David Kim quote: "We try to look into every community - especially the big ones like the video you're talking about - and regarding it we thought it was an amazing comparison between the two games, but I think at the end of the day it kind of goes back the point about skill visibility that I was talking about. A lot of those micro opportunities that there were and that are shown in that video were very cool but it's not something that a casual level viewer can easily understand. So while we do want specific things that only the really hardcore players can understand we want to more so focus on something that everyone can enjoy, because on this side, not only the most hardcore people can understand that stuff that's going on but also the casual viewers, so we want to have a good balance of the two and right now our focus is more so on the skill visibility for everyone."
How did BroodWar become a massive eSport with micro that wasn't recognizable by the average viewer? How did it get televised in Korea if that was the case? His response doesn't jibe with reality.
Brood War became massive because it was around during a time period when PC Bangs became a massive part of Korean culture, and it didn't have much competition for LAN game play (What else was there, Quake? I know CS was after).
Everything surrounding Pro BW in Korea was a perfect storm scenario where a massive percentage of the gaming population was already invested in the game. Viewers in Korea weren't exactly "average".
my dad was a big BW KT Rolster/Flash fan, and watched PL/OSL/MSL on a regular basis, despite never playing any games.
On November 15 2013 12:57 Doominator10 wrote: Aww Day9 Frisbees <3 You just had to actually find some right when I'm trying to finish this physics HW. Curse you!... and this HW!
On Topic-ish: I've heard good things about their D3 console port. With projects like that, I wouldn't be surprised if DB and or DK were the entire balance team themselves with maybe 1-4 other guys for playtesting and coding.
Off Topic again: Do we have a thread with all the must read threads evar already? If not, why do we not have one T_T Edit: can you link the the philosophies of game design? Having problems googling them.
Hahaha, I know that feel, doing some CS homework then a wild Depth of Micro post appears!
I haven't really heard much about the D3 console port, other than one guy I work with who loves it. If we had enough momentum behind us we could do it.
On November 15 2013 05:25 Pirfiktshon wrote: I think he is trying to make the game to much Like LoL With flashy abilities and explosions when if what was seen in this video were addressed we would have a highly functional game with a ton of micro possibilities and a MUCH MUCH MUCH higher skill ceiling that would separate high level players from the rest.....
I have a rudimentary (at best) idea of MOBA mechanics, but I cannot tell what the fuck is going on in LoL. For a colourblind person especially it resembles an animated Jackson Pollock painting
On November 15 2013 14:23 TopRamen wrote: Is it possible that o̶v̶e̶r̶s̶k̶i̶l̶l̶ overkill can good for the game? If it weren't creating bugs as pointed out in the video, maybe?
It is a good thing for siege tanks. Their low rate of fire, range and splash are optimized by not having overkill. It's not a good thing for fast harass air units.
On November 15 2013 14:23 TopRamen wrote: Is it possible that o̶v̶e̶r̶s̶k̶i̶l̶l̶ overkill can good for the game? If it weren't creating bugs as pointed out in the video, maybe?
It is a good thing for siege tanks. Their low rate of fire, range and splash are optimized by not having overkill. It's not a good thing for fast harass air units.
Sorry, but it is a bad thing for Siege tanks not to have overkill. It means that Blizzard had to heavily nerf them to not make them insanely OP, resulting in a mediocre unit that noone uses.
Overkill prevention is one of the ideas that sound great, but in practice its actually horrible.
It strengthens deathball play by allowing units to maximize DPS. It makes unit control less impactful, giving good players less tools to improve with. It makes fast firing, fast moving units behave wierdly (the bugs shown in these videos). It gives one less aspect of units (how prone they are to waste damage) for the balance team to use.
As far as things I would like to change in the game, removing all overkill prevention is probably my #2. My #1 would be changing most units to be more extreme in their design.
Smart Firing (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Definitions#S) "A unit which does not fire a visible projectile and, therefore, cannot Overkill enemy units. Smart firing units include Tanks, Marines, Thors, Ghosts, Infested Terrans, Auto-Turrets, Reapers, Landed Vikings, Void Rays and Immortals."
Didn't know that it applied to units like marines also.
I agree that the skill ceiling is lowered by not needing to micro units to achieve max DPS in whatever formation they're in. That is, they make the best possible use of the formation, and not meaning that they achieve max DPS no matter what. However, in games such as BW, I don't remember target firing tanks being important. There was too little time to do that, maybe like a templar or defiler if you could get it/if it was indeed critical, but most of your attention was probably focused elsewhere. Also, there were probably better ways of neutralizing those units, sci vessels for one.
I would also agree that it makes deathballs stronger. But its also good at making smaller amounts of units more effective. That's definitely not good on some units, going back to the first point, lowers skill cap. But I think maybe ok on units like the siege tank. Where its better vs large amounts of units, therefore kind of weakens deathball play.
Yes fast firing, fast moving units its not good on.
One less aspect of units for balance is actually probably good for the balance team, less factors for them to work with. Unless that is not what you mean.
Anyways.. I'm not promoting overkill prevention, just trying to create discussion and learn.
On November 15 2013 20:43 TopRamen wrote: Interesting bit I found on Liquipedia...
Smart Firing (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Definitions#S) "A unit which does not fire a visible projectile and, therefore, cannot Overkill enemy units. Smart firing units include Tanks, Marines, Thors, Ghosts, Infested Terrans, Auto-Turrets, Reapers, Landed Vikings, Void Rays and Immortals."
Didn't know that it applied to units like marines also.
I agree that the skill ceiling is lowered by not needing to micro units to achieve max DPS in whatever formation they're in. That is, they make the best possible use of the formation, and not meaning that they achieve max DPS no matter what. However, in games such as BW, I don't remember target firing tanks being important. There was too little time to do that, maybe like a templar or defiler if you could get it/if it was indeed critical, but most of your attention was probably focused elsewhere. Also, there were probably better ways of neutralizing those units, sci vessels for one.
I would also agree that it makes deathballs stronger. But its also good at making smaller amounts of units more effective. That's definitely not good on some units, going back to the first point, lowers skill cap. But I think maybe ok on units like the siege tank. Where its better vs large amounts of units, therefore kind of weakens deathball play.
Yes fast firing, fast moving units its not good on.
One less aspect of units for balance is actually probably good for the balance team, less factors for them to work with. Unless that is not what you mean.
Anyways.. I'm not promoting overkill prevention, just trying to create discussion and learn.
Great post with some real solid analysis.
I'll adress the points one by one.
1) You did target fire with tanks from time to time, although I agree that it was not the primary focus unless it was in low unit count situations (3 tanks + vultures vs some Zealots) or to prevent friendly fire. The more common micro trick allowed by overkill was from the opponent, forcing tanks to waste shots overkilling Zealots/Zerglings/Vultures by sending one unit in slightly ahead of the rest.
2) Units with fast/instant shots or fast attackspeed would suffer less from overkill due to having less dps wasted, so that is a good way to make some units less vulnerable to the decreasing DPS of grouping.
3)It gives one more factor to balance with. While it does make the balance more complex, it also gives more meaning to things like projectile speed. A simple example of how the balance could be adjusted in a more targetted way: This unit is far too effective in large armies (Colossus? Tempests? Marines?) but is mostly useless before it gets to that point - lets give it a longer window for overkill, but increase its damage.
On November 15 2013 20:43 TopRamen wrote: However, in games such as BW, I don't remember target firing tanks being important. There was too little time to do that, maybe like a templar or defiler if you could get it/if it was indeed critical, but most of your attention was probably focused elsewhere. Also, there were probably better ways of neutralizing those units, sci vessels for one.
There's a time for everything. Unfortunately, probably the majority of cases aren't especially visible like this one.
Target firing was fairly common by top players in TvP especially. Everytime you sieged while a Protoss was in the process of charging into you, you'd try hard not to kill your own tanks and vultures.
Collateral damage by tanks in SC2 doesn't compare to BW. The outcome of a fight in BW could realistically be decided by whether you blew your own shit up or, as a smarter course of action, decided to blow his ranged shit up while the vultures tanked and handled the collateral baiting zealots.
However, once you got over a single control group of tanks that kind of micromanagement wasn't worth the effort.
On November 15 2013 05:25 Pirfiktshon wrote: I think he is trying to make the game to much Like LoL With flashy abilities and explosions when if what was seen in this video were addressed we would have a highly functional game with a ton of micro possibilities and a MUCH MUCH MUCH higher skill ceiling that would separate high level players from the rest.....
I have a rudimentary (at best) idea of MOBA mechanics, but I cannot tell what the fuck is going on in LoL. For a colourblind person especially it resembles an animated Jackson Pollock painting
League is really bad for the disco party that happens every team fight. Dota is a little better, since there is more room and fewer disco effects. Also every fight with Protoss is a disco party and when colossi is involved its a flat out rave.
On November 15 2013 22:11 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: Great post with some real solid analysis.
I'll adress the points one by one.
1) You did target fire with tanks from time to time, although I agree that it was not the primary focus unless it was in low unit count situations (3 tanks + vultures vs some Zealots) or to prevent friendly fire. The more common micro trick allowed by overkill was from the opponent, forcing tanks to waste shots overkilling Zealots/Zerglings/Vultures by sending one unit in slightly ahead of the rest.
2) Units with fast/instant shots or fast attackspeed would suffer less from overkill due to having less dps wasted, so that is a good way to make some units less vulnerable to the decreasing DPS of grouping.
3)It gives one more factor to balance with. While it does make the balance more complex, it also gives more meaning to things like projectile speed. A simple example of how the balance could be adjusted in a more targetted way: This unit is far too effective in large armies (Colossus? Tempests? Marines?) but is mostly useless before it gets to that point - lets give it a longer window for overkill, but increase its damage.
Thanks! You too!
For your first point, makes sense in situations such as early game or late game where units are more sparse, because then micro becomes more important. I remember that too, or sending a SCV or something to tank tankshots.
On your third point I'm not exactly sure what you mean. What I'm hearing is: Because overkill prevention doesn't affect units with projectiles, projectiles are a way to balance the game?
On November 15 2013 22:12 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
There's a time for everything. Unfortunately, probably the majority of cases aren't especially visible like this one.
Holy crap, noted!
On November 16 2013 00:51 LaLuSh wrote: Target firing was fairly common by top players in TvP especially. Everytime you sieged while a Protoss was in the process of charging into you, you'd try hard not to kill your own tanks and vultures.
Collateral damage by tanks in SC2 doesn't compare to BW. The outcome of a fight in BW could realistically be decided by whether you blew your own shit up or, as a smarter course of action, decided to blow his ranged shit up while the vultures tanked and handled the collateral baiting zealots.
However, once you got over a single control group of tanks that kind of micromanagement wasn't worth the effort.
Ah yeah.. I didn't think about that. Things like defusing mines so you can safely move your mech line forward or prevent damage in the middle of a fight.
Yeah, more units, micro is less important, but less units, micro is more important. Early game - micro, mid game - macro, late game - micro.
On November 15 2013 05:25 Pirfiktshon wrote: I think he is trying to make the game to much Like LoL With flashy abilities and explosions when if what was seen in this video were addressed we would have a highly functional game with a ton of micro possibilities and a MUCH MUCH MUCH higher skill ceiling that would separate high level players from the rest.....
I have a rudimentary (at best) idea of MOBA mechanics, but I cannot tell what the fuck is going on in LoL. For a colourblind person especially it resembles an animated Jackson Pollock painting
League is really bad for the disco party that happens every team fight. Dota is a little better, since there is more room and fewer disco effects. Also every fight with Protoss is a disco party and when colossi is involved its a flat out rave.
Omg, where is that gif the one of the war of the worlds cut with the Transformers? You probably know the one i'm talking about
I wasn't bashing MOBAs btw, I just don't think they're actually that easily comprehensible to non-players and aren't a good example of things that have appeal to non-player spectators.
Aha! Gold! So, overkill then, makes units efficient all the time, because of this, there is no incentive to split up armies. Therefore bigger army is always better. thanks for that
Sorry although i agree with everything falling wrote there... its useless effort. I mean the post is from last year and did something change? No. Blizzard wont change anything they dont understand.
I guess it's just me but I don't see DK's answer and Lalush's points of discussion as being mutually exclusive. It might be in how you interpret the answer, but it sounded to me like DK meant he doesn't want micro that is subtle and can't be distinguished visibly without prior knowledge on how to identify it. I don't think it's that bad of an answer provided they are actually looking for ways to give players more options to distinguish themselves via micro.
On November 16 2013 08:15 rd wrote: I guess it's just me but I don't see DK's answer and Lalush's points of discussion as being mutually exclusive. It might be in how you interpret the answer, but it sounded to me like DK meant he doesn't want micro that is subtle and can't be distinguished visibly without prior knowledge on how to identify it. I don't think it's that bad of an answer provided they are actually looking for ways to give players more options to distinguish themselves via micro.
To trade what they think is being subtle micro with non-appealling micro is stupid no matter what the intention is.
On November 16 2013 08:15 rd wrote: I guess it's just me but I don't see DK's answer and Lalush's points of discussion as being mutually exclusive. It might be in how you interpret the answer, but it sounded to me like DK meant he doesn't want micro that is subtle and can't be distinguished visibly without prior knowledge on how to identify it. I don't think it's that bad of an answer provided they are actually looking for ways to give players more options to distinguish themselves via micro.
To trade what they think is being subtle micro with non-appealling micro is stupid no matter what the intention is.
Do you try to be as abrasive as possible for the sake of being abrasive? They haven't specifically suggested anything yet in response for you to even call it non-appealing. The lack of solutions can be criticized in itself, but you can't have it both ways, citing a lack of micro tricks from BW while at the same time making the blanket statement that anything they could put forth to fill that void is non-appealing.
And it's not a matter of subjectivity in what someone considers subtle. No one would figure out patrol micro in a vacuum unless it was explained to them beforehand. That goes beyond the definition of subtle.
EPT
