can get from the deathball style of protoss. I really hope this tournament means that sOs has reinvented the protoss race once more, because this was a brilliant display of awesomeness!
On November 10 2013 18:58 Zackeva wrote: Starcraft is a strategy game, sOs using ingenius strategies to win isn't gimmicky... during the entire series, he went for one all-in, the rest of the games were just filled with brilliant pressure and mind-gaming. Sure, the immortal build depended on it being scouted or not, but sOs strength is his ability to send one type of signals to his opponent, making him feel comfortable and then doing the opposite of what he expects, executing this with epic micro and mechanics.
What differentiates sOs from Dear is that he doesn't rely on reaching that huge army and beating down enemies through sheer strength and army control, rather than getting them uncomfortable and forcing them to make mistakes. Personally, I love watching this style because it's as far as you can get from the deathball style of protoss. I really hope this tournament means that sOs has reinvented the protoss race once more, because this was a brilliant display of awesomeness!
Actually he harasses with suicidal Zealots, but even he tries to hit the average Protoss 200/200 timing push...
Really hoped for JD to win after all Terrans were out, but in sOs we have another good example of Protosses using their potential well... Which will hopefully soon result in a nerf to something about P...
I have a bias against Kespa players, but watching sOs play made me really happy that he won. He plays a game that is genuinely interesting for all spectators to watch. I much prefer viewing his style of small early battles won with control and understanding of the other player over the macro and clash armies over and over.
I feel this is the right guy to keep SC2 interesting for fans of all levels, and not just masters/diamond players who love standard to be played over and over.
This is why BW fans cheered so hard when Fantasy beat Stork in the OSL with 3 unorthodox anti-standard snipe builds
On November 10 2013 18:58 Zackeva wrote: Starcraft is a strategy game, sOs using ingenius strategies to win isn't gimmicky... during the entire series, he went for one all-in, the rest of the games were just filled with brilliant pressure and mind-gaming. Sure, the immortal build depended on it being scouted or not, but sOs strength is his ability to send one type of signals to his opponent, making him feel comfortable and then doing the opposite of what he expects, executing this with epic micro and mechanics.
What differentiates sOs from Dear is that he doesn't rely on reaching that huge army and beating down enemies through sheer strength and army control, rather than getting them uncomfortable and forcing them to make mistakes. Personally, I love watching this style because it's as far as you can get from the deathball style of protoss. I really hope this tournament means that sOs has reinvented the protoss race once more, because this was a brilliant display of awesomeness!
Actually he harasses with suicidal Zealots, but even he tries to hit the average Protoss 200/200 timing push...
Really hoped for JD to win after all Terrans were out, but in sOs we have another good example of Protosses using their potential well... Which will hopefully soon result in a nerf to something about P...
Yay let's be an idiot and do thinly disguised balance whine.
He doesn't only harass with suicidal zealots. That's a TACTIC. Selecting your build is STRATEGY, which sOs is very good at doing. In case you haven't noticed, the builds he selects wins him games more often than not.
On November 10 2013 13:35 Master Blaster wrote: Did anyone predict SOS for the win?? Amazing how some of the favourites bowed out early. That being said its an amazing feat to have even represented in the top 16.
There were 37 votes for him in the Day 1 thread (1%). I also believe Rotterdam predicted him to win or at least make the final
On November 10 2013 18:26 KivTM wrote: I don't call the finals lame because JD lost. I call them lame because of the way he lost. If you guys prefer to watch games where the winner is decided by whether or not his build gets scouted, then that's fine. I on the other hand prefer games like game 4 of JD vs Maru where games are decided more by tactics and less by strategy.
SoS beat JD strategically and tactically. It wasn't decided by whether a build gets scouted or not.
Game 1 was JD's to lose. That cannon rush was inconsequential. He should have kept denying the 4th instead of letting SoS mass up. That Utra switch should have killed SoS but I think JD was dead set on faking ultras, letting Sos overcommit on ultra counters and then switching quickly to mutas. There was a point where SoS wasn't actually ready for Ultras but ready for mutas.
Game 2, JD spotted the cannon rush so he wasn't caught off guard, he just didn't respond to it correctly. Even after that the response to go corrupters and zerglings vs zealot + phoenix wasn't correct either.
Game 3, not scouting the hidden expansion could have been a problem but JD won anyway.
Game 4, robo was scouted. But the fact that the warp prism instead of an immortal came out confused the hell out of JD. Again JD has scouted what was going on, he just didn't respond correctly.
Game 5, gateway opening for the first time. JD was on auto pilot and played as if it was against a forge or fast nexus expand. He had 2 zerglings at the front of Sos's base and he still let the probe through. Poor response to the gateway expand and poor map awareness. Zealots wreak havoc, that's not so bad. What was just poor play was the fact that JD didn't search for that hidden pylon after he had cleared the zealots.
In Maru vs JD, they both tried to outsmart each other but neither managed to do so. At every stage, they both knew what the correct response should be. But in SoS vs JD, JD just had no answer. It's like a chess program. A program may appear smart but all it actually does is look through it's database to find the appropriate response. There's no clever thinking involved, it's just following a flow chart. That's the problem with JD, he looked through his database, found no entry and could not formulate a response. SoS beat the JD program.
That's why I think people should appreciate SoS's play. He's the guy with the real "human" intelligence. Out of all the players playing in SC2 right now, if you were to nominate one of them to go against a really smart AI equipped with databases filled with replays of top players, it has to be SoS. The fact that he manages to find something different when people think that the game is at the stage where everything has been figured out is amazing.
Can we just talk about how great the production value for this tournament was? Aside from the mic feedback problem on day 1 it felt like something you would see on ESPN or something. Really cool stuff. Like the graphics they threw up on the screen with the pictures of the casters who were talking at the time. Just a bunch of little stuff like that that made it look super polished.
I have to watch the series between Jaedong vs Dear again. Jaedong was not "supposed" to win it. Besides Dear not choosing the best possible builds (like that blink build on the last map. Why you would not go for a macro game on Akilon being the best player in the world at the moment as protoss?), I think that Jaedong played the best ZvP of his SC2 carrer there.
But Against sOs he lost at least 2 maps that he "should" had won. The first one was Akilon. He picked the worst army composition to attack a turtle protoss and just made the wrong decisions during the entire match. And the second one was Polar Night. That build by sOs is not particular powerful (if scouted) and Jaedong scouted the absence of gas on the main early enough to prepare for it. He played greedy and because of that lost it.
On November 10 2013 18:26 KivTM wrote: I don't call the finals lame because JD lost. I call them lame because of the way he lost. If you guys prefer to watch games where the winner is decided by whether or not his build gets scouted, then that's fine. I on the other hand prefer games like game 4 of JD vs Maru where games are decided more by tactics and less by strategy.
SoS beat JD strategically and tactically. It wasn't decided by whether a build gets scouted or not.
Game 1 was JD's to lose. That cannon rush was inconsequential. He should have kept denying the 4th instead of letting SoS mass up. That Utra switch should have killed SoS but I think JD was dead set on faking ultras, letting Sos overcommit on ultra counters and then switching quickly to mutas. There was a point where SoS wasn't actually ready for Ultras but ready for mutas.
Game 2, JD spotted the cannon rush so he wasn't caught off guard, he just didn't respond to it correctly. Even after that the response to go corrupters and zerglings vs zealot + phoenix wasn't correct either.
Game 3, not scouting the hidden expansion could have been a problem but JD won anyway.
Game 4, robo was scouted. But the fact that the warp prism instead of an immortal came out confused the hell out of JD. Again JD has scouted what was going on, he just didn't respond correctly.
Game 5, gateway opening for the first time. JD was on auto pilot and played as if it was against a forge or fast nexus expand. He had 2 zerglings at the front of Sos's base and he still let the probe through. Poor response to the gateway expand and poor map awareness. Zealots wreak havoc, that's not so bad. What was just poor play was the fact that JD didn't search for that hidden pylon after he had cleared the zealots.
In Maru vs JD, they both tried to outsmart each other but neither managed to do so. At every stage, they both knew what the correct response should be. But in SoS vs JD, JD just had no answer. It's like a chess program. A program may appear smart but all it actually does is look through it's database to find the appropriate response. There's no clever thinking involved, it's just following a flow chart. That's the problem with JD, he looked through his database, found no entry and could not formulate a response. SoS beat the JD program.
That's why I think people should appreciate SoS's play. He's the guy with the real "human" intelligence. Out of all the players playing in SC2 right now, if you were to nominate one of them to go against a really smart AI equipped with databases filled with replays of top players, it has to be SoS. The fact that he manages to find something different when people think that the game is at the stage where everything has been figured out is amazing.
After 2 cannon rush, JD is so shaken already. Sure he won game 3. But he must have checked the replay and find out that there was a hidden expo all that time. That put such mental pressure on the player. He had to worry about scouting for proxy pylons, hidden expo. The mind is already broken. Sos can play so calm and plan the rest of the series according.
Im so disappointed in the people here on the forums that flame sOs... Saying this series was boring and such. Your really undermining the epicness of this finals. Every game was totally different. Just for context, im a zerg, and wouldnt have minded JD winning, but sOs just did the mindgames perfectly. ZvP used to be my most boring MU. Just cause of the same style every time. Now one person comes up this year and showcases every new build in excistance, from voidray zealot PvZ to templar chargelot in PvT. And you call him a boring cheeser. WTF is wrong with you guys?
Furthermore saying he stole the title. i dont know but he only beat champions on his way to the finals, with only 3-0 or 3-1. The series with bomber wasnt even close either, and not because of bomber's law, but just because sOs outplayed him hard. starting 2-2, charge And storm on derelict watcher while only have 2 zealots and a sentry? Balls of steel man. sOs didnt just beat jaedong, he beat the meta in all matchups, and not just, but he Crushed the meta.
This guy is the most deserving champion of this year, in the most appealing tournament of this year. Noone else wouldve been a better champ then sOs if you spealk about deserving it. Like it or not. sOs might've crushed all your fanboi dreams, but he is just the best player of 2013. Deal with it and give him the credit he deserves. Or do you prefer to act like a 12yo kid who's candy got taken away ? If yes. i understand why u cant deal with sOs winning cause apparently you cant seem to figure how brilliant he actually is.
On November 10 2013 18:26 KivTM wrote: I don't call the finals lame because JD lost. I call them lame because of the way he lost. If you guys prefer to watch games where the winner is decided by whether or not his build gets scouted, then that's fine. I on the other hand prefer games like game 4 of JD vs Maru where games are decided more by tactics and less by strategy.
SoS beat JD strategically and tactically. It wasn't decided by whether a build gets scouted or not.
Game 1 was JD's to lose. That cannon rush was inconsequential. He should have kept denying the 4th instead of letting SoS mass up. That Utra switch should have killed SoS but I think JD was dead set on faking ultras, letting Sos overcommit on ultra counters and then switching quickly to mutas. There was a point where SoS wasn't actually ready for Ultras but ready for mutas.
Game 2, JD spotted the cannon rush so he wasn't caught off guard, he just didn't respond to it correctly. Even after that the response to go corrupters and zerglings vs zealot + phoenix wasn't correct either.
Game 3, not scouting the hidden expansion could have been a problem but JD won anyway.
Game 4, robo was scouted. But the fact that the warp prism instead of an immortal came out confused the hell out of JD. Again JD has scouted what was going on, he just didn't respond correctly.
Game 5, gateway opening for the first time. JD was on auto pilot and played as if it was against a forge or fast nexus expand. He had 2 zerglings at the front of Sos's base and he still let the probe through. Poor response to the gateway expand and poor map awareness. Zealots wreak havoc, that's not so bad. What was just poor play was the fact that JD didn't search for that hidden pylon after he had cleared the zealots.
In Maru vs JD, they both tried to outsmart each other but neither managed to do so. At every stage, they both knew what the correct response should be. But in SoS vs JD, JD just had no answer. It's like a chess program. A program may appear smart but all it actually does is look through it's database to find the appropriate response. There's no clever thinking involved, it's just following a flow chart. That's the problem with JD, he looked through his database, found no entry and could not formulate a response. SoS beat the JD program.
That's why I think people should appreciate SoS's play. He's the guy with the real "human" intelligence. Out of all the players playing in SC2 right now, if you were to nominate one of them to go against a really smart AI equipped with databases filled with replays of top players, it has to be SoS. The fact that he manages to find something different when people think that the game is at the stage where everything has been figured out is amazing.
Yeah, would've been much better series if JD won game 1.. What ended up by "faking" (I mean come on - faking with 15 Ultras ??) Ultras is that he ended up having 90 supply "dead" and didn't have enough left to respond to the warp-prism drop in main.. rofl.. And even when sOs moved out - JD should've fought instead going for the "base race", which this time wasn't the JD's choice, but sOs's instead.. The base-race ended because JD didn't have the army to fight sOs and was actually afraid to "engage".. Funny thing is that even with that - even after saccing the Ultras he could've made 40 Mutas right after that, but he didn't and sOs smartly killed not only Hatches, but the Larva as well..
On November 10 2013 19:40 HooiFork wrote: Im so disappointed in the people here on the forums that flame sOs... Saying this series was boring and such. Your really undermining the epicness of this finals. Every game was totally different. Just for context, im a zerg, and wouldnt have minded JD winning, but sOs just did the mindgames perfectly. ZvP used to be my most boring MU. Just cause of the same style every time. Now one person comes up this year and showcases every new build in excistance, from voidray zealot PvZ to templar chargelot in PvT. And you call him a boring cheeser. WTF is wrong with you guys?
Furthermore saying he stole the title. i dont know but he only beat champions on his way to the finals, with only 3-0 or 3-1. The series with bomber wasnt even close either, and not because of bomber's law, but just because sOs outplayed him hard. starting 2-2, charge And storm on derelict watcher while only have 2 zealots and a sentry? Balls of steel man. sOs didnt just beat jaedong, he beat the meta in all matchups, and not just, but he Crushed the meta.
This guy is the most deserving champion of this year, in the most appealing tournament of this year. Noone else wouldve been a better champ then sOs if you spealk about deserving it. Like it or not. sOs might've crushed all your fanboi dreams, but he is just the best player of 2013. Deal with it and give him the credit he deserves. Or do you prefer to act like a 12yo kid who's candy got taken away ? If yes. i understand why u cant deal with sOs winning cause apparently you cant seem to figure how brilliant he actually is.
hmmm, actually Charge-Lot-Archon was invented by (believed it or not) MVPFinale - i.e. - duckdeok like 3 years ago.. Before that Templars were used only for Storm or storm-warp-ins cause of the Khaydarin amulet.. He was the first one to use Templars in PvT after Khaydarin removal the way we see them used today.. PvT hasn't changed since WoL almost at all (with the exception of Photon-overcharge and Medivac boost - i.e. - more drops - it's mostly the same)
Though I agree with the rest of it - It was sOs first that used Voidrays or at least VoidRay/Storm in PvZ instead of Colossi, which served Naniwa well..
I foresaw this problem a long time ago. jaedong was the "people's champion", but honestly the guy has done very very well and second place is still a great achievement. of course, that makes Shy the supreme master of sc2, except nobody thinks so because of the way he won. Still, there's probably no excuse to NOT expect cheese from him if you have studied him at all.
The trouble is that Shy is not a very popular player with a consistent string of results. He's probably about average in terms of fanbase. He's brilliant but irregular, and in this tournament he was the former. Of course I also think he's actually a very innovative player and deserving of the title, but that isn't really the point.
The point is that this "grand final" answered no questions. No one thinks Shy isn't unbeatable, least of all me. He doesn't have the "aura" of invincibility or the statistics that elevate him to a S-class player. In fact many people still think Dear is better than him. So what's the point of winning (other than cash goodies) if people won't even acknowledge you as the best? You will never become a legend like that.
Either people have to acknowledge him as THE BEST player of recent times (i hesitate to use the bonjwa term, but really that is what people are looking for), or we will have to find a new way of running this thing.
Wow, that was impressive play by sOs, sadly for Jeadong he was just playing better. In my opinion he should even had won game 3, but he didn't played well in that one, not scouting the mutas and having overmins almost the entire game.
On November 10 2013 20:04 shadymmj wrote: I foresaw this problem a long time ago. jaedong was the "people's champion", but honestly the guy has done very very well and second place is still a great achievement. of course, that makes Shy the supreme master of sc2, except nobody thinks so because of the way he won. Still, there's probably no excuse to NOT expect cheese from him if you have studied him at all.
The trouble is that Shy is not a very popular player with a consistent string of results. He's probably about average in terms of fanbase. He's brilliant but irregular, and in this tournament he was the former. Of course I also think he's actually a very innovative player and deserving of the title, but that isn't really the point.
The point is that this "grand final" answered no questions. No one thinks Shy isn't unbeatable, least of all me. He doesn't have the "aura" of invincibility or the statistics that elevate him to a S-class player. In fact many people still think Dear is better than him. So what's the point of winning (other than cash goodies) if people won't even acknowledge you as the best? You will never become a legend like that.
Either people have to acknowledge him as THE BEST player of recent times (i hesitate to use the bonjwa term, but really that is what people are looking for), or we will have to find a new way of running this thing.
Just going to say, that there has only ever been a small handful of champions that won and people thought of them as unbeatable at that time.
If Jaedong had won, he wouldn't be looked at as a bonjwa. Or the best.
Dear was probably the only player attending that people might have classed as unbeatable if he had won.
As with all tournaments, sos was the best today, on the day.
I'd love to meet someone who doesn't think he's a S-class player. And isn't just an incredibly biased JD fan.
On November 10 2013 19:26 MichaelDonovan wrote: Can we just talk about how great the production value for this tournament was? Aside from the mic feedback problem on day 1 it felt like something you would see on ESPN or something. Really cool stuff. Like the graphics they threw up on the screen with the pictures of the casters who were talking at the time. Just a bunch of little stuff like that that made it look super polished.
You seem to be forgetting the way the show ended by us getting no real comments by the analysts. Also I missed the whole sos - bomber match due to lag. Low mid high source had lag every 3-4 seconds. This was unacceptable. It has never happened before that severely. I noticed in the chat that there were people having the same problem. I hope Artosis does a whole show about the finals soon.
Edit: The first person view idea was nice but the resolution was disgusting - very low and stretched.
On November 10 2013 19:26 MichaelDonovan wrote: Can we just talk about how great the production value for this tournament was? Aside from the mic feedback problem on day 1 it felt like something you would see on ESPN or something. Really cool stuff. Like the graphics they threw up on the screen with the pictures of the casters who were talking at the time. Just a bunch of little stuff like that that made it look super polished.
You seem to be forgetting the way the show ended by us getting no real comments by the analysts. Also I missed the whole sos - bomber match due to lag. Low mid high source had lag every 3-4 seconds. This was unacceptable. It has never happened before that severely. I noticed in the chat that there were people having the same problem. I hope Artosis does a whole show about the finals soon.
Edit: The first person view idea was nice but the resolution was disgusting - very low and stretched.
Oh you mean the Innkeeper's Invitational finals that Artosis won?
Why because several really good Protoss players won by a convincing score in the finals? Look guys like Dear and sHy are doing some really special things with the race. Heck a lot of those games weren't even lopsided.
Because a disproportionate number of PvZ games just seem lack drama. They often come down to exactly one important moment, which you can see minutes in advance, and often time the winner of that moment is pretty obvious from the spectator standpoint before it actually happens.
Compared to the much more back and forth games we see in almost every other matchup, PvZ just doesn't seem to produce games which are interesting to watch. Occasionally you get one.
Games 1 and 3 beg to differ.
If 2 out of 5 games are interesting, that's not a point against my argument.
Cause timing attacks and all-ins only happen in PvZ ... right ...
Ladder games aside... (i once wrote down how much i get cheesed in ladder, and wrote a statistics for race or country the player comes from (asking during start of the game), which brought up very interesting insides about the "SC2 culture" that is different in every country and also about the races. Funny thing about that is, if I know the race and the origin of the player, in 90% I can tell what he/she is up to without scouting )... I am really curious how many P/T/Z games were start of by a cheese or allin, ordered by race (and defining what cheese is). It really feels like, for each race, you have to have a different mindset and one race is more "sneaky" (not saying cheesy here) then others. Thank god the end of the WoL days has passed and we don't see a Immortal allin in 2 out of 3 PvZ games, but I still hope we see more straight up-games, with constant back and forth and battling and so on... Like the good old TvZ days
sOs isn't faceless in the sense that his playstyle is generic or that he's some unknown Korean. Maybe he hasn't said anything as flamboyant as MC or been a character of note like JD, but sOs has been developing entirely new playstyles and did some amazing builds, creative attacks, etc. The finals was a showcase of that, not "Protoss cheese umg lolz." His VR/Zealot styles comes in many varieties and inspired entirely new ways of playing PvZ at the start of Hots to today.
sOs is a genius and he doesn't deserve people making up some story about him being "just another Korean."
On November 10 2013 21:05 Heartland wrote: sOs isn't faceless in the sense that his playstyle is generic or that he's some unknown Korean. Maybe he hasn't said anything as flamboyant as MC or been a character of note like JD, but sOs has been developing entirely new playstyles and did some amazing builds, creative attacks, etc. The finals was a showcase of that, not "Protoss cheese umg lolz." His VR/Zealot styles comes in many varieties and inspired entirely new ways of playing PvZ at the start of Hots to today.
sOs is a genius and he doesn't deserve people making up some story about him being "just another Korean."
sOs strategy was probably one of the best ever seen from Protoss.However he has to prove himself further in order not to remain faceless.
On November 10 2013 20:04 shadymmj wrote: I foresaw this problem a long time ago. jaedong was the "people's champion", but honestly the guy has done very very well and second place is still a great achievement. of course, that makes Shy the supreme master of sc2, except nobody thinks so because of the way he won. Still, there's probably no excuse to NOT expect cheese from him if you have studied him at all.
The trouble is that Shy is not a very popular player with a consistent string of results. He's probably about average in terms of fanbase. He's brilliant but irregular, and in this tournament he was the former. Of course I also think he's actually a very innovative player and deserving of the title, but that isn't really the point.
The point is that this "grand final" answered no questions. No one thinks Shy isn't unbeatable, least of all me. He doesn't have the "aura" of invincibility or the statistics that elevate him to a S-class player. In fact many people still think Dear is better than him. So what's the point of winning (other than cash goodies) if people won't even acknowledge you as the best? You will never become a legend like that.
Either people have to acknowledge him as THE BEST player of recent times (i hesitate to use the bonjwa term, but really that is what people are looking for), or we will have to find a new way of running this thing.
Just going to say, that there has only ever been a small handful of champions that won and people thought of them as unbeatable at that time.
If Jaedong had won, he wouldn't be looked at as a bonjwa. Or the best.
Dear was probably the only player attending that people might have classed as unbeatable if he had won.
As with all tournaments, sos was the best today, on the day.
I'd love to meet someone who doesn't think he's a S-class player. And isn't just an incredibly biased JD fan.
Yeah, that was a weird post you replied to there. Because SC2 is unique in that the perceived "best" player doesn't always win a knock out tournament? Nope...
On November 10 2013 16:41 lichter wrote: Of all the Protoss to hate, why hate the strangest wackiest most interesting one? You guys are chumps
Also I win for writing his hype bwa ha ha
Totally agreed. I don't find protoss play interesting at all with the exception of sOs. And if somebody had to take the tournament instead of Jaedong, I was hoping it would be him from the start. Didn't expect them to meet in the finals though.
I will say that his wins over Jaedong didn't highlight his style of play that won me over in the past. Take game 2, for example. Really great work with the phoenixes--even brutalizing the corrupters with them--but that cool play isn't what won the game. He could have closed it out any number of ways after the successful cannon rush.
I don't know the cannon rush thing kinda really cought JD off guard, cost him game 2 and surely had psychological effects because he also lost to it (or rather the follow-up) in game 1. Actually I couldn't care less not playing this game for months and only watching the big tourneys for entertainment, but watching JD lately made me think he is the best. Did you see the 1st person view? Man that's just unreal. If you count milliseconds he's probably faster than anyone out there. No wonder that he was sweating and breathing so hard.
Anyway, for all the time nothing has changed. Why do people build Zerglings vs Zealots? A Roach Warren costs like nothing and a few roaches could easily kill a cannon. Also you could use them to 'knock' at the Toss door and prevent them from expanding and they can deal with incoming Zealots like in game 4 much better than lings. That last game has shown once again the worst part of starcraft 2, it's fragility. The zealot immortal all-in is so strong that it wins easily if it catches the opponent off-guard. If it doesn't, you lost. You can force very short games. A minor mistake can quickly decide games, which makes it more a question of mechanics than strategy who wins. If it was a real strategic match, like eg chess that people often claim it to be, the matches wouldn't be over so quickly a lot of the time. I still believe lategame Toss is OP as there was a discussion about this forever. You cannot match the firepower of Archon/Colossus/Immortal/High Templar(Storm) + Zealots as tanks. Terran has Ghosts but Zerg is pretty fucked :/ Everyone goes baserace vs Toss is that really the intention of a good match? Sometimes Zerg overwhelms Toss but that is usually midgame when they explode in supply. Certainly the matchup is not balanced in every phase evenly.
Nontheless sos played extremely well. The cannon rush thing was kinda annoying though. They should increase the space behind the minerals to make it more expensive and less of a strong tactic.
Yeah, sOs deserved the win, though whether or not that cements his position as 'best player' is still in question. Kind of sad to see the Dong lose it like that, but oh well... I also really like the first-person-view perspectives given through the competition, thought it was a nice touch.
Question: Does anyone know if a Blizzcon interview of JD exists after his second-place finish? Curious. Thanks!
On November 10 2013 21:37 Nopeudon wrote: Yeah, sOs deserved the win, though whether or not that cements his position as 'best player' is still in question. Kind of sad to see the Dong lose it like that, but oh well... I also really like the first-person-view perspectives given through the competition, thought it was a nice touch.
Question: Does anyone know if a Blizzcon interview of JD exists after his second-place finish? Curious. Thanks!
I like how Dear put it (from Waxangel twitter) :
I think dear said it best, "I don't know about any other day, but tonight I'm the champion of the world."
On November 10 2013 20:04 shadymmj wrote: I foresaw this problem a long time ago. jaedong was the "people's champion", but honestly the guy has done very very well and second place is still a great achievement. of course, that makes Shy the supreme master of sc2, except nobody thinks so because of the way he won. Still, there's probably no excuse to NOT expect cheese from him if you have studied him at all.
The trouble is that Shy is not a very popular player with a consistent string of results. He's probably about average in terms of fanbase. He's brilliant but irregular, and in this tournament he was the former. Of course I also think he's actually a very innovative player and deserving of the title, but that isn't really the point.
The point is that this "grand final" answered no questions. No one thinks Shy isn't unbeatable, least of all me. He doesn't have the "aura" of invincibility or the statistics that elevate him to a S-class player. In fact many people still think Dear is better than him. So what's the point of winning (other than cash goodies) if people won't even acknowledge you as the best? You will never become a legend like that.
Either people have to acknowledge him as THE BEST player of recent times (i hesitate to use the bonjwa term, but really that is what people are looking for), or we will have to find a new way of running this thing.
Soo... JD baneling bust Maru 2 (or was 3 games?) isnt chesee ? If JD had won he would be the best player but since the winner is sOs he is not ?
Such a biased and whine comment, even if JD had won he still can be beat, he will not have that "aura of invincibility", he is is among the best Zergs nowadays, but i dont think he is THE best (and for the record, what the hell is the best? how can you even decide that?), tournaments are about the 2 days not who is the best in the last 2 months, sOs was the best this weekend, i mean... his worst match up was PvT and he destroyed Polt and Bomber, against HerO you could see right from the first game that he had won and JD NEVER had a chance to win the games
"So what's the point of winning (other than cash goodies) if people won't even acknowledge you as the best?"
I dont know about you but i do think he is the best, at least right now (he just won the most important SC2 tournament) and i said a long time ago, sOs is the best protoss player for quite some time, maybe not in results, but in overall
And by the way, why did JD won all his tournaments back in the day ? What was the point of him winning if people wont even acknowledge him as the best ? He had to win those tournaments, theres NO OTHER WAY to make a name for yourself if you dont do it
sOs deserved that win more than JD, why? Because he dominated him the entire match he was the better player in that night, even the game he lost, because JD took a gamble with the mutas that work, otherwise with the hidden expansion things would not go as good for JD
your problem starts off by thinking i am a whining JD fan. if you actually look at my team logo and read my post history you would have guessed that i am really a flash fan, therefore i consider myself to be impartial in this case. i am not talking about who should win or who should have won, and using what strategy. Shy won, the end.
you think he is the best now. excellent, but how many people actually think that he's the best player right now? how about recently? "maybe not in results, but in overall", i don't know what this disclaimer is supposed to mean. If you look at the thread below this one, you will see that significantly more people think that Dear is still better than Shy. Furthermore, it's not exactly, er...meaningful if you're the best for a month or two.
i guess that my main point should be that if you won a grand final, your position should not again be in dispute 1 week, 1 month, or even 3 months after. maybe we can draw parallels to the World chess championship currently going on simultaneously. whoever wins is going to be recognised as undisputed for quite a while. if you have a new champion every 1-2 months, it gets harder to become a legend and establish a large fanbase.
therefore either people should be more accepting of Shy as Sc2 champ of 2013 or something else has to change.
sOs outplayed Jaedong, with some really surprising and effective moves. I still think Jaedong's the better player though. Does this make me salty?
Edit: And this
On November 10 2013 22:02 shadymmj wrote: your problem starts off by thinking i am a whining JD fan. if you actually look at my team logo and read my post history you would have guessed that i am really a flash fan, therefore i consider myself to be impartial in this case. i am not talking about who should win or who should have won, and using what strategy. Shy won, the end.
you think he is the best now. excellent, but how many people actually think that he's the best player right now? how about recently? "maybe not in results, but in overall", i don't know what this disclaimer is supposed to mean. If you look at the thread below this one, you will see that significantly more people think that Dear is still better than Shy. Furthermore, it's not exactly, er...meaningful if you're the best for a month or two.
i guess that my main point should be that if you won a grand final, your position should not again be in dispute 1 week, 1 month, or even 3 months after. maybe we can draw parallels to the World chess championship currently going on simultaneously. whoever wins is going to be recognised as undisputed for quite a while. if you have a new champion every 1-2 months, it gets harder to become a legend and establish a large fanbase.
therefore either people should be more accepting of Shy as Sc2 champ of 2013 or something else has to change.
And I think this is very interesting. Might be unfortunate.
On November 10 2013 22:02 shadymmj wrote: your problem starts off by thinking i am a whining JD fan. if you actually look at my team logo and read my post history you would have guessed that i am really a flash fan, therefore i consider myself to be impartial in this case. i am not talking about who should win or who should have won, and using what strategy. Shy won, the end.
you think he is the best now. excellent, but how many people actually think that he's the best player right now? how about recently? "maybe not in results, but in overall", i don't know what this disclaimer is supposed to mean. If you look at the thread below this one, you will see that significantly more people think that Dear is still better than Shy. Furthermore, it's not exactly, er...meaningful if you're the best for a month or two.
i guess that my main point should be that if you won a grand final, your position should not again be in dispute 1 week, 1 month, or even 3 months after. maybe we can draw parallels to the World chess championship currently going on simultaneously. whoever wins is going to be recognised as undisputed for quite a while. if you have a new champion every 1-2 months, it gets harder to become a legend and establish a large fanbase.
therefore either people should be more accepting of Shy as Sc2 champ of 2013 or something else has to change.
Ill take a lot of great players that can beat each other in every tournament over just 1 single guy winning everything, the way you put it its that you preffer watching just 1 guy wrecking everyone (like MVP did in 2011 and MC at some point) than a A LOT of great players that given the chance can beat each other and make sc2 a more dynamic game
On November 10 2013 22:03 Ingsoc wrote: sOs outplayed Jaedong, with some really surprising and effective moves. I still think Jaedong's the better player though. Does this make me salty?
No, nothing wrong with that. sOs was the better player in that bo7, he outplayed and outsmarted him hard. I still think Jaedong would win in a bo101 pretty damn hard, but that's the weakness of Protoss in general. Didn't Bisu say something about playing Jaedong for the first time and he won 3-0 or something. Then he thought that Jaedong was overrated and proceeded to lose the next 10 maps convincingly.
On November 10 2013 22:03 Ingsoc wrote: sOs outplayed Jaedong, with some really surprising and effective moves. I still think Jaedong's the better player though. Does this make me salty?
No, nothing wrong with that. sOs was the better player in that bo7, he outplayed and outsmarted him hard. I still think Jaedong would win in a bo101 pretty damn hard, but that's the weakness of Protoss in general. Didn't Bisu say something about playing Jaedong for the first time and he won 3-0 or something. Then he thought that Jaedong was overrated and proceeded to lose the next 10 maps convincingly.
Yeah. I just hope there wouldn't be so much toxicity around here. JD Fans giving absolutely uncalled for comments about sOs and his effort. And the other way around from people towards JD Fans, whining and nonwhining ones, with remarks such as tears, salty, etc arguments. Complete bullshit. Some people really should man up but baiting out this shit won't make it any easier for people to appreciate sOs as champion.
- Awesome finals and a great final series between two worthy players. sOs clearly had the edge and deserved the win
- One more player added to the growing list of Protoss players worth watching
- The in-eyes cam was an awesome addition that really added another dimension to the viewer experience. Really enjoyed watching some of the games from this perspective, although the speed did make my head hurt a bit at times (propably also related to me getting old and having a bad cold
The downside:
- JD played such a great tournament and would have been nice to see him finally take that trophy! Next time.
On November 10 2013 22:03 Ingsoc wrote: sOs outplayed Jaedong, with some really surprising and effective moves. I still think Jaedong's the better player though. Does this make me salty?
No, nothing wrong with that. sOs was the better player in that bo7, he outplayed and outsmarted him hard. I still think Jaedong would win in a bo101 pretty damn hard, but that's the weakness of Protoss in general. Didn't Bisu say something about playing Jaedong for the first time and he won 3-0 or something. Then he thought that Jaedong was overrated and proceeded to lose the next 10 maps convincingly.
all that Bo101 stuff is just a theory that doesnt have any base, the better player should be able to win a Bo1, a Bo3, a Bo5 or a Bo69, maybe JD can win a Bo101, but sOs no ? For example, Bo7 are WAY different than Bo3, players are getting tired, are going "mad" if things doesnt go in their way, they can get overconfident, etc... in a Bo3 if you are losing 1-0 you either go and win the next 2 or you are out, in a Bo7 you need to be 3-0 down to be in match point, going 1-0 in a Bo7 its nowhere near going 1-0 in a Bo3
Assuming that a Bo101 is all about skills is just wrong, this game its A LOT more than just micro, macro and mind games... even jet lag can affect your gameplay
On November 10 2013 22:02 shadymmj wrote: your problem starts off by thinking i am a whining JD fan. if you actually look at my team logo and read my post history you would have guessed that i am really a flash fan, therefore i consider myself to be impartial in this case. i am not talking about who should win or who should have won, and using what strategy. Shy won, the end.
you think he is the best now. excellent, but how many people actually think that he's the best player right now? how about recently? "maybe not in results, but in overall", i don't know what this disclaimer is supposed to mean. If you look at the thread below this one, you will see that significantly more people think that Dear is still better than Shy. Furthermore, it's not exactly, er...meaningful if you're the best for a month or two.
i guess that my main point should be that if you won a grand final, your position should not again be in dispute 1 week, 1 month, or even 3 months after. maybe we can draw parallels to the World chess championship currently going on simultaneously. whoever wins is going to be recognised as undisputed for quite a while. if you have a new champion every 1-2 months, it gets harder to become a legend and establish a large fanbase.
therefore either people should be more accepting of Shy as Sc2 champ of 2013 or something else has to change.
er nope, if Anand beats Carlsen, no-one's going to argue he's the undisputed best player in the world. Similar to when Kasparov lost his title to Kramnik in the World champs, Kasparov was still widely considered the best player in the world.
On November 10 2013 20:04 shadymmj wrote: I foresaw this problem a long time ago. jaedong was the "people's champion", but honestly the guy has done very very well and second place is still a great achievement. of course, that makes Shy the supreme master of sc2, except nobody thinks so because of the way he won. Still, there's probably no excuse to NOT expect cheese from him if you have studied him at all.
The trouble is that Shy is not a very popular player with a consistent string of results. He's probably about average in terms of fanbase. He's brilliant but irregular, and in this tournament he was the former. Of course I also think he's actually a very innovative player and deserving of the title, but that isn't really the point.
The point is that this "grand final" answered no questions. No one thinks Shy isn't unbeatable, least of all me. He doesn't have the "aura" of invincibility or the statistics that elevate him to a S-class player. In fact many people still think Dear is better than him. So what's the point of winning (other than cash goodies) if people won't even acknowledge you as the best? You will never become a legend like that.
Either people have to acknowledge him as THE BEST player of recent times (i hesitate to use the bonjwa term, but really that is what people are looking for), or we will have to find a new way of running this thing.
wow the amount of ignorance in this post is mindblowing
sHy without consistent string of results? Instrumental player in year-long SPL's campaign, various high finishes in KR, 2nd in the first WCS Jaedong? free ride to the finals for playing NA and DH. Yeah North America and Dreamhack, and he didnt even win shit. Funny how people doubt Dear or sOs who have been posting strong results all year long in the hardest competitions instead of someone who happened to have an insane weekend. I would consider this a fairy tale if Jaedong wins actually
I have flashback to the Super Tournament when Polt rolfstomped and laughed on fanboy tears with $100K. The point of winning is getting top money and having your name with a gold medal icon in liquidpedia. Goodluck become a legendary kong.
On November 10 2013 22:03 Ingsoc wrote: sOs outplayed Jaedong, with some really surprising and effective moves. I still think Jaedong's the better player though. Does this make me salty?
No, nothing wrong with that. sOs was the better player in that bo7, he outplayed and outsmarted him hard. I still think Jaedong would win in a bo101 pretty damn hard, but that's the weakness of Protoss in general. Didn't Bisu say something about playing Jaedong for the first time and he won 3-0 or something. Then he thought that Jaedong was overrated and proceeded to lose the next 10 maps convincingly.
all that Bo101 stuff is just a theory that doesnt have any base, the better player should be able to win a Bo1, a Bo3, a Bo5 or a Bo69, maybe JD can win a Bo101, but sOs no ? For example, Bo7 are WAY different than Bo3, players are getting tired, are going "mad" if things doesnt go in their way, they can get overconfident, etc... in a Bo3 if you are losing 1-0 you either go and win the next 2 or you are out, in a Bo7 you need to be 3-0 down to be in match point, going 1-0 in a Bo7 its nowhere near going 1-0 in a Bo3
Assuming that a Bo101 is all about skills is just wrong, this game its A LOT more than just micro, macro and mind games... even jet lag can affect your gameplay
I agree with all of it. There is much more to the game than pure, raw mechanics and skill. Planning the series, dealing with jetlag etc.. sOs won and deserves it. I still think theoretical thoughts like 2 players in a room, playing a bo101 without ever getting tired is fun.
Man that was probably the biggest anticlimax of the year, if not the whole of SC2. Everyone was rooting for JD, including the crowd. What a bummer. A bit sad that this is how I will remember Blizzcon 2013
On November 10 2013 22:03 Ingsoc wrote: sOs outplayed Jaedong, with some really surprising and effective moves. I still think Jaedong's the better player though. Does this make me salty?
No, nothing wrong with that. sOs was the better player in that bo7, he outplayed and outsmarted him hard. I still think Jaedong would win in a bo101 pretty damn hard, but that's the weakness of Protoss in general. Didn't Bisu say something about playing Jaedong for the first time and he won 3-0 or something. Then he thought that Jaedong was overrated and proceeded to lose the next 10 maps convincingly.
On November 10 2013 20:04 shadymmj wrote: I foresaw this problem a long time ago. jaedong was the "people's champion", but honestly the guy has done very very well and second place is still a great achievement. of course, that makes Shy the supreme master of sc2, except nobody thinks so because of the way he won. Still, there's probably no excuse to NOT expect cheese from him if you have studied him at all.
The trouble is that Shy is not a very popular player with a consistent string of results. He's probably about average in terms of fanbase. He's brilliant but irregular, and in this tournament he was the former. Of course I also think he's actually a very innovative player and deserving of the title, but that isn't really the point.
The point is that this "grand final" answered no questions. No one thinks Shy isn't unbeatable, least of all me. He doesn't have the "aura" of invincibility or the statistics that elevate him to a S-class player. In fact many people still think Dear is better than him. So what's the point of winning (other than cash goodies) if people won't even acknowledge you as the best? You will never become a legend like that.
Either people have to acknowledge him as THE BEST player of recent times (i hesitate to use the bonjwa term, but really that is what people are looking for), or we will have to find a new way of running this thing.
wow the amount of ignorance in this post is mindblowing
sHy without consistent string of results? Instrumental player in year-long SPL's campaign, various high finishes in KR, 2nd in the first WCS Jaedong? free ride to the finals for playing NA and DH. Yeah North America and Dreamhack, and he didnt even win shit. Funny how people doubt Dear or sOs who have been posting strong results all year long in the hardest competitions instead of someone who happened to have an insane weekend. I would consider this a fairy tale if Jaedong wins actually
I have flashback to the Super Tournament when Polt rolfstomped and laughed on fanboy tears with $100K. The point of winning is getting top money and having your name with a gold medal icon in liquidpedia. Goodluck become a legendary kong.
Considering sHy is the guy that most protoss players today get their inspiration from including Dear. Does it really sound that baffling? The guy has balls of steel.
Well I got to be honest, I'm pretty happy I didn't see the final (they do tend to be pretty shitty). I absolutely love Jaedong, he improves his weaknesses again and again, and in one way, it can be seen in the light that him losing, is him being better the next tournament.
Besides, Jaedong has tons of championship belts in his history, its not like I feel sorry for him.
I found the games pretty awesome, but I like mindgames especially if they bridge over a whole series. Would have been nice if Jaedong would have been able to dictate the games to see his true power, but seems like no one can stop him then.
Even though I admire players who can pull off cheeses from time to time, it's sad to see a superior player fall to such cheap tactics every game except G1.
On November 10 2013 23:45 ysnake wrote: Even though I admire players who can pull off cheeses from time to time, it's sad to see a superior player fall to such cheap tactics every game except G1.
It's really sad to see a superior player being accused of being inferior because he played to win and didn't follow the foreign community's guidelines on how to properly play Starcraft.
On November 10 2013 23:45 ysnake wrote: Even though I admire players who can pull off cheeses from time to time, it's sad to see a superior player fall to such cheap tactics every game except G1.
On November 10 2013 23:45 ysnake wrote: Even though I admire players who can pull off cheeses from time to time, it's sad to see a superior player fall to such cheap tactics every game except G1.
You do realize JD went early pool or baneling bust in a ton of games on the runup to the finals, right?
On November 10 2013 23:56 Stolker wrote: That's what you get when the players have not time to prepare for the opponents like in GSL. This was not nearly as impressive as Code S
Yeah, a series like sOs vs Soulkey would have been a much better ending to the season than what we got.
On November 10 2013 23:56 Stolker wrote: That's what you get when the players have not time to prepare for the opponents like in GSL. This was not nearly as impressive as Code S
Yeah, a series like sOs vs Soulkey would have been a much better ending to the season than what we got.
To think about it, Bomber helped to avoid another awkward sOs vs SK semi-final.
On November 10 2013 23:45 ysnake wrote: Even though I admire players who can pull off cheeses from time to time, it's sad to see a superior player fall to such cheap tactics every game except G1.
On November 10 2013 11:56 DaftFunk wrote: I hate you sOs, but god damn it do I respect you
This, I hate to see pretty much only short games, but SoS clearly had the mental game down pat and was destroying Jaedong in his own mind more than in games.
Great series, wish we could have had a few more games between these two great players but hopefully next year will be even better.
He was cheering for Jaedong. This is after the only final game that sOs lost. This was the only moment when the producers showed the crowd actually getting extatic.
Congratz to sOs, he played great this weekend. it leaves nonetheless a "meh" feeling. he didnt win any tournament before, but is now the world champion 2013. ask yourself: is sOs truly the best player in 2013? dont know, maybe the tournament should be stretched and shouldnt be an MLG mk2. nonetheless it was a great tournament to watch, really looking forward to what they bring to the table in 2014
A lot of fanboy tears were shed in Copenhagen I can tell you that much.....do you guys know if there are any shows (like State of the Game or something like that) with some pro players, casters or commentators talking about WCS and in particular the finals and all this talk about JD and sOs? Would love to hear some thoughts.
On November 11 2013 01:21 eMGmoG wrote: Congratz to sOs, he played great this weekend. it leaves nonetheless a "meh" feeling. he didnt win any tournament before, but is now the world champion 2013. ask yourself: is sOs truly the best player in 2013? dont know, maybe the tournament should be stretched and shouldnt be an MLG mk2. nonetheless it was a great tournament to watch, really looking forward to what they bring to the table in 2014
Who would be the best player if won ? Please do not say JD
On November 11 2013 01:21 kuriz wrote: A lot of fanboy tears were shed in Copenhagen I can tell you that much.....do you guys know if there are any shows (like State of the Game or something like that) with some pro players, casters or commentators talking about WCS and in particular the finals and all this talk about JD and sOs? Would love to hear some thoughts.
Well, not yet. They're all still at Blizzcon or flying back right now
On November 11 2013 01:47 Noocta wrote: Well, not yet. They're all still at Blizzcon or flying back right now
Okay thank you for answering. In that same matter, is SotG still going on and what other shows are there that I could look into for some more talk and info about SC2 and WCS?
I feel we, as SC2 fans, are fascinated by perfect mechanics and/or strategies. Fans of JD or Dear really emphasizes mechanics but sOs is more a master of strategies.
pb is, it seems most of the crowd is impressed by strong mechanics because this kind of players look godlike you would feel you cannot beat them. In fact, you may never beat them if you play standard, but SC2 is such a great game There is always a new meta game to explore to catch your opponent off guard. personnally, I think JD was way too predictable to deserve a championship, like naniwa at IEM. These type of players should be punished by more versatile players. it makes the game far more fun to watch as well. Thank you so much sOs :-)
On November 11 2013 01:47 Noocta wrote: Well, not yet. They're all still at Blizzcon or flying back right now
Okay thank you for answering. In that same matter, is SotG still going on and what other shows are there that I could look into for some more talk and info about SC2 and WCS?
There are a few. I would recommend Meta, personally, as they tend to talk about things from a gameplay perspective and usually bring up a lot of a lot of interesting things you might not notice as an average viewer. They're bound to discuss WCS and the games played in-depth.
On November 11 2013 01:21 kuriz wrote: A lot of fanboy tears were shed in Copenhagen I can tell you that much.....do you guys know if there are any shows (like State of the Game or something like that) with some pro players, casters or commentators talking about WCS and in particular the finals and all this talk about JD and sOs? Would love to hear some thoughts.
Inside the game, hosted by djwheat, or Meta, hosted by artosis.
The first game was the number one throw I've seen in sc2 for 3 years and definitely top 5 throws of all time(esports). He had the whole freaking map to himself, 200/200 banking 4k/4k vs a starving 3 base 110 food toss..
He hasn't got stage fright I think, but getting 2nd all the time got to him, and he didn't finish the game with the zerg swarm early enough with the extreme bank he had and after the game 1 he was mentally beaten a bit.
On November 11 2013 02:16 gosublade wrote: The first game was the number one throw I've seen in sc2 for 3 years and definitely top 5 throws of all time(esports). He had the whole freaking map to himself, 200/200 banking 4k/4k vs a starving 3 base 110 food toss..
He hasn't got stage fright I think, but getting 2nd all the time got to him, and he didn't finish the game with the zerg swarm early enough with the extreme bank he had and after the game 1 he was mentally beaten a bit.
JD you still rock!
If game 1 is the number one throw you've ever seen in SC2 I have to question how much SC2 you actually watch
On November 11 2013 02:16 gosublade wrote: The first game was the number one throw I've seen in sc2 for 3 years and definitely top 5 throws of all time(esports). He had the whole freaking map to himself, 200/200 banking 4k/4k vs a starving 3 base 110 food toss..
He hasn't got stage fright I think, but getting 2nd all the time got to him, and he didn't finish the game with the zerg swarm early enough with the extreme bank he had and after the game 1 he was mentally beaten a bit.
JD you still rock!
If game 1 is the number one throw you've ever seen in SC2 I have to question how much SC2 you actually watch
On November 10 2013 12:28 isaachukfan wrote: This finals was exactly why starcraft is the best game in the world, strategy takes all...with that final match, sOs won a new fan
Agreed.
I loved watching sOs play because he beat Jaedong with tactics and strategy instead of pure mechanics. You'd think a community composed almost entirely of nerds would be able to unanimously appreciate something like that.
Didn't like the finals. The games weren't much fun to watch, TvZ and TvT seem to be the only matchups that can really deliver awesome games fairly consistently. Sometimes TvP, but to a lesser extend.
JD could definitely beat Sos.. Sos is good at mind games, but overall I'd give JD the edge. Only problem is, JD has some mental-health problems, and gets nervous every time he's in an important match and is the favorite to win. That's why he has five 2nd places in one year. Game 1 & 2 were definitely throws with JD being sooo far ahead and then tilting. Game 4 could have been won with safer play and more scouting.
Anticlimatic end. But oh well. Great tourney nevertheless. The Canadian crowd of S3 finals was definitely better than the US crowd, but other than that, production, players and staff-wise this was one of the best tourneys of SC2.
Edit: And at the guy over me, definitely agree with PvZ being less exciting gameplay-wise. 90% of games evolve around P doing an all-in and Z trying to defend without losing too much eco and then overpower.
So, Jaedong losing in the finals was a bummer, but to be honest I expected him to lose way earlier and for us to have yet another finals between WCS-korea only delegates (maru, dear, sOs, whatever).
I was super happy to see Jaedong making it so far because it game the tourney a storyline and drama we otherwise would have lacked if he got taken out with all the other "fan-favorites" in the first couple of rounds. Thank you Jaedong <3
(I'm not even that huge a fan and it was so HYPE to see his run to the finals!!)
On November 11 2013 02:55 Dwayn wrote: Didn't like the finals. The games weren't much fun to watch, TvZ and TvT seem to be the only matchups that can really deliver awesome games fairly consistently. Sometimes TvP, but to a lesser extend.
What an odd thing to say considering the TvPs in this tournament were absolutely fantastic. Pure bullshit because the PvP were good too. blah.
On November 11 2013 02:59 Caladan wrote: JD could definitely beat Sos.. Sos is good at mind games, but overall I'd give JD the edge. Only problem is, JD has some mental-health problems, and gets nervous every time he's in an important match and is the favorite to win. That's why he has five 2nd places in one year. Game 1 & 2 were definitely throws with JD being sooo far ahead and then tilting. Game 4 could have been won with safer play and more scouting.
Anticlimatic end. But oh well. Great tourney nevertheless. The Canadian crowd of S3 finals was definitely better than the US crowd, but other than that, production, players and staff-wise this was one of the best tourneys of SC2.
Edit: And at the guy over me, definitely agree with PvZ being less exciting gameplay-wise. 90% of games evolve around P doing an all-in and Z trying to defend without losing too much eco and then overpower.
You guys and keep telling yourselves that but doesn't make you right.
I can't believe my favourite player and also one of the most unorthodox players in the scene took the title, amazing Protoss play from sOs. I watched him through the entire thing and he looked incredible, he outplayed every single player on pretty much every single map. Biggest win of the year.
I've been saying for a while now that when we finally get Protoss players who deeply understand and correctly utilize all of the harassment and mental headfakes that Protoss is capable of we'll finally see how dominant a truly good Protoss player can be. With this Global Finals, I am fairly confident in pointing to Dear and sOs saying "THIS is what it should look like!"
Is it just me or anyone else thinks that StarCraft 2 looses credibility? I mean, this year we had like 4 different "best players",.. how could that be ? To be honest, I dont think SOS is THE best player right now, I think everyone else of the participants (with few exceptions) could have won the global finals. From now on SOS will fall just like every other "major tournament"-winner,.. because like all the other champions (besides Innovation in Season 1) noone truely was THE BEST.
what does that mean? -->If more and more different players win major tournaments,winning a tournament seems to become more and more worthless, because everyone can win it, you don't have to be the very best.
Is it Blizzards "we patch everything" - mentality ? Or just "normal" because HotS isn't even a year old? I have no idea, but its not good for the sport.
Because Bogus is clearly better than everyone else right? I have news for you no one has truly been the best player in SC2. Ever. People can talk about MC Boss Toss all they want, they can talk about MVP being King all they want, they can talk about Nestea all they want. When you have as many tournaments where you will always see different competitors (heck, even if we had the same competitors) the truth is there are a lot of players who can win on any given sunday depending on several factors. There would be shifts no matter what.
On November 11 2013 04:07 Crackpot wrote: RIP SC2?
Is it just me or anyone else thinks that StarCraft 2 looses credibility? I mean, this year we had like 4 different "best players",.. how could that be ? To be honest, I dont think SOS is THE best player right now, I think everyone else of the participants (with few exceptions) could have won the global finals. From now on SOS will fall just like every other "major tournament"-winner,.. because like all the other champions (besides Innovation in Season 1) noone truely was THE BEST.
what does that mean? -->If more and more different players win major tournaments,winning a tournament seems to become more and more worthless, because everyone can win it, you don't have to be the very best.
Is it Blizzards "we patch everything" - mentality ? Or just "normal" because HotS isn't even a year old? I have no idea, but its not good for the sport.
What's the best team in soccer?
Funnily enough, you will find that such questions rarely have simple answers. It might have been in Brood War, but there are many sports where there is no undisputed #1 that get along just fine.
And this whole "you don't have to be the best to win" is annoying, stupid and offensive all at once. Of course you have to be the best. You have to play better and smarter than everyone else to win. Or you lose. That's how the game works. If you didn't know sOs well enough before the tournament, I'm sorry, but your argument is and has always been bullshit.
Finally a player plays Protoss with its "full" potential and the community bashes him... SC2 its losing ground not because sOs beat JD with clever gameplay mechanics and tactics, and outsmarting him to the point of making JD looking like a fool falling each and every time in sOs plan, but because the community wants every match to be "do not chesee --> turtle for 30 minutes with harras to get a little edge --> deathball --> fight"
This is getting silly, nobody said ANYTHING when JD baneling busted Maru 2 (or was 3?) games in a row, because it was "The Dong", but suddenly comes a player, that TL defines as a "faceless korean" which actually shows how much does some people know about SC2 (watch Proleague, please...), and put JD to shame with his mind games and unorthodox play style and now everything is "SC2 is dead, RIP SC2, JD SOOO MUCH BETTER"
If i were playing for a 100k i would do everything in my power to win, and so will everyone
On November 11 2013 04:07 Crackpot wrote: RIP SC2?
Is it just me or anyone else thinks that StarCraft 2 looses credibility? I mean, this year we had like 4 different "best players",.. how could that be ? To be honest, I dont think SOS is THE best player right now, I think everyone else of the participants (with few exceptions) could have won the global finals. From now on SOS will fall just like every other "major tournament"-winner,.. because like all the other champions (besides Innovation in Season 1) noone truely was THE BEST.
what does that mean? -->If more and more different players win major tournaments,winning a tournament seems to become more and more worthless, because everyone can win it, you don't have to be the very best.
Is it Blizzards "we patch everything" - mentality ? Or just "normal" because HotS isn't even a year old? I have no idea, but its not good for the sport.
Did you watch the games? Because they were amazing.
I agree that it would be nice to get some more consistent winners for better storylines, but the fact is that sOs played the best Starcraft this weekend. Not because of game design or balance or Blizzard or anything else you want to blame it on.
On November 11 2013 04:30 Faruko wrote: Finally a player plays Protoss with its "full" potential and the community bashes him... SC2 its losing ground not because sOs beat JD with clever gameplay mechanics and tactics, and outsmarting him to the point of making JD looking like a fool falling each and every time in sOs plan, but because the community wants every match to be "do not chesee --> turtle for 30 minutes with harras to get a little edge --> deathball --> fight"
This is getting silly, nobody said ANYTHING when JD baneling busted Maru 2 (or was 3?) games in a row, because it was "The Dong", but suddenly comes a player, that TL defines as a "faceless korean" which actually shows how much does some people know about SC2 (watch Proleague, please...), and put JD to shame with his mind games and unorthodox play style and now everything is "SC2 is dead, RIP SC2, JD SOOO MUCH BETTER"
If i were playing for a 100k i would do everything in my power to win, and so will everyone
Blame every single caster, personality and host for not being able to create enough hype for every player. Go back two weeks(?) to the Season Finals in Toronto, every player got cheered for it was epic.
Meanwhile at Blizzcon it was the standard " I'm only going to cheer for my favorite player and no one else". The crowd reactions when Jaekong defended/attacked something was night and day when compared to sOs, it was the good guy vs that evil bosses little brother and the casters even if they tried at times got carried away sadly.
Blizzard tried with the quick tournament recap for the players but that was the end, even at the analystdesk it was Jaedong..Jaedong.....oh yeah and Jaedong.
I wonder how many times we'll have to repeat it to have change.
Game 1 felt like JD should have went to an absurd amount of drones when he was on 5 base. Use his big army/advantage to mine LOTS of minerals and then transform into spine crawlers. This way he delays push, also gets a 5k/5k bank instead of 2k/2k. At a time when protoss was struggling to get up a 4th and he was comfortably on 5 bases, it might have given him the necessary edge in game 1.
On November 11 2013 04:30 Faruko wrote: Finally a player plays Protoss with its "full" potential and the community bashes him... SC2 its losing ground not because sOs beat JD with clever gameplay mechanics and tactics, and outsmarting him to the point of making JD looking like a fool falling each and every time in sOs plan, but because the community wants every match to be "do not chesee --> turtle for 30 minutes with harras to get a little edge --> deathball --> fight"
This is getting silly, nobody said ANYTHING when JD baneling busted Maru 2 (or was 3?) games in a row, because it was "The Dong", but suddenly comes a player, that TL defines as a "faceless korean" which actually shows how much does some people know about SC2 (watch Proleague, please...), and put JD to shame with his mind games and unorthodox play style and now everything is "SC2 is dead, RIP SC2, JD SOOO MUCH BETTER"
If i were playing for a 100k i would do everything in my power to win, and so will everyone
Blame every single caster, personality and host for not being able to create enough hype for every player. Go back two weeks(?) to the Season Finals in Toronto, every player got cheered for it was epic.
Meanwhile at Blizzcon it was the standard " I'm only going to cheer for my favorite player and no one else". The crowd reactions when Jaekong defended/attacked something was night and day when compared to sOs, it was the good guy vs that evil bosses little brother and the casters even if they tried at times got carried away sadly.
Blizzard tried with the quick tournament recap for the players but that was the end, even at the analystdesk it was Jaedong..Jaedong.....oh yeah and Jaedong.
I wonder how many times we'll have to repeat it to have change.
Oh yes such a shame that people wanted jaedong to win and cheered for him instead of his opponent.
As much as I wanted to see Jaedong get that Trophy or even Bomber cuz Bomber,,,,, sOs played beautifully. Not as memorable as Nestea vs Mvp in 2011 Blizzcon, this final was stilll very good. Do not regret watching
In all of history? Impossible to indicate one, but three is an easy choice: Brasil, Germany and Italy. And the same would (and should!) apply to SC2, I think. A select few who dominate tournaments and then a small group of highly skilled players who want to make themselves members of said select few either by joining it or ousting and replacing one of the current members.
I watched the finals for JD and JD only...so I wasn't too happy about the result. JD losing = I am old. At any rate, sOs just plain outplayed JD on every level. It was sad to watch.
Given the skill that sOs showed, I do not think that it would have made a difference but I think that the organizers of the tournament made an egregious mistake that tilted the odds against JD. Because the final round was played soon after the second semi-final was finished, sOs had more time to calm his nerves and prepare with his entourage for the winner of Maru-JD. The supposedly less prestigious WCS Korea finals always scheduled the final round a couple days after the semi-finals ended. The match scheduling at the Blizzcon made it feel more like an event tournament than a serious sporting event. The only saving grace was that the prize pool was large and the participants were world-class players. They deserved the kind of playing schedule that would allow them to have the level of preparation they would have for the OSL.
i'm watching game 2 again. i feel JD mismicroed the first two drones at the scene of the cannon rush. they went inside instead of trying to prevent the probe from sealing the top region. clever sos.
With all the respect towards sOs, it was about the best player of the year. And for me sOs was not the best player of the year. How can you say that? He deserved the win against Jaedong absolutly, because of his beautiful play. And he definetly deserves more than he achieved until this weekend. But #1? - Come on. It's not even about beeing a JD- or another players fanboy. It just feels like greece winning world championship in football - not at all what you would expect
Overall the wcs produced some of the most amazing games and upsets over the year. It showed us that with all the god-like players out there your success can be diminished within a few months time. It showed us the faces of incredible players we didn't know about last year, (probably), like duckdeok, Dear, Maru, Trap,... and innovative strategies executed perfectly from the likes of Dear and sOs, machinelike Macro from Bomber and Innovation, entertainment factor from MC and the hope that Spider-Hyun will make it to Blizzcon 2014 in a funny outfit! I loved it :D
On November 11 2013 04:30 Faruko wrote: Finally a player plays Protoss with its "full" potential and the community bashes him... SC2 its losing ground not because sOs beat JD with clever gameplay mechanics and tactics, and outsmarting him to the point of making JD looking like a fool falling each and every time in sOs plan, but because the community wants every match to be "do not chesee --> turtle for 30 minutes with harras to get a little edge --> deathball --> fight"
This is getting silly, nobody said ANYTHING when JD baneling busted Maru 2 (or was 3?) games in a row, because it was "The Dong", but suddenly comes a player, that TL defines as a "faceless korean" which actually shows how much does some people know about SC2 (watch Proleague, please...), and put JD to shame with his mind games and unorthodox play style and now everything is "SC2 is dead, RIP SC2, JD SOOO MUCH BETTER"
If i were playing for a 100k i would do everything in my power to win, and so will everyone
Blame every single caster, personality and host for not being able to create enough hype for every player. Go back two weeks(?) to the Season Finals in Toronto, every player got cheered for it was epic.
Meanwhile at Blizzcon it was the standard " I'm only going to cheer for my favorite player and no one else". The crowd reactions when Jaekong defended/attacked something was night and day when compared to sOs, it was the good guy vs that evil bosses little brother and the casters even if they tried at times got carried away sadly.
Blizzard tried with the quick tournament recap for the players but that was the end, even at the analystdesk it was Jaedong..Jaedong.....oh yeah and Jaedong.
I wonder how many times we'll have to repeat it to have change.
Oh yes such a shame that people wanted jaedong to win and cheered for him instead of his opponent.
I dont care about the crowd, people can cheer for whatever player they want... but i have problems with the casters, host, etc... they should be COMPLETELY unbiased and impartial, and this clearly wasnt the case.
Everyone is watching this, not just JD fans... THATS the problem
On November 11 2013 04:30 Faruko wrote: Finally a player plays Protoss with its "full" potential and the community bashes him... SC2 its losing ground not because sOs beat JD with clever gameplay mechanics and tactics, and outsmarting him to the point of making JD looking like a fool falling each and every time in sOs plan, but because the community wants every match to be "do not chesee --> turtle for 30 minutes with harras to get a little edge --> deathball --> fight"
This is getting silly, nobody said ANYTHING when JD baneling busted Maru 2 (or was 3?) games in a row, because it was "The Dong", but suddenly comes a player, that TL defines as a "faceless korean" which actually shows how much does some people know about SC2 (watch Proleague, please...), and put JD to shame with his mind games and unorthodox play style and now everything is "SC2 is dead, RIP SC2, JD SOOO MUCH BETTER"
If i were playing for a 100k i would do everything in my power to win, and so will everyone
People dislike the cannon rush cheese because it is so easy to do and has such a huge impact, and it isnt really scoutable. You just have to blindly counter it, which costs you minerals and him nothing. If there weren't cheese spots behind minerals nobody would care. People also feel a bit cheated since in 3 (4?) of the games sOs did some kind of hidden cheese.
Yes, it is him playing to win... but whenever something is lopsided against our favorite we dislike it. People dont like one round boxing matches, it is no different here.
JD shouldve played a lot better, I dont know what he was thinking. Ultralisks on akilon is dumb. Base trading with ultralisks on akilon is horrendous. Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2? It just really felt like he couldve done a lot better.
man, those two cannons at bottom mid near the end of game 2, so genius by SoS. perfect cover to support a forward pylon position, cover his zealots against lings and cover his phoenix against corruptors.
On November 11 2013 04:30 Faruko wrote: Finally a player plays Protoss with its "full" potential and the community bashes him... SC2 its losing ground not because sOs beat JD with clever gameplay mechanics and tactics, and outsmarting him to the point of making JD looking like a fool falling each and every time in sOs plan, but because the community wants every match to be "do not chesee --> turtle for 30 minutes with harras to get a little edge --> deathball --> fight"
This is getting silly, nobody said ANYTHING when JD baneling busted Maru 2 (or was 3?) games in a row, because it was "The Dong", but suddenly comes a player, that TL defines as a "faceless korean" which actually shows how much does some people know about SC2 (watch Proleague, please...), and put JD to shame with his mind games and unorthodox play style and now everything is "SC2 is dead, RIP SC2, JD SOOO MUCH BETTER"
If i were playing for a 100k i would do everything in my power to win, and so will everyone
People dislike the cannon rush cheese because it is so easy to do and has such a huge impact, and it isnt really scoutable. You just have to blindly counter it, which costs you minerals and him nothing. If there weren't cheese spots behind minerals nobody would care. People also feel a bit cheated since in 3 (4?) of the games sOs did some kind of hidden cheese.
Yes, it is him playing to win... but whenever something is lopsided against our favorite we dislike it. People dont like one round boxing matches, it is no different here.
JD shouldve played a lot better, I dont know what he was thinking. Ultralisks on akilon is dumb. Base trading with ultralisks on akilon is horrendous. Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2? It just really felt like he couldve done a lot better.
Against top caliber players? Any type of cannon rush isn't easy to pull off at all. Why because they're pretty good at stopping it/scouting it. sOs got snuffed many times yet he still made shit work.
On November 11 2013 04:30 Faruko wrote: Finally a player plays Protoss with its "full" potential and the community bashes him... SC2 its losing ground not because sOs beat JD with clever gameplay mechanics and tactics, and outsmarting him to the point of making JD looking like a fool falling each and every time in sOs plan, but because the community wants every match to be "do not chesee --> turtle for 30 minutes with harras to get a little edge --> deathball --> fight"
This is getting silly, nobody said ANYTHING when JD baneling busted Maru 2 (or was 3?) games in a row, because it was "The Dong", but suddenly comes a player, that TL defines as a "faceless korean" which actually shows how much does some people know about SC2 (watch Proleague, please...), and put JD to shame with his mind games and unorthodox play style and now everything is "SC2 is dead, RIP SC2, JD SOOO MUCH BETTER"
If i were playing for a 100k i would do everything in my power to win, and so will everyone
People dislike the cannon rush cheese because it is so easy to do and has such a huge impact, and it isnt really scoutable. You just have to blindly counter it, which costs you minerals and him nothing. If there weren't cheese spots behind minerals nobody would care. People also feel a bit cheated since in 3 (4?) of the games sOs did some kind of hidden cheese.
Yes, it is him playing to win... but whenever something is lopsided against our favorite we dislike it. People dont like one round boxing matches, it is no different here.
JD shouldve played a lot better, I dont know what he was thinking. Ultralisks on akilon is dumb. Base trading with ultralisks on akilon is horrendous. Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2? It just really felt like he couldve done a lot better.
Against top caliber players? Any type of cannon rush isn't easy to pull off at all. Why because they're pretty good at stopping it/scouting it. sOs got snuffed many times yet he still made shit work.
"Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2?" A cannon rush is easy because either: 1) You just don't do it because his drone is on you 2) You do it because his drone isn't on you If you do it and he pulls 10 drones to stop it, you cancel the 2nd pylon + cannon and are still ahead.
Either scenario you gain an advantage, and both are easy. This is one reason why early forge is used against Z in the first place. Saying a cannon rush is hard is ridiculous, it just depends on how your opponent acts towards your scouting probe.
It's interesting how Jaedong lost to a different person in each of his 5 silvers this year. Most Kongs have lost to one person at least a couple of times in the finals.
On November 11 2013 04:30 Faruko wrote: Finally a player plays Protoss with its "full" potential and the community bashes him... SC2 its losing ground not because sOs beat JD with clever gameplay mechanics and tactics, and outsmarting him to the point of making JD looking like a fool falling each and every time in sOs plan, but because the community wants every match to be "do not chesee --> turtle for 30 minutes with harras to get a little edge --> deathball --> fight"
This is getting silly, nobody said ANYTHING when JD baneling busted Maru 2 (or was 3?) games in a row, because it was "The Dong", but suddenly comes a player, that TL defines as a "faceless korean" which actually shows how much does some people know about SC2 (watch Proleague, please...), and put JD to shame with his mind games and unorthodox play style and now everything is "SC2 is dead, RIP SC2, JD SOOO MUCH BETTER"
If i were playing for a 100k i would do everything in my power to win, and so will everyone
People dislike the cannon rush cheese because it is so easy to do and has such a huge impact, and it isnt really scoutable. You just have to blindly counter it, which costs you minerals and him nothing. If there weren't cheese spots behind minerals nobody would care. People also feel a bit cheated since in 3 (4?) of the games sOs did some kind of hidden cheese.
Yes, it is him playing to win... but whenever something is lopsided against our favorite we dislike it. People dont like one round boxing matches, it is no different here.
JD shouldve played a lot better, I dont know what he was thinking. Ultralisks on akilon is dumb. Base trading with ultralisks on akilon is horrendous. Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2? It just really felt like he couldve done a lot better.
Against top caliber players? Any type of cannon rush isn't easy to pull off at all. Why because they're pretty good at stopping it/scouting it. sOs got snuffed many times yet he still made shit work.
"Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2?" A cannon rush is easy because either: 1) You just don't do it because his drone is on you 2) You do it because his drone isn't on you If you do it and he pulls 10 drones to stop it, you cancel the 2nd pylon + cannon and are still ahead.
Either scenario you gain an advantage, and both are easy. This is one reason why early forge is used against Z in the first place. Saying a cannon rush is hard is ridiculous, it just depends on how your opponent acts towards your scouting probe.
What ? Cannon rush its only easy if you dont scout it, in fact, the first Cannon rush wasnt that effective, the second would had not been as effective if JD didnt made that stupid mistake of locking out 2 of their drones.
Cannon rush its no easy feat agains pro players, most of them can scout them way ahead, JD didnt, and he paid for it with 2 loses
The first cannon rush simply failed. Far from winning the game for sOs, it almost lost it for him. It was only through terrific defense, smart build choices, and some poor decisions by Jaedong that sOs was able to win.
Even though the finals were incredibly disappointing for me personally, the event itself was INCREDIBLE. I hope every WCS tournament is AT LEAST as good as this and Toronto next year
On November 11 2013 04:30 Faruko wrote: Finally a player plays Protoss with its "full" potential and the community bashes him... SC2 its losing ground not because sOs beat JD with clever gameplay mechanics and tactics, and outsmarting him to the point of making JD looking like a fool falling each and every time in sOs plan, but because the community wants every match to be "do not chesee --> turtle for 30 minutes with harras to get a little edge --> deathball --> fight"
This is getting silly, nobody said ANYTHING when JD baneling busted Maru 2 (or was 3?) games in a row, because it was "The Dong", but suddenly comes a player, that TL defines as a "faceless korean" which actually shows how much does some people know about SC2 (watch Proleague, please...), and put JD to shame with his mind games and unorthodox play style and now everything is "SC2 is dead, RIP SC2, JD SOOO MUCH BETTER"
If i were playing for a 100k i would do everything in my power to win, and so will everyone
People dislike the cannon rush cheese because it is so easy to do and has such a huge impact, and it isnt really scoutable. You just have to blindly counter it, which costs you minerals and him nothing. If there weren't cheese spots behind minerals nobody would care. People also feel a bit cheated since in 3 (4?) of the games sOs did some kind of hidden cheese.
Yes, it is him playing to win... but whenever something is lopsided against our favorite we dislike it. People dont like one round boxing matches, it is no different here.
JD shouldve played a lot better, I dont know what he was thinking. Ultralisks on akilon is dumb. Base trading with ultralisks on akilon is horrendous. Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2? It just really felt like he couldve done a lot better.
Against top caliber players? Any type of cannon rush isn't easy to pull off at all. Why because they're pretty good at stopping it/scouting it. sOs got snuffed many times yet he still made shit work.
"Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2?" A cannon rush is easy because either: 1) You just don't do it because his drone is on you 2) You do it because his drone isn't on you If you do it and he pulls 10 drones to stop it, you cancel the 2nd pylon + cannon and are still ahead.
Either scenario you gain an advantage, and both are easy. This is one reason why early forge is used against Z in the first place. Saying a cannon rush is hard is ridiculous, it just depends on how your opponent acts towards your scouting probe.
It's hard to pull off against players of this caliber. Just watch pro league and see how many times they get snuffed. You always have to be on top of the army man. Same rule applies for the probe.
On November 11 2013 04:07 Crackpot wrote: RIP SC2?
Is it just me or anyone else thinks that StarCraft 2 looses credibility? I mean, this year we had like 4 different "best players",.. how could that be ? To be honest, I dont think SOS is THE best player right now, I think everyone else of the participants (with few exceptions) could have won the global finals. From now on SOS will fall just like every other "major tournament"-winner,.. because like all the other champions (besides Innovation in Season 1) noone truely was THE BEST.
what does that mean? -->If more and more different players win major tournaments,winning a tournament seems to become more and more worthless, because everyone can win it, you don't have to be the very best.
Is it Blizzards "we patch everything" - mentality ? Or just "normal" because HotS isn't even a year old? I have no idea, but its not good for the sport.
What's the best team in soccer?
Funnily enough, you will find that such questions rarely have simple answers. It might have been in Brood War, but there are many sports where there is no undisputed #1 that get along just fine.
And this whole "you don't have to be the best to win" is annoying, stupid and offensive all at once. Of course you have to be the best. You have to play better and smarter than everyone else to win. Or you lose. That's how the game works. If you didn't know sOs well enough before the tournament, I'm sorry, but your argument is and has always been bullshit.
Funnily the best soccer Team is Barcelona and munich.
Seems like i hit some sos fanboy. to make things clear.. SOS won cause he played better than jd, i dont deny that.
And yes i saw SOS playing before the tournament. In my eyes he never was a pro deserving a championship, but there are many like him, maybe his mindgames(and they where pretty good) worked Vs jd now. but in pure mechanics, micro and strategies i see much better players than him.Dont get me wrong, I dont blame SOS for winning something, I blame the game or maybeblizzard or the tournemants or maybe every other progamer for letting stuff like that happen. you see , i dont know what to blame because i have no idea what is cousing this inconsistency.
On November 10 2013 15:37 MarlieChurphy wrote: 3 things that bothered me about JD's play:
1, He basically threw away a won game by playing lazy/bad. He went ultras, no reason to go ultras. No reason to send those 4 ultra to finish the bruised nexus either, 2 of them didn't even DO ANYTHING, they just died. He could have sent 25 lings, or 8 mutas, or anything other that the ultras there. And then he decided to base trade and hope to remax on muta, even though there was nothing in the base to kill the ultra army so he could remax muta. What a poor gameplan.
2, How could you not notice he is going forge/nexus openings and do some early pool builds. 7pool works great even if you don't outright win.
3, Why doesn't he EVER scout all the bases. As a casual gamer even I send my fresh lords or random lings to all the empty bases after 15 minutes. What the fuck man.
To sum it all up, JD lacks in scouting and decision making. Work on it or you will forever fill the lost duty of Yellow and Stork as the silver miner.
Really, SOS is good but his play isn't all that overwhelming or technical. He just BO countered and took advantage of JDs weaknesses. Once a player has those taken away, he beats SOS.
even progamers make mistake buddy .. even the greatest ones ..
Of course they do, but if you want to be top dog and win golds, you don't. Or at least don't make as many as the opponents. What is your point.
On November 11 2013 04:07 Crackpot wrote: RIP SC2?
Is it just me or anyone else thinks that StarCraft 2 looses credibility? I mean, this year we had like 4 different "best players",.. how could that be ? To be honest, I dont think SOS is THE best player right now, I think everyone else of the participants (with few exceptions) could have won the global finals. From now on SOS will fall just like every other "major tournament"-winner,.. because like all the other champions (besides Innovation in Season 1) noone truely was THE BEST.
what does that mean? -->If more and more different players win major tournaments,winning a tournament seems to become more and more worthless, because everyone can win it, you don't have to be the very best.
Is it Blizzards "we patch everything" - mentality ? Or just "normal" because HotS isn't even a year old? I have no idea, but its not good for the sport.
What's the best team in soccer?
Funnily enough, you will find that such questions rarely have simple answers. It might have been in Brood War, but there are many sports where there is no undisputed #1 that get along just fine.
And this whole "you don't have to be the best to win" is annoying, stupid and offensive all at once. Of course you have to be the best. You have to play better and smarter than everyone else to win. Or you lose. That's how the game works. If you didn't know sOs well enough before the tournament, I'm sorry, but your argument is and has always been bullshit.
Funnily the best soccer Team is Barcelona and munich.
Seems like i hit some sos fanboy. to make things clear.. SOS won cause he played better than jd, i dont deny that.
And yes i saw SOS playing before the tournament. In my eyes he never was a pro deserving a championship, but there are many like him, maybe his mindgames(and they where pretty good) worked Vs jd now. but in pure mechanics, micro and strategies i see much better players than him.Dont get me wrong, I dont blame SOS for winning something, I blame the game or maybeblizzard or the tournemants or maybe every other progamer for letting stuff like that happen. you see , i dont know what to blame because i have no idea what is cousing this inconsistency.
Peace
Yes because his matches against Polt and Bomber didnt show that sOs is clearly A LOT better than what he was months ago, his mechanics are way ahead of what they used to be, his tactics are executed so much better than before, hell even the game he lost agains JD he succeed in that regard, it was only JD with the great call/gamble of doing 15 or so Mutas
On November 11 2013 04:07 Crackpot wrote: RIP SC2?
Is it just me or anyone else thinks that StarCraft 2 looses credibility? I mean, this year we had like 4 different "best players",.. how could that be ? To be honest, I dont think SOS is THE best player right now, I think everyone else of the participants (with few exceptions) could have won the global finals. From now on SOS will fall just like every other "major tournament"-winner,.. because like all the other champions (besides Innovation in Season 1) noone truely was THE BEST.
what does that mean? -->If more and more different players win major tournaments,winning a tournament seems to become more and more worthless, because everyone can win it, you don't have to be the very best.
Is it Blizzards "we patch everything" - mentality ? Or just "normal" because HotS isn't even a year old? I have no idea, but its not good for the sport.
Did you watch the games? Because they were amazing.
I agree that it would be nice to get some more consistent winners for better storylines, but the fact is that sOs played the best Starcraft this weekend. Not because of game design or balance or Blizzard or anything else you want to blame it on.
If i would know what to blame it on, i would Say it. but i never blamed balance for SOS winning over jd. Iam not sure if its because SOS played the best starcraft this weekend, the others just played shit, look at bomber, he destroyed himself all alone. But when others play shit, its your time to shine. thats the rule in starcraft right now.
If innovation would still play on his level like in season 1, things would be amazing. Or if bomber would play like in season 2 finals, i would love watching every tournament. same with SOS , if he could play that good like vs jd everytime i would love watching him. but thats not the way it goes. next gsl code s you can roll the dice again .
On November 10 2013 11:46 Qwyn wrote: The most disappointing and - lame - ending to a tourney I've seen all year. sOs added to my player hit list.
such arrogant guys here all jd fanboys hitting on sos by no reason ... was best finals and sos was suuuper smart ... best protoss and overall best player of 2013, undenieable since well he won it
you guys calling others play bad and not him play good ? how arrogant can you guys be ...
ofc there was alot winners this year and then its said "oh sc2 dying" sooo bs ... i mean i think i barley see ANY soccer championchip where the BEST team wins ... its not the normal case, the team with the best ideas spirit and form wins !
On November 11 2013 04:07 Crackpot wrote: RIP SC2?
Is it just me or anyone else thinks that StarCraft 2 looses credibility? I mean, this year we had like 4 different "best players",.. how could that be ? To be honest, I dont think SOS is THE best player right now, I think everyone else of the participants (with few exceptions) could have won the global finals. From now on SOS will fall just like every other "major tournament"-winner,.. because like all the other champions (besides Innovation in Season 1) noone truely was THE BEST.
what does that mean? -->If more and more different players win major tournaments,winning a tournament seems to become more and more worthless, because everyone can win it, you don't have to be the very best.
Is it Blizzards "we patch everything" - mentality ? Or just "normal" because HotS isn't even a year old? I have no idea, but its not good for the sport.
What's the best team in soccer?
Funnily enough, you will find that such questions rarely have simple answers. It might have been in Brood War, but there are many sports where there is no undisputed #1 that get along just fine.
And this whole "you don't have to be the best to win" is annoying, stupid and offensive all at once. Of course you have to be the best. You have to play better and smarter than everyone else to win. Or you lose. That's how the game works. If you didn't know sOs well enough before the tournament, I'm sorry, but your argument is and has always been bullshit.
Funnily the best soccer Team is Barcelona and munich.
Seems like i hit some sos fanboy. to make things clear.. SOS won cause he played better than jd, i dont deny that.
And yes i saw SOS playing before the tournament. In my eyes he never was a pro deserving a championship, but there are many like him, maybe his mindgames(and they where pretty good) worked Vs jd now. but in pure mechanics, micro and strategies i see much better players than him.Dont get me wrong, I dont blame SOS for winning something, I blame the game or maybeblizzard or the tournemants or maybe every other progamer for letting stuff like that happen. you see , i dont know what to blame because i have no idea what is cousing this inconsistency.
Peace
Blaming Blizzard or every other pro gamer letting stuff like that happen? Rofl. Somehow I doubt you ever watched PL, but I don't blame you. Many people apparently didn't. You have a lot of options when it comes to what you can watch and when to watch. The PL timeslot isn't really friendly for many people. Anywho, there are quite a few of Protosses that can give you a run for your money (and that's one of the reasons they do so well because these guys have their own variations which makes it hard to play against unless you know what's coming) and guess what? sHy showed us plenty of new options and this goes back to PL. It's funny because I remember so many people would rag on whatever Protoss was doing well atm. People would shit on players like MC (including your 'idols'), PartinG and so on. The fact sOs can execute such strategies and sometimes they don't work out so well in the beginning and still hold his own. I think that says something. When the guy should probably be behind. He isn't behind. That my friend is scary. Not only that he's moving onto another front and using unit compositions that are so risky. If you don't nail it. You should be fucked. Also those storms man. MC storm meet sOs storm.
thats the problem with foreign community, if the fan favorit isnt winning its shittalk time for his enemys ... sos played such a great tournament and i could not see a single player in 2013 who could have beaten him this weekend ... and stop saying the others played bad you just overhype your memories ...
On November 11 2013 04:30 Faruko wrote: Finally a player plays Protoss with its "full" potential and the community bashes him... SC2 its losing ground not because sOs beat JD with clever gameplay mechanics and tactics, and outsmarting him to the point of making JD looking like a fool falling each and every time in sOs plan, but because the community wants every match to be "do not chesee --> turtle for 30 minutes with harras to get a little edge --> deathball --> fight"
This is getting silly, nobody said ANYTHING when JD baneling busted Maru 2 (or was 3?) games in a row, because it was "The Dong", but suddenly comes a player, that TL defines as a "faceless korean" which actually shows how much does some people know about SC2 (watch Proleague, please...), and put JD to shame with his mind games and unorthodox play style and now everything is "SC2 is dead, RIP SC2, JD SOOO MUCH BETTER"
If i were playing for a 100k i would do everything in my power to win, and so will everyone
People dislike the cannon rush cheese because it is so easy to do and has such a huge impact, and it isnt really scoutable. You just have to blindly counter it, which costs you minerals and him nothing. If there weren't cheese spots behind minerals nobody would care. People also feel a bit cheated since in 3 (4?) of the games sOs did some kind of hidden cheese.
Yes, it is him playing to win... but whenever something is lopsided against our favorite we dislike it. People dont like one round boxing matches, it is no different here.
JD shouldve played a lot better, I dont know what he was thinking. Ultralisks on akilon is dumb. Base trading with ultralisks on akilon is horrendous. Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2? It just really felt like he couldve done a lot better.
Against top caliber players? Any type of cannon rush isn't easy to pull off at all. Why because they're pretty good at stopping it/scouting it. sOs got snuffed many times yet he still made shit work.
"Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2?" A cannon rush is easy because either: 1) You just don't do it because his drone is on you 2) You do it because his drone isn't on you If you do it and he pulls 10 drones to stop it, you cancel the 2nd pylon + cannon and are still ahead.
Either scenario you gain an advantage, and both are easy. This is one reason why early forge is used against Z in the first place. Saying a cannon rush is hard is ridiculous, it just depends on how your opponent acts towards your scouting probe.
you even watch pro plays ? 90% of the canon rush i see gets destroyed and then protoss is so far behind that he loses, even sos canon rush nr1 was a bad canonrush who went overall better for jd ...
On November 11 2013 04:30 Faruko wrote: Finally a player plays Protoss with its "full" potential and the community bashes him... SC2 its losing ground not because sOs beat JD with clever gameplay mechanics and tactics, and outsmarting him to the point of making JD looking like a fool falling each and every time in sOs plan, but because the community wants every match to be "do not chesee --> turtle for 30 minutes with harras to get a little edge --> deathball --> fight"
This is getting silly, nobody said ANYTHING when JD baneling busted Maru 2 (or was 3?) games in a row, because it was "The Dong", but suddenly comes a player, that TL defines as a "faceless korean" which actually shows how much does some people know about SC2 (watch Proleague, please...), and put JD to shame with his mind games and unorthodox play style and now everything is "SC2 is dead, RIP SC2, JD SOOO MUCH BETTER"
If i were playing for a 100k i would do everything in my power to win, and so will everyone
People dislike the cannon rush cheese because it is so easy to do and has such a huge impact, and it isnt really scoutable. You just have to blindly counter it, which costs you minerals and him nothing. If there weren't cheese spots behind minerals nobody would care. People also feel a bit cheated since in 3 (4?) of the games sOs did some kind of hidden cheese.
Yes, it is him playing to win... but whenever something is lopsided against our favorite we dislike it. People dont like one round boxing matches, it is no different here.
JD shouldve played a lot better, I dont know what he was thinking. Ultralisks on akilon is dumb. Base trading with ultralisks on akilon is horrendous. Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2? It just really felt like he couldve done a lot better.
Against top caliber players? Any type of cannon rush isn't easy to pull off at all. Why because they're pretty good at stopping it/scouting it. sOs got snuffed many times yet he still made shit work.
"Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2?" A cannon rush is easy because either: 1) You just don't do it because his drone is on you 2) You do it because his drone isn't on you If you do it and he pulls 10 drones to stop it, you cancel the 2nd pylon + cannon and are still ahead.
Either scenario you gain an advantage, and both are easy. This is one reason why early forge is used against Z in the first place. Saying a cannon rush is hard is ridiculous, it just depends on how your opponent acts towards your scouting probe.
It's hard to pull off against players of this caliber. Just watch pro league and see how many times they get snuffed. You always have to be on top of the army man. Same rule applies for the probe.
What do you consider to be a snuff? What happened that made it unsuccessful? Did the probe get followed and he tried anyway? How can you fail a cannon rush if the 2 pylon wall is finished?
On November 11 2013 04:30 Faruko wrote: Finally a player plays Protoss with its "full" potential and the community bashes him... SC2 its losing ground not because sOs beat JD with clever gameplay mechanics and tactics, and outsmarting him to the point of making JD looking like a fool falling each and every time in sOs plan, but because the community wants every match to be "do not chesee --> turtle for 30 minutes with harras to get a little edge --> deathball --> fight"
This is getting silly, nobody said ANYTHING when JD baneling busted Maru 2 (or was 3?) games in a row, because it was "The Dong", but suddenly comes a player, that TL defines as a "faceless korean" which actually shows how much does some people know about SC2 (watch Proleague, please...), and put JD to shame with his mind games and unorthodox play style and now everything is "SC2 is dead, RIP SC2, JD SOOO MUCH BETTER"
If i were playing for a 100k i would do everything in my power to win, and so will everyone
People dislike the cannon rush cheese because it is so easy to do and has such a huge impact, and it isnt really scoutable. You just have to blindly counter it, which costs you minerals and him nothing. If there weren't cheese spots behind minerals nobody would care. People also feel a bit cheated since in 3 (4?) of the games sOs did some kind of hidden cheese.
Yes, it is him playing to win... but whenever something is lopsided against our favorite we dislike it. People dont like one round boxing matches, it is no different here.
JD shouldve played a lot better, I dont know what he was thinking. Ultralisks on akilon is dumb. Base trading with ultralisks on akilon is horrendous. Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2? It just really felt like he couldve done a lot better.
Against top caliber players? Any type of cannon rush isn't easy to pull off at all. Why because they're pretty good at stopping it/scouting it. sOs got snuffed many times yet he still made shit work.
"Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2?" A cannon rush is easy because either: 1) You just don't do it because his drone is on you 2) You do it because his drone isn't on you If you do it and he pulls 10 drones to stop it, you cancel the 2nd pylon + cannon and are still ahead.
Either scenario you gain an advantage, and both are easy. This is one reason why early forge is used against Z in the first place. Saying a cannon rush is hard is ridiculous, it just depends on how your opponent acts towards your scouting probe.
you even watch pro plays ? 90% of the canon rush i see gets destroyed and then protoss is so far behind that he loses, even sos canon rush nr1 was a bad canonrush who went overall better for jd ...
90%? I seem to remember it working more times than that. I didn't see most of game 1 (I was watching from work), but in what way did it fail? He got the cancel on the natural, didnt he?
On November 11 2013 04:07 Crackpot wrote: RIP SC2?
Is it just me or anyone else thinks that StarCraft 2 looses credibility? I mean, this year we had like 4 different "best players",.. how could that be ? To be honest, I dont think SOS is THE best player right now, I think everyone else of the participants (with few exceptions) could have won the global finals. From now on SOS will fall just like every other "major tournament"-winner,.. because like all the other champions (besides Innovation in Season 1) noone truely was THE BEST.
what does that mean? -->If more and more different players win major tournaments,winning a tournament seems to become more and more worthless, because everyone can win it, you don't have to be the very best.
Is it Blizzards "we patch everything" - mentality ? Or just "normal" because HotS isn't even a year old? I have no idea, but its not good for the sport.
What's the best team in soccer?
Funnily enough, you will find that such questions rarely have simple answers. It might have been in Brood War, but there are many sports where there is no undisputed #1 that get along just fine.
And this whole "you don't have to be the best to win" is annoying, stupid and offensive all at once. Of course you have to be the best. You have to play better and smarter than everyone else to win. Or you lose. That's how the game works. If you didn't know sOs well enough before the tournament, I'm sorry, but your argument is and has always been bullshit.
Funnily the best soccer Team is Barcelona and munich.
Seems like i hit some sos fanboy. to make things clear.. SOS won cause he played better than jd, i dont deny that.
And yes i saw SOS playing before the tournament. In my eyes he never was a pro deserving a championship, but there are many like him, maybe his mindgames(and they where pretty good) worked Vs jd now. but in pure mechanics, micro and strategies i see much better players than him.Dont get me wrong, I dont blame SOS for winning something, I blame the game or maybeblizzard or the tournemants or maybe every other progamer for letting stuff like that happen. you see , i dont know what to blame because i have no idea what is cousing this inconsistency.
Peace
Blaming Blizzard or every other pro gamer letting stuff like that happen? Rofl. Somehow I doubt you ever watched PL, but I don't blame you. Many people apparently didn't. You have a lot of options when it comes to what you can watch and when to watch. The PL timeslot isn't really friendly for many people. Anywho, there are quite a few of Protosses that can give you a run for your money (and that's one of the reasons they do so well because these guys have their own variations which makes it hard to play against unless you know what's coming) and guess what? sHy showed us plenty of new options and this goes back to PL. It's funny because I remember so many people would rag on whatever Protoss was doing well atm. People would shit on players like MC (including your 'idols'), PartinG and so on. The fact sOs can execute such strategies and sometimes they don't work out so well in the beginning and still hold his own. I think that says something. When the guy should probably be behind. He isn't behind. That my friend is scary. Not only that he's moving onto another front and using unit compositions that are so risky. If you don't nail it. You should be fucked. Also those storms man. MC storm meet sOs storm.
I like proleague, especially the allkill format because it reveals true strength and weaknesses of all players.Talking about sOs There he could assasinate other players pretty well, but when it comes to bo5 against innovation for example, he playes all weird without any self -confidence and poor mechanics/executions.
Maybe sOs wasn't the who I expected to be the champion, and maybe he wasn't one of the the players I was rooting for to win, but he played one hell of a tournament. He beat some of my favorites along the way (HerO TT, Polt TT, Bomber TT) but got to give the guy TONS of credit for his run.
I won't call him the best in the world, but he had an incredible tournament.
On November 11 2013 04:07 Crackpot wrote: RIP SC2?
Is it just me or anyone else thinks that StarCraft 2 looses credibility? I mean, this year we had like 4 different "best players",.. how could that be ? To be honest, I dont think SOS is THE best player right now, I think everyone else of the participants (with few exceptions) could have won the global finals. From now on SOS will fall just like every other "major tournament"-winner,.. because like all the other champions (besides Innovation in Season 1) noone truely was THE BEST.
what does that mean? -->If more and more different players win major tournaments,winning a tournament seems to become more and more worthless, because everyone can win it, you don't have to be the very best.
Is it Blizzards "we patch everything" - mentality ? Or just "normal" because HotS isn't even a year old? I have no idea, but its not good for the sport.
What's the best team in soccer?
Funnily enough, you will find that such questions rarely have simple answers. It might have been in Brood War, but there are many sports where there is no undisputed #1 that get along just fine.
And this whole "you don't have to be the best to win" is annoying, stupid and offensive all at once. Of course you have to be the best. You have to play better and smarter than everyone else to win. Or you lose. That's how the game works. If you didn't know sOs well enough before the tournament, I'm sorry, but your argument is and has always been bullshit.
Funnily the best soccer Team is Barcelona and munich.
Seems like i hit some sos fanboy. to make things clear.. SOS won cause he played better than jd, i dont deny that.
And yes i saw SOS playing before the tournament. In my eyes he never was a pro deserving a championship, but there are many like him, maybe his mindgames(and they where pretty good) worked Vs jd now. but in pure mechanics, micro and strategies i see much better players than him.Dont get me wrong, I dont blame SOS for winning something, I blame the game or maybeblizzard or the tournemants or maybe every other progamer for letting stuff like that happen. you see , i dont know what to blame because i have no idea what is cousing this inconsistency.
Peace
Blaming Blizzard or every other pro gamer letting stuff like that happen? Rofl. Somehow I doubt you ever watched PL, but I don't blame you. Many people apparently didn't. You have a lot of options when it comes to what you can watch and when to watch. The PL timeslot isn't really friendly for many people. Anywho, there are quite a few of Protosses that can give you a run for your money (and that's one of the reasons they do so well because these guys have their own variations which makes it hard to play against unless you know what's coming) and guess what? sHy showed us plenty of new options and this goes back to PL. It's funny because I remember so many people would rag on whatever Protoss was doing well atm. People would shit on players like MC (including your 'idols'), PartinG and so on. The fact sOs can execute such strategies and sometimes they don't work out so well in the beginning and still hold his own. I think that says something. When the guy should probably be behind. He isn't behind. That my friend is scary. Not only that he's moving onto another front and using unit compositions that are so risky. If you don't nail it. You should be fucked. Also those storms man. MC storm meet sOs storm.
I like proleague, especially the allkill format because it reveals true strength and weaknesses of all players.Talking about sOs There he could assasinate other players pretty well, but when it comes to bo5 against innovation for example, he playes all weird without any self -confidence and poor mechanics/executions.
So in favor of your argument you just decide to forget that sOs played 2 group stages, and 2 players in a Bo5 (Alicia 3-0 and SoulKey 3-2) without any selfconfidence and poor mechanics/executions, before losing to Innovation against 4-0 ?
On November 11 2013 06:41 LockeTazeline wrote: Including all streams, probably peaked around 300k concurrent viewers. Definitely lived up to the hype of #1 tournament of 2013 imo.
On November 10 2013 20:04 shadymmj wrote: I foresaw this problem a long time ago. jaedong was the "people's champion", but honestly the guy has done very very well and second place is still a great achievement. of course, that makes Shy the supreme master of sc2, except nobody thinks so because of the way he won. Still, there's probably no excuse to NOT expect cheese from him if you have studied him at all.
The trouble is that Shy is not a very popular player with a consistent string of results. He's probably about average in terms of fanbase. He's brilliant but irregular, and in this tournament he was the former. Of course I also think he's actually a very innovative player and deserving of the title, but that isn't really the point.
The point is that this "grand final" answered no questions. No one thinks Shy isn't unbeatable, least of all me. He doesn't have the "aura" of invincibility or the statistics that elevate him to a S-class player. In fact many people still think Dear is better than him. So what's the point of winning (other than cash goodies) if people won't even acknowledge you as the best? You will never become a legend like that.
Either people have to acknowledge him as THE BEST player of recent times (i hesitate to use the bonjwa term, but really that is what people are looking for), or we will have to find a new way of running this thing.
wow the amount of ignorance in this post is mindblowing
sHy without consistent string of results? Instrumental player in year-long SPL's campaign, various high finishes in KR, 2nd in the first WCS Jaedong? free ride to the finals for playing NA and DH. Yeah North America and Dreamhack, and he didnt even win shit. Funny how people doubt Dear or sOs who have been posting strong results all year long in the hardest competitions instead of someone who happened to have an insane weekend. I would consider this a fairy tale if Jaedong wins actually
I have flashback to the Super Tournament when Polt rolfstomped and laughed on fanboy tears with $100K. The point of winning is getting top money and having your name with a gold medal icon in liquidpedia. Goodluck become a legendary kong.
agreed please watch SPL and then make comments you fanboys sOs deserves that champion
On November 11 2013 04:30 Faruko wrote: Finally a player plays Protoss with its "full" potential and the community bashes him... SC2 its losing ground not because sOs beat JD with clever gameplay mechanics and tactics, and outsmarting him to the point of making JD looking like a fool falling each and every time in sOs plan, but because the community wants every match to be "do not chesee --> turtle for 30 minutes with harras to get a little edge --> deathball --> fight"
This is getting silly, nobody said ANYTHING when JD baneling busted Maru 2 (or was 3?) games in a row, because it was "The Dong", but suddenly comes a player, that TL defines as a "faceless korean" which actually shows how much does some people know about SC2 (watch Proleague, please...), and put JD to shame with his mind games and unorthodox play style and now everything is "SC2 is dead, RIP SC2, JD SOOO MUCH BETTER"
If i were playing for a 100k i would do everything in my power to win, and so will everyone
People dislike the cannon rush cheese because it is so easy to do and has such a huge impact, and it isnt really scoutable. You just have to blindly counter it, which costs you minerals and him nothing. If there weren't cheese spots behind minerals nobody would care. People also feel a bit cheated since in 3 (4?) of the games sOs did some kind of hidden cheese.
Yes, it is him playing to win... but whenever something is lopsided against our favorite we dislike it. People dont like one round boxing matches, it is no different here.
JD shouldve played a lot better, I dont know what he was thinking. Ultralisks on akilon is dumb. Base trading with ultralisks on akilon is horrendous. Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2? It just really felt like he couldve done a lot better.
Against top caliber players? Any type of cannon rush isn't easy to pull off at all. Why because they're pretty good at stopping it/scouting it. sOs got snuffed many times yet he still made shit work.
"Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2?" A cannon rush is easy because either: 1) You just don't do it because his drone is on you 2) You do it because his drone isn't on you If you do it and he pulls 10 drones to stop it, you cancel the 2nd pylon + cannon and are still ahead.
Either scenario you gain an advantage, and both are easy. This is one reason why early forge is used against Z in the first place. Saying a cannon rush is hard is ridiculous, it just depends on how your opponent acts towards your scouting probe.
It's hard to pull off against players of this caliber. Just watch pro league and see how many times they get snuffed. You always have to be on top of the army man. Same rule applies for the probe.
What do you consider to be a snuff? What happened that made it unsuccessful? Did the probe get followed and he tried anyway? How can you fail a cannon rush if the 2 pylon wall is finished?
On November 11 2013 04:30 Faruko wrote: Finally a player plays Protoss with its "full" potential and the community bashes him... SC2 its losing ground not because sOs beat JD with clever gameplay mechanics and tactics, and outsmarting him to the point of making JD looking like a fool falling each and every time in sOs plan, but because the community wants every match to be "do not chesee --> turtle for 30 minutes with harras to get a little edge --> deathball --> fight"
This is getting silly, nobody said ANYTHING when JD baneling busted Maru 2 (or was 3?) games in a row, because it was "The Dong", but suddenly comes a player, that TL defines as a "faceless korean" which actually shows how much does some people know about SC2 (watch Proleague, please...), and put JD to shame with his mind games and unorthodox play style and now everything is "SC2 is dead, RIP SC2, JD SOOO MUCH BETTER"
If i were playing for a 100k i would do everything in my power to win, and so will everyone
People dislike the cannon rush cheese because it is so easy to do and has such a huge impact, and it isnt really scoutable. You just have to blindly counter it, which costs you minerals and him nothing. If there weren't cheese spots behind minerals nobody would care. People also feel a bit cheated since in 3 (4?) of the games sOs did some kind of hidden cheese.
Yes, it is him playing to win... but whenever something is lopsided against our favorite we dislike it. People dont like one round boxing matches, it is no different here.
JD shouldve played a lot better, I dont know what he was thinking. Ultralisks on akilon is dumb. Base trading with ultralisks on akilon is horrendous. Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2? It just really felt like he couldve done a lot better.
Against top caliber players? Any type of cannon rush isn't easy to pull off at all. Why because they're pretty good at stopping it/scouting it. sOs got snuffed many times yet he still made shit work.
"Why did he not follow the probe with a drone to stop cannon rush on game 2?" A cannon rush is easy because either: 1) You just don't do it because his drone is on you 2) You do it because his drone isn't on you If you do it and he pulls 10 drones to stop it, you cancel the 2nd pylon + cannon and are still ahead.
Either scenario you gain an advantage, and both are easy. This is one reason why early forge is used against Z in the first place. Saying a cannon rush is hard is ridiculous, it just depends on how your opponent acts towards your scouting probe.
you even watch pro plays ? 90% of the canon rush i see gets destroyed and then protoss is so far behind that he loses, even sos canon rush nr1 was a bad canonrush who went overall better for jd ...
90%? I seem to remember it working more times than that. I didn't see most of game 1 (I was watching from work), but in what way did it fail? He got the cancel on the natural, didnt he?
Snuff as in the play got shutdown. You either cancel/abandon it right away or you will be at a disadvantage. Anyway, we're not just talking about the cannon rushes on multiple fronts. We're talking about the proxy oracles and every other curve ball sHy throws. "You see my two stargates, fine. I'm going to abandon it before I put anymore investment in it." Good thing Jaedong didn't overreact and waited patiently to see where he should invest that larva. We're starting to see him use his larva more efficiently. Going back to the oracles. They weren't too effective in terms of their harass and heck sHy lost them, but he did get good scouting information and forced the Terran to play defensive. Once again, high end players don't fall victim to such plays so easily and it's very hard to make such strats effective. Last season in PL we saw many players try to do such things and what do you know. The other guys caught on very quickly. They're very good at scouting such stuff man.
On November 11 2013 04:07 Crackpot wrote: RIP SC2?
Is it just me or anyone else thinks that StarCraft 2 looses credibility? I mean, this year we had like 4 different "best players",.. how could that be ? To be honest, I dont think SOS is THE best player right now, I think everyone else of the participants (with few exceptions) could have won the global finals. From now on SOS will fall just like every other "major tournament"-winner,.. because like all the other champions (besides Innovation in Season 1) noone truely was THE BEST.
what does that mean? -->If more and more different players win major tournaments,winning a tournament seems to become more and more worthless, because everyone can win it, you don't have to be the very best.
Is it Blizzards "we patch everything" - mentality ? Or just "normal" because HotS isn't even a year old? I have no idea, but its not good for the sport.
What's the best team in soccer?
Funnily enough, you will find that such questions rarely have simple answers. It might have been in Brood War, but there are many sports where there is no undisputed #1 that get along just fine.
And this whole "you don't have to be the best to win" is annoying, stupid and offensive all at once. Of course you have to be the best. You have to play better and smarter than everyone else to win. Or you lose. That's how the game works. If you didn't know sOs well enough before the tournament, I'm sorry, but your argument is and has always been bullshit.
Funnily the best soccer Team is Barcelona and munich.
Seems like i hit some sos fanboy. to make things clear.. SOS won cause he played better than jd, i dont deny that.
And yes i saw SOS playing before the tournament. In my eyes he never was a pro deserving a championship, but there are many like him, maybe his mindgames(and they where pretty good) worked Vs jd now. but in pure mechanics, micro and strategies i see much better players than him.Dont get me wrong, I dont blame SOS for winning something, I blame the game or maybeblizzard or the tournemants or maybe every other progamer for letting stuff like that happen. you see , i dont know what to blame because i have no idea what is cousing this inconsistency.
Peace
Blaming Blizzard or every other pro gamer letting stuff like that happen? Rofl. Somehow I doubt you ever watched PL, but I don't blame you. Many people apparently didn't. You have a lot of options when it comes to what you can watch and when to watch. The PL timeslot isn't really friendly for many people. Anywho, there are quite a few of Protosses that can give you a run for your money (and that's one of the reasons they do so well because these guys have their own variations which makes it hard to play against unless you know what's coming) and guess what? sHy showed us plenty of new options and this goes back to PL. It's funny because I remember so many people would rag on whatever Protoss was doing well atm. People would shit on players like MC (including your 'idols'), PartinG and so on. The fact sOs can execute such strategies and sometimes they don't work out so well in the beginning and still hold his own. I think that says something. When the guy should probably be behind. He isn't behind. That my friend is scary. Not only that he's moving onto another front and using unit compositions that are so risky. If you don't nail it. You should be fucked. Also those storms man. MC storm meet sOs storm.
I like proleague, especially the allkill format because it reveals true strength and weaknesses of all players.Talking about sOs There he could assasinate other players pretty well, but when it comes to bo5 against innovation for example, he playes all weird without any self -confidence and poor mechanics/executions.
There's the problem. Sounds like you are putting too much weight on that series. That's all it was. One series; one moment in time. If we look back at what he did in PL and the fact he was tied with JangBi with the best record in high pressure situations (they were tied at 5-1 when all the money was on the line) and his regular season record. Well shit. They were pretty effective. If there is a player I'm missing right now it's JangBi because I would have liked to see what he really could do with this game. He would definitely be up there with a lot of the other Protoss players atm. It's funny because there was a period in BW PL where you would expect JangBi to proxy and he did.
One thing I don't see changing anytime soon is Protoss players getting a lot of flack for the way they play. Like I said earlier, if you go back to the other points in time where a Protoss was doing well you'd always see other folks ragging on their playstyle. Now that we have a bunch of them and they all have their different tics? It's making it very hard for the other players. This isn't Brood Lord/Infestor all over again. It's very different unit compositions and timings that make it hard to adjust to.
One thing I don't see changing anytime soon is Protoss players getting a lot of flack for the way they play. Like I said earlier, if you go back to the other points in time where a Protoss was doing well you'd always see other folks ragging on their playstyle. Now that we have a bunch of them and they all have their different tics? It's making it very hard for the other players. This isn't Brood Lord/Infestor all over again. It's very different unit compositions and timings that make it hard to adjust to.
Hate on protoss gets really obnoxious sometimes. The memory of the protoss deathball days might still be in their minds, and they retain the hatred which is now applied to the new generation of protoss pros who actually play differently from each other.
Despite Jaedong playing brilliantly in his games against Dear and Maru(game 5 against Dear was perfectly timed), he fell short against sOs. I'm a Jaedong fan but also part sOs fan after his games against Innovation back in season 1 finals(game 4 in particular). I think sOs deserved and earned that win over Jaedong. Jaedong gave away a won game in game 1 just because he had a certain mindset and couldn't be flexible with his plan. Honestly, he had 3 vipers, maxed roach+hydra and just abducted two colossi and killed them. sOs was down to one colossi, a pack of hts and mostly sentries. All Jaedong had to do was abduct the last colossi and a-move(moving out of storms if needed) and he would've won. Then he gets maxed on ultras while sOs starts producing double immortals. Eventually he decides to base trade and what's worse is that originally sOs started double phoenix production! He saw the spire, panicked, made another stargate and started making phoenixes. If Jaedong just attacked with his roach+hydra army then remxed on ultras and a-moved, he would've taken that game.
Game 2 was a roll, it's not even worth mentioning. sOs completely dismantled Jaedong. COMPLETELY! Game 3 was just Jaedong showing his late game and such. sOs got dismantled although Jaedong PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE learn to scout. Seeing that hidden base for sOs not get scouted the whole game even though all it would take is for Jaedong to switch move a ling towards there was painful. For someone who is called the tyrant, lacking of scouting during most of his games was quite apparent and is a major weakness of his. Game 4 was wtf for me. He scouted the robo, the wrap prism and saw the immortals then he decided to engage in a small choke against time wrap ><; Fail game on Jaedong's part. Game 5 was one of the saddest of all. Again, Jaedong not scouting around meant he missed the pylon and all sOs had to do was move zealots into the exp to take out 10+ drones. Worse of all, Jaedong checks and he STILL can't find the pylon until towards the end of the game...
As I mentioned, I'm a big Jaedong fan and cheered for him in all his tournaments(the ones I got to watch) and he did not deserve to win that last one. He may be a mechanical monster but as someone mentioned, it's like he follows a script. He almost always goes mutas in all his vP matches. I can understand vT for drops and in general, but in vP, almost always mutas. His weakness is that if his gameplan doesn't go as planned, he will lose the game and that he doesn't scout. sOs was brilliant in the games. Dismantling Jaedong in that second game was amazing then just straight up beating him in situations which aren't hard to defend against(game 4 and 5) was lol worthy. He is indeed quite a player and hope to see more of him in the future.
PS I think Jaedong played against sOs in a previous finals or something and lost to him 2-1 or something. sOs's style is the perfect counter to Jaedong's imo.
Was a pretty sweet grand finals but would have been much better had the games been closer towards the end. Really wanted JD to win but congrats to sOs he earned it.
On November 11 2013 11:43 BigFan wrote: Despite Jaedong playing brilliantly in his games against Dear and Maru(game 5 against Dear was perfectly timed), he fell short against sOs. I'm a Jaedong fan but also part sOs fan after his games against Innovation back in season 1 finals(game 4 in particular). I think sOs deserved and earned that win over Jaedong. Jaedong gave away a won game in game 1 just because he had a certain mindset and couldn't be flexible with his plan. Honestly, he had 3 vipers, maxed roach+hydra and just abducted two colossi and killed them. sOs was down to one colossi, a pack of hts and mostly sentries. All Jaedong had to do was abduct the last colossi and a-move(moving out of storms if needed) and he would've won. Then he gets maxed on ultras while sOs starts producing double immortals. Eventually he decides to base trade and what's worse is that originally sOs started double phoenix production! He saw the spire, panicked, made another stargate and started making phoenixes. If Jaedong just attacked with his roach+hydra army then remxed on ultras and a-moved, he would've taken that game.
Game 2 was a roll, it's not even worth mentioning. sOs completely dismantled Jaedong. COMPLETELY! Game 3 was just Jaedong showing his late game and such. sOs got dismantled although Jaedong PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE learn to scout. Seeing that hidden base for sOs not get scouted the whole game even though all it would take is for Jaedong to switch move a ling towards there was painful. For someone who is called the tyrant, lacking of scouting during most of his games was quite apparent and is a major weakness of his. Game 4 was wtf for me. He scouted the robo, the wrap prism and saw the immortals then he decided to engage in a small choke against time wrap ><; Fail game on Jaedong's part. Game 5 was one of the saddest of all. Again, Jaedong not scouting around meant he missed the pylon and all sOs had to do was move zealots into the exp to take out 10+ drones. Worse of all, Jaedong checks and he STILL can't find the pylon until towards the end of the game...
As I mentioned, I'm a big Jaedong fan and cheered for him in all his tournaments(the ones I got to watch) and he did not deserve to win that last one. He may be a mechanical monster but as someone mentioned, it's like he follows a script. He almost always goes mutas in all his vP matches. I can understand vT for drops and in general, but in vP, almost always mutas. His weakness is that if his gameplan doesn't go as planned, he will lose the game and that he doesn't scout. sOs was brilliant in the games. Dismantling Jaedong in that second game was amazing then just straight up beating him in situations which aren't hard to defend against(game 4 and 5) was lol worthy. He is indeed quite a player and hope to see more of him in the future.
PS I think Jaedong played against sOs in a previous finals or something and lost to him 2-1 or something. sOs's style is the perfect counter to Jaedong's imo.
Nice analysis Bigfan. Jaedong certainly should have won Game 1 major fail not a moveing after taking out colossi - by same token sOs should have won game 3 with a simple a move 8 gate at about 11 min. Score would be same 4-1.
On November 11 2013 04:30 Faruko wrote: Finally a player plays Protoss with its "full" potential and the community bashes him... SC2 its losing ground not because sOs beat JD with clever gameplay mechanics and tactics, and outsmarting him to the point of making JD looking like a fool falling each and every time in sOs plan, but because the community wants every match to be "do not chesee --> turtle for 30 minutes with harras to get a little edge --> deathball --> fight"
This is getting silly, nobody said ANYTHING when JD baneling busted Maru 2 (or was 3?) games in a row, because it was "The Dong", but suddenly comes a player, that TL defines as a "faceless korean" which actually shows how much does some people know about SC2 (watch Proleague, please...), and put JD to shame with his mind games and unorthodox play style and now everything is "SC2 is dead, RIP SC2, JD SOOO MUCH BETTER"
If i were playing for a 100k i would do everything in my power to win, and so will everyone
Blame every single caster, personality and host for not being able to create enough hype for every player. Go back two weeks(?) to the Season Finals in Toronto, every player got cheered for it was epic.
Meanwhile at Blizzcon it was the standard " I'm only going to cheer for my favorite player and no one else". The crowd reactions when Jaekong defended/attacked something was night and day when compared to sOs, it was the good guy vs that evil bosses little brother and the casters even if they tried at times got carried away sadly.
Blizzard tried with the quick tournament recap for the players but that was the end, even at the analystdesk it was Jaedong..Jaedong.....oh yeah and Jaedong.
I wonder how many times we'll have to repeat it to have change.
Oh yes such a shame that people wanted jaedong to win and cheered for him instead of his opponent.
Obvious you didn't get what I was saying, if you think that it should always be everyone against one then it's fine but if you want it all to expand you can't have everyone getting together for one player.
On November 11 2013 13:20 redviper wrote: So happy Jaedong lost. And in such humiliating fashion.
Grats sOs, very very smartly and imaginatively played.
Come on man there's no need for that. Isn't it just better to say something like, "I'm glad sOs won, and so convincingly!" than to just bash on JD? Don't be that guy man.
On November 11 2013 04:30 Faruko wrote: Finally a player plays Protoss with its "full" potential and the community bashes him... SC2 its losing ground not because sOs beat JD with clever gameplay mechanics and tactics, and outsmarting him to the point of making JD looking like a fool falling each and every time in sOs plan, but because the community wants every match to be "do not chesee --> turtle for 30 minutes with harras to get a little edge --> deathball --> fight"
This is getting silly, nobody said ANYTHING when JD baneling busted Maru 2 (or was 3?) games in a row, because it was "The Dong", but suddenly comes a player, that TL defines as a "faceless korean" which actually shows how much does some people know about SC2 (watch Proleague, please...), and put JD to shame with his mind games and unorthodox play style and now everything is "SC2 is dead, RIP SC2, JD SOOO MUCH BETTER"
If i were playing for a 100k i would do everything in my power to win, and so will everyone
Blame every single caster, personality and host for not being able to create enough hype for every player. Go back two weeks(?) to the Season Finals in Toronto, every player got cheered for it was epic.
Meanwhile at Blizzcon it was the standard " I'm only going to cheer for my favorite player and no one else". The crowd reactions when Jaekong defended/attacked something was night and day when compared to sOs, it was the good guy vs that evil bosses little brother and the casters even if they tried at times got carried away sadly.
Blizzard tried with the quick tournament recap for the players but that was the end, even at the analystdesk it was Jaedong..Jaedong.....oh yeah and Jaedong.
I wonder how many times we'll have to repeat it to have change.
Oh yes such a shame that people wanted jaedong to win and cheered for him instead of his opponent.
Wait you like Jaedong? But he left a Kespa team for a no doubt inferior foreign team. I thought you hated that stuff man.
This just means Jaedong will be even more motivated to win DH. I hope he wins that since sOs won't be there to stop him. Innovation will be there but we all know JD severely out classes innovation in every way. JD has better micro, macro, multi tasking, and so on.
On November 11 2013 15:00 ladysman09 wrote: This just means Jaedong will be even more motivated to win DH. I hope he wins that since sOs won't be there to stop him. Innovation will be there but we all know JD severely out classes innovation in every way. JD has better micro, macro, multi tasking, and so on.
the new champion every weekend talk is definitely an interesting one and just goes to show how volatile sc2 is at the top level. if this tournament happened again this weekend with the same players i can guarantee you we would see different final results.
the level of concentration required to make no mistakes and play perfectly to win game after game is just too high. this is why it is so impressive when you see repeat champions that stay on top for long periods of time and it is why no other player will get the same level of respect i give to a player like MVP until they can achieve similar levels of dominance.
On November 10 2013 12:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Great article! sOs' mind games really destroyed Jaedong's play. I'm also surprised that Plexa found a picture of sOs kissing the trophy that wasn't completely destroyed by confetti.
PrintScreen Master~
I have some good pictures. I was 10 ft from him in the 2nd row from the catwalk. Hope to get some up in a thread soon.
On November 11 2013 09:32 lowercase wrote: To all the haters, note that sOs played with some next-level mindgames that series. He deserved the win, even if we were rooting for Jaedong.
After game 3 Jaedong was rattled hard.
I was a bit upset they did not give him more time between his semis and finals. Where was the pre-show? Figured we would get tempo up there or something. Or more analysis.
The only game Jaedong won he thought it was way ahead where he really was not. Even that game shook him a bit. Zealots acting as ForceFields with only 2 gas? Great move. sOs brought some creative play.
What a way to end this WCS season. It's done so much good for the community. When we used to see negative threads pop up every minute on reddit a few weeks ago, the season 3 finals and then Blizzcon really have silenced them with flawless production, amazing hype and storylines and great games. I loved getting the chance to be a part of it and to contribute my part. Bring on 2014!
On November 11 2013 17:47 DarkLordOlli wrote: What a way to end this WCS season. It's done so much good for the community. When we used to see negative threads pop up every minute on reddit a few weeks ago, the season 3 finals and then Blizzcon really have silenced them with flawless production, amazing hype and storylines and great games. I loved getting the chance to be a part of it and to contribute my part. Bring on 2014!
no positivity pls sOs not real champion 0/10 too volatile dead game etc
On November 11 2013 17:47 DarkLordOlli wrote: What a way to end this WCS season. It's done so much good for the community. When we used to see negative threads pop up every minute on reddit a few weeks ago, the season 3 finals and then Blizzcon really have silenced them with flawless production, amazing hype and storylines and great games. I loved getting the chance to be a part of it and to contribute my part. Bring on 2014!
no positivity pls sOs not real champion 0/10 too volatile dead game etc
On November 11 2013 17:47 DarkLordOlli wrote: What a way to end this WCS season. It's done so much good for the community. When we used to see negative threads pop up every minute on reddit a few weeks ago, the season 3 finals and then Blizzcon really have silenced them with flawless production, amazing hype and storylines and great games. I loved getting the chance to be a part of it and to contribute my part. Bring on 2014!
no positivity pls sOs not real champion 0/10 too volatile dead game etc
On November 11 2013 04:07 Crackpot wrote: RIP SC2?
Is it just me or anyone else thinks that StarCraft 2 looses credibility? I mean, this year we had like 4 different "best players",.. how could that be ? To be honest, I dont think SOS is THE best player right now, I think everyone else of the participants (with few exceptions) could have won the global finals. From now on SOS will fall just like every other "major tournament"-winner,.. because like all the other champions (besides Innovation in Season 1) noone truely was THE BEST.
what does that mean? -->If more and more different players win major tournaments,winning a tournament seems to become more and more worthless, because everyone can win it, you don't have to be the very best.
Is it Blizzards "we patch everything" - mentality ? Or just "normal" because HotS isn't even a year old? I have no idea, but its not good for the sport.
What's the best team in soccer?
Funnily enough, you will find that such questions rarely have simple answers. It might have been in Brood War, but there are many sports where there is no undisputed #1 that get along just fine.
And this whole "you don't have to be the best to win" is annoying, stupid and offensive all at once. Of course you have to be the best. You have to play better and smarter than everyone else to win. Or you lose. That's how the game works. If you didn't know sOs well enough before the tournament, I'm sorry, but your argument is and has always been bullshit.
Funnily the best soccer Team is Barcelona and munich.
Seems like i hit some sos fanboy. to make things clear.. SOS won cause he played better than jd, i dont deny that.
And yes i saw SOS playing before the tournament. In my eyes he never was a pro deserving a championship, but there are many like him, maybe his mindgames(and they where pretty good) worked Vs jd now. but in pure mechanics, micro and strategies i see much better players than him.Dont get me wrong, I dont blame SOS for winning something, I blame the game or maybeblizzard or the tournemants or maybe every other progamer for letting stuff like that happen. you see , i dont know what to blame because i have no idea what is cousing this inconsistency.
Peace
Blaming Blizzard or every other pro gamer letting stuff like that happen? Rofl. Somehow I doubt you ever watched PL, but I don't blame you. Many people apparently didn't. You have a lot of options when it comes to what you can watch and when to watch. The PL timeslot isn't really friendly for many people. Anywho, there are quite a few of Protosses that can give you a run for your money (and that's one of the reasons they do so well because these guys have their own variations which makes it hard to play against unless you know what's coming) and guess what? sHy showed us plenty of new options and this goes back to PL. It's funny because I remember so many people would rag on whatever Protoss was doing well atm. People would shit on players like MC (including your 'idols'), PartinG and so on. The fact sOs can execute such strategies and sometimes they don't work out so well in the beginning and still hold his own. I think that says something. When the guy should probably be behind. He isn't behind. That my friend is scary. Not only that he's moving onto another front and using unit compositions that are so risky. If you don't nail it. You should be fucked. Also those storms man. MC storm meet sOs storm.
I like proleague, especially the allkill format because it reveals true strength and weaknesses of all players.Talking about sOs There he could assasinate other players pretty well, but when it comes to bo5 against innovation for example, he playes all weird without any self -confidence and poor mechanics/executions.
So in favor of your argument you just decide to forget that sOs played 2 group stages, and 2 players in a Bo5 (Alicia 3-0 and SoulKey 3-2) without any selfconfidence and poor mechanics/executions, before losing to Innovation against 4-0 ?
Alicia was no match for any korea-korean player this tournament, and Soulkey was his teammate, thats why I think he wasn't afraid of fighting him. But in the game vs Innovation you see him loosing everything he won against Soulkey, and I bet with you, in future he will show us more of that epic fails, I just dont think he is a consistent player, thats my opinion.
On November 11 2013 04:07 Crackpot wrote: RIP SC2?
Is it just me or anyone else thinks that StarCraft 2 looses credibility? I mean, this year we had like 4 different "best players",.. how could that be ? To be honest, I dont think SOS is THE best player right now, I think everyone else of the participants (with few exceptions) could have won the global finals. From now on SOS will fall just like every other "major tournament"-winner,.. because like all the other champions (besides Innovation in Season 1) noone truely was THE BEST.
what does that mean? -->If more and more different players win major tournaments,winning a tournament seems to become more and more worthless, because everyone can win it, you don't have to be the very best.
Is it Blizzards "we patch everything" - mentality ? Or just "normal" because HotS isn't even a year old? I have no idea, but its not good for the sport.
What's the best team in soccer?
Funnily enough, you will find that such questions rarely have simple answers. It might have been in Brood War, but there are many sports where there is no undisputed #1 that get along just fine.
And this whole "you don't have to be the best to win" is annoying, stupid and offensive all at once. Of course you have to be the best. You have to play better and smarter than everyone else to win. Or you lose. That's how the game works. If you didn't know sOs well enough before the tournament, I'm sorry, but your argument is and has always been bullshit.
Funnily the best soccer Team is Barcelona and munich.
Seems like i hit some sos fanboy. to make things clear.. SOS won cause he played better than jd, i dont deny that.
And yes i saw SOS playing before the tournament. In my eyes he never was a pro deserving a championship, but there are many like him, maybe his mindgames(and they where pretty good) worked Vs jd now. but in pure mechanics, micro and strategies i see much better players than him.Dont get me wrong, I dont blame SOS for winning something, I blame the game or maybeblizzard or the tournemants or maybe every other progamer for letting stuff like that happen. you see , i dont know what to blame because i have no idea what is cousing this inconsistency.
Peace
Blaming Blizzard or every other pro gamer letting stuff like that happen? Rofl. Somehow I doubt you ever watched PL, but I don't blame you. Many people apparently didn't. You have a lot of options when it comes to what you can watch and when to watch. The PL timeslot isn't really friendly for many people. Anywho, there are quite a few of Protosses that can give you a run for your money (and that's one of the reasons they do so well because these guys have their own variations which makes it hard to play against unless you know what's coming) and guess what? sHy showed us plenty of new options and this goes back to PL. It's funny because I remember so many people would rag on whatever Protoss was doing well atm. People would shit on players like MC (including your 'idols'), PartinG and so on. The fact sOs can execute such strategies and sometimes they don't work out so well in the beginning and still hold his own. I think that says something. When the guy should probably be behind. He isn't behind. That my friend is scary. Not only that he's moving onto another front and using unit compositions that are so risky. If you don't nail it. You should be fucked. Also those storms man. MC storm meet sOs storm.
I like proleague, especially the allkill format because it reveals true strength and weaknesses of all players.Talking about sOs There he could assasinate other players pretty well, but when it comes to bo5 against innovation for example, he playes all weird without any self -confidence and poor mechanics/executions.
There's the problem. Sounds like you are putting too much weight on that series. That's all it was. One series; one moment in time. If we look back at what he did in PL and the fact he was tied with JangBi with the best record in high pressure situations (they were tied at 5-1 when all the money was on the line) and his regular season record. Well shit. They were pretty effective. If there is a player I'm missing right now it's JangBi because I would have liked to see what he really could do with this game. He would definitely be up there with a lot of the other Protoss players atm. It's funny because there was a period in BW PL where you would expect JangBi to proxy and he did.
One thing I don't see changing anytime soon is Protoss players getting a lot of flack for the way they play. Like I said earlier, if you go back to the other points in time where a Protoss was doing well you'd always see other folks ragging on their playstyle. Now that we have a bunch of them and they all have their different tics? It's making it very hard for the other players. This isn't Brood Lord/Infestor all over again. It's very different unit compositions and timings that make it hard to adjust to.
Ofcourse iam putting much weight on that series, because its the series to find out whos the very best,... at least I think thats the basic idea of that tournament. I agree with you that JangBi played pretty good, he was my favorite toss. In my eyes he played the most aggressive toss and his micro and mechanics were always on top (even when he lost on osl).
I just dont like inconsistency, or players showing in one series over-the-top mechanics/multitasking/micro and one series later they play like if they just don't care about anything. (That are some points were JangBi never failed, he maybe failed in decision making) I just don't see those kind of players as the "very best". Maybe you are right and Proleague should be the most important tournament.
On November 11 2013 13:20 redviper wrote: So happy Jaedong lost. And in such humiliating fashion.
Grats sOs, very very smartly and imaginatively played.
Come on man there's no need for that. Isn't it just better to say something like, "I'm glad sOs won, and so convincingly!" than to just bash on JD? Don't be that guy man.
Considering how many JDliebers bashed sOs, yes... i can see why people wanted to say something like that, no to mentionit is true, JD fell into sOs plan EVERY SINGLE TIME, even the one he won, because it was that huge gamble with the muta-switch that won him the game
On November 11 2013 17:47 DarkLordOlli wrote: What a way to end this WCS season. It's done so much good for the community. When we used to see negative threads pop up every minute on reddit a few weeks ago, the season 3 finals and then Blizzcon really have silenced them with flawless production, amazing hype and storylines and great games. I loved getting the chance to be a part of it and to contribute my part. Bring on 2014!
no positivity pls sOs not real champion 0/10 too volatile dead game etc
Isn't it too early to write sOs for being inconsistent? That's just laughable, considering that he just won his first big tourney. He is a great player, but has not yet attained the legendary status yet, I think everybody will agree on that.
"I don't know about the other days, but today I am the champion of the world" -Dear. That absolutely applies to sOs as well.
On November 10 2013 18:26 KivTM wrote: I don't call the finals lame because JD lost. I call them lame because of the way he lost. If you guys prefer to watch games where the winner is decided by whether or not his build gets scouted, then that's fine. I on the other hand prefer games like game 4 of JD vs Maru where games are decided more by tactics and less by strategy.
SoS beat JD strategically and tactically. It wasn't decided by whether a build gets scouted or not.
Game 1 was JD's to lose. That cannon rush was inconsequential. He should have kept denying the 4th instead of letting SoS mass up. That Utra switch should have killed SoS but I think JD was dead set on faking ultras, letting Sos overcommit on ultra counters and then switching quickly to mutas. There was a point where SoS wasn't actually ready for Ultras but ready for mutas.
Game 2, JD spotted the cannon rush so he wasn't caught off guard, he just didn't respond to it correctly. Even after that the response to go corrupters and zerglings vs zealot + phoenix wasn't correct either.
Game 3, not scouting the hidden expansion could have been a problem but JD won anyway.
Game 4, robo was scouted. But the fact that the warp prism instead of an immortal came out confused the hell out of JD. Again JD has scouted what was going on, he just didn't respond correctly.
Game 5, gateway opening for the first time. JD was on auto pilot and played as if it was against a forge or fast nexus expand. He had 2 zerglings at the front of Sos's base and he still let the probe through. Poor response to the gateway expand and poor map awareness. Zealots wreak havoc, that's not so bad. What was just poor play was the fact that JD didn't search for that hidden pylon after he had cleared the zealots.
In Maru vs JD, they both tried to outsmart each other but neither managed to do so. At every stage, they both knew what the correct response should be. But in SoS vs JD, JD just had no answer. It's like a chess program. A program may appear smart but all it actually does is look through it's database to find the appropriate response. There's no clever thinking involved, it's just following a flow chart. That's the problem with JD, he looked through his database, found no entry and could not formulate a response. SoS beat the JD program.
That's why I think people should appreciate SoS's play. He's the guy with the real "human" intelligence. Out of all the players playing in SC2 right now, if you were to nominate one of them to go against a really smart AI equipped with databases filled with replays of top players, it has to be SoS. The fact that he manages to find something different when people think that the game is at the stage where everything has been figured out is amazing.
Man, you're saying "It's not been decided by scouting!" and then you go full "Game 1-3 was totally about (not) scouting". Just wanted to throw that in.
On November 11 2013 17:47 DarkLordOlli wrote: What a way to end this WCS season. It's done so much good for the community. When we used to see negative threads pop up every minute on reddit a few weeks ago, the season 3 finals and then Blizzcon really have silenced them with flawless production, amazing hype and storylines and great games. I loved getting the chance to be a part of it and to contribute my part. Bring on 2014!
no positivity pls sOs not real champion 0/10 too volatile dead game etc
On November 11 2013 20:27 fx9 wrote: Isn't it too early to write off sOs for being inconsistent? That's just laughable, considering that he just won his first big tourney. He is a great player, but has not yet attained the legendary status yet, I think everybody will agree on that.
"I don't know about the other days, but today I am the champion of the world" -Dear. That absolutely applies to sOs as well.
It is not too early. It is too late. sOs has been very good throughout the Proleague, has maintained himself in the WCS KR premier league every season without having to pass through the up and down matches and has done well in every other tournament he has participated in: - win at the martial art thing, - final at the WCS S1 global finals, - ro8 at IEM NY, - ro8 at DH Bucarest, plus qualification to DH winter through the seeding matches (and those last two tournaments were stacked, so ro8 is no small feat) - win at blizzcon.
He has at least been very consistent in 2013. Even in the GSL seasons before HotS he was far from being ridiculous. Only one hiccup in the season one up and downs.
On November 11 2013 15:00 ladysman09 wrote: This just means Jaedong will be even more motivated to win DH. I hope he wins that since sOs won't be there to stop him. Innovation will be there but we all know JD severely out classes innovation in every way. JD has better micro, macro, multi tasking, and so on.
Just no. Though neither are particularly strategic. I really hope they follow through with making mech and bio viable. Zerg and Protoss have so many options whilst Terran have none.
I stopped watching after the first game. Jaedong could have done anything he wanted and could have kept him 2 or 3 base but went his usual full foreigner for finals. He breaks my heart man.
On November 11 2013 15:00 ladysman09 wrote: This just means Jaedong will be even more motivated to win DH. I hope he wins that since sOs won't be there to stop him. Innovation will be there but we all know JD severely out classes innovation in every way. JD has better micro, macro, multi tasking, and so on.
Just no. Though neither are particularly strategic. I really hope they follow through with making mech and bio viable. Zerg and Protoss have so many options whilst Terran have none.
Widow mine nerf is going to force players into more helbat compositions. Many have already adapted to a more helbat mmm. Personally I think Thors should be utilized better, now with their attack changing from light to heavy they do fairly well against Broods and Ultras.
Oh god what a tournament, just finished watching the vods. Breaks my heart that Jaedong can't seem to win a finals, he was playing the best sc2 I've seen vs. Maru. I just hope to god that he keeps on fighting. JAEDONG FIGHTING!
Jaedongs run on this tournament was something awesome to watch. A while ago i was scared that he might fall of like flash but he sure proved me wrong.
Specially JD vs Maru was something crazy, their game in Frost was insane to watch. Looking at jaedongs muta control denying every single medivac no matter how long route maru took, apm spiking in +650 and he literally doing everything everywhere.
It was sad that he lost the finals, but beating maru and dear is already amazing.
On November 11 2013 23:51 Beyond Magic wrote: Jaedongs run on this tournament was something awesome to watch. A while ago i was scared that he might fall of like flash but he sure proved me wrong.
Specially JD vs Maru was something crazy, their game in Frost was insane to watch. Looking at jaedongs muta control denying every single medivac no matter how long route maru took, apm spiking in +650 and he literally doing everything everywhere.
It was sad that he lost the finals, but beating maru and dear is already amazing.
On November 11 2013 04:07 Crackpot wrote: RIP SC2?
Is it just me or anyone else thinks that StarCraft 2 looses credibility? I mean, this year we had like 4 different "best players",.. how could that be ? To be honest, I dont think SOS is THE best player right now, I think everyone else of the participants (with few exceptions) could have won the global finals. From now on SOS will fall just like every other "major tournament"-winner,.. because like all the other champions (besides Innovation in Season 1) noone truely was THE BEST.
what does that mean? -->If more and more different players win major tournaments,winning a tournament seems to become more and more worthless, because everyone can win it, you don't have to be the very best.
Is it Blizzards "we patch everything" - mentality ? Or just "normal" because HotS isn't even a year old? I have no idea, but its not good for the sport.
What's the best team in soccer?
Funnily enough, you will find that such questions rarely have simple answers. It might have been in Brood War, but there are many sports where there is no undisputed #1 that get along just fine.
And this whole "you don't have to be the best to win" is annoying, stupid and offensive all at once. Of course you have to be the best. You have to play better and smarter than everyone else to win. Or you lose. That's how the game works. If you didn't know sOs well enough before the tournament, I'm sorry, but your argument is and has always been bullshit.
Funnily the best soccer Team is Barcelona and munich.
Seems like i hit some sos fanboy. to make things clear.. SOS won cause he played better than jd, i dont deny that.
And yes i saw SOS playing before the tournament. In my eyes he never was a pro deserving a championship, but there are many like him, maybe his mindgames(and they where pretty good) worked Vs jd now. but in pure mechanics, micro and strategies i see much better players than him.Dont get me wrong, I dont blame SOS for winning something, I blame the game or maybeblizzard or the tournemants or maybe every other progamer for letting stuff like that happen. you see , i dont know what to blame because i have no idea what is cousing this inconsistency.
Peace
Blaming Blizzard or every other pro gamer letting stuff like that happen? Rofl. Somehow I doubt you ever watched PL, but I don't blame you. Many people apparently didn't. You have a lot of options when it comes to what you can watch and when to watch. The PL timeslot isn't really friendly for many people. Anywho, there are quite a few of Protosses that can give you a run for your money (and that's one of the reasons they do so well because these guys have their own variations which makes it hard to play against unless you know what's coming) and guess what? sHy showed us plenty of new options and this goes back to PL. It's funny because I remember so many people would rag on whatever Protoss was doing well atm. People would shit on players like MC (including your 'idols'), PartinG and so on. The fact sOs can execute such strategies and sometimes they don't work out so well in the beginning and still hold his own. I think that says something. When the guy should probably be behind. He isn't behind. That my friend is scary. Not only that he's moving onto another front and using unit compositions that are so risky. If you don't nail it. You should be fucked. Also those storms man. MC storm meet sOs storm.
I like proleague, especially the allkill format because it reveals true strength and weaknesses of all players.Talking about sOs There he could assasinate other players pretty well, but when it comes to bo5 against innovation for example, he playes all weird without any self -confidence and poor mechanics/executions.
There's the problem. Sounds like you are putting too much weight on that series. That's all it was. One series; one moment in time. If we look back at what he did in PL and the fact he was tied with JangBi with the best record in high pressure situations (they were tied at 5-1 when all the money was on the line) and his regular season record. Well shit. They were pretty effective. If there is a player I'm missing right now it's JangBi because I would have liked to see what he really could do with this game. He would definitely be up there with a lot of the other Protoss players atm. It's funny because there was a period in BW PL where you would expect JangBi to proxy and he did.
One thing I don't see changing anytime soon is Protoss players getting a lot of flack for the way they play. Like I said earlier, if you go back to the other points in time where a Protoss was doing well you'd always see other folks ragging on their playstyle. Now that we have a bunch of them and they all have their different tics? It's making it very hard for the other players. This isn't Brood Lord/Infestor all over again. It's very different unit compositions and timings that make it hard to adjust to.
Ofcourse iam putting much weight on that series, because its the series to find out whos the very best,... at least I think thats the basic idea of that tournament. I agree with you that JangBi played pretty good, he was my favorite toss. In my eyes he played the most aggressive toss and his micro and mechanics were always on top (even when he lost on osl).
I just dont like inconsistency, or players showing in one series over-the-top mechanics/multitasking/micro and one series later they play like if they just don't care about anything. (That are some points were JangBi never failed, he maybe failed in decision making) I just don't see those kind of players as the "very best". Maybe you are right and Proleague should be the most important tournament.
peace
There is no such things as absolutes in this game. Having one bad series doesn't make you bad, lol. You have to look at the player's whole body of work in relation to time as well. Goes back to what I said before, there are a lot of players out there who can win on any given Sunday and that's the whole basis of LAN fields (let's face it, we're living in the day and age of the Western Lan model). That isn't going to change nor should it because the costs are already high enough as is holding such events. Just another reason we see this tournament at Blizzcon. We're killing a nest of birds with one stone.
If someone gets really hot. Good luck trying to stop them. It's the same premise as when Hwanni and I looked at Leenock and said, "Shit. This kid is going to win MLG." Didn't matter he was behind in map score to DRG. I'll borrow a page from the casters, "Leenock was playing out of his mind."
I wouldn't call it inconsistency because a lot of these players are actually fairly consistent. It's wrong to only go by their wins in tournaments. These guys consistently get results in league play and they consistently go far in the tournaments they attend. The WCS KR is hard to judge because there are so many mine bombs in the field that you need a little more luck dodging the shrapnel compared to other tournaments. The skill level and threats are just that much higher and for many of those players. It's the only way they can make a name for themselves.
I have no idea what you have against JangBi because right before he retired. He was getting very, very good and he was Khan's most consistent player in PL. Khan could always rely on him to get the win in the Ace match as long as the Series got there. The guy quit because he didn't enjoy the game anymore regardless of success. Simple as that and I'm not saying Pro League is the most important indicator, but it's a place where we constantly get to see the KeSPA rosters go head-to-head and showcase their skills over a long period of time. Does this reflect back on the Individual Leagues? Not necessarily. As I said before going back to the BW days there were many players who you could rely upon when it came to PL but that doesn't mean they were getting the individual results at the same time. In fact, several players would go MIA or would get knocked out early whether it be the qualifiers or early stages. For instance, guys like Sea and Bisu. Who are actually performing very well after going back to BW/afreeca/SOSPA. Well, Bisu is just about to start in Sonic but he's been beating a lot of the top dogs thus far on his stream constantly. Hopefully he doesn't die to hydra busts. :/
On November 11 2013 15:00 ladysman09 wrote: This just means Jaedong will be even more motivated to win DH. I hope he wins that since sOs won't be there to stop him. Innovation will be there but we all know JD severely out classes innovation in every way. JD has better micro, macro, multi tasking, and so on.
Just no. Though neither are particularly strategic. I really hope they follow through with making mech and bio viable. Zerg and Protoss have so many options whilst Terran have none.
This guy just generally makes troll-ish posts and tries to rile people up. Best to just ignore him when he makes these kinds of claims.
On November 11 2013 21:15 icclown wrote: Great finals... Was cheering for JD, but sOs definately deserved the win!!
I agree. I felt the same way - very disappointed that JD lost, but sOs played a great finals. Hopefully he keeps it up, instead of just grabbing a finals from a legend and disappearing like so many top Protosses.
All this "love of the game", "just appreciate the matches" bullshit is getting real tired. If people are fans of Jaedong they are allowed to be sad he lost. If people don't like sos they are allowed to not cheer for him, despite what he might have won or might win.
If you like sos, then fucking cheer for him. Make a tribute thread, spam cheerfuls, photoshop him into your favorite movie posters. That's what fans do. But don't fucking expect fans of the guy he just crushed to get on board. I can't believe this isn't common sense.
yeah, I might be a fan of 'football', but if my home team loses, I'm not gonna say "well, the opponents sure played great, what an exciting match". I'm gonna yell. And no one who loves football would blame me. But apparently when I watch starcraft I have to love everyone equally or I might hurt Esports™. If Esports™ can't handle me cheering for the player I like, then just take it out behind the shed already. Then people can leave it alone, and I can cheer for Jaedong on my own.
In football you'd also be considered a dick if you tried to take away anything from the opposing team if they win fair and square. That's what this is about.
On November 12 2013 01:39 Vorenius wrote: All this "love of the game", "just appreciate the matches" bullshit is getting real tired. If people are fans of Jaedong they are allowed to be sad he lost. If people don't like sos they are allowed to not cheer for him, despite what he might have won or might win.
If you like sos, then fucking cheer for him. Make a tribute thread, spam cheerfuls, photoshop him into your favorite movie posters. That's what fans do. But don't fucking expect fans of the guy he just crushed to get on board. I can't believe this isn't common sense.
yeah, I might be a fan of 'football', but if my home team loses, I'm not gonna say "well, the opponents sure played great, what an exciting match". I'm gonna yell. And no one who loves football would blame me. But apparently when I watch starcraft I have to love everyone equally or I might hurt Esports™. If Esports™ can't handle me cheering for the player I like, then just take it out behind the shed already. Then people can leave it alone, and I can cheer for Jaedong on my own.
Here's the thing, you don't have to cheer for sOs. You don't have to like him, post nice things about him, any of that. However, you do have to maintain a certain level of civility when talking about him, at least here.
Basically that just means no "protoss imba" "sOs just cheesed him didn't deserve the win". Other than that you can do whatever you want pretty much. Cheer for JD.
On November 12 2013 01:39 Vorenius wrote: All this "love of the game", "just appreciate the matches" bullshit is getting real tired. If people are fans of Jaedong they are allowed to be sad he lost. If people don't like sos they are allowed to not cheer for him, despite what he might have won or might win.
If you like sos, then fucking cheer for him. Make a tribute thread, spam cheerfuls, photoshop him into your favorite movie posters. That's what fans do. But don't fucking expect fans of the guy he just crushed to get on board. I can't believe this isn't common sense.
yeah, I might be a fan of 'football', but if my home team loses, I'm not gonna say "well, the opponents sure played great, what an exciting match". I'm gonna yell. And no one who loves football would blame me. But apparently when I watch starcraft I have to love everyone equally or I might hurt Esports™. If Esports™ can't handle me cheering for the player I like, then just take it out behind the shed already. Then people can leave it alone, and I can cheer for Jaedong on my own.
Here's the thing, you don't have to cheer for sOs. You don't have to like him, post nice things about him, any of that. However, you do have to maintain a certain level of civility when talking about him, at least here.
Basically that just means no "protoss imba" "sOs just cheesed him didn't deserve the win". Other than that you can do whatever you want pretty much. Cheer for JD.
As a Red Sox fan and hater of the Yankees by the laws of nature, I can't agree with the whole "be civil" and "just cheer for JD". A little trash talking(within reason) makes games fun. Booing the guy you don't want to win is fine. It's all in good fun. The greatest sport rivialy of all time has only been made better by the fans cheering for one side and booing the others. Red Sox fans may hate the Yankees, but we wouldn't want a world without them.
On November 12 2013 01:39 Vorenius wrote: All this "love of the game", "just appreciate the matches" bullshit is getting real tired. If people are fans of Jaedong they are allowed to be sad he lost. If people don't like sos they are allowed to not cheer for him, despite what he might have won or might win.
If you like sos, then fucking cheer for him. Make a tribute thread, spam cheerfuls, photoshop him into your favorite movie posters. That's what fans do. But don't fucking expect fans of the guy he just crushed to get on board. I can't believe this isn't common sense.
yeah, I might be a fan of 'football', but if my home team loses, I'm not gonna say "well, the opponents sure played great, what an exciting match". I'm gonna yell. And no one who loves football would blame me. But apparently when I watch starcraft I have to love everyone equally or I might hurt Esports™. If Esports™ can't handle me cheering for the player I like, then just take it out behind the shed already. Then people can leave it alone, and I can cheer for Jaedong on my own.
Here's the thing, you don't have to cheer for sOs. You don't have to like him, post nice things about him, any of that. However, you do have to maintain a certain level of civility when talking about him, at least here.
Basically that just means no "protoss imba" "sOs just cheesed him didn't deserve the win". Other than that you can do whatever you want pretty much. Cheer for JD.
As a Red Sox fan and hater of the Yankees by the laws of nature, I can't agree with the whole "be civil" and "just cheer for JD". A little trash talking(within reason) makes games fun. Booing the guy you don't want to win is fine. It's all in good fun. The greatest sport rivialy of all time has only been made better by the fans cheering for one side and booing the others. Red Sox fans may hate the Yankees, but we wouldn't want a world without them.
I feel like a fundamental difference is that some of these players are new to foreign tournaments. They've never played before a foreign crowd before - by booing then, you'd not only be a dick, you'd also potentially ruin the players first experience. Who would want to go overseas again if all they remember is people booing and hating them? It's absolutely fine to not cheer for your players opponent, I wouldnt cheer for someone who beats Life. But the whole "only cheese no skill" bullshit makes my head hurt.
On November 12 2013 01:39 Vorenius wrote: All this "love of the game", "just appreciate the matches" bullshit is getting real tired. If people are fans of Jaedong they are allowed to be sad he lost. If people don't like sos they are allowed to not cheer for him, despite what he might have won or might win.
If you like sos, then fucking cheer for him. Make a tribute thread, spam cheerfuls, photoshop him into your favorite movie posters. That's what fans do. But don't fucking expect fans of the guy he just crushed to get on board. I can't believe this isn't common sense.
yeah, I might be a fan of 'football', but if my home team loses, I'm not gonna say "well, the opponents sure played great, what an exciting match". I'm gonna yell. And no one who loves football would blame me. But apparently when I watch starcraft I have to love everyone equally or I might hurt Esports™. If Esports™ can't handle me cheering for the player I like, then just take it out behind the shed already. Then people can leave it alone, and I can cheer for Jaedong on my own.
Here's the thing, you don't have to cheer for sOs. You don't have to like him, post nice things about him, any of that. However, you do have to maintain a certain level of civility when talking about him, at least here.
Basically that just means no "protoss imba" "sOs just cheesed him didn't deserve the win". Other than that you can do whatever you want pretty much. Cheer for JD.
As a Red Sox fan and hater of the Yankees by the laws of nature, I can't agree with the whole "be civil" and "just cheer for JD". A little trash talking(within reason) makes games fun. Booing the guy you don't want to win is fine. It's all in good fun. The greatest sport rivialy of all time has only been made better by the fans cheering for one side and booing the others. Red Sox fans may hate the Yankees, but we wouldn't want a world without them.
Yeah, I agree that a little trash talking is fine within reason. The problem is that a lot of people didn't really seem to be within reason, and didn't respect the difference between trash talking ("JD's gonna stomp sOs into the ground!") and making flat out ignorant claims that ignore the level of skill that sOs showed ("Toss imba", "He's just a dirty cheeser, fuck SC2 and fuck sOs").
Also, in SC2, unlike baseball, there are far more lesser known progamers than big stars like Jaedong. Imagine if every time non-big star played against a big star at a live SC2 event, the crowd would boo the lesser known player. Unlike baseball in which there are already established rivalries and big fanbases for all the big teams, you'd have some people getting boo'd over and over again, which I personally think is bullshit. Imagine if you're a less popular pro like Alive, and almost every foreign tournament you went to, you had 90% of a big crowd booing you because "Booing the guy you don't want to win is fine". Jesus, that would be a nightmare, and IMO very unfair to Alive who has to deal with a hostile environment like that every time he plays at a foreign event. People keep making these comparisons to baseball and football to justify how they act as a SC2 fan, and I don't think these are fair comparisons to make because SC2 and baseball/football have so many big differences in terms of popularity.
sOs played exactly how Muhammad Ali played against George Foreman (btw if you haven't seen that boxing game, you should definitely do it). George Foreman is this huge guy that if he punches you one time, it's KO, game over. But Muhammad Ali is so smart and cunning that, even though he is one half of his opponent in size, he is able to dance around him all game and NEVER get a full punch from him.
That is how I saw sOs in the WCS Finals. Like an incredibly smart guy that knew that if the lets Jaedong play his game, he stands absolutely no chance (I mean he saw what happened to Dear, and you can't get much better than that guy...). Just like Muhammad Ali, he knew how to OUTSMART his opponent and make Jaedong look like that slow, big, hulky guy that never caught sOs a direct punch.
This sOs is absolutely brilliant and I can't emphasize enough how much I love that guy for the way he played the series, and I am not even a Protoss player. sOs is a well deserving world champion, smartest guy around and people should start paying him the respect he deserves and has earned.
sOs played rly great all of his games on this tournament. as well as JD. but im rly happy that sOs won i was rly touched by how sOs was happy! but i was also disapointed that audience wasnt cheering for him that much D:
On November 10 2013 12:20 Nuclease wrote: Was heartbroken that JD lost, but people really didn't pay sOs the respect he deserves as the champ at BlizzCon. So many people wouldn't cheer for anyone but JD. Really, the crowd was so lame
Aint that the story of 2013? Good players beat ok zerg, fanboys of ok zerg rage and whine. Iterate.
On November 10 2013 12:20 Nuclease wrote: Was heartbroken that JD lost, but people really didn't pay sOs the respect he deserves as the champ at BlizzCon. So many people wouldn't cheer for anyone but JD. Really, the crowd was so lame
Aint that the story of 2013? Good players beat ok zerg, fanboys of ok zerg rage and whine. Iterate.
How many times has that actually happened in 2013? o_O
On November 10 2013 12:20 Nuclease wrote: Was heartbroken that JD lost, but people really didn't pay sOs the respect he deserves as the champ at BlizzCon. So many people wouldn't cheer for anyone but JD. Really, the crowd was so lame
Aint that the story of 2013? Good players beat ok zerg, fanboys of ok zerg rage and whine. Iterate.
How many times has that actually happened in 2013? o_O
The ok zerg has lost like.. five major and minor finals recently? And semifinals and stuff.
On November 12 2013 03:53 0mg_t1red wrote: sOs played rly great all of his games on this tournament. as well as JD. but im rly happy that sOs won i was rly touched by how sOs was happy! but i was also disapointed that audience wasnt cheering for him that much D:
Yeah.. It did seem that JD was the crowd favorite. sOs did deserve the win as he really was better, however I am hyped that JD has the consistency and is not falling of the great player radar list for quite some time now.
On November 12 2013 01:39 Vorenius wrote: All this "love of the game", "just appreciate the matches" bullshit is getting real tired. If people are fans of Jaedong they are allowed to be sad he lost. If people don't like sos they are allowed to not cheer for him, despite what he might have won or might win.
If you like sos, then fucking cheer for him. Make a tribute thread, spam cheerfuls, photoshop him into your favorite movie posters. That's what fans do. But don't fucking expect fans of the guy he just crushed to get on board. I can't believe this isn't common sense.
yeah, I might be a fan of 'football', but if my home team loses, I'm not gonna say "well, the opponents sure played great, what an exciting match". I'm gonna yell. And no one who loves football would blame me. But apparently when I watch starcraft I have to love everyone equally or I might hurt Esports™. If Esports™ can't handle me cheering for the player I like, then just take it out behind the shed already. Then people can leave it alone, and I can cheer for Jaedong on my own.
Here's the thing, you don't have to cheer for sOs. You don't have to like him, post nice things about him, any of that. However, you do have to maintain a certain level of civility when talking about him, at least here.
Basically that just means no "protoss imba" "sOs just cheesed him didn't deserve the win". Other than that you can do whatever you want pretty much. Cheer for JD.
As a Red Sox fan and hater of the Yankees by the laws of nature, I can't agree with the whole "be civil" and "just cheer for JD". A little trash talking(within reason) makes games fun. Booing the guy you don't want to win is fine. It's all in good fun. The greatest sport rivialy of all time has only been made better by the fans cheering for one side and booing the others. Red Sox fans may hate the Yankees, but we wouldn't want a world without them.
Yeah, I agree that a little trash talking is fine within reason. The problem is that a lot of people didn't really seem to be within reason, and didn't respect the difference between trash talking ("JD's gonna stomp sOs into the ground!") and making flat out ignorant claims that ignore the level of skill that sOs showed ("Toss imba", "He's just a dirty cheeser, fuck SC2 and fuck sOs").
Also, in SC2, unlike baseball, there are far more lesser known progamers than big stars like Jaedong. Imagine if every time non-big star played against a big star at a live SC2 event, the crowd would boo the lesser known player. Unlike baseball in which there are already established rivalries and big fanbases for all the big teams, you'd have some people getting boo'd over and over again, which I personally think is bullshit. Imagine if you're a less popular pro like Alive, and almost every foreign tournament you went to, you had 90% of a big crowd booing you because "Booing the guy you don't want to win is fine". Jesus, that would be a nightmare, and IMO very unfair to Alive who has to deal with a hostile environment like that every time he plays at a foreign event. People keep making these comparisons to baseball and football to justify how they act as a SC2 fan, and I don't think these are fair comparisons to make because SC2 and baseball/football have so many big differences in terms of popularity.
There is nothing wrong with trash talk, but when they make it abundantly clear that they have a poor understanding of the game (unfortunately there are a lot of people who don't get it) then you really don't have a place to criticize the players. There is a reason why they are where they are today. Not to say you have to be top 20 GM to have a say on the matter, but you at least have to show you have some sort of street cred or else be prepared for the tongue lashing you're about to receive. It might not be from me, but it sure as hell will be from someone else.
On November 10 2013 12:20 Nuclease wrote: Was heartbroken that JD lost, but people really didn't pay sOs the respect he deserves as the champ at BlizzCon. So many people wouldn't cheer for anyone but JD. Really, the crowd was so lame
Aint that the story of 2013? Good players beat ok zerg, fanboys of ok zerg rage and whine. Iterate.
How many times has that actually happened in 2013? o_O
The ok zerg has lost like.. five major and minor finals recently? And semifinals and stuff.
Are you only talking about Jaedong or are you talking about Soulkey as well? I think you could almost make an argument for every final. People complain a lot about the results especially when it closes to a sweep in the score. When a lot of those games were pretty close.
On November 11 2013 04:07 Crackpot wrote: RIP SC2?
Is it just me or anyone else thinks that StarCraft 2 looses credibility? I mean, this year we had like 4 different "best players",.. how could that be ? To be honest, I dont think SOS is THE best player right now, I think everyone else of the participants (with few exceptions) could have won the global finals. From now on SOS will fall just like every other "major tournament"-winner,.. because like all the other champions (besides Innovation in Season 1) noone truely was THE BEST.
what does that mean? -->If more and more different players win major tournaments,winning a tournament seems to become more and more worthless, because everyone can win it, you don't have to be the very best.
Is it Blizzards "we patch everything" - mentality ? Or just "normal" because HotS isn't even a year old? I have no idea, but its not good for the sport.
What's the best team in soccer?
Funnily enough, you will find that such questions rarely have simple answers. It might have been in Brood War, but there are many sports where there is no undisputed #1 that get along just fine.
And this whole "you don't have to be the best to win" is annoying, stupid and offensive all at once. Of course you have to be the best. You have to play better and smarter than everyone else to win. Or you lose. That's how the game works. If you didn't know sOs well enough before the tournament, I'm sorry, but your argument is and has always been bullshit.
Funnily the best soccer Team is Barcelona and munich.
Seems like i hit some sos fanboy. to make things clear.. SOS won cause he played better than jd, i dont deny that.
And yes i saw SOS playing before the tournament. In my eyes he never was a pro deserving a championship, but there are many like him, maybe his mindgames(and they where pretty good) worked Vs jd now. but in pure mechanics, micro and strategies i see much better players than him.Dont get me wrong, I dont blame SOS for winning something, I blame the game or maybeblizzard or the tournemants or maybe every other progamer for letting stuff like that happen. you see , i dont know what to blame because i have no idea what is cousing this inconsistency.
Peace
Blaming Blizzard or every other pro gamer letting stuff like that happen? Rofl. Somehow I doubt you ever watched PL, but I don't blame you. Many people apparently didn't. You have a lot of options when it comes to what you can watch and when to watch. The PL timeslot isn't really friendly for many people. Anywho, there are quite a few of Protosses that can give you a run for your money (and that's one of the reasons they do so well because these guys have their own variations which makes it hard to play against unless you know what's coming) and guess what? sHy showed us plenty of new options and this goes back to PL. It's funny because I remember so many people would rag on whatever Protoss was doing well atm. People would shit on players like MC (including your 'idols'), PartinG and so on. The fact sOs can execute such strategies and sometimes they don't work out so well in the beginning and still hold his own. I think that says something. When the guy should probably be behind. He isn't behind. That my friend is scary. Not only that he's moving onto another front and using unit compositions that are so risky. If you don't nail it. You should be fucked. Also those storms man. MC storm meet sOs storm.
I like proleague, especially the allkill format because it reveals true strength and weaknesses of all players.Talking about sOs There he could assasinate other players pretty well, but when it comes to bo5 against innovation for example, he playes all weird without any self -confidence and poor mechanics/executions.
There's the problem. Sounds like you are putting too much weight on that series. That's all it was. One series; one moment in time. If we look back at what he did in PL and the fact he was tied with JangBi with the best record in high pressure situations (they were tied at 5-1 when all the money was on the line) and his regular season record. Well shit. They were pretty effective. If there is a player I'm missing right now it's JangBi because I would have liked to see what he really could do with this game. He would definitely be up there with a lot of the other Protoss players atm. It's funny because there was a period in BW PL where you would expect JangBi to proxy and he did.
One thing I don't see changing anytime soon is Protoss players getting a lot of flack for the way they play. Like I said earlier, if you go back to the other points in time where a Protoss was doing well you'd always see other folks ragging on their playstyle. Now that we have a bunch of them and they all have their different tics? It's making it very hard for the other players. This isn't Brood Lord/Infestor all over again. It's very different unit compositions and timings that make it hard to adjust to.
Ofcourse iam putting much weight on that series, because its the series to find out whos the very best,... at least I think thats the basic idea of that tournament. I agree with you that JangBi played pretty good, he was my favorite toss. In my eyes he played the most aggressive toss and his micro and mechanics were always on top (even when he lost on osl).
I just dont like inconsistency, or players showing in one series over-the-top mechanics/multitasking/micro and one series later they play like if they just don't care about anything. (That are some points were JangBi never failed, he maybe failed in decision making) I just don't see those kind of players as the "very best". Maybe you are right and Proleague should be the most important tournament.
peace
There is no such things as absolutes in this game. Having one bad series doesn't make you bad, lol. You have to look at the player's whole body of work in relation to time as well. Goes back to what I said before, there are a lot of players out there who can win on any given Sunday and that's the whole basis of LAN fields (let's face it, we're living in the day and age of the Western Lan model). That isn't going to change nor should it because the costs are already high enough as is holding such events. Just another reason we see this tournament at Blizzcon. We're killing a nest of birds with one stone.
If someone gets really hot. Good luck trying to stop them. It's the same premise as when Hwanni and I looked at Leenock and said, "Shit. This kid is going to win MLG." Didn't matter he was behind in map score to DRG. I'll borrow a page from the casters, "Leenock was playing out of his mind."
I wouldn't call it inconsistency because a lot of these players are actually fairly consistent. It's wrong to only go by their wins in tournaments. These guys consistently get results in league play and they consistently go far in the tournaments they attend. The WCS KR is hard to judge because there are so many mine bombs in the field that you need a little more luck dodging the shrapnel compared to other tournaments. The skill level and threats are just that much higher and for many of those players. It's the only way they can make a name for themselves.
I have no idea what you have against JangBi because right before he retired. He was getting very, very good and he was Khan's most consistent player in PL. Khan could always rely on him to get the win in the Ace match as long as the Series got there. The guy quit because he didn't enjoy the game anymore regardless of success. Simple as that and I'm not saying Pro League is the most important indicator, but it's a place where we constantly get to see the KeSPA rosters go head-to-head and showcase their skills over a long period of time. Does this reflect back on the Individual Leagues? Not necessarily. As I said before going back to the BW days there were many players who you could rely upon when it came to PL but that doesn't mean they were getting the individual results at the same time. In fact, several players would go MIA or would get knocked out early whether it be the qualifiers or early stages. For instance, guys like Sea and Bisu. Who are actually performing very well after going back to BW/afreeca/SOSPA. Well, Bisu is just about to start in Sonic but he's been beating a lot of the top dogs thus far on his stream constantly. Hopefully he doesn't die to hydra busts. :/
Dont get me wrong, i never was ironic about JangBi. In my eyes he was the best protoss when he was still active. He never did major mistakes and when he lost series it was like "ok he tried hard that aggressive style but lost". His Stalker-blink-micro always was superior in any situation of the game. Loved watching him and iam still very sad about that he had to go.
Ofcourse players can loose a series without being inconsistent. When Bomber for example plays vs sOs and looses because he played that aggressive style the whole time, then its ok, it was his decision to play like that. But when players do major mistakes the whole time and can't read the enemy at any point in the game, then that player must have a lack of something very important for that game in my eyes. That is the point were i see players being "inconsistent".
On the other hand there is inconsistency in the game or the tournament (I dont know which of it it is). If players like "dear" winning their first major tournament they participating and even the following season final. I think for myself, did that guy become THAT better than any other player only by a month ? Its something I would blame the "system" (patching or something else) for, otherwise there is no explanation for that. (In proleague he more or less was one of the "better" players).
If you look at players like Soulkey, Rain, Innovatin, Bomber, Jaedong, they are always consistent on top of any tournament.
On November 11 2013 23:36 LockeTazeline wrote: Anyone else excited for WCS 2014? =D
On November 11 2013 11:27 opterown wrote:
That photo is so fucking good. Glad we have moved to a era where players lose their shit when they win and don't just stay on booth.
Jaedong coming out to the crowd after the semis was great. He was pretty pumped after that Game 5. sOs was pretty emotional and in person rather humble. The guy was pretty happy that night.
While we in the crowd were mostly going for Jaedong, there was a pretty good cheer when sOs won it all.
Honestly it reminded me of GSL finals 2011 at BlizzCon. The crowd was clearly behind MMA, despite MVP being more well known than sOs where you would think the crowd would be more even. You can't control a crowd who is backing JD to be saddened during each game loss. JD had the home field advantage for fans.
EPT
sOs defeats 
Jaedong 4-1![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/WCS_EU_S3_13/wcsfinals0.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/WCS_EU_S3_13/wcsfinals1.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/WCS_EU_S3_13/wcsfinals2.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/WCS_EU_S3_13/wcsfinals3.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/WCS_EU_S3_13/wcsfinals4.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/WCS_EU_S3_13/wcsfinals6.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/578940jdwins.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Q92kOdV.jpg)
(![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yRgwUKP.png)
.... anyone knows what mouse he is using? ![[image loading]](http://postimg.org/image/yhrz1wjfb/)
![[image loading]](http://i43.tinypic.com/9u5gqs.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/frnVdTH.jpg)
I have news for you no one has truly been the best player in SC2. Ever. People can talk about MC Boss Toss all they want, they can talk about MVP being King all they want, they can talk about Nestea all they want. When you have as many tournaments where you will always see different competitors (heck, even if we had the same competitors) the truth is there are a lot of players who can win on any given sunday depending on several factors. There would be shifts no matter what.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9UrcxoI.gif)
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BYwZi_kCQAEeC1K.jpg)
PartinG ![[image loading]](https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1400424_10151955066784774_1350042215_o.jpg)
