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On October 29 2013 00:08 RampancyTW wrote:Oh hey, look! Another thread where people who don't even play SC2 (or play it poorly) and definitely don't watch high-level SC2 talk about the game-breaking problems the game has that, uh, literally don't exist. Just look at this gem! Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 16:53 Talin wrote:On October 28 2013 16:16 flashimba wrote:
The deathball is fine as it is. With skill levels rising, we are progressively seeing more and more dynamic gameplay. Look at any match from <insert top 10 player>.
How many years did it take for BW to evolve? 7 years for iloveoov macro, 8 years for Zerg to be revolutionized.
SC2 has only been out for 2 years, which is NOTHING compared to the evolution of BW. Alas, we are all impatient and dismiss any faults we see without giving the game a chance to evolve on its own. I don't think that games are better now than they were in 2010-11 skillwise. The builds are more refined and players have deeper knowledge of all the strategic nuances, but they're not any more skilled than they were back in the day. The game simply doesn't reward high-octane, high skill requirement plays - and more than often ends up punishing them for the smallest of mistakes. It's more of a flashy thing that ultimately doesn't have a lot of impact on the outcome of the game. You can have godly execution, but make one bad decision or misjudge the situation for a minute, and the player who was being taken to school all game long will suddenly get the correct composition and poop all over you. Yawn. The game will never evolve to the point of rewarding skill based plays, because it was not designed that way. I like that the more high-level players show that deathball play is suboptimal, the more idiots on TL whine about how the deathball is the death knell of SC2. Newsflash: the solution to deathball play is to stop playing with a deathball, because good non-deathball play will trump good deathball play almost every time.
Yeah, this. Not a single top player plays in a deathball style these days, because its been shown repeatedly to be sub-optimal on the highest level, and anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't been paying attention.
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The deathball is surely going out of style, but I didn't mind it too much in the first place either. In comparison to the scrappy fights in BW, I much prefer the slick army movement of sc2, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I can understand why some people dislike the way in which units handle in sc2, but for most people the pathing and clumping makes the game more playable. However, the clumping is, as already mentioned, fading away in progames, so it's becoming a non-issue when it comes to viewing sc2 either way.
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I think the problem lies more within how the deathballs play out in the game. Deathballs happened in WC3 and BW all the time to but the difference was the interaction of the units was much better.
TvP hit 200/200 relatively quickly in almost every game in BW. However the unit interaction with the deathballs made it amazing to play out this late game scenario. First position was supremely important. The T had to gain a lot of space and get a nice tank spread that would effectively cover all of his expansions yet remain tight enough that the P couldnt just walk over one area. Then we had a lot of tactics on going in the battles such as templar storm drops on the tank line, zeal bombs, and drops both players had access to effective drops not just one race.
The most important part was that if one race won a big battle the game was not over yet, because if T won the battle the mech army was slow so his gain was to take more space and squeeze P out of the map. If the P won the battle he would be met by a mine field and a bunch of tanks so he would take a battle victory and turn it into more map control and expansions.
Do you guys see how in depth that is?
Now compare that to the bullshit that is SC2 TvP.
TvP unit interaction is terrible. Gateway units suck against Bio at the early stages. So the P is forced to turtle up into higher tech units. Map control pointless? The whole point is to get the endgame army. T can take the whole map and still lose. T has to keep harrassing protoss or he will die, no point in taking a ton of expansions and setting up a good position on the map just harass and if you do enough damage you can pull all scvs and just win.
If both players get to 200 the MU is now highly favoring Protoss yet now there is really no point in map control just grab the neccessary expansions and walk over to a T expo and force their blob vs your blob. Instead of worrying about real positional stuff like map control and distance to base and flanks, instead just worry that army is kind of split so you dont get emped. Both sides engage, the only real micro is emp vs storm. One side wins, GG.
Im not saying BW 2 PLZ. SO please dont give me that response. Just analyzing and comparing. I dont care if TvP ends up with Thor BC vs something else or something wierd like that, it just needs to be fun and have more DEPTH. There is 0 depth to TvP right now and for the last 3 years.
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On October 29 2013 00:27 XXXSmOke wrote:
I think the problem lies more within how the deathballs play out in the game. Deathballs happened in WC3 and BW all the time to but the difference was the interaction of the units was much better.
TvP hit 200/200 relatively quickly in almost every game in BW. However the unit interaction with the deathballs made it amazing to play out this late game scenario. First position was supremely important. The T had to gain a lot of space and get a nice tank spread that would effectively cover all of his expansions yet remain tight enough that the P couldnt just walk over one area. Then we had a lot of tactics on going in the battles such as templar storm drops on the tank line, zeal bombs, and drops both players had access to effective drops not just one race.
The most important part was that if one race won a big battle the game was not over yet, because if T won the battle the mech army was slow so his gain was to take more space and squeeze P out of the map. If the P won the battle he would be met by a mine field and a bunch of tanks so he would take a battle victory and turn it into more map control and expansions.
Do you guys see how in depth that is?
Now compare that to the bullshit that is SC2 TvP.
TvP unit interaction is terrible. Gateway units suck against Bio at the early stages. So the P is forced to turtle up into higher tech units. Map control pointless? The whole point is to get the endgame army. T can take the whole map and still lose. T has to keep harrassing protoss or he will die, no point in taking a ton of expansions and setting up a good position on the map just harass and if you do enough damage you can pull all scvs and just win.
If both players get to 200 the MU is now highly favoring Protoss yet now there is really no point in map control just grab the neccessary expansions and walk over to a T expo and force their blob vs your blob. Instead of worrying about real positional stuff like map control and distance to base and flanks, instead just worry that army is kind of split so you dont get emped. Both sides engage, the only real micro is emp vs storm. One side wins, GG.
This is a problem in PvZ and PvP too.... It all boils down to Protoss unit design. Individually Protoss units stink, except blink stalkers in early game. Its really stupid when a situation happen where if protoss units are caught split they die in seconds but if the same units are bunched together they kill everything in seconds. From what I understand of BW dragoons and zealots had some autonomy but in SC2 the protoss blob attacks as one.
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WTF are you talking about? The WCS season 3 finals had great PvT and very little death ball like play. There was amazing flanks, storm drops, early aggression and punishing builds. I swear the guy posting above was right, these threads are filled with people who don't play or watch SC2.
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From watching WCS this weekend, I don't think the Deathball was an issue. There was a lot of harassment from Dear (harassing with Oracles, Phoenixes and drops) to gain some advantage before assembling an attack. Maru certainly didn't deathball at all, and the zerg deathballs usually lost (except against another zerg).
I don't really see a problem with positioning, composition, and timing in a big fight winning games though.
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On October 29 2013 00:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +Eh, agree to disagree then, I find any protoss matchup about as fun as shaving my balls with a cheese grater. It's better, but nearly good enough.
Yeah, I don't understand or agree with that at all. These most recent WCS finals were fucking fantastic and had tons of great games, and it was the most Protoss-heavy major tournament of the year. Nearly every match involved a Protoss, and it produced tons and tons of amazing games. Dear especially was just showcasing incredible play in every single game, and his series with Maru was jaw-droppingly good...and, more relevant to the thread at hand, almost none of the games featured "deathball" play in any meaningful sense.
I don't think those games were anywhere near as good or fun as any above average TvT. Dear vs Maru was a series of very ambitious but sometimes overeager attacks by Maru, with no tech behind, and when Dear stabilized he just moved out with a better army and crushed him.
If anything, that was a perfect example of how more or less every fight before the big showdown becomes almost inconsequential compared to the big 20 second battle that decides the game.
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On October 29 2013 00:34 MrLightning wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 00:27 XXXSmOke wrote:
I think the problem lies more within how the deathballs play out in the game. Deathballs happened in WC3 and BW all the time to but the difference was the interaction of the units was much better.
TvP hit 200/200 relatively quickly in almost every game in BW. However the unit interaction with the deathballs made it amazing to play out this late game scenario. First position was supremely important. The T had to gain a lot of space and get a nice tank spread that would effectively cover all of his expansions yet remain tight enough that the P couldnt just walk over one area. Then we had a lot of tactics on going in the battles such as templar storm drops on the tank line, zeal bombs, and drops both players had access to effective drops not just one race.
The most important part was that if one race won a big battle the game was not over yet, because if T won the battle the mech army was slow so his gain was to take more space and squeeze P out of the map. If the P won the battle he would be met by a mine field and a bunch of tanks so he would take a battle victory and turn it into more map control and expansions.
Do you guys see how in depth that is?
Now compare that to the bullshit that is SC2 TvP.
TvP unit interaction is terrible. Gateway units suck against Bio at the early stages. So the P is forced to turtle up into higher tech units. Map control pointless? The whole point is to get the endgame army. T can take the whole map and still lose. T has to keep harrassing protoss or he will die, no point in taking a ton of expansions and setting up a good position on the map just harass and if you do enough damage you can pull all scvs and just win.
If both players get to 200 the MU is now highly favoring Protoss yet now there is really no point in map control just grab the neccessary expansions and walk over to a T expo and force their blob vs your blob. Instead of worrying about real positional stuff like map control and distance to base and flanks, instead just worry that army is kind of split so you dont get emped. Both sides engage, the only real micro is emp vs storm. One side wins, GG. This is a problem in PvZ and PvP too.... It all boils down to Protoss unit design. Individually Protoss units stink, except blink stalkers in early game. Its really stupid when a situation happen where if protoss units are caught split they die in seconds but if the same units are bunched together they kill everything in seconds. From what I understand of BW dragoons and zealots had some autonomy but in SC2 the protoss blob attacks as one.
Yea, PvZ had a lot of deathballs in BW to, but then again PvZ had some of the coolest shit in BW. The standard PvZ had the craziest midgame with just shit happening everywhere once P broke out of the contain on his forge expo. So by the time you had a big ball of P units the people watching the game already had there mind blown.
Then you also had the bisu style which was a very clever strategy that relied on notable harassment into a hopefully won late game. But the PvZ deathballs were insane. Ultra+Crackling+deflier vs a mixed P army instead of a 10 second fight that battle could just go on and on and on as the Z would just keep pounding the P army to submission.
I will agree that in SC2 P is unanimously the biggest problem race in the game. TvZ in SC2 has had some very very good games back in 2011. At that time PvZ was horribad with collsus void ray lulz. And TvP was in the same boat as it is now. If the other MU's were good at that point we could of seen an actual good game. But you cant just have one MU be good and have a successful RTS because at that point your playing warcraft 2.
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On October 29 2013 00:40 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 00:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Eh, agree to disagree then, I find any protoss matchup about as fun as shaving my balls with a cheese grater. It's better, but nearly good enough.
Yeah, I don't understand or agree with that at all. These most recent WCS finals were fucking fantastic and had tons of great games, and it was the most Protoss-heavy major tournament of the year. Nearly every match involved a Protoss, and it produced tons and tons of amazing games. Dear especially was just showcasing incredible play in every single game, and his series with Maru was jaw-droppingly good...and, more relevant to the thread at hand, almost none of the games featured "deathball" play in any meaningful sense. I don't think those games were anywhere near as good or fun as any above average TvT. Dear vs Maru was a series of very ambitious but sometimes overeager attacks by Maru, with no tech behind, and when Dear stabilized he just moved out with a better army and crushed him. If anything, that was a perfect example of how more or less every fight before the big showdown becomes almost inconsequential compared to the big 20 second battle that decides the game. You really don't get it.
The "big showdown" is essentially a coup de grace. It's one player knowing that he's good enough to capitalize on his advantages and end the game. It's all of the little attacks and engagements before the big showdown that led to the win.
You're saying that the little things don't matter because the big thing ended it. But the reality is that the little things are EXACTLY what matters because the big thing wouldn't have ended it without them.
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I don't think those games were anywhere near as good or fun as any above average TvT. Dear vs Maru was a series of very ambitious but sometimes overeager attacks by Maru, with no tech behind, and when Dear stabilized he just moved out with a better army and crushed him.
If anything, that was a perfect example of how more or less every fight before the big showdown becomes almost inconsequential compared to the big 20 second battle that decides the game.
99% of Protoss would fold to the sort of aggression Maru was putting out on multiple fronts at all point, and at every single stage Dear had just enough to barely hold it off with perfect micro. And there was never "one big showdown" that decided the entire game--once Dear had his desired composition, he had Maru on the defensive, but where were still numerous back and forth engagements and counterattacks, and both players were dropping continuously, including some really impressive storm drops by Dear.
If you weren't impressed by that series, than frankly I just don't think you enjoy SC2, and you should probably stop watching it and posting about it.
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On October 28 2013 15:42 bearhug wrote:
We all know that the deathball problem is a flaw of sc2. Sadly, there has been no attempt made by Blizzard to address the issue since the release of the game three years ago.
False
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On October 29 2013 00:35 Plansix wrote:
WTF are you talking about? The WCS season 3 finals had great PvT and very little death ball like play. There was amazing flanks, storm drops, early aggression and punishing builds. I swear the guy posting above was right, these threads are filled with people who don't play or watch SC2. You can add XXXSmoke to that list of people.
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On October 29 2013 00:48 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 00:40 Squat wrote:On October 29 2013 00:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Eh, agree to disagree then, I find any protoss matchup about as fun as shaving my balls with a cheese grater. It's better, but nearly good enough.
Yeah, I don't understand or agree with that at all. These most recent WCS finals were fucking fantastic and had tons of great games, and it was the most Protoss-heavy major tournament of the year. Nearly every match involved a Protoss, and it produced tons and tons of amazing games. Dear especially was just showcasing incredible play in every single game, and his series with Maru was jaw-droppingly good...and, more relevant to the thread at hand, almost none of the games featured "deathball" play in any meaningful sense. I don't think those games were anywhere near as good or fun as any above average TvT. Dear vs Maru was a series of very ambitious but sometimes overeager attacks by Maru, with no tech behind, and when Dear stabilized he just moved out with a better army and crushed him. If anything, that was a perfect example of how more or less every fight before the big showdown becomes almost inconsequential compared to the big 20 second battle that decides the game. You really don't get it. The "big showdown" is essentially a coup de grace. It's one player knowing that he's good enough to capitalize on his advantages and end the game. It's all of the little attacks and engagements before the big showdown that led to the win. You're saying that the little things don't matter because the big thing ended it. But the reality is that the little things are EXACTLY what matters because the big thing wouldn't have ended it without them.
Its like in MC vs. Hack--MC ended up killing the bulk of Hack's army by landing perfect storms, but the only reason he was able to do that was because he was continuously sniping medivacs throughout the game, so that in a major engagement Hack didn't have the healing he needed. If you just looked at the 10 seconds where Hack got romped by storms and concluded that the storms were what one the game, that would be an incredibly shallow understanding of the game, but that seems to be the level some people operate at.
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On October 28 2013 16:53 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 16:16 flashimba wrote:
The deathball is fine as it is. With skill levels rising, we are progressively seeing more and more dynamic gameplay. Look at any match from <insert top 10 player>.
How many years did it take for BW to evolve? 7 years for iloveoov macro, 8 years for Zerg to be revolutionized.
SC2 has only been out for 2 years, which is NOTHING compared to the evolution of BW. Alas, we are all impatient and dismiss any faults we see without giving the game a chance to evolve on its own. I don't think that games are better now than they were in 2010-11 skillwise. The builds are more refined and players have deeper knowledge of all the strategic nuances, but they're not any more skilled than they were back in the day. The game simply doesn't reward high-octane, high skill requirement plays - and more than often ends up punishing them for the smallest of mistakes. It's more of a flashy thing that ultimately doesn't have a lot of impact on the outcome of the game. You can have godly execution, but make one bad decision or misjudge the situation for a minute, and the player who was being taken to school all game long will suddenly get the correct composition and poop all over you. Yawn. The game will never evolve to the point of rewarding skill based plays, because it was not designed that way.
I guess you haven't been watching carefully enough. Every player has pretty much increased skill wise. The games now are just significantly better than they were before. Players are splitting up armies, attacking on multiple fronts without the use of mobility giving units or with the use of them, and, most importantly, are being significantly more creative. The game definitely rewards high octane, high skill plays, the only issue is that the game also allows for the immediate loss of all units in one battle which is a problem. Also, having "godly execution" would mean that the mistakes you mentioned shouldn't happen by definition.
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I think a lot of people talk past each other here. I think everybody can agree that there is usually no "build one army while doing nothing else, then push" anymore. But thats not really the point of the deathballs in sc2. YES they is more harass, but in the end it oftem comes down to the one big toss army nonetheless. While i agree that the games are much better than before, to say there is no deathballplay is just ignorant. There are deathballs in every PvX , cause toss HAS to use their big ball cause its so fucking effective.
The interactions between these deathballs is what is lacking in sc2 the most, tvt, tvz and to a lesse extent zvz (maybe roach vs roach not so much) are much better in that perspective cause it feels more rewarding to play these big fights (and it doesnt snowball that hard most of the time).
So yeah i can totally understand why anyone would say he doesnt like most of the PvX matchups (that doesnt mean that there are only bad games, but ehy could be MUCH MUCH better still)
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On October 29 2013 00:48 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 00:40 Squat wrote:On October 29 2013 00:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Eh, agree to disagree then, I find any protoss matchup about as fun as shaving my balls with a cheese grater. It's better, but nearly good enough.
Yeah, I don't understand or agree with that at all. These most recent WCS finals were fucking fantastic and had tons of great games, and it was the most Protoss-heavy major tournament of the year. Nearly every match involved a Protoss, and it produced tons and tons of amazing games. Dear especially was just showcasing incredible play in every single game, and his series with Maru was jaw-droppingly good...and, more relevant to the thread at hand, almost none of the games featured "deathball" play in any meaningful sense. I don't think those games were anywhere near as good or fun as any above average TvT. Dear vs Maru was a series of very ambitious but sometimes overeager attacks by Maru, with no tech behind, and when Dear stabilized he just moved out with a better army and crushed him. If anything, that was a perfect example of how more or less every fight before the big showdown becomes almost inconsequential compared to the big 20 second battle that decides the game. You really don't get it. The "big showdown" is essentially a coup de grace. It's one player knowing that he's good enough to capitalize on his advantages and end the game. It's all of the little attacks and engagements before the big showdown that led to the win. You're saying that the little things don't matter because the big thing ended it. But the reality is that the little things are EXACTLY what matters because the big thing wouldn't have ended it without them.
I get it just fine, I just don't agree with you. I've seen the exact same result after watching one player get mauled for 20 minutes, only to get one good engagement and crush his opponent's army and promptly win.
As I said, I'm not denying it's gotten a lot better, I just don't think it's anywhere near good enough yet. PvT is not nearly as bad as PvZ though, there's that.
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On October 29 2013 00:51 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 00:48 RampancyTW wrote:On October 29 2013 00:40 Squat wrote:On October 29 2013 00:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Eh, agree to disagree then, I find any protoss matchup about as fun as shaving my balls with a cheese grater. It's better, but nearly good enough.
Yeah, I don't understand or agree with that at all. These most recent WCS finals were fucking fantastic and had tons of great games, and it was the most Protoss-heavy major tournament of the year. Nearly every match involved a Protoss, and it produced tons and tons of amazing games. Dear especially was just showcasing incredible play in every single game, and his series with Maru was jaw-droppingly good...and, more relevant to the thread at hand, almost none of the games featured "deathball" play in any meaningful sense. I don't think those games were anywhere near as good or fun as any above average TvT. Dear vs Maru was a series of very ambitious but sometimes overeager attacks by Maru, with no tech behind, and when Dear stabilized he just moved out with a better army and crushed him. If anything, that was a perfect example of how more or less every fight before the big showdown becomes almost inconsequential compared to the big 20 second battle that decides the game. You really don't get it. The "big showdown" is essentially a coup de grace. It's one player knowing that he's good enough to capitalize on his advantages and end the game. It's all of the little attacks and engagements before the big showdown that led to the win. You're saying that the little things don't matter because the big thing ended it. But the reality is that the little things are EXACTLY what matters because the big thing wouldn't have ended it without them. Its like in MC vs. Hack--MC ended up killing the bulk of Hack's army by landing perfect storms, but the only reason he was able to do that was because he was continuously sniping medivacs throughout the game, so that in a major engagement Hack didn't have the healing he needed. If you just looked at the 10 seconds where Hack got romped by storms and concluded that the storms were what one the game, that would be an incredibly shallow understanding of the game, but that seems to be the level some people operate at. Yeah. I think a lot of people would just see "oh okay MC is just trying to snipe some units oh wow he lost 2 stalkers for only a single medivac that's not a good resource trade etc." and end up thinking Hack is ahead, when really MC is pulling ahead every time he's able to trade a few stalkers for a couple medivacs because it makes his tech units so much more effective.
So they just see "Wow Hack was winning and MC just killed him with a few storms at the end" while the reality is "Wow, MC orchestrated that game almost perfectly to ensure he would be able to conduct a killing blow."
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So much issues with the game come directly from Protoss' design :/
TvT and TvZ are really fun to watch and play, (ZvZ can't comment since I play T), but TvP is such a horrible matchup :/
I'd go as far as saying that if they just straight up removed P from the game it'll actually improve TvT/TvZ/ZvZ gameplay since it would remove quite a lot of map design constraints and allow a much more diverse map pool as a consequence 
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On October 29 2013 00:56 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 00:48 RampancyTW wrote:On October 29 2013 00:40 Squat wrote:On October 29 2013 00:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Eh, agree to disagree then, I find any protoss matchup about as fun as shaving my balls with a cheese grater. It's better, but nearly good enough.
Yeah, I don't understand or agree with that at all. These most recent WCS finals were fucking fantastic and had tons of great games, and it was the most Protoss-heavy major tournament of the year. Nearly every match involved a Protoss, and it produced tons and tons of amazing games. Dear especially was just showcasing incredible play in every single game, and his series with Maru was jaw-droppingly good...and, more relevant to the thread at hand, almost none of the games featured "deathball" play in any meaningful sense. I don't think those games were anywhere near as good or fun as any above average TvT. Dear vs Maru was a series of very ambitious but sometimes overeager attacks by Maru, with no tech behind, and when Dear stabilized he just moved out with a better army and crushed him. If anything, that was a perfect example of how more or less every fight before the big showdown becomes almost inconsequential compared to the big 20 second battle that decides the game. You really don't get it. The "big showdown" is essentially a coup de grace. It's one player knowing that he's good enough to capitalize on his advantages and end the game. It's all of the little attacks and engagements before the big showdown that led to the win. You're saying that the little things don't matter because the big thing ended it. But the reality is that the little things are EXACTLY what matters because the big thing wouldn't have ended it without them. I get it just fine, I just don't agree with you. I've seen the exact same result after watching one player get mauled for 20 minutes, only to get one good engagement and crush his opponent's army and promptly win. As I said, I'm not denying it's gotten a lot better, I just don't think it's anywhere near good enough yet. PvT is not nearly as bad as PvZ though, there's that. If you think this is the case, you really don't understand the game. I'm not saying that to be insulting. I'm saying that because you aren't aware of all of the factors going into a high-level game if you think one player can get truly mauled for 20 minutes and win in one good engagement willy-nilly.
I've seen players have LEADS for 20 minutes, sometimes crushing leads, throw them away by leaving 10 tanks unguarded while simultaneously throwing 2000min/1500gas into extraneous upgrades, unnecessary CCs, and what have you and be left without enough resources to rebuild their army, but that's not the game's fault. That's a player misjudging his position and losing. And he deserves to lose, for making such a glaring mistake against an opponent that was clearly not as behind as he thought.
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On October 29 2013 00:56 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 00:48 RampancyTW wrote:On October 29 2013 00:40 Squat wrote:On October 29 2013 00:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Eh, agree to disagree then, I find any protoss matchup about as fun as shaving my balls with a cheese grater. It's better, but nearly good enough.
Yeah, I don't understand or agree with that at all. These most recent WCS finals were fucking fantastic and had tons of great games, and it was the most Protoss-heavy major tournament of the year. Nearly every match involved a Protoss, and it produced tons and tons of amazing games. Dear especially was just showcasing incredible play in every single game, and his series with Maru was jaw-droppingly good...and, more relevant to the thread at hand, almost none of the games featured "deathball" play in any meaningful sense. I don't think those games were anywhere near as good or fun as any above average TvT. Dear vs Maru was a series of very ambitious but sometimes overeager attacks by Maru, with no tech behind, and when Dear stabilized he just moved out with a better army and crushed him. If anything, that was a perfect example of how more or less every fight before the big showdown becomes almost inconsequential compared to the big 20 second battle that decides the game. You really don't get it. The "big showdown" is essentially a coup de grace. It's one player knowing that he's good enough to capitalize on his advantages and end the game. It's all of the little attacks and engagements before the big showdown that led to the win. You're saying that the little things don't matter because the big thing ended it. But the reality is that the little things are EXACTLY what matters because the big thing wouldn't have ended it without them. I get it just fine, I just don't agree with you. I've seen the exact same result after watching one player get mauled for 20 minutes, only to get one good engagement and crush his opponent's army and promptly win. As I said, I'm not denying it's gotten a lot better, I just don't think it's anywhere near good enough yet. PvT is not nearly as bad as PvZ though, there's that.
I'm guessing you didn't watch WCS KR Finals. That was some of the best PvZ I've seen, and as a Terran I sometimes skip PvZ. Not anymore.
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EPT
