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So much issues with the game come directly from Protoss' design :/
TvT and TvZ are really fun to watch and play, (ZvZ can't comment since I play T), but TvP is such a horrible matchup :/
I'd go as far as saying that if they just straight up removed P from the game it'll actually improve TvT/TvZ/ZvZ gameplay since it would remove quite a lot of map design constraints and allow a much more diverse map pool as a consequence
These most recent GSL Finals were both the best tournament of the year so far, and the most Protoss heavy tournament of the year so far.
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On October 29 2013 00:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +I don't think those games were anywhere near as good or fun as any above average TvT. Dear vs Maru was a series of very ambitious but sometimes overeager attacks by Maru, with no tech behind, and when Dear stabilized he just moved out with a better army and crushed him.
If anything, that was a perfect example of how more or less every fight before the big showdown becomes almost inconsequential compared to the big 20 second battle that decides the game. 99% of Protoss would fold to the sort of aggression Maru was putting out on multiple fronts at all point, and at every single stage Dear had just enough to barely hold it off with perfect micro. And there was never "one big showdown" that decided the entire game--once Dear had his desired composition, he had Maru on the defensive, but where were still numerous back and forth engagements and counterattacks, and both players were dropping continuously, including some really impressive storm drops by Dear. If you weren't impressed by that series, than frankly I just don't think you enjoy SC2, and you should probably stop watching it and posting about it.
Well said. Dear vs maru were some of the best, non deathbally pvt we have seen. The match up only gets better over time. If people just thought the games were some turtle fest, they might need to accept that sc2 is not the game for them and move on.
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I don't recall any deathballs in the vast majority of WCS games over the past 3 days.
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On October 29 2013 01:09 Treemonkeys wrote:
I don't recall any deathballs in the vast majority of WCS games over the past 3 days.
Because there really weren't any, except in the fevered imaginations of certain perennial complainers.
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On October 29 2013 01:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 00:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:I don't think those games were anywhere near as good or fun as any above average TvT. Dear vs Maru was a series of very ambitious but sometimes overeager attacks by Maru, with no tech behind, and when Dear stabilized he just moved out with a better army and crushed him.
If anything, that was a perfect example of how more or less every fight before the big showdown becomes almost inconsequential compared to the big 20 second battle that decides the game. 99% of Protoss would fold to the sort of aggression Maru was putting out on multiple fronts at all point, and at every single stage Dear had just enough to barely hold it off with perfect micro. And there was never "one big showdown" that decided the entire game--once Dear had his desired composition, he had Maru on the defensive, but where were still numerous back and forth engagements and counterattacks, and both players were dropping continuously, including some really impressive storm drops by Dear. If you weren't impressed by that series, than frankly I just don't think you enjoy SC2, and you should probably stop watching it and posting about it. Well said. Dear vs maru were some of the best, non deathbally pvt we have seen. The match up only gets better over time. If people just thought the games were some turtle fest, they might need to accept that sc2 is not the game for them and move on.
Or they only enjoy tvt and tzv and zvz? I enjoyed maru vs dear too, but in the end it all came down to the big toss army with lasers completely destroying the terran. Yeah there were sick moves etc, but the big battles itself are as shitty as ever.
On October 29 2013 01:13 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 01:09 Treemonkeys wrote:
I don't recall any deathballs in the vast majority of WCS games over the past 3 days. Because there really weren't any, except in the fevered imaginations of certain perennial complainers.
That is simply not true.
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On October 29 2013 01:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 01:06 Plansix wrote:On October 29 2013 00:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:I don't think those games were anywhere near as good or fun as any above average TvT. Dear vs Maru was a series of very ambitious but sometimes overeager attacks by Maru, with no tech behind, and when Dear stabilized he just moved out with a better army and crushed him.
If anything, that was a perfect example of how more or less every fight before the big showdown becomes almost inconsequential compared to the big 20 second battle that decides the game. 99% of Protoss would fold to the sort of aggression Maru was putting out on multiple fronts at all point, and at every single stage Dear had just enough to barely hold it off with perfect micro. And there was never "one big showdown" that decided the entire game--once Dear had his desired composition, he had Maru on the defensive, but where were still numerous back and forth engagements and counterattacks, and both players were dropping continuously, including some really impressive storm drops by Dear. If you weren't impressed by that series, than frankly I just don't think you enjoy SC2, and you should probably stop watching it and posting about it. Well said. Dear vs maru were some of the best, non deathbally pvt we have seen. The match up only gets better over time. If people just thought the games were some turtle fest, they might need to accept that sc2 is not the game for them and move on. Or they only enjoy tvt and tzv and zvz? I enjoyed maru vs dear too, but in the end it all came down to the big toss army with lasers completely destroying the terran. Yeah there were sick moves etc, but the big battles itself are as shitty as ever.
So even if a game features tons of sick action all over the map, on multiple fronts at all times, tons of back and forth with the lead changing, amazing micro by both players, and absolutely stellar army control in major engagements (seriously, the way Dear was controlling his army was a masterclass in positioning and perfect spell placement, and Maru's dodging and spreading in response was insane), its still "shitty" because...Protoss attack animations involve lasers, and the Terran lost? Its not like there was ever any one big battle where the game was instantly over either, even once Dear got the army comp he wanted and put Maru on the defensive, there was still a shitload of counterattacking and multi-pronged engagements.
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Or they only enjoy tvt and tzv and zvz?
PvP is so much better than ZvZ at this point its not even funny.
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On October 29 2013 01:03 tenklavir wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 00:56 Squat wrote:On October 29 2013 00:48 RampancyTW wrote:On October 29 2013 00:40 Squat wrote:On October 29 2013 00:16 awesomoecalypse wrote:Eh, agree to disagree then, I find any protoss matchup about as fun as shaving my balls with a cheese grater. It's better, but nearly good enough.
Yeah, I don't understand or agree with that at all. These most recent WCS finals were fucking fantastic and had tons of great games, and it was the most Protoss-heavy major tournament of the year. Nearly every match involved a Protoss, and it produced tons and tons of amazing games. Dear especially was just showcasing incredible play in every single game, and his series with Maru was jaw-droppingly good...and, more relevant to the thread at hand, almost none of the games featured "deathball" play in any meaningful sense. I don't think those games were anywhere near as good or fun as any above average TvT. Dear vs Maru was a series of very ambitious but sometimes overeager attacks by Maru, with no tech behind, and when Dear stabilized he just moved out with a better army and crushed him. If anything, that was a perfect example of how more or less every fight before the big showdown becomes almost inconsequential compared to the big 20 second battle that decides the game. You really don't get it. The "big showdown" is essentially a coup de grace. It's one player knowing that he's good enough to capitalize on his advantages and end the game. It's all of the little attacks and engagements before the big showdown that led to the win. You're saying that the little things don't matter because the big thing ended it. But the reality is that the little things are EXACTLY what matters because the big thing wouldn't have ended it without them. I get it just fine, I just don't agree with you. I've seen the exact same result after watching one player get mauled for 20 minutes, only to get one good engagement and crush his opponent's army and promptly win. As I said, I'm not denying it's gotten a lot better, I just don't think it's anywhere near good enough yet. PvT is not nearly as bad as PvZ though, there's that. I'm guessing you didn't watch WCS KR Finals. That was some of the best PvZ I've seen, and as a Terran I sometimes skip PvZ. Not anymore.
I watched the first three games, they were ok, good timings and excellent reads from Dear, but again it was nothing I'd consider good enough. Some of the best PvZ I've seen is like saying Steven Seagal's best movie, not really saying much.
I understand this game fine, I watch(or well watched) it quite a bit, and played it for quite a while too. I'm just not overly impressed by what I saw at Toronto. I expect more, I expect better.
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It is totally true. The same people come in and make the same rehashed arguments that have been thrown around for like 3 years, even if they no longer apply. If I see "Protoss design" used as a argument one more time, I might vomit in my mouth. It's the same bs over and over that is moving farther and farther way from reality of what SC2 really is.
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On October 29 2013 01:23 Plansix wrote:
It is totally true. The same people come in and make the same rehashed arguments that have been thrown around for like 3 years, even if they no longer apply. If I see "Protoss design" used as a argument one more time, I might vomit in my mouth. It's the same bs over and over that is moving farther and farther way from reality of what SC2 really is.
It helps to remember that they're simply the vocal minority. Look in any LR thread or watch the crowds at major events, and its obvious the vast majority of fans can look at series like Dear vs Maru and appreciate how amazing it is.
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On October 29 2013 01:19 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 01:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 29 2013 01:06 Plansix wrote:On October 29 2013 00:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:I don't think those games were anywhere near as good or fun as any above average TvT. Dear vs Maru was a series of very ambitious but sometimes overeager attacks by Maru, with no tech behind, and when Dear stabilized he just moved out with a better army and crushed him.
If anything, that was a perfect example of how more or less every fight before the big showdown becomes almost inconsequential compared to the big 20 second battle that decides the game. 99% of Protoss would fold to the sort of aggression Maru was putting out on multiple fronts at all point, and at every single stage Dear had just enough to barely hold it off with perfect micro. And there was never "one big showdown" that decided the entire game--once Dear had his desired composition, he had Maru on the defensive, but where were still numerous back and forth engagements and counterattacks, and both players were dropping continuously, including some really impressive storm drops by Dear. If you weren't impressed by that series, than frankly I just don't think you enjoy SC2, and you should probably stop watching it and posting about it. Well said. Dear vs maru were some of the best, non deathbally pvt we have seen. The match up only gets better over time. If people just thought the games were some turtle fest, they might need to accept that sc2 is not the game for them and move on. Or they only enjoy tvt and tzv and zvz? I enjoyed maru vs dear too, but in the end it all came down to the big toss army with lasers completely destroying the terran. Yeah there were sick moves etc, but the big battles itself are as shitty as ever. So even if a game features tons of sick action all over the map, on multiple fronts at all times, tons of back and forth with the lead changing, amazing micro by both players, and absolutely stellar army control in major engagements (seriously, the way Dear was controlling his army was a masterclass in positioning and perfect spell placement, and Maru's dodging and spreading in response was insane), its still "shitty" because...Protoss attack animations involve lasers, and the Terran lost? Its not like there was ever any one big battle where the game was instantly over either, even once Dear got the army comp he wanted and put Maru on the defensive, there was still a shitload of counterattacking and multi-pronged engagements.
And awesome storm drops. Protoss need to do more storm drops because they are so awesome and tense. Dear is a tiny thunder god for pulling some of those off.
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On October 29 2013 01:19 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 01:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 29 2013 01:06 Plansix wrote:On October 29 2013 00:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:I don't think those games were anywhere near as good or fun as any above average TvT. Dear vs Maru was a series of very ambitious but sometimes overeager attacks by Maru, with no tech behind, and when Dear stabilized he just moved out with a better army and crushed him.
If anything, that was a perfect example of how more or less every fight before the big showdown becomes almost inconsequential compared to the big 20 second battle that decides the game. 99% of Protoss would fold to the sort of aggression Maru was putting out on multiple fronts at all point, and at every single stage Dear had just enough to barely hold it off with perfect micro. And there was never "one big showdown" that decided the entire game--once Dear had his desired composition, he had Maru on the defensive, but where were still numerous back and forth engagements and counterattacks, and both players were dropping continuously, including some really impressive storm drops by Dear. If you weren't impressed by that series, than frankly I just don't think you enjoy SC2, and you should probably stop watching it and posting about it. Well said. Dear vs maru were some of the best, non deathbally pvt we have seen. The match up only gets better over time. If people just thought the games were some turtle fest, they might need to accept that sc2 is not the game for them and move on. Or they only enjoy tvt and tzv and zvz? I enjoyed maru vs dear too, but in the end it all came down to the big toss army with lasers completely destroying the terran. Yeah there were sick moves etc, but the big battles itself are as shitty as ever. So even if a game features tons of sick action all over the map, on multiple fronts at all times, tons of back and forth with the lead changing, amazing micro by both players, and absolutely stellar army control in major engagements (seriously, the way Dear was controlling his army was a masterclass in positioning and perfect spell placement, and Maru's dodging and spreading in response was insane), its still "shitty" because...Protoss attack animations involve lasers, and the Terran lost? Its not like there was ever any one big battle where the game was instantly over either, even once Dear got the army comp he wanted and put Maru on the defensive, there was still a shitload of counterattacking and multi-pronged engagements.
I'm glad people like you still have the stamina to argue with these people. SC2 could give people blowjobs while they play and there would still be criticism.
BW also had death balls. Try playing against against a toss when their army is full of reavers, storm and archons. The thing with SC2 is that everyone blames the game and not the players or the meta game. Oh a Protoss won, must be because of Protoss OP. Where were these people when Protoss was going 2 base carrier turtle on Katrina/Andromeda every single game?
I think what needs to change is people's mindset, everyone is so negative when we have tons of Starcraft to watch. But, back when we had to proxy to Korea and watch OSL on Daum player at 4am we were glad with what we got.
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On October 29 2013 01:26 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 01:23 Plansix wrote:
It is totally true. The same people come in and make the same rehashed arguments that have been thrown around for like 3 years, even if they no longer apply. If I see "Protoss design" used as a argument one more time, I might vomit in my mouth. It's the same bs over and over that is moving farther and farther way from reality of what SC2 really is. It helps to remember that they're simply the vocal minority. Look in any LR thread or watch the crowds at major events, and its obvious the vast majority of fans can look at series like Dear vs Maru and appreciate how amazing it is.
It still important to voice that fact and make sure people are aware of it. Otherwise people get the impression from TL that everyone dislikes SC2 or thinks its a "flawed game" which is simply not the case. Everything can be made better, but that doesn't mean that the game is flawed .
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On October 29 2013 01:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 01:19 awesomoecalypse wrote:On October 29 2013 01:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 29 2013 01:06 Plansix wrote:On October 29 2013 00:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:I don't think those games were anywhere near as good or fun as any above average TvT. Dear vs Maru was a series of very ambitious but sometimes overeager attacks by Maru, with no tech behind, and when Dear stabilized he just moved out with a better army and crushed him.
If anything, that was a perfect example of how more or less every fight before the big showdown becomes almost inconsequential compared to the big 20 second battle that decides the game. 99% of Protoss would fold to the sort of aggression Maru was putting out on multiple fronts at all point, and at every single stage Dear had just enough to barely hold it off with perfect micro. And there was never "one big showdown" that decided the entire game--once Dear had his desired composition, he had Maru on the defensive, but where were still numerous back and forth engagements and counterattacks, and both players were dropping continuously, including some really impressive storm drops by Dear. If you weren't impressed by that series, than frankly I just don't think you enjoy SC2, and you should probably stop watching it and posting about it. Well said. Dear vs maru were some of the best, non deathbally pvt we have seen. The match up only gets better over time. If people just thought the games were some turtle fest, they might need to accept that sc2 is not the game for them and move on. Or they only enjoy tvt and tzv and zvz? I enjoyed maru vs dear too, but in the end it all came down to the big toss army with lasers completely destroying the terran. Yeah there were sick moves etc, but the big battles itself are as shitty as ever. So even if a game features tons of sick action all over the map, on multiple fronts at all times, tons of back and forth with the lead changing, amazing micro by both players, and absolutely stellar army control in major engagements (seriously, the way Dear was controlling his army was a masterclass in positioning and perfect spell placement, and Maru's dodging and spreading in response was insane), its still "shitty" because...Protoss attack animations involve lasers, and the Terran lost? Its not like there was ever any one big battle where the game was instantly over either, even once Dear got the army comp he wanted and put Maru on the defensive, there was still a shitload of counterattacking and multi-pronged engagements. And awesome storm drops. Protoss need to do more storm drops because they are so awesome and tense. Dear is a tiny thunder god for pulling some of those off.
Yeah without those Storm drops Maru would have taken an insurmountable lead. Several times, Maru would sneak past Dear's defenses and get tons of worker kills and I would think Dear was done...and then the Observer would click to the other side of the map and Dear would be wiping out Maru's workers with a storm drop in response.
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On October 28 2013 20:34 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 20:28 Grumbels wrote:On October 28 2013 17:47 Cheren wrote:On October 28 2013 15:53 Pandain wrote:
I don't think deathball is playing as big of a role as you think it is lately. Same, there were very few deathball games at WCS. I don't even know how it is considered acceptable that after over three years of development of the game, which is incomparable to the same time period in Brood War's history because of improved knowledge, dedication, organization, that we are finally seeing less death ball play in some match-ups only at the very top level. This from the same community that wants a foreigner only WCS NA/EU, shouldn't we want the potential for interesting games on all levels of play? "Bad" players want to sit back, build a large army, and then attack with it. That happens in every RTS, even Broodwar. You cannot force interesting games on all levels of play.
You can't force interesting games on all levels of play. Apparently it's okay if it's only fun at 0.001% of levels of play. You realize you have judged that virtually all players that play this game don't deserve to have fun? How appallingly elitist. This is why e-sports can be dumb, you have people that only watch and don't play that find it perfectly acceptable that the game isn't balanced for lower levels, is too difficult for lower levels, is not fun for lower levels and it doesn't matter to them since they only care if watching Soulkey vs Innovation is enjoyable.
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On October 29 2013 01:19 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 01:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 29 2013 01:06 Plansix wrote:On October 29 2013 00:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:I don't think those games were anywhere near as good or fun as any above average TvT. Dear vs Maru was a series of very ambitious but sometimes overeager attacks by Maru, with no tech behind, and when Dear stabilized he just moved out with a better army and crushed him.
If anything, that was a perfect example of how more or less every fight before the big showdown becomes almost inconsequential compared to the big 20 second battle that decides the game. 99% of Protoss would fold to the sort of aggression Maru was putting out on multiple fronts at all point, and at every single stage Dear had just enough to barely hold it off with perfect micro. And there was never "one big showdown" that decided the entire game--once Dear had his desired composition, he had Maru on the defensive, but where were still numerous back and forth engagements and counterattacks, and both players were dropping continuously, including some really impressive storm drops by Dear. If you weren't impressed by that series, than frankly I just don't think you enjoy SC2, and you should probably stop watching it and posting about it. Well said. Dear vs maru were some of the best, non deathbally pvt we have seen. The match up only gets better over time. If people just thought the games were some turtle fest, they might need to accept that sc2 is not the game for them and move on. Or they only enjoy tvt and tzv and zvz? I enjoyed maru vs dear too, but in the end it all came down to the big toss army with lasers completely destroying the terran. Yeah there were sick moves etc, but the big battles itself are as shitty as ever. So even if a game features tons of sick action all over the map, on multiple fronts at all times, tons of back and forth with the lead changing, amazing micro by both players, and absolutely stellar army control in major engagements (seriously, the way Dear was controlling his army was a masterclass in positioning and perfect spell placement, and Maru's dodging and spreading in response was insane), its still "shitty" because...Protoss attack animations involve lasers, and the Terran lost? Its not like there was ever any one big battle where the game was instantly over either, even once Dear got the army comp he wanted and put Maru on the defensive, there was still a shitload of counterattacking and multi-pronged engagements.
Ah cmon now, i give you dear vs maru, but thats probably the best pvt in a very long time. And no its not about the lasers, its about the shitty interaction between two big "deathballs" in the matchups. There is no real interesting interaction between a big bio ball and a toss deathball. Yeah storms are kinda "interesting" (split of marines etc), but the rest is pretty straight forward, if you dont have enough vikings you simply lose.
On October 29 2013 01:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:PvP is so much better than ZvZ at this point its not even funny.
Yeah cause all what you say is the truth right. i agree that pvp is enjoyable but thats mostly cause there is much variety.
In zvz the excitement comes from ling bling wars and endless counterattacks with lings/ burrowed roaches etc.
On October 29 2013 01:23 Plansix wrote:
It is totally true. The same people come in and make the same rehashed arguments that have been thrown around for like 3 years, even if they no longer apply. If I see "Protoss design" used as a argument one more time, I might vomit in my mouth. It's the same bs over and over that is moving farther and farther way from reality of what SC2 really is.
No it is not. The same statement is still true: If the toss has enough lasers and storm he simply shits on you cause that tossball is totally retarded in dps. I mean lets be honest here.
Quote from the finals recap:
Sending zealots and warp-prisms to harass Soulkey and keep him occupied, he built up a powerful deathball of stalkers, colossi, templar, and void rays.
One brilliant engagement was all Dear needed to conclusively swing the game, goading Soulkey's swarm host-hydra-corruptor-infestor army into a head on fight. With perfect use of spells, Dear melted Soulkey's late game army into a bloody puddle, forcing yet another GG.
You wanna say thats no deathball? It is inteersting to see that fight? Cmon you cant be serious.
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On October 28 2013 16:44 Sub40APM wrote:
didnt someone link the point about the nature of ranged combat as the problem. when 10 ranged units meet 8 ranged units it doesnt end with 10-8 but instead its something like 10-2 or something that causes the more numerous long ranged guys to survive more or less in tact while annihilating the other group completely.
That's just how it works with any group of units fighting eachother (same with melee units). There is loss of attack power thus the one who has fewer units will lose them quicker and because of that lose them even quicker, thus losing exponentially more units than the other player. That's the core of deathballs, and it is unfixable in any game where units can die.
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On October 29 2013 01:34 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 20:34 S1eth wrote:On October 28 2013 20:28 Grumbels wrote:On October 28 2013 17:47 Cheren wrote:On October 28 2013 15:53 Pandain wrote:
I don't think deathball is playing as big of a role as you think it is lately. Same, there were very few deathball games at WCS. I don't even know how it is considered acceptable that after over three years of development of the game, which is incomparable to the same time period in Brood War's history because of improved knowledge, dedication, organization, that we are finally seeing less death ball play in some match-ups only at the very top level. This from the same community that wants a foreigner only WCS NA/EU, shouldn't we want the potential for interesting games on all levels of play? "Bad" players want to sit back, build a large army, and then attack with it. That happens in every RTS, even Broodwar. You cannot force interesting games on all levels of play. You can't force interesting games on all levels of play. Apparently it's okay if it's only fun at 0.001% of levels of play. You realize you have judged that virtually all players that play this game don't deserve to have fun? How appallingly elitist. This is why e-sports can be dumb, you have people that only watch and don't play that find it perfectly acceptable that the game isn't balanced for lower levels, is too difficult for lower levels, is not fun for lower levels and it doesn't matter to them since they only care if watching Soulkey vs Innovation is enjoyable.
BW was the same way. Protoss was openly acknowledged as simply better at low levels, and Terran was insanely hard to win with if you were bad. Did people bitch and moan? No, because they understood that the game shouldn't be designed around bad players, it should be balanced at the highest possible level.
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On October 29 2013 01:36 Jerom wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 16:44 Sub40APM wrote:
didnt someone link the point about the nature of ranged combat as the problem. when 10 ranged units meet 8 ranged units it doesnt end with 10-8 but instead its something like 10-2 or something that causes the more numerous long ranged guys to survive more or less in tact while annihilating the other group completely. That's just how it works with any group of units fighting eachother (same with melee units). There is loss of attack power thus the one who has fewer units will lose them quicker and because of that lose them even quicker, thus losing exponentially more units than the other player. That's the core of deathballs, and it is unfixable in any game where units can die.
It's much less pronounced with melee units because of limited surface area, it's much easier to use terrain to stymie melee assaults than ranged attacks. At some point, adding in more melee units is not worth it as they'll never actually get to fight.
It's one the reasons why mass colossi is so dumb, it's exponentially stronger the more you add, as there is no real cap on how many can be in use at once.
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On October 29 2013 01:34 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 20:34 S1eth wrote:On October 28 2013 20:28 Grumbels wrote:On October 28 2013 17:47 Cheren wrote:On October 28 2013 15:53 Pandain wrote:
I don't think deathball is playing as big of a role as you think it is lately. Same, there were very few deathball games at WCS. I don't even know how it is considered acceptable that after over three years of development of the game, which is incomparable to the same time period in Brood War's history because of improved knowledge, dedication, organization, that we are finally seeing less death ball play in some match-ups only at the very top level. This from the same community that wants a foreigner only WCS NA/EU, shouldn't we want the potential for interesting games on all levels of play? "Bad" players want to sit back, build a large army, and then attack with it. That happens in every RTS, even Broodwar. You cannot force interesting games on all levels of play. You can't force interesting games on all levels of play. Apparently it's okay if it's only fun at 0.001% of levels of play. You realize you have judged that virtually all players that play this game don't deserve to have fun? How appallingly elitist. This is why e-sports can be dumb, you have people that only watch and don't play that find it perfectly acceptable that the game isn't balanced for lower levels, is too difficult for lower levels, is not fun for lower levels and it doesn't matter to them since they only care if watching Soulkey vs Innovation is enjoyable.
No one is forcing you to play that way. I play games with heavy harassment and multiprong attacks. I am fucking terrible and I lose sometimes because I am bad and it is hard, but who cares? Sure building. 200/200 army is easier, but who cares? There are plenty of heroes in dota that are easier that Visage, but I still play him.
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EPT
