EPT6 possible balance changes - David Kim - Page 34
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HyDrA_solic
Portugal491 Posts
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InfamousOne
United States110 Posts
Terran has even worse time vs toss now, and they were already UP vs toss TvZ has been 50% winrate since overseer buff, widow mine nerf is ABSURD... the tank buff doesnt do anything, nor does dual mech upgrades bio will be impossible vs zerg now, and mech will still be impossible tvp is even worse now | ||
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S1eth
Austria221 Posts
On September 24 2013 10:45 saltis wrote: "Marine/Tank will be better than before due to the rapid fire" DUDE , thats ONLY + 9% speed. In other words, every 11th shot mathematically would be "extra-buffed" shot. It's an 11.11....% speed increase, not 9%. | ||
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FoShao
United States256 Posts
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lamprey1
Canada919 Posts
On September 24 2013 10:54 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote: david kim must be drinking these days. why the fuck is he buffing DTs? as if they werent strong enough.. sometimes this guy is a fuckin nut! wrong. david kim is an excellent game designer. the guy is experimenting. give him the latitude to do so. the HotS expansion was a nice improvement over WoL and i think David Kim and the Blizzard team will come up with a cool balance patch in preparation for WCS 2014. | ||
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Blargh1111
8 Posts
Shared Mech upgrades: our vikings are now +1 attack as 3-3 protoss deathball amoves into us, Hurray! On a serious note though, this IS a step in the right direction, but not drastic enough. You are already forced into making a starport to defend any air play early game, meaning you choose between having enough units to take your 3rd, or having enough gas to drop armories and upgrades. Armories need a cost reduction, 150/50 like in broodwar would help mech SO much. I can't tell you how many TvPs ive played where im at 2-1 upgrades with a few tanks and factories barely finishing at the 10 minute mark, this doesn't let mech be aggressive, and it can't defend a 3rd while getting sufficient upgrades, so we are still in a pickle of either getting a maxed army with no upgrades, or a tiny army with even upgrades. Widow Mine Nerf: Finally got around to it didn't you blizzard? I'd say its a bit much, and might cause some issues in TvZ, but it's a very good start. Despite my terran bias i think this was a good nerf, but i hope it doesn't make TvZ too stagnant like the end of wings. Would be cool to see a weaker widow mine vs zerg but possibly the reintegration of being able to hit cloaked units? That would allow you to actually open mech in TvP again, which would be a great start to our road to viability ^^ Tank Buff: FUCKING FINALLY A REAL mech buff, this is what i like to see. I think considering the mine nerf they could have been a little more extreme on this, but its still nice to see mech being buffed. This doesn't really change much though, Tanks still 3 shot zealots, which is a major issue in lategame TvP. This does however, does make Mech TvZ alot stronger, and defending protoss ground based allins would be alot easier. I think this is the step in the right direction, however it doesn't do much on its own. Further support to mech would be needed to make this buff remotely helpful, the only thing i see it doing immediately is making TvT alot more interesting. Oracle Buff: I would like to take a little quote from Day[9] here, *ahem* what what the the fuck fuck?!? seriously? I won't even go into how I don't think toss should be getting buffs right now, but this isn't really doing much for protoss. This gives them a STRONGER allin, but doesn't give them use during mid-lategame. No Protoss player will devote 150/100 to a unit that could be extremely hit or miss when they can devote 200 minerals to have a guaranteed proxy pylon anywhere on the map. If you want oracles to be a hurrass unit, the unit needs alot of changing. Oracles cost too much to be a constant hurrass unit, but the cheaper you make them the better proxy oracle becomes. So what should be done about this? LOWER THE DPS you could make an oracle that is extremely cheap, but offers a much lower DPS, killing an entire mineral line in seconds isnt a hurrass unit, its a unit that you hope your opponent doesn't scout so you can just win the game. Making them similar to the SC1 Wraith would make more sense, the wraith took a while to kill SCVs, but was still useful later in the game TvT for spotting and attacking seige lines, in the case of the oracle for revelation instead. DT Buff: not too much to say about this, still going to be a cheesy strategy to be frank. The reactions for each race are simple, Zerg makes a spine and spore at each base, Terran makes a turret and leaves a few Marine/Marauder, Toss just makes an observer and warps in if he sees a DT. Being able to poke in and out faster doesn't change much, The DT is meant to be a hurrass unit that can be used very well with the warp prism, don't turn it into something it's not meant to be. Tunneling Claws Buff: My limited knowledge of matchups of TvX might be whats ruining this, but isn't ZvZ roach vs roach in the first place? We haven't seen a non roach-hydra play since spore crawler buffs. I'm quite confused at this, Zerg players complain alot about roach hydra vs roach hydra and how its the same every game, so why do you buff an upgrade like Tunneling claws when all it does is make roach vs roach more and more prevalent. TL:DR 1. Good 2. Good 3. Good 4. Wat 5. Wat 6. Really Blizzard.... | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 24 2013 10:58 Antylamon wrote: Am I the only one who appreciates the Oracle buff? I've tried to make a build using Oracles to shut down mass speedling, but I couldn't pull it off without making it allin due to the huge gas consumption. Sure it can increase the viability of Oracle openings, but it does nothing to address the fact that Oracle's suck beyond gimmicky play. Blizzard thinks that to create harass oriented play you need to create units specifically for that purpose. This just isn't the case, and make for units that serve one purpose then are forgotten about (Oracle is a great example, DTs in SC2 somewhat fall into this category as well). Marine/Marauder drops is a good example of the correct type of harass. Mutalisks are another example of good harass. What Oracles need to some kind of utility spell going into the mid-late game that makes them viable long term. The cloaking field ability that was touted about in HotS alpha would be a great addition to the Oracle -- make it an expensive upgrade at the fleet beacon (or dark shrine if you want to give that building some utility) and suddenly Oracle's will become a core part of the Protoss lategame army (and that will naturally lead to more harass with them). | ||
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Sc2Corpse
United States210 Posts
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AxiomBlurr
786 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
On September 24 2013 10:30 xyzz wrote: The games rely on the players for testing, not for developing. I can assure you the gamers didn't design Starcraft II. There's a difference you seem unable to grasp, and I suppose this is also why many players (even the 'good, rational players' you talk about) feel the companies that make these games aren't listening or don't somehow understand the issues that seem to annoy a tiny but vocal minority of the customers. The gamers provide data by testing the changes made by people other than gamers by playing the game just like they always have. The developers and staff then analyse the results with their software tools (that the community largely has no knowledge of) and come to conclusions as a design team. Even if a dialogue exists on a forum somewhere (beta-test forums for example) between some community representative and the actual testers (gamers), it doesn't mean that the written opinions of amateurs amounts to anything more than one more piece of somewhat unreliable data in the mosaic. Naturally the designers are human as well and will always make mistakes either due to time constraints, financial motivations, incorrectly analysed data, lack of imagination, company political reasons and what not, but it doesn't mean that anyone else could've necessarily done a better job. Your comments on whether the Oracle and the DT still fulfills the exact same role as before is moot, since noone in the design team made the claim that they were trying to change the role of these units. To me, as an amateur, it seems like Kim's team is just looking for a few tiny toggles they could turn up a notch and see if it improves Protoss play enough to provide somewhat better results. Whether the race requires a massive overhaul or not is up for debate (noone can even agree on the criteria of success or failure in this type of design, whether its sales or e-sports popularity or whatever), so a discussion about the way such a massive overhaul should be approached in is premature. Uh, I never made this claim. I made the claim that you went ahead and restated in the first sentence of your second paragraph. A claim that I think many would accept without much hesitation. And again, you misconstrued what I wrote by stating that 'no one in the design team made the claims they were trying to change the role of these units' which is exactly my point. I see absolutely no reason in buffing these units if they're already doing the things they're supposed to be doing and the proposed changes do NOT give them more utility. The idea is not to put yourself, or myself for that matter, on a higher degree of understanding as to why they're making the changes they are making; but rather, to see if the changes they are making are reasonable and can be applied beyond a one dimensional approach to playing the game within the bounds of sensibility. This is what I was referencing with the other changes. I for one am under the premonition after 3 years of playing that there is some integral piece with the way the Protoss is designed that limits the flexibility of the gameplay. You often either see 1 of 2 ways to play the race. Either eehan timing or sit in ur base and macro and defend. To me, there is very very few cases in which the middle ground can be approached and have it pay off. Now, you can say that this is opinionated due to the fact that Protoss is still able to win by means of the 2 aforementioned ways of playing the race. I cannot really disagree with you on that. I simply think it's a really stupid way to be forced into playing; and statistically speaking, one that has skewed championships in the other race's favor heavily. | ||
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Snijjer
United States989 Posts
The tank one and the roach ones being the best additions, widow mines buff would be the most obvious 'subtraction.' | ||
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InfamousOne
United States110 Posts
and poor terran, if you arent one of the top 5 korean terrans in teh world, you have no chance of being a good foreign terran player seriously, most under represented race above silver... GM is a joke with how many toss and how few terran tehre is no such thing as a good foreign terran right now | ||
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AxiomBlurr
786 Posts
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Siege tank buff is very good, not sure if this is the right way to do it but it looks fine. Guess it's one of the better ways to buff the tank as it mostly affects TvP this way. Hopefully doesn't make TvT into a mech exclusive affair. Oracle buff looks good. The unit is just slightly too bad now. I rather see something else like revelation being replaced with a more useful cool ability, for example something that disables static defense. That would put dt's and oracles back (together) into lategame more and would make oracle harass a real thing throughout the game. A lone or two oracle would still be nullified by AA because it would lose it's energy disabling the turret/spore but multiple oracles would be a cool option. DT buff is cool but maybe better as a small upgrade. This might make DT openings a little too good as it would be quite easy to run from detection and dt's would be as fast as oracles. Widow mine nerf is overdoing it I think, especially with siege tank buff at the same time it's just swopping out the widow mine for the tank again, I do think tank is cooler than widow mine but this probably won't achieve the goal of a mix of both. I rather see a smaller nerf or some subtle buffs for zerg against them (making hive tech easier or letting blinding cloud affect widow mine range for example). Possibly have the drilling claws removed or replaced. Roach speed upgrade affecting tunneling claws is fantastic, it should have been buffed a long time ago already. If it can remove those silly mass sentry 12 minute timings from the game would be even better. Eventually this change would hopefully nerf the effectiveness of massed sentries and PvZ could be rebalanced slightly so it doesn't revolve around FF so much. That in turn would open up strategies and map design a ton, funkier open maps would be possible without immediately being broken in ZvP because ff doesn't work on it. Mech/Air upgrades combined finally is just a terrible idea. I applaude mech buffs and this would probably work but it creates AirMech as 1 combined style and not real mech. I'm not a fan of that idea, just buff thors as AA unit rather. With tank buff and thor AA buff mech would probably get there too. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7291 Posts
You know what I'd like to see? Some Stalker changes. Now THAT is a harassment unit. Blink Stalkers are one of the best units in the game as far as my beliefs are involved. Not BUFFS, but rebalancing so they're not just meaty low-DPS... spider leg robot... things. Like a slight rebalancing of -10 HP and a buff to their firing animation or damage or damage scaling or something. Terran changes looking solid. Window Mines were dumb. Tanks are a Terran unit I can seriously get behind. I say this as someone with a distaste for the Terran race. | ||
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eeChiama
Argentina96 Posts
On September 24 2013 11:29 TheRabidDeer wrote: Before you could kill like 25 banelings in 1 (perfect) hit God FORBID that Zergs split their banes, really SO much micro... | ||
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Kritos222
Sweden21 Posts
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InfamousOne
United States110 Posts
On September 24 2013 11:49 eeChiama wrote: God FORBID that Zergs split their banes, really SO much micro... this... zerg shouldnt have to do that though... they are allowed to a move in... terran has to be the ones to do all the splitting with our a move race! | ||
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