If you ever get a Protoss warping in lots of units in your own base you will know what is meant with "too much volatility". As a professional you can deal with it, but casuals wont be.
If you call that volatility, then BW is about as volatile. Ever experienced arbiter's recall in your own base :D?
Not sure how you are comparing the two. Arbiter's recall is a spell and it's limited as in once the arbiter gets the recall, that's all the units that are in. With warping units, if you can't deal with the units fast enough to prevent the second wave which chronoboost can help get them warping in faster, you get overrun. Also, spider mines and lots of turrets prevented a lot of arbiter recalls, not to mention emps. I guess putting vikings is the best deterrent for late game warping ins.
If you ever get a Protoss warping in lots of units in your own base you will know what is meant with "too much volatility". As a professional you can deal with it, but casuals wont be.
If you call that volatility, then BW is about as volatile. Ever experienced arbiter's recall in your own base :D?
Not sure how you are comparing the two. Arbiter's recall is a spell and it's limited as in once the arbiter gets the recall, that's all the units that are in. With warping units, if you can't deal with the units fast enough to prevent the second wave which chronoboost can help get them warping in faster, you get overrun. Also, spider mines and lots of turrets prevented a lot of arbiter recalls, not to mention emps. I guess putting vikings is the best deterrent for late game warping ins.
I prefer games where Terran can do drop play and Protoss can threaten warp prism play forcing a dynamic back and forth scouting wise as both sides keep preventing the other from unzipping their base's pants.
If you ever get a Protoss warping in lots of units in your own base you will know what is meant with "too much volatility". As a professional you can deal with it, but casuals wont be.
If you call that volatility, then BW is about as volatile. Ever experienced arbiter's recall in your own base :D?
Not sure how you are comparing the two. Arbiter's recall is a spell and it's limited as in once the arbiter gets the recall, that's all the units that are in. With warping units, if you can't deal with the units fast enough to prevent the second wave which chronoboost can help get them warping in faster, you get overrun. Also, spider mines and lots of turrets prevented a lot of arbiter recalls, not to mention emps. I guess putting vikings is the best deterrent for late game warping ins.
I prefer games where Terran can do drop play and Protoss can threaten warp prism play forcing a dynamic back and forth scouting wise as both sides keep preventing the other from unzipping their base's pants.
your post makes it sound like dropships and shuttles didn't exist in broodwar and that they weren't used when that was not the case at all. You should watch some of fantasy's game, would help you see what I mean.
If you ever get a Protoss warping in lots of units in your own base you will know what is meant with "too much volatility". As a professional you can deal with it, but casuals wont be.
If you call that volatility, then BW is about as volatile. Ever experienced arbiter's recall in your own base :D?
This is absolutely not the same.
They are not the same but do essentially the same thing: ALL MY BASE ARE BELONG TO HIM.
Not exactly. Arbiter recalls require the army to already be produced. Warp in- any pylon can instantly transport your gateway production to anywhere on a map. That is if you have a bad double recall of your army on top of a ton of mines, Terran have a window to exploit as the Protoss has to remacro up. With warp-gate, the Protoss is on 200/200, but if he if he has a stockpile of minerals and 20 gateways, he essentially has an additional 40 supply waiting for the first Protoss units to fall to instantly remax. Not very similar at all.
But in the sense that you have have units instantly in your base from across the map, then yes they are the same.
I think the drop-play in SC2 is not as exciting as it was in BW. Because of BW's lower army and lesser producing capabilities, a drop in BW was done at a higher risk. A bad drop, and there goes a part of your army which would take much longer time to replace in BW compared to SC2.
Plays with high risks appeal the audience, I think.
On October 16 2013 09:24 Cream)Muffin wrote: I think the drop-play in SC2 is not as exciting as it was in BW. Because of BW's lower army and lesser producing capabilities, a drop in BW was done at a higher risk. A bad drop, and there goes a part of your army which would take much longer time to replace in BW compared to SC2.
Plays with high risks appeal the audience, I think.
If you ever get a Protoss warping in lots of units in your own base you will know what is meant with "too much volatility". As a professional you can deal with it, but casuals wont be.
If you call that volatility, then BW is about as volatile. Ever experienced arbiter's recall in your own base :D?
This is absolutely not the same.
They are not the same but do essentially the same thing: ALL MY BASE ARE BELONG TO HIM.
Not exactly. Arbiter recalls require the army to already be produced. Warp in- any pylon can instantly transport your gateway production to anywhere on a map. That is if you have a bad double recall of your army on top of a ton of mines, Terran have a window to exploit as the Protoss has to remacro up. With warp-gate, the Protoss is on 200/200, but if he if he has a stockpile of minerals and 20 gateways, he essentially has an additional 40 supply waiting for the first Protoss units to fall to instantly remax. Not very similar at all.
But in the sense that you have have units instantly in your base from across the map, then yes they are the same.
pretty much this. Good explanation Falling, better than mine lol. I think if Blizzard changes WG to work with pylon distance so more time for a longer distance across the map, then you can have WG still remain viable but also using normal gatways so protoss players can macro like terran without having to go to a pylon placement(aside for an offensive). Would bring back some defenders advantage due your opponent having units 'there' and would add so much to the game that it disappoints me that Blizzard isn't even considering it lol.
On October 16 2013 09:56 aZealot wrote: It took a while, but we finally got there: Warpgate.
*Golf Clap*
Made extra funny because a 2nd Arbiter can just recall the next production round or two of units in if it seems advantageous. Or recall the first units out it gets too ugly.
But clearly warp prisms are evil, while multiple cheap, fast motherships rolling around the map are completely fine.
I've long, long wanted Protoss to produce from rallied gates, or at least get SOME advantage for doing so. I.e unwarped gates > warpgates for speed of production, with the tradeoff being reinforcement potential. That or make warpins only available to warp prisms in phase mode, or something along those lines.
Jesus Blizzard, get on it! Hell, there have been plenty of non-remove tweaks to warpgate mentioned over the last three years. Yeah it'll be painful, but a re-examination will make Protoss so much potentially cooler to play and observe.
I don't know, I feel like warp gate is actually at quite a good position now, being able to instantly choose what kind of unit to warp in is quite important
If you ever get a Protoss warping in lots of units in your own base you will know what is meant with "too much volatility". As a professional you can deal with it, but casuals wont be.
If you call that volatility, then BW is about as volatile. Ever experienced arbiter's recall in your own base :D?
This is absolutely not the same.
They are not the same but do essentially the same thing: ALL MY BASE ARE BELONG TO HIM.
Not exactly. Arbiter recalls require the army to already be produced. Warp in- any pylon can instantly transport your gateway production to anywhere on a map. That is if you have a bad double recall of your army on top of a ton of mines, Terran have a window to exploit as the Protoss has to remacro up. With warp-gate, the Protoss is on 200/200, but if he if he has a stockpile of minerals and 20 gateways, he essentially has an additional 40 supply waiting for the first Protoss units to fall to instantly remax. Not very similar at all.
But in the sense that you have have units instantly in your base from across the map, then yes they are the same.
I meant the exact last line. If one can call warp-in from prism volatile, then recall is just as volatile in that sense. Not to mention that turret rings work against prisms even better than against arbiters :3, but nobody builds them cause mineral-heavy.
If you ever get a Protoss warping in lots of units in your own base you will know what is meant with "too much volatility". As a professional you can deal with it, but casuals wont be.
If you call that volatility, then BW is about as volatile. Ever experienced arbiter's recall in your own base :D?
One is "end game high gas cost" that I can defend against with turrets AND which takes skill to use and the other is "basic early MUST-HAVE production speed increase upgrade" which requires no skill and which I cant defend against. Sure enough keep on comparing them if you must and apples and oranges are the same too because you can eat both of them, right?
On September 21 2013 03:40 Xeris wrote: What's the problem: Battle.net isn't as much about community and interaction as it was in Brood War. There's too much emphasis on laddering and it doesn't appeal to casuals.
Am I the only one who thinks that the improper implementation of community channels in Bnet is not the only issue why Starcraft 2 is unappealing to casuals? Is it just me, or are there other people who find Starcraft 2 relatively unforgiving, compared to other rts like Starcraft 1, Warcraft 3, Age of Empires 2?
I mean, I don't pay attention to the right spot for a few seconds and I am so far behind that it takes a small miracle for me to get back into the game. Whether it be banelings hitting my clumped marines, an oracle or a couple of hellbats left unchecked for several seconds in my mineral line, templars landing a couple of money storms before I can emp. Now, this is nothing about balance as this goes both ways. But is sc2 really that unforgiving compared to the other rts I played, or was I just not invested enough in the other games to notice it?
I agree. I think it's also unforgiving. My thoughts on that is tat its due to the changes that Blizzard implemented. For ex, taking the templars storming. With smart casting, you can easily select the control group and spam storm. In BW, you had to manually use each templar otherwise they'll all storm that same location and storms don't add so you lost x amount of storms. This means that your opponent can't just mass storm and you still have a chance to spread your units and emp. This also works in reverse with terran having his ghost together in SCII and mass emp etc... Banelings are kinda like lurkers in BW so I think that was on the same level(lurkers shred marines). Can't say much for hellbats.
As far as I remember, there was a trick with high templars in BW where you can select several but storm different places at the same time.
Magic Box.
Haha, that video brings back so many memories. Anyone else remember when Nada had awesome vulture micro even before the patrol-key trick was discovered!?
On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote: Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching.
What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost?
Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units.
This - I'm afraid - is the heart of the problem of SC2 as an e-sport. How many current SC2 viewers, current viewers of other e-sports and not-yet e-sports consumers really wanna watch for hours a game where building worker units marginally quicker often decides the match?
Many times we have or had "top 10 moments" videos after tournaments. These strangely showed fighting unproportionally more often than creepspreading, muledropping or chronoboosting. Wierd isn't it?
Apparently almost 100k for IEM NY, 100k+ for WCS EU and thousands of other for other tournaments.
I can only repeat myself so many times: Stop making up stuff.
"There's no micro in SC2" "Nobody wants to watch this" What is this, 2009?!
You guys have to stick your heads out of your arse. If SC2 really was only about "making workers slightly faster" then we wouldn't have consistent winners, and as countless posts already pointed out, we do in fact have consistent winners! We also have consistent losers, and we also have former winners that are now losers (and thus leavers).
There ARE comebacks(we had a few this weekend at IEM NY). We HAVE micro. We HAVE skill in SC2.
It's different from BW, it's different from, it's different from DotA2 and might not attract 300k viewers. But thats still OKAY.
Yeah, its different... The problem is the players and viewers have been given the choice to adapt to these differences or leave and most are choosing to leave. We don't like the differences blizzard gave us. The grace period is over, we have played and watched the hell out of SC 2 and if legacy of the void doesn't revolutionize the game like BW did then sadly the scene will only get smaller and smaller.
Just speaking from a very small sample size (me) I watch Starcraft 2 much much less than I did this time last year and I play it even less.
I feel this is the problem of Starcraft 2 and why we continue to make these threads.
There is something missing from our beloved game that we feel we were promised (the epicness of BW promised that its sequel would be even more epic).
On October 15 2013 02:07 a176 wrote: When was the last time a player switched to SC2?
SelecT!
On October 15 2013 15:33 Aiobhill wrote:
On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:
On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote: Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching.
What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost?
Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units.
This - I'm afraid - is the heart of the problem of SC2 as an e-sport. How many current SC2 viewers, current viewers of other e-sports and not-yet e-sports consumers really wanna watch for hours a game where building worker units marginally quicker often decides the match?
Many times we have or had "top 10 moments" videos after tournaments. These strangely showed fighting unproportionally more often than creepspreading, muledropping or chronoboosting. Wierd isn't it?
Apparently almost 100k for IEM NY, 100k+ for WCS EU and thousands of other for other tournaments.
I can only repeat myself so many times: Stop making up stuff.
"There's no micro in SC2" "Nobody wants to watch this" What is this, 2009?!
You guys have to stick your heads out of your arse. If SC2 really was only about "making workers slightly faster" then we wouldn't have consistent winners, and as countless posts already pointed out, we do in fact have consistent winners! We also have consistent losers, and we also have former winners that are now losers (and thus leavers).
There ARE comebacks(we had a few this weekend at IEM NY). We HAVE micro. We HAVE skill in SC2.
It's different from BW, it's different from, it's different from DotA2 and might not attract 300k viewers. But thats still OKAY.
Yeah, its different... The problem is the players and viewers have given the choice to adapt to these differences or leave and most are choosing to leave. We don't like the differences blizzard gave us. The grace period is over, we have played and watched the hell out of SC 2 and if legacy of the void doesn't revolutionize the game like BW did then sadly the scene will only get smaller and smaller.
Just speaking from a very small sample size (me) I watch Starcraft 2 much much less than I did this time last year and I play it even less.
I feel this is the problem of Starcraft 2 and why we continue to make these threads.
There is something missing from our beloved game that we feel we were promised (the epicness of BW promised that its sequel would be even more epic).
Sadly I agree. My stubborn loyalty Starcraft broodwar (the game and the vods) are the only reasons I have any loyalty to SC2. SC2 is a great game, but it's not an examplary game. As much as I want to force myself to be as captivated and enthralled by SC2 as I was back in 2005-2009 to brood war, there's just not any further way for me to rationalize it any longer.
Do you remember during Avaretec-Intel Classic (2009) and the TG. Sambo tournament (2008) when tasteless said that SC2 will be just a "face lift" and will retain most of the glory of SC1. He also said that SC1 would be the starting point of SC2 rather than a whole new game (mentioning things like mutalisk micro would definitely be kept).
Depressed because I'm thinking back in 2009, it was before my neighbor's gf got pregnant with some other dude's baby and the resulting shitstorm in 2010. (she was stalking him and would send cars to drive by their house at 3am and throw firecrackers on their porch which woke up the whole f*cking neighborhood!! Ugh!)
EPT
