On November 09 2013 17:23 YyapSsap wrote: To be honest I never knew how mutalisk stack/glide shoot micro was done in BW. But i found it so ridiculously addictive to watch and how pros used them to stop the mm pushes. You could immediately tell who were better in terms of control where some were so good the game was ended with pure mutalisk control... The important part is that I never needed to know how this was done in the first place to find it enjoyable to watch.
Micro in Brood War is difficult enough that you can see all the moves that players are doing, unlike in SC2 where it's automated. Every time your zerglings try to surround a prove in Brood War this is noticeable to spectators. Like you said, you don't have to know how it's done (although it's fun to investigate such things for casual and hardcore players alike), but you can see that it takes a lot of skillful moves on the screen. I think this sort of micro is more accessible than David Kim thinks it is, Brood War being the evidence for this.
On November 09 2013 17:23 YyapSsap wrote: To be honest I never knew how mutalisk stack/glide shoot micro was done in BW. But i found it so ridiculously addictive to watch and how pros used them to stop the mm pushes. You could immediately tell who were better in terms of control where some were so good the game was ended with pure mutalisk control... The important part is that I never needed to know how this was done in the first place to find it enjoyable to watch.
Micro in Brood War is difficult enough that you can see all the moves that players are doing, unlike in SC2 where it's automated. Every time your zerglings try to surround a prove in Brood War this is noticeable to spectators. Like you said, you don't have to know how it's done (although it's fun to investigate such things for casual and hardcore players alike), but you can see that it takes a lot of skillful moves on the screen. I think this sort of micro is more accessible than David Kim thinks it is, Brood War being the evidence for this.
Agreed. Like for instance, wraiths/speed shuttles dodging/juking scourges. Realistically it makes no sense in terms of the real world but... I never once thought about this. Its just so fun to watch the shuttle somehow get away by literally going left right reverse zigzag w/e. You can feel that it was *** hard for that pro to just did what he did.
In SC2, you basically die if your unit MS is lower than the attacking unit;;
On November 09 2013 17:12 ETisME wrote: What DK meant is that we don't need a non spectator friendly micro that requires a person to spent extensive amount of time to explain how the micro works.
We can have good micro by just having a unit with more micro potential without having these bw tricks, we can however have more units with more micro potential.
Creep spread for one is a great example on what he means by spectator friendly mechanics. How fast a zerg can creep up and how the terran controls it by using reaper hellions banshee.
Is this real life? Id actually call that non spectator friendly because they have no idea how important creep is in the first place.. and its visually boring. Sure casters hype it up and those who play ladder frequently know.. but to casuals?
I cant believe you can call those examples in Lalush's video non spectator friendly micro /smh
To be honest I never knew how mutalisk stack/glide shoot micro was done in BW. But i found it so ridiculously addictive to watch and how pros used them to stop the mm pushes. You could immediately tell who were better in terms of control where some were so good the game was ended with pure mutalisk control... The important part is that I never needed to know how this was done in the first place to find it enjoyable to watch.
Creep is actually best for casuals.
"The purple stuff is zerg territory, dont fight them there."
They look at map and depending on what game they watch the creep spread is different from player to player but the transparency is the same. purple is zerg base, non-purple is clean from zerg.
so it's hard to appreciate for the casual viewer... that's still no argument against it. they won't recognize that what they see takes a certain amount of skill. they also don't recognize that currwntly the units dont have such possibilities.
On November 09 2013 17:12 ETisME wrote: What DK meant is that we don't need a non spectator friendly micro that requires a person to spent extensive amount of time to explain how the micro works.
We can have good micro by just having a unit with more micro potential without having these bw tricks, we can however have more units with more micro potential.
Creep spread for one is a great example on what he means by spectator friendly mechanics. How fast a zerg can creep up and how the terran controls it by using reaper hellions banshee.
Is this real life? Id actually call that non spectator friendly because they have no idea how important creep is in the first place.. and its visually boring. Sure casters hype it up and those who play ladder frequently know.. but to casuals?
I cant believe you can call those examples in Lalush's video non spectator friendly micro /smh
To be honest I never knew how mutalisk stack/glide shoot micro was done in BW. But i found it so ridiculously addictive to watch and how pros used them to stop the mm pushes. You could immediately tell who were better in terms of control where some were so good the game was ended with pure mutalisk control... The important part is that I never needed to know how this was done in the first place to find it enjoyable to watch.
yes this is real life.
visually boring? everytime I go into chat with scarlett playing, everyone goes crazy at the creep spread. People go to judge a good/bad creep spreader by scarlett standard.
It's damn spectator friendly to see how much of a zerg is gaining grounds on the map as the game progresses, and you can clearly see the purple stuff on the minimap:
you said it yourself, the difficulty of the micro/how it was performed itself isn't important. It only requires the spectator to see what the micro allowed the player to do.
We just need to have more units that have good micro potential and it doesn't have to come from micros like gliding shots as long as the spectator can appreciate the micro.
How does a terran show that he is a better bio player? By looking at how he split his bio, it doesn't need the marines to have moving shots etc, all it needs is a short delay between fire and how the player control and what to do with them. Life lings for another example.
I started out with sc2, well at least it was the first RTS i played more than 50 or so online games. It was also the first game I watched lots of streams/tournaments of.
So from a noob spectator's perspective when i watched a few games of BW, i can say even worker vs worker micro was instantly noticeably more interesting to watch. It actually made me a bit jealous that its not in the game that I play.
On November 09 2013 17:12 ETisME wrote: What DK meant is that we don't need a non spectator friendly micro that requires a person to spent extensive amount of time to explain how the micro works.
We can have good micro by just having a unit with more micro potential without having these bw tricks, we can however have more units with more micro potential.
Creep spread for one is a great example on what he means by spectator friendly mechanics. How fast a zerg can creep up and how the terran controls it by using reaper hellions banshee.
Is this real life? Id actually call that non spectator friendly because they have no idea how important creep is in the first place.. and its visually boring. Sure casters hype it up and those who play ladder frequently know.. but to casuals?
I cant believe you can call those examples in Lalush's video non spectator friendly micro /smh
To be honest I never knew how mutalisk stack/glide shoot micro was done in BW. But i found it so ridiculously addictive to watch and how pros used them to stop the mm pushes. You could immediately tell who were better in terms of control where some were so good the game was ended with pure mutalisk control... The important part is that I never needed to know how this was done in the first place to find it enjoyable to watch.
yes this is real life.
visually boring? everytime I go into chat with scarlett playing, everyone goes crazy at the creep spread. People go to judge a good/bad creep spreader by scarlett standard.
It's damn spectator friendly to see how much of a zerg is gaining grounds on the map as the game progresses, and you can clearly see the purple stuff on the minimap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpXokjgbSEM
you said it yourself, the difficulty of the micro/how it was performed itself isn't important. It only requires the spectator to see what the micro allowed the player to do.
We just need to have more units that have good micro potential and it doesn't have to come from micros like gliding shots as long as the spectator can appreciate the micro.
How does a terran show that he is a better bio player? By looking at how he split his bio, it doesn't need the marines to have moving shots etc, all it needs is a short delay between fire and how the player control and what to do with them. Life lings for another example.
Lalush's video shows exactly what could be done to do that exactly (bolded part) especially to the dull air units SC2 current have where most of them are one trick ponies. And why not gliding shots? what else can be done? add more gimmicky abilities? Blizzards current answer seems to be "make units more faster!".
The turret mechanics seems like a really good start. Im all for less restrictions in "microing" the units like the OP's video suggests because balance is a non-issue as this can always be... balanced.
edit - Marine splits and life lings are great. We need more of these. We all agree on that. However we want more of this from other units but its just not happening due to how dull most units have been designed in the first place and now Lalush have exposed the flaws within the SC2 engine to show why those micros that most were firmiliar in BW (those that further differentiated players - marine splits/life lings were all there in BW) is just not happening in SC2.
^If you dont add micro by making the units more maneuverable than what would you add? More abbilities/spells? That would only cluster up the game and make things even unfriendlier for the casual gamer.
And btw casuals are not retards, they can put two and two together.
On November 09 2013 18:26 NukeD wrote: ^If you dont add micro by making the units more maneuverable than what would you add? More abbilities/spells? That would only cluster up the game and make things even unfriendlier for the casual gamer.
And btw casuals are not retards, they can put two and two together.
Completely agree.
I dont know why but alot more people are educated these days than 10 years ago. Yet game devs feel the urge to baby sit the players... Its a global problem plaguing games across every genre these days. refer to the video below.
On November 09 2013 18:18 THE_oldy wrote: I started out with sc2, well at least it was the first RTS i played more than 50 or so online games. It was also the first game I watched lots of streams/tournaments of.
So from a noob spectator's perspective when i watched a few games of BW, i can say even worker vs worker micro was instantly noticeably more interesting to watch. It actually made me a bit jealous that its not in the game that I play.
Nah man, you don't know what you're talking about. It's the exact opposite, you are just confused, that's all, confused. DK told us that. DK can do better.
On November 09 2013 17:12 ETisME wrote: What DK meant is that we don't need a non spectator friendly micro that requires a person to spent extensive amount of time to explain how the micro works.
We can have good micro by just having a unit with more micro potential without having these bw tricks, we can however have more units with more micro potential.
Creep spread for one is a great example on what he means by spectator friendly mechanics. How fast a zerg can creep up and how the terran controls it by using reaper hellions banshee.
Is this real life? Id actually call that non spectator friendly because they have no idea how important creep is in the first place.. and its visually boring. Sure casters hype it up and those who play ladder frequently know.. but to casuals?
I cant believe you can call those examples in Lalush's video non spectator friendly micro /smh
To be honest I never knew how mutalisk stack/glide shoot micro was done in BW. But i found it so ridiculously addictive to watch and how pros used them to stop the mm pushes. You could immediately tell who were better in terms of control where some were so good the game was ended with pure mutalisk control... The important part is that I never needed to know how this was done in the first place to find it enjoyable to watch.
yes this is real life.
visually boring? everytime I go into chat with scarlett playing, everyone goes crazy at the creep spread. People go to judge a good/bad creep spreader by scarlett standard.
It's damn spectator friendly to see how much of a zerg is gaining grounds on the map as the game progresses, and you can clearly see the purple stuff on the minimap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpXokjgbSEM
you said it yourself, the difficulty of the micro/how it was performed itself isn't important. It only requires the spectator to see what the micro allowed the player to do.
We just need to have more units that have good micro potential and it doesn't have to come from micros like gliding shots as long as the spectator can appreciate the micro.
How does a terran show that he is a better bio player? By looking at how he split his bio, it doesn't need the marines to have moving shots etc, all it needs is a short delay between fire and how the player control and what to do with them. Life lings for another example.
Lalush's video shows exactly what could be done to do that exactly (bolded part) especially to the dull air units SC2 current have where most of them are one trick ponies. And why not gliding shots? what else can be done? add more gimmicky abilities? Blizzards current answer seems to be "make units more faster!".
The turret mechanics seems like a really good start. Im all for less restrictions in "microing" the units like the OP's video suggests because balance is a non-issue as this can always be... balanced.
his changes like that modified vikings/banshee?? When everyone is expecting pro terrans doing this to snipe air units, it isn't going to be appreciated. Just look at banshee control in TvT. At the start till mid of WoL, everyone was pretty amazed at banshee control until now when everyone expect it from all the Terran pro. While look at bio split, for example, still is one of the most appreciated micro to show in SC2.
I am not against having more micro-able units, but just because having more micro-able units don't mean the unit micro is going to be appreciated. Muta stack to snipe mines for another example, no one gets excited at muta sniping the mines or a turret.
And you don't necessary need to make a unit more micro-able to make the micro more interesting, You can just increase the dynamics between the units interaction. Like how baneling forces bio to split. Or how fungal forces bio to split.
another example, roach hydra vs toss FF. Roach hydra player differentiate themselves by arranging their flanks according to the FF location
In all seriousness though the main issue is in a competitive rts e-sport environment anything that takes control away from the players is a FUCKING BAD THING.
When Kobe or Lebron misses a shot its cause THEY FUCKED UP not the game fucking them up.
I think that was the main point behind the depth of micro.
On November 09 2013 18:55 BreakingBrad wrote: Honestly what a joke david kim is.
In all seriousness though the main issue is in a competitive rts e-sport environment anything that takes control away from the players is a FUCKING BAD THING.
When Kobe or Lebron misses a shot its cause THEY FUCKED UP not the game fucking them up.
I think that was the main point behind the depth of micro.
When JD throws a game, it is because he choked like ZerO, not the game fucking him up.
On November 09 2013 17:12 ETisME wrote: What DK meant is that we don't need a non spectator friendly micro that requires a person to spent extensive amount of time to explain how the micro works.
We can have good micro by just having a unit with more micro potential without having these bw tricks, we can however have more units with more micro potential.
Creep spread for one is a great example on what he means by spectator friendly mechanics. How fast a zerg can creep up and how the terran controls it by using reaper hellions banshee.
Is this real life? Id actually call that non spectator friendly because they have no idea how important creep is in the first place.. and its visually boring. Sure casters hype it up and those who play ladder frequently know.. but to casuals?
I cant believe you can call those examples in Lalush's video non spectator friendly micro /smh
To be honest I never knew how mutalisk stack/glide shoot micro was done in BW. But i found it so ridiculously addictive to watch and how pros used them to stop the mm pushes. You could immediately tell who were better in terms of control where some were so good the game was ended with pure mutalisk control... The important part is that I never needed to know how this was done in the first place to find it enjoyable to watch.
yes this is real life.
visually boring? everytime I go into chat with scarlett playing, everyone goes crazy at the creep spread. People go to judge a good/bad creep spreader by scarlett standard.
It's damn spectator friendly to see how much of a zerg is gaining grounds on the map as the game progresses, and you can clearly see the purple stuff on the minimap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpXokjgbSEM
you said it yourself, the difficulty of the micro/how it was performed itself isn't important. It only requires the spectator to see what the micro allowed the player to do.
We just need to have more units that have good micro potential and it doesn't have to come from micros like gliding shots as long as the spectator can appreciate the micro.
How does a terran show that he is a better bio player? By looking at how he split his bio, it doesn't need the marines to have moving shots etc, all it needs is a short delay between fire and how the player control and what to do with them. Life lings for another example.
Marines do have moving shots, if you watch stutter step micro (that currently is in sc2 now) the marines actually fire into the air while walking. Marines have almost no delay after attacking, but the animation takes time.
This is a perfect example, you can appreciate the cool micro of marines splitting and stutter-stepping vs banlings, without understanding what makes it work so well. Lalush wants more of this in the game, and so do I.
These are the types of things casuals see and say "I want to do that!" and then they figure out how it's done, thus playing and appreciating the game more. It's also what makes casuals who see it, then try it, have a much greater appreciation for the best pro players who make it look so damn easy. Depth in game-play is what made broodwar's popularity last from the late 90's up until last year.
David Kim hiding behind casuals as the reason they aren't implementing this is nonsense.
lol at the pplz saying creep spread is micro, its deadweight micro, u dont even have to use ur brain to do it. Micro should be bout battling b and forth with units, minimizing dmg taken while dealing maximum dmg.
the vid clearly demonstrates that sc2's engine is prohibiting alot of micro mechanics taht existed in bw.
On November 09 2013 18:55 BreakingBrad wrote: Honestly what a joke david kim is.
In all seriousness though the main issue is in a competitive rts e-sport environment anything that takes control away from the players is a FUCKING BAD THING.
When Kobe or Lebron misses a shot its cause THEY FUCKED UP not the game fucking them up.
I think that was the main point behind the depth of micro.
When JD throws a game, it is because he choked like ZerO, not the game fucking him up.
I think that was the main point behind the SC2.
obviously yah but i'm talking about the point of the depth of micro video bro.
the point being the reason why there isnt as much micro and depth in sc2 is because of engine prevents people who want to do that and punish players for trying.
Why do you think so many BW pros retired because they can't do what they did in bw because the engine stops them bro.
On November 09 2013 18:55 BreakingBrad wrote: Honestly what a joke david kim is.
In all seriousness though the main issue is in a competitive rts e-sport environment anything that takes control away from the players is a FUCKING BAD THING.
When Kobe or Lebron misses a shot its cause THEY FUCKED UP not the game fucking them up.
I think that was the main point behind the depth of micro.
When JD throws a game, it is because he choked like ZerO, not the game fucking him up.
I think that was the main point behind the SC2.
obviously yah but i'm talking about the point of the depth of micro video bro.
the point being the reason why there isnt as much micro and depth in sc2 is because of engine prevents people who want to do that and punish players for trying.
Why do you think so many BW pros retired because they can't do what they did in bw because the engine stops them bro.
BW pros had thousand of other reasons to retire. Salary cut, for example, ask Bisu.
On November 09 2013 18:55 BreakingBrad wrote: Honestly what a joke david kim is.
In all seriousness though the main issue is in a competitive rts e-sport environment anything that takes control away from the players is a FUCKING BAD THING.
When Kobe or Lebron misses a shot its cause THEY FUCKED UP not the game fucking them up.
I think that was the main point behind the depth of micro.
When JD throws a game, it is because he choked like ZerO, not the game fucking him up.
I think that was the main point behind the SC2.
obviously yah but i'm talking about the point of the depth of micro video bro.
the point being the reason why there isnt as much micro and depth in sc2 is because of engine prevents people who want to do that and punish players for trying.
Why do you think so many BW pros retired because they can't do what they did in bw because the engine stops them bro.
BW pros had thousand of other reasons to retire. Salary cut, for example, ask Bisu.
Yah cause they were not performing the way they did in BW due to the reason above.
On November 09 2013 18:55 BreakingBrad wrote: Honestly what a joke david kim is.
In all seriousness though the main issue is in a competitive rts e-sport environment anything that takes control away from the players is a FUCKING BAD THING.
When Kobe or Lebron misses a shot its cause THEY FUCKED UP not the game fucking them up.
I think that was the main point behind the depth of micro.
When JD throws a game, it is because he choked like ZerO, not the game fucking him up.
I think that was the main point behind the SC2.
obviously yah but i'm talking about the point of the depth of micro video bro.
the point being the reason why there isnt as much micro and depth in sc2 is because of engine prevents people who want to do that and punish players for trying.
Why do you think so many BW pros retired because they can't do what they did in bw because the engine stops them bro.
BW pros had thousand of other reasons to retire. Salary cut, for example, ask Bisu.
Yah cause they were not performing the way they did in BW due to the reason above.
Because their decision making in SC2 (game they were forced to play actually, do not forget, and it is not game's fault they liked other one) was not good enough?
EPT
