|
On October 16 2013 11:48 ETisME wrote:
I don't know, I feel like warp gate is actually at quite a good position now, being able to instantly choose what kind of unit to warp in is quite important
Warp Gate is a NECESSITY due to the inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves. You NEED it to be competitive because the more expensive Protoss units are NOT able to fight on "equal footing" with an army of equal supply of the other two races ... without relying on either Force Field or Blink.
This necessity is due to the automatically maximized unit density AND the large numbers of units involved in battles.
At the core such a necessity is bad game design ... even worse than the UI limitations of BW which were the same for all races.
|
Warpgate is cool and helps diversify the races.
|
On October 16 2013 09:59 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 09:56 aZealot wrote:
It took a while, but we finally got there: Warpgate.
*Golf Clap* Made extra funny because a 2nd Arbiter can just recall the next production round or two of units in if it seems advantageous. Or recall the first units out it gets too ugly.
Did you even play Brood War? This would never happen. It would never be advantageous anyways, because Siege Tanks and Vultures would arrive at the Recall location and make any combination of Protoss units cost ineffective.
On October 15 2013 20:18 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 19:43 Rabiator wrote:
If you ever get a Protoss warping in lots of units in your own base you will know what is meant with "too much volatility". As a professional you can deal with it, but casuals wont be. If you call that volatility, then BW is about as volatile. Ever experienced arbiter's recall in your own base :D?
Arbiter is a highly gas and production time expensive unit. It is also the only tech unit in either game that requires two different Tier 2 tech routes/separate Tier 3 structures. Additionally, it requires you to research both of it's abilities.
Warp Prism is available quickly from the Robotics Facility at Tier 2, only costs minerals, has a relatively quick build time that can be decreased by Chrono Boost, and comes with Phasing Mode already researched.
By the time you have Arbiter tech, there is plenty of time to surround your three bases in Missile Turrets, plant defensive in-base Spider Mines, have Science Vessels to EMP Arbiters, and have enough of an army to go clean up the vulnerable Protoss units with ease.
|
On October 16 2013 19:34 Rabiator wrote:
Warp Gate is a NECESSITY due to the inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves.[...]
The inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves is a NECESSITY due to Warp Gates.
Wich came first, the chicken or the egg? I think in this case Blizzard first wanted to add those cool Warp Gates and later had to weaken the Protoss units.
Also, Protoss kind of has to lose equal supply fights because they have instant reinforcements.
|
You can't have both, instant reinforcements and strong cost efficient units.
It depends on what is more fun to play.
|
On October 16 2013 20:03 zimms wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 19:34 Rabiator wrote:
Warp Gate is a NECESSITY due to the inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves.[...] The inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves is a NECESSITY due to Warp Gates. Wich came first, the chicken or the egg? I think in this case Blizzard first wanted to add those cool Warp Gates and later had to weaken the Protoss units.
The chicken. And in this case, the inefficiency of the gateway units. Zealots and Stalkers have essentially the same stats as Zealots and Dragoons in BW. They are kind of a 1to1 port.
I htink Warpgate is actually a great idea for Protoss, because Protoss units are so immobile by design and warpgate is actually a good way to give protoss some harass tool, without completely having to replace Zealot/Dragoon/Templar/Archon with faster/more fragile units. Though the ones that Protoss has are still too beefy/low dps imo, which causes this whole deathball turtle in many games.
|
19533 Posts
On October 16 2013 20:12 gTank wrote:
You can't have both, instant reinforcements and strong cost efficient units.
It depends on what is more fun to play.
I really wouldnt say that chargelots for example are that bad. I think its quite a myth that warpgate units are bad per se.
They are bad compared to marineballs, but EVERYTHING is bad compared to that.
|
Russian Federation262 Posts
I feel pretty good with Warpgate, Mules, Qeens mechanics.
|
On October 16 2013 20:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 20:03 zimms wrote:On October 16 2013 19:34 Rabiator wrote:
Warp Gate is a NECESSITY due to the inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves.[...] The inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves is a NECESSITY due to Warp Gates. Wich came first, the chicken or the egg? I think in this case Blizzard first wanted to add those cool Warp Gates and later had to weaken the Protoss units. The chicken. And in this case, the inefficiency of the gateway units. Zealots and Stalkers have essentially the same stats as Zealots and Dragoons in BW. They are kind of a 1to1 port. I htink Warpgate is actually a great idea for Protoss, because Protoss units are so immobile by design and warpgate is actually a good way to give protoss some harass tool, without completely having to replace Zealot/Dragoon/Templar/Archon with faster/more fragile units. Though the ones that Protoss has are still too beefy/low dps imo, which causes this whole deathball turtle in many games.
By the way, on the topic of warpgate: I find it so odd that Blizzard would never consider changing the mechanic. We usually start the discussion of this topic by mentioning that the developers will never try to reinvent warpgate, so talking about it is purely academic. However, what is stopping them from doing a redesign in Legacy of the Void? I know they won't, but I don't understand their mentality. Are there really people that are angry there will be significant changes? As opposed to the already significant changes due to new units and such anyway?
|
On October 16 2013 20:31 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 20:19 Big J wrote:On October 16 2013 20:03 zimms wrote:On October 16 2013 19:34 Rabiator wrote:
Warp Gate is a NECESSITY due to the inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves.[...] The inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves is a NECESSITY due to Warp Gates. Wich came first, the chicken or the egg? I think in this case Blizzard first wanted to add those cool Warp Gates and later had to weaken the Protoss units. The chicken. And in this case, the inefficiency of the gateway units. Zealots and Stalkers have essentially the same stats as Zealots and Dragoons in BW. They are kind of a 1to1 port. I htink Warpgate is actually a great idea for Protoss, because Protoss units are so immobile by design and warpgate is actually a good way to give protoss some harass tool, without completely having to replace Zealot/Dragoon/Templar/Archon with faster/more fragile units. Though the ones that Protoss has are still too beefy/low dps imo, which causes this whole deathball turtle in many games. https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/296100559423954944
Well, if it's about a nonchicken egg, I guess Fish, Amphibia, Reptiles and Insects all would love to have a word with that bird. 
|
19533 Posts
On October 16 2013 20:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 20:31 Grumbels wrote:On October 16 2013 20:19 Big J wrote:On October 16 2013 20:03 zimms wrote:On October 16 2013 19:34 Rabiator wrote:
Warp Gate is a NECESSITY due to the inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves.[...] The inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves is a NECESSITY due to Warp Gates. Wich came first, the chicken or the egg? I think in this case Blizzard first wanted to add those cool Warp Gates and later had to weaken the Protoss units. The chicken. And in this case, the inefficiency of the gateway units. Zealots and Stalkers have essentially the same stats as Zealots and Dragoons in BW. They are kind of a 1to1 port. I htink Warpgate is actually a great idea for Protoss, because Protoss units are so immobile by design and warpgate is actually a good way to give protoss some harass tool, without completely having to replace Zealot/Dragoon/Templar/Archon with faster/more fragile units. Though the ones that Protoss has are still too beefy/low dps imo, which causes this whole deathball turtle in many games. https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/296100559423954944 Well, if it's about a nonchicken egg, I guess Fish, Amphibia, Reptiles and Insects all would love to have a word with that bird.
If it's about chicken eggs, the whole question is pointless ^^
|
On October 16 2013 20:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 20:03 zimms wrote:On October 16 2013 19:34 Rabiator wrote:
Warp Gate is a NECESSITY due to the inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves.[...] The inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves is a NECESSITY due to Warp Gates. Wich came first, the chicken or the egg? I think in this case Blizzard first wanted to add those cool Warp Gates and later had to weaken the Protoss units. The chicken. And in this case, the inefficiency of the gateway units. Zealots and Stalkers have essentially the same stats as Zealots and Dragoons in BW. They are kind of a 1to1 port. I htink Warpgate is actually a great idea for Protoss, because Protoss units are so immobile by design and warpgate is actually a good way to give protoss some harass tool, without completely having to replace Zealot/Dragoon/Templar/Archon with faster/more fragile units. Though the ones that Protoss has are still too beefy/low dps imo, which causes this whole deathball turtle in many games.
Can we stop calling warped in units harass tools? Its a gimmick because its a coin flip, 1 to 1 relationship of attack did crucial damage and paid for the warp in or attack got smashed and resources are wasted.
You are literally taking your production buildings and putting them into the enemy's territory, with really no way of retrieving those units once the attack commences.
Harassment revolves around highly positional and mobile tactics and more importantly it has a better chance of retaining its value and being useful throughout the whole game, especially in the hands of a professional (ex: drops can be retained and retreated and used later on, air units, mobile units etc.)
Warping in "harassment armies" is the same damn thing as walking them over there and attacking except it takes less time to reach the attack position once the player decides to attack.
More importantly the warped in units that we typically have to use as protoss are not mirco intensive so these attacks are more strategic decisions rather than micro wars and IMO that makes it completely boring to watch and execute when compared to the latter.
It is a stupid mechanic that Blizzard is so hell bent on keeping (because it was one of their original ideas to mix the game up from broodwar) and there are many other examples of units/mechanics in SC 2 that the development team doesn't want to throw out even if they are bad game designs.
PS: if I ever had the choice between instant reinforcements or just all around stronger units I'd take the stronger units any day of the week. Instant reinforcing can mostly be mimicked by strong game sense and predicting where reinforcements will be needed in the future, i.e. pro players shouldn't really need instant reinforcements.
|
|
|
On October 16 2013 20:45 Twiggs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 20:19 Big J wrote:On October 16 2013 20:03 zimms wrote:On October 16 2013 19:34 Rabiator wrote:
Warp Gate is a NECESSITY due to the inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves.[...] The inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves is a NECESSITY due to Warp Gates. Wich came first, the chicken or the egg? I think in this case Blizzard first wanted to add those cool Warp Gates and later had to weaken the Protoss units. The chicken. And in this case, the inefficiency of the gateway units. Zealots and Stalkers have essentially the same stats as Zealots and Dragoons in BW. They are kind of a 1to1 port. I htink Warpgate is actually a great idea for Protoss, because Protoss units are so immobile by design and warpgate is actually a good way to give protoss some harass tool, without completely having to replace Zealot/Dragoon/Templar/Archon with faster/more fragile units. Though the ones that Protoss has are still too beefy/low dps imo, which causes this whole deathball turtle in many games. Can we stop calling warped in units harass tools? Its a gimmick because its a coin flip, 1 to 1 relationship of attack did crucial damage and paid for the warp in or attack got smashed and resources are wasted. You are literally taking your production buildings and putting them into the enemy's territory, with really no way of retrieving those units once the attack commences. Harassment revolves around highly positional and mobile tactics and more importantly it has a better chance of retaining its value and being useful throughout the whole game, especially in the hands of a professional (ex: drops can be retained and retreated and used later on, air units, mobile units etc.) Warping in "harassment armies" is the same damn thing as walking them over there and attacking except it takes less time to reach the attack position once the player decides to attack. More importantly the warped in units that we typically have to use as protoss are not mirco intensive so these attacks are more strategic decisions rather than micro wars and IMO that makes it completely boring to watch and execute when compared to the latter. It is a stupid mechanic that Blizzard is so hell bent on keeping (because it was one of their original ideas to mix the game up from broodwar) and there are many other examples of units/mechanics in SC 2 that the development team doesn't want to throw out even if they are bad game designs. PS: if I ever had the choice between instant reinforcements or just all around stronger units I'd take the stronger units any day of the week. Instant reinforcing can mostly be mimicked by strong game sense and predicting where reinforcements will be needed in the future, i.e. pro players shouldn't really need instant reinforcements.
Agreed 100% because if the developers aren't allowed to tinker with game mechanics which are sacrosanctyl off-limits, then the programmers are backed into a corner on how to work around the clusterf*ck which is protoss warpgate (which forces the race's units to be nerfed, which nobody wants, so please blizzard take back warpgate once and for all.!!!)
|
On October 16 2013 20:57 cenk_unger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 20:45 Twiggs wrote:On October 16 2013 20:19 Big J wrote:On October 16 2013 20:03 zimms wrote:On October 16 2013 19:34 Rabiator wrote:
Warp Gate is a NECESSITY due to the inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves.[...] The inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves is a NECESSITY due to Warp Gates. Wich came first, the chicken or the egg? I think in this case Blizzard first wanted to add those cool Warp Gates and later had to weaken the Protoss units. The chicken. And in this case, the inefficiency of the gateway units. Zealots and Stalkers have essentially the same stats as Zealots and Dragoons in BW. They are kind of a 1to1 port. I htink Warpgate is actually a great idea for Protoss, because Protoss units are so immobile by design and warpgate is actually a good way to give protoss some harass tool, without completely having to replace Zealot/Dragoon/Templar/Archon with faster/more fragile units. Though the ones that Protoss has are still too beefy/low dps imo, which causes this whole deathball turtle in many games. Can we stop calling warped in units harass tools? Its a gimmick because its a coin flip, 1 to 1 relationship of attack did crucial damage and paid for the warp in or attack got smashed and resources are wasted. You are literally taking your production buildings and putting them into the enemy's territory, with really no way of retrieving those units once the attack commences. Harassment revolves around highly positional and mobile tactics and more importantly it has a better chance of retaining its value and being useful throughout the whole game, especially in the hands of a professional (ex: drops can be retained and retreated and used later on, air units, mobile units etc.) Warping in "harassment armies" is the same damn thing as walking them over there and attacking except it takes less time to reach the attack position once the player decides to attack. More importantly the warped in units that we typically have to use as protoss are not mirco intensive so these attacks are more strategic decisions rather than micro wars and IMO that makes it completely boring to watch and execute when compared to the latter. It is a stupid mechanic that Blizzard is so hell bent on keeping (because it was one of their original ideas to mix the game up from broodwar) and there are many other examples of units/mechanics in SC 2 that the development team doesn't want to throw out even if they are bad game designs. PS: if I ever had the choice between instant reinforcements or just all around stronger units I'd take the stronger units any day of the week. Instant reinforcing can mostly be mimicked by strong game sense and predicting where reinforcements will be needed in the future, i.e. pro players shouldn't really need instant reinforcements. Agreed 100% because if the developers aren't allowed to tinker with game mechanics which are sacrosanctyl off-limits, then the programmers are backed into a corner on how to work around the clusterf*ck which is protoss warpgate (which forces the race's units to be nerfed, which nobody wants, so please blizzard take back warpgate once and for all.!!!)
Yes, what's stopping Blizzard?
If we are supposed to take SC2 seriously as a long-term e-sport then why would they keep something in the game that most people agree is flawed when they have the ability to change the game during LotV? It reminds me of how FIFA won't allow modern technology for the referees even though there are no technological barriers and everyone thinks it's a good idea.
|
On October 16 2013 20:57 cenk_unger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 20:45 Twiggs wrote:On October 16 2013 20:19 Big J wrote:On October 16 2013 20:03 zimms wrote:On October 16 2013 19:34 Rabiator wrote:
Warp Gate is a NECESSITY due to the inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves.[...] The inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves is a NECESSITY due to Warp Gates. Wich came first, the chicken or the egg? I think in this case Blizzard first wanted to add those cool Warp Gates and later had to weaken the Protoss units. The chicken. And in this case, the inefficiency of the gateway units. Zealots and Stalkers have essentially the same stats as Zealots and Dragoons in BW. They are kind of a 1to1 port. I htink Warpgate is actually a great idea for Protoss, because Protoss units are so immobile by design and warpgate is actually a good way to give protoss some harass tool, without completely having to replace Zealot/Dragoon/Templar/Archon with faster/more fragile units. Though the ones that Protoss has are still too beefy/low dps imo, which causes this whole deathball turtle in many games. Can we stop calling warped in units harass tools? Its a gimmick because its a coin flip, 1 to 1 relationship of attack did crucial damage and paid for the warp in or attack got smashed and resources are wasted. You are literally taking your production buildings and putting them into the enemy's territory, with really no way of retrieving those units once the attack commences. Harassment revolves around highly positional and mobile tactics and more importantly it has a better chance of retaining its value and being useful throughout the whole game, especially in the hands of a professional (ex: drops can be retained and retreated and used later on, air units, mobile units etc.) Warping in "harassment armies" is the same damn thing as walking them over there and attacking except it takes less time to reach the attack position once the player decides to attack. More importantly the warped in units that we typically have to use as protoss are not mirco intensive so these attacks are more strategic decisions rather than micro wars and IMO that makes it completely boring to watch and execute when compared to the latter. It is a stupid mechanic that Blizzard is so hell bent on keeping (because it was one of their original ideas to mix the game up from broodwar) and there are many other examples of units/mechanics in SC 2 that the development team doesn't want to throw out even if they are bad game designs. PS: if I ever had the choice between instant reinforcements or just all around stronger units I'd take the stronger units any day of the week. Instant reinforcing can mostly be mimicked by strong game sense and predicting where reinforcements will be needed in the future, i.e. pro players shouldn't really need instant reinforcements. Agreed 100% because if the developers aren't allowed to tinker with game mechanics which are sacrosanctyl off-limits, then the programmers are backed into a corner on how to work around the clusterf*ck which is protoss warpgate (which forces the race's units to be nerfed, which nobody wants, so please blizzard take back warpgate once and for all.!!!)
They haven't even really tinkered with warpgate or alot of other things since beta. Its just like you said they are "off-limits" haha
|
On October 16 2013 20:45 Twiggs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 20:19 Big J wrote:On October 16 2013 20:03 zimms wrote:On October 16 2013 19:34 Rabiator wrote:
Warp Gate is a NECESSITY due to the inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves.[...] The inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves is a NECESSITY due to Warp Gates. Wich came first, the chicken or the egg? I think in this case Blizzard first wanted to add those cool Warp Gates and later had to weaken the Protoss units. The chicken. And in this case, the inefficiency of the gateway units. Zealots and Stalkers have essentially the same stats as Zealots and Dragoons in BW. They are kind of a 1to1 port. I htink Warpgate is actually a great idea for Protoss, because Protoss units are so immobile by design and warpgate is actually a good way to give protoss some harass tool, without completely having to replace Zealot/Dragoon/Templar/Archon with faster/more fragile units. Though the ones that Protoss has are still too beefy/low dps imo, which causes this whole deathball turtle in many games. Can we stop calling warped in units harass tools? Its a gimmick because its a coin flip, 1 to 1 relationship of attack did crucial damage and paid for the warp in or attack got smashed and resources are wasted.
Then don't use them blindly.
You are literally taking your production buildings and putting them into the enemy's territory, with really no way of retrieving those units once the attack commences.
And you can't retrieve a zealot or dragoon either once it's in the enemy territory. That's not warp gates fault, but warp gate at least allows to deliever them against more mobile enemy compositions.
Harassment revolves around highly positional and mobile tactics and more importantly it has a better chance of retaining its value and being useful throughout the whole game, especially in the hands of a professional (ex: drops can be retained and retreated and used later on, air units, mobile units etc.)
a) Completely arbitrary statement. As can be seen by any form of runby harass which you hardly ever retain.
b) Having your pylons in place/using a warp prism revolves around having certain positions/mobility and the opponent being out of position.
Warping in "harassment armies" is the same damn thing as walking them over there and attacking except it takes less time to reach the attack position once the player decides to attack.
Exactly. And it is also the exact same thing as having more mobile armies that reach the attack position faster because of their speed, even though they have to be built at home.
More importantly the warped in units that we typically have to use as protoss are not mirco intensive so these attacks are more strategic decisions rather than micro wars and IMO that makes it completely boring to watch and execute when compared to the latter.
Neither are many Zerg or Terran units that are used to harass.
PS: if I ever had the choice between instant reinforcements or just all around stronger units I'd take the stronger units any day of the week. Instant reinforcing can mostly be mimicked by strong game sense and predicting where reinforcements will be needed in the future, i.e. pro players shouldn't really need instant reinforcements.
Yeah. Everyone would take more power over more mobility. Makes the game pretty easy if the best strategy is to headbutt with a strong army.
|
19533 Posts
On October 16 2013 20:57 cenk_unger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 20:45 Twiggs wrote:On October 16 2013 20:19 Big J wrote:On October 16 2013 20:03 zimms wrote:On October 16 2013 19:34 Rabiator wrote:
Warp Gate is a NECESSITY due to the inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves.[...] The inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves is a NECESSITY due to Warp Gates. Wich came first, the chicken or the egg? I think in this case Blizzard first wanted to add those cool Warp Gates and later had to weaken the Protoss units. The chicken. And in this case, the inefficiency of the gateway units. Zealots and Stalkers have essentially the same stats as Zealots and Dragoons in BW. They are kind of a 1to1 port. I htink Warpgate is actually a great idea for Protoss, because Protoss units are so immobile by design and warpgate is actually a good way to give protoss some harass tool, without completely having to replace Zealot/Dragoon/Templar/Archon with faster/more fragile units. Though the ones that Protoss has are still too beefy/low dps imo, which causes this whole deathball turtle in many games. Can we stop calling warped in units harass tools? Its a gimmick because its a coin flip, 1 to 1 relationship of attack did crucial damage and paid for the warp in or attack got smashed and resources are wasted. You are literally taking your production buildings and putting them into the enemy's territory, with really no way of retrieving those units once the attack commences. Harassment revolves around highly positional and mobile tactics and more importantly it has a better chance of retaining its value and being useful throughout the whole game, especially in the hands of a professional (ex: drops can be retained and retreated and used later on, air units, mobile units etc.) Warping in "harassment armies" is the same damn thing as walking them over there and attacking except it takes less time to reach the attack position once the player decides to attack. More importantly the warped in units that we typically have to use as protoss are not mirco intensive so these attacks are more strategic decisions rather than micro wars and IMO that makes it completely boring to watch and execute when compared to the latter. It is a stupid mechanic that Blizzard is so hell bent on keeping (because it was one of their original ideas to mix the game up from broodwar) and there are many other examples of units/mechanics in SC 2 that the development team doesn't want to throw out even if they are bad game designs. PS: if I ever had the choice between instant reinforcements or just all around stronger units I'd take the stronger units any day of the week. Instant reinforcing can mostly be mimicked by strong game sense and predicting where reinforcements will be needed in the future, i.e. pro players shouldn't really need instant reinforcements. Agreed 100% because if the developers aren't allowed to tinker with game mechanics which are sacrosanctyl off-limits, then the programmers are backed into a corner on how to work around the clusterf*ck which is protoss warpgate (which forces the race's units to be nerfed, which nobody wants, so please blizzard take back warpgate once and for all.!!!)
i dont think they should remove the warpgate, just make it more of a choice to use.
They could add a gatewayunit, that cant be warped in for example. So pros would need to consider what they need at the time. Warpgate as a concept isnt that bad, but it could be better implemented.
|
On October 16 2013 20:57 cenk_unger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 20:45 Twiggs wrote:On October 16 2013 20:19 Big J wrote:On October 16 2013 20:03 zimms wrote:On October 16 2013 19:34 Rabiator wrote:
Warp Gate is a NECESSITY due to the inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves.[...] The inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves is a NECESSITY due to Warp Gates. Wich came first, the chicken or the egg? I think in this case Blizzard first wanted to add those cool Warp Gates and later had to weaken the Protoss units. The chicken. And in this case, the inefficiency of the gateway units. Zealots and Stalkers have essentially the same stats as Zealots and Dragoons in BW. They are kind of a 1to1 port. I htink Warpgate is actually a great idea for Protoss, because Protoss units are so immobile by design and warpgate is actually a good way to give protoss some harass tool, without completely having to replace Zealot/Dragoon/Templar/Archon with faster/more fragile units. Though the ones that Protoss has are still too beefy/low dps imo, which causes this whole deathball turtle in many games. Can we stop calling warped in units harass tools? Its a gimmick because its a coin flip, 1 to 1 relationship of attack did crucial damage and paid for the warp in or attack got smashed and resources are wasted. You are literally taking your production buildings and putting them into the enemy's territory, with really no way of retrieving those units once the attack commences. Harassment revolves around highly positional and mobile tactics and more importantly it has a better chance of retaining its value and being useful throughout the whole game, especially in the hands of a professional (ex: drops can be retained and retreated and used later on, air units, mobile units etc.) Warping in "harassment armies" is the same damn thing as walking them over there and attacking except it takes less time to reach the attack position once the player decides to attack. More importantly the warped in units that we typically have to use as protoss are not mirco intensive so these attacks are more strategic decisions rather than micro wars and IMO that makes it completely boring to watch and execute when compared to the latter. It is a stupid mechanic that Blizzard is so hell bent on keeping (because it was one of their original ideas to mix the game up from broodwar) and there are many other examples of units/mechanics in SC 2 that the development team doesn't want to throw out even if they are bad game designs. PS: if I ever had the choice between instant reinforcements or just all around stronger units I'd take the stronger units any day of the week. Instant reinforcing can mostly be mimicked by strong game sense and predicting where reinforcements will be needed in the future, i.e. pro players shouldn't really need instant reinforcements. Agreed 100% because if the developers aren't allowed to tinker with game mechanics which are sacrosanctyl off-limits, then the programmers are backed into a corner on how to work around the clusterf*ck which is protoss warpgate (which forces the race's units to be nerfed, which nobody wants, so please blizzard take back warpgate once and for all.!!!)
Let's say they take back warp in. They then proceed to make gateway units stronger to make up for it. What then happens in TvP or TvZ? TvZ is a bit straight forward early zealot timings would become stronger, but probably wouldn't change the matchup completely. TvP however the current medivac drops would tear protoss apart. When defending with only 20 or so supply in units, but losing warp in Terran would simply dominate. Maybe then in LotV they could invent a ground unit based out of the barracks that healed bio units and remove that ability from the medivac. I don't know what they would call it, but it would be a cool idea. 
That is just my rant on what they lost from the BW transition. I really actually don't like how gateway units function when compared to BW. They are very weak protoss lost it's identity of strong expensive units and now is a more mass unit race. Also protoss's "strong" units are fairly weak. Not extremely weak, but immortals have issues in larger armies with actually attacking as well as colossi being so easily countered by air, also templar being easily countered by ghosts, those these issues are manageable they don't make the game more appealing.
|
On October 16 2013 21:33 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 20:57 cenk_unger wrote:On October 16 2013 20:45 Twiggs wrote:On October 16 2013 20:19 Big J wrote:On October 16 2013 20:03 zimms wrote:On October 16 2013 19:34 Rabiator wrote:
Warp Gate is a NECESSITY due to the inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves.[...] The inefficiency of the Protoss units by themselves is a NECESSITY due to Warp Gates. Wich came first, the chicken or the egg? I think in this case Blizzard first wanted to add those cool Warp Gates and later had to weaken the Protoss units. The chicken. And in this case, the inefficiency of the gateway units. Zealots and Stalkers have essentially the same stats as Zealots and Dragoons in BW. They are kind of a 1to1 port. I htink Warpgate is actually a great idea for Protoss, because Protoss units are so immobile by design and warpgate is actually a good way to give protoss some harass tool, without completely having to replace Zealot/Dragoon/Templar/Archon with faster/more fragile units. Though the ones that Protoss has are still too beefy/low dps imo, which causes this whole deathball turtle in many games. Can we stop calling warped in units harass tools? Its a gimmick because its a coin flip, 1 to 1 relationship of attack did crucial damage and paid for the warp in or attack got smashed and resources are wasted. You are literally taking your production buildings and putting them into the enemy's territory, with really no way of retrieving those units once the attack commences. Harassment revolves around highly positional and mobile tactics and more importantly it has a better chance of retaining its value and being useful throughout the whole game, especially in the hands of a professional (ex: drops can be retained and retreated and used later on, air units, mobile units etc.) Warping in "harassment armies" is the same damn thing as walking them over there and attacking except it takes less time to reach the attack position once the player decides to attack. More importantly the warped in units that we typically have to use as protoss are not mirco intensive so these attacks are more strategic decisions rather than micro wars and IMO that makes it completely boring to watch and execute when compared to the latter. It is a stupid mechanic that Blizzard is so hell bent on keeping (because it was one of their original ideas to mix the game up from broodwar) and there are many other examples of units/mechanics in SC 2 that the development team doesn't want to throw out even if they are bad game designs. PS: if I ever had the choice between instant reinforcements or just all around stronger units I'd take the stronger units any day of the week. Instant reinforcing can mostly be mimicked by strong game sense and predicting where reinforcements will be needed in the future, i.e. pro players shouldn't really need instant reinforcements. Agreed 100% because if the developers aren't allowed to tinker with game mechanics which are sacrosanctyl off-limits, then the programmers are backed into a corner on how to work around the clusterf*ck which is protoss warpgate (which forces the race's units to be nerfed, which nobody wants, so please blizzard take back warpgate once and for all.!!!) Let's say they take back warp in. They then proceed to make gateway units stronger to make up for it. What then happens in TvP or TvZ? TvZ is a bit straight forward early zealot timings would become stronger, but probably wouldn't change the matchup completely. TvP however the current medivac drops would tear protoss apart. When defending with only 20 or so supply in units, but losing warp in Terran would simply dominate. Maybe then in LotV they could invent a ground unit based out of the barracks that healed bio units and remove that ability from the medivac. I don't know what they would call it, but it would be a cool idea. That is just my rant on what they lost from the BW transition. I really actually don't like how gateway units function when compared to BW. They are very weak protoss lost it's identity of strong expensive units and now is a more mass unit race. Also protoss's "strong" units are fairly weak. Not extremely weak, but immortals have issues in larger armies with actually attacking as well as colossi being so easily countered by air, also templar being easily countered by ghosts, those these issues are manageable they don't make the game more appealing.
Medic? 
I feel that dragoons and zealots back then in BW were scarier than stalkers and zealots in Sc2.Usually it is cutting corners for a P to higher tech units and surviving until then.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
