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On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units.
This - I'm afraid - is the heart of the problem of SC2 as an e-sport. How many current SC2 viewers, current viewers of other e-sports and not-yet e-sports consumers really wanna watch for hours a game where building worker units marginally quicker often decides the match?
Many times we have or had "top 10 moments" videos after tournaments. These strangely showed fighting unproportionally more often than creepspreading, muledropping or chronoboosting. Wierd isn't it?
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On October 15 2013 02:07 a176 wrote:
When was the last time a player switched to SC2?
SelecT!
On October 15 2013 15:33 Aiobhill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units. This - I'm afraid - is the heart of the problem of SC2 as an e-sport. How many current SC2 viewers, current viewers of other e-sports and not-yet e-sports consumers really wanna watch for hours a game where building worker units marginally quicker often decides the match? Many times we have or had "top 10 moments" videos after tournaments. These strangely showed fighting unproportionally more often than creepspreading, muledropping or chronoboosting. Wierd isn't it?
Apparently almost 100k for IEM NY, 100k+ for WCS EU and thousands of other for other tournaments.
I can only repeat myself so many times:
Stop making up stuff.
"There's no micro in SC2"
"Nobody wants to watch this"
What is this, 2009?!
You guys have to stick your heads out of your arse. If SC2 really was only about "making workers slightly faster" then we wouldn't have consistent winners, and as countless posts already pointed out, we do in fact have consistent winners! We also have consistent losers, and we also have former winners that are now losers (and thus leavers).
There ARE comebacks(we had a few this weekend at IEM NY). We HAVE micro. We HAVE skill in SC2.
It's different from BW, it's different from, it's different from DotA2 and might not attract 300k viewers.
But thats still OKAY.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 15 2013 14:51 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 14:34 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units. Xiphos is right. Once you get to late game with 5-6 bases and multiple inbase hatcheries, imagine having to go to each base and manually click on the hatchery then select the larvae and make units from it. Larva inject in a way simplifies the macro since even though you have to remember to inject larva, you get 7 larvae so that's 4 more larva than usual. With 3 bases, instead of 9 larva, you have 21 larva which is equivalent to 7 hatcheries lol. This doesn't include any inbase hatchery or more bases XD Creep spread adds to APM activity but I think someone mentioned its about 17 or so at best. Chronoboost can create some interesting timings but it's not a must aside from making probes out faster(and upgrades too for a timing attack). You can chronoboost from the minimap, same with larva inject which is what I used to do  As an addendum, I've wrote a piece on SC2 vs BW zerg mechanics comparison here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370433
interesting. Still have to wonder why they banned you though? XD
On October 15 2013 16:04 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 02:07 a176 wrote:
When was the last time a player switched to SC2? SelecT! Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 15:33 Aiobhill wrote:On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units. This - I'm afraid - is the heart of the problem of SC2 as an e-sport. How many current SC2 viewers, current viewers of other e-sports and not-yet e-sports consumers really wanna watch for hours a game where building worker units marginally quicker often decides the match? Many times we have or had "top 10 moments" videos after tournaments. These strangely showed fighting unproportionally more often than creepspreading, muledropping or chronoboosting. Wierd isn't it? Apparently almost 100k for IEM NY, 100k+ for WCS EU and thousands of other for other tournaments. I can only repeat myself so many times: Stop making up stuff. "There's no micro in SC2" "Nobody wants to watch this" What is this, 2009?!
Select came back to SCII after his move to LoL(or was it dota?) was unsuccessful so he doesn't qualify lol. As for the second comment, I think you missed his joke comment lol. Starcraft II wasn't released in 2009 >.> unless that was the joke lol.
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On October 15 2013 16:05 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 14:51 Xiphos wrote:On October 15 2013 14:34 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units. Xiphos is right. Once you get to late game with 5-6 bases and multiple inbase hatcheries, imagine having to go to each base and manually click on the hatchery then select the larvae and make units from it. Larva inject in a way simplifies the macro since even though you have to remember to inject larva, you get 7 larvae so that's 4 more larva than usual. With 3 bases, instead of 9 larva, you have 21 larva which is equivalent to 7 hatcheries lol. This doesn't include any inbase hatchery or more bases XD Creep spread adds to APM activity but I think someone mentioned its about 17 or so at best. Chronoboost can create some interesting timings but it's not a must aside from making probes out faster(and upgrades too for a timing attack). You can chronoboost from the minimap, same with larva inject which is what I used to do As an addendum, I've wrote a piece on SC2 vs BW zerg mechanics comparison here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370433 interesting. Still have to wonder why they banned you though? XD Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 16:04 KeksX wrote:On October 15 2013 02:07 a176 wrote:
When was the last time a player switched to SC2? SelecT! On October 15 2013 15:33 Aiobhill wrote:On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units. This - I'm afraid - is the heart of the problem of SC2 as an e-sport. How many current SC2 viewers, current viewers of other e-sports and not-yet e-sports consumers really wanna watch for hours a game where building worker units marginally quicker often decides the match? Many times we have or had "top 10 moments" videos after tournaments. These strangely showed fighting unproportionally more often than creepspreading, muledropping or chronoboosting. Wierd isn't it? Apparently almost 100k for IEM NY, 100k+ for WCS EU and thousands of other for other tournaments. I can only repeat myself so many times: Stop making up stuff. "There's no micro in SC2" "Nobody wants to watch this" What is this, 2009?! Select came back to SCII after his move to LoL(or was it dota?) was unsuccessful so he doesn't qualify lol. As for the second comment, I think you missed his joke comment lol. Starcraft II wasn't released in 2009 >.> unless that was the joke lol.
I'm referring to the fact that priot to SC2 release people posted the same stuff. Like, almost word for word. Thats why I said 2009, because people didn't get to play the game. And I suspect many here to do the same.
EDIT:
Also, about your argument:
Almost every player that switched from SC2 did so because he didn't have success in SC2(anymore). SelecT did exactly the same thing.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 15 2013 16:09 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 16:05 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 14:51 Xiphos wrote:On October 15 2013 14:34 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units. Xiphos is right. Once you get to late game with 5-6 bases and multiple inbase hatcheries, imagine having to go to each base and manually click on the hatchery then select the larvae and make units from it. Larva inject in a way simplifies the macro since even though you have to remember to inject larva, you get 7 larvae so that's 4 more larva than usual. With 3 bases, instead of 9 larva, you have 21 larva which is equivalent to 7 hatcheries lol. This doesn't include any inbase hatchery or more bases XD Creep spread adds to APM activity but I think someone mentioned its about 17 or so at best. Chronoboost can create some interesting timings but it's not a must aside from making probes out faster(and upgrades too for a timing attack). You can chronoboost from the minimap, same with larva inject which is what I used to do As an addendum, I've wrote a piece on SC2 vs BW zerg mechanics comparison here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370433 interesting. Still have to wonder why they banned you though? XD On October 15 2013 16:04 KeksX wrote:On October 15 2013 02:07 a176 wrote:
When was the last time a player switched to SC2? SelecT! On October 15 2013 15:33 Aiobhill wrote:On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units. This - I'm afraid - is the heart of the problem of SC2 as an e-sport. How many current SC2 viewers, current viewers of other e-sports and not-yet e-sports consumers really wanna watch for hours a game where building worker units marginally quicker often decides the match? Many times we have or had "top 10 moments" videos after tournaments. These strangely showed fighting unproportionally more often than creepspreading, muledropping or chronoboosting. Wierd isn't it? Apparently almost 100k for IEM NY, 100k+ for WCS EU and thousands of other for other tournaments. I can only repeat myself so many times: Stop making up stuff. "There's no micro in SC2" "Nobody wants to watch this" What is this, 2009?! Select came back to SCII after his move to LoL(or was it dota?) was unsuccessful so he doesn't qualify lol. As for the second comment, I think you missed his joke comment lol. Starcraft II wasn't released in 2009 >.> unless that was the joke lol. I'm referring to the fact that priot to SC2 release people posted the same stuff. Like, almost word for word. Thats why I said 2009, because people didn't get to play the game. And I suspect many here to do the same. EDIT: Also, about your argument: Almost every player that switched from SC2 did so because he didn't have success in SC2(anymore). SelecT did exactly the same thing.
His point was that we don't have many new players in SCII in the sense that none have switched into it. We got more players that came with the KeSPA switch but we haven't heard much from others. I wasn't here in 2009 so I can't say much on what they were saying. Are you talking about the macro mechanics comments? Also, I played SCII a lot so I'm not just saying lol
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On October 15 2013 16:28 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 16:09 KeksX wrote:On October 15 2013 16:05 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 14:51 Xiphos wrote:On October 15 2013 14:34 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units. Xiphos is right. Once you get to late game with 5-6 bases and multiple inbase hatcheries, imagine having to go to each base and manually click on the hatchery then select the larvae and make units from it. Larva inject in a way simplifies the macro since even though you have to remember to inject larva, you get 7 larvae so that's 4 more larva than usual. With 3 bases, instead of 9 larva, you have 21 larva which is equivalent to 7 hatcheries lol. This doesn't include any inbase hatchery or more bases XD Creep spread adds to APM activity but I think someone mentioned its about 17 or so at best. Chronoboost can create some interesting timings but it's not a must aside from making probes out faster(and upgrades too for a timing attack). You can chronoboost from the minimap, same with larva inject which is what I used to do As an addendum, I've wrote a piece on SC2 vs BW zerg mechanics comparison here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370433 interesting. Still have to wonder why they banned you though? XD On October 15 2013 16:04 KeksX wrote:On October 15 2013 02:07 a176 wrote:
When was the last time a player switched to SC2? SelecT! On October 15 2013 15:33 Aiobhill wrote:On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units. This - I'm afraid - is the heart of the problem of SC2 as an e-sport. How many current SC2 viewers, current viewers of other e-sports and not-yet e-sports consumers really wanna watch for hours a game where building worker units marginally quicker often decides the match? Many times we have or had "top 10 moments" videos after tournaments. These strangely showed fighting unproportionally more often than creepspreading, muledropping or chronoboosting. Wierd isn't it? Apparently almost 100k for IEM NY, 100k+ for WCS EU and thousands of other for other tournaments. I can only repeat myself so many times: Stop making up stuff. "There's no micro in SC2" "Nobody wants to watch this" What is this, 2009?! Select came back to SCII after his move to LoL(or was it dota?) was unsuccessful so he doesn't qualify lol. As for the second comment, I think you missed his joke comment lol. Starcraft II wasn't released in 2009 >.> unless that was the joke lol. I'm referring to the fact that priot to SC2 release people posted the same stuff. Like, almost word for word. Thats why I said 2009, because people didn't get to play the game. And I suspect many here to do the same. EDIT: Also, about your argument: Almost every player that switched from SC2 did so because he didn't have success in SC2(anymore). SelecT did exactly the same thing. His point was that we don't have many new players in SCII in the sense that none have switched into it. We got more players that came with the KeSPA switch but we haven't heard much from others. I wasn't here in 2009 so I can't say much on what they were saying. Are you talking about the macro mechanics comments? Also, I played SCII a lot so I'm not just saying lol
Not only macro, people said there would be no micro. Basically that SC2 would be a skillless game nobody cares about.
Anyway. We DO have a lot of new players, it's just that they have to work their way through the top. Do you think new players in LoL and DotA2 instantly get attention and play in major tournaments?
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 15 2013 16:43 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 16:28 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 16:09 KeksX wrote:On October 15 2013 16:05 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 14:51 Xiphos wrote:On October 15 2013 14:34 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units. Xiphos is right. Once you get to late game with 5-6 bases and multiple inbase hatcheries, imagine having to go to each base and manually click on the hatchery then select the larvae and make units from it. Larva inject in a way simplifies the macro since even though you have to remember to inject larva, you get 7 larvae so that's 4 more larva than usual. With 3 bases, instead of 9 larva, you have 21 larva which is equivalent to 7 hatcheries lol. This doesn't include any inbase hatchery or more bases XD Creep spread adds to APM activity but I think someone mentioned its about 17 or so at best. Chronoboost can create some interesting timings but it's not a must aside from making probes out faster(and upgrades too for a timing attack). You can chronoboost from the minimap, same with larva inject which is what I used to do As an addendum, I've wrote a piece on SC2 vs BW zerg mechanics comparison here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370433 interesting. Still have to wonder why they banned you though? XD On October 15 2013 16:04 KeksX wrote:On October 15 2013 02:07 a176 wrote:
When was the last time a player switched to SC2? SelecT! On October 15 2013 15:33 Aiobhill wrote:On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units. This - I'm afraid - is the heart of the problem of SC2 as an e-sport. How many current SC2 viewers, current viewers of other e-sports and not-yet e-sports consumers really wanna watch for hours a game where building worker units marginally quicker often decides the match? Many times we have or had "top 10 moments" videos after tournaments. These strangely showed fighting unproportionally more often than creepspreading, muledropping or chronoboosting. Wierd isn't it? Apparently almost 100k for IEM NY, 100k+ for WCS EU and thousands of other for other tournaments. I can only repeat myself so many times: Stop making up stuff. "There's no micro in SC2" "Nobody wants to watch this" What is this, 2009?! Select came back to SCII after his move to LoL(or was it dota?) was unsuccessful so he doesn't qualify lol. As for the second comment, I think you missed his joke comment lol. Starcraft II wasn't released in 2009 >.> unless that was the joke lol. I'm referring to the fact that priot to SC2 release people posted the same stuff. Like, almost word for word. Thats why I said 2009, because people didn't get to play the game. And I suspect many here to do the same. EDIT: Also, about your argument: Almost every player that switched from SC2 did so because he didn't have success in SC2(anymore). SelecT did exactly the same thing. His point was that we don't have many new players in SCII in the sense that none have switched into it. We got more players that came with the KeSPA switch but we haven't heard much from others. I wasn't here in 2009 so I can't say much on what they were saying. Are you talking about the macro mechanics comments? Also, I played SCII a lot so I'm not just saying lol Not only macro, people said there would be no micro. Basically that SC2 would be a skillless game nobody cares about. Anyway. We DO have a lot of new players, it's just that they have to work their way through the top. Do you think new players in LoL and DotA2 instantly get attention and play in major tournaments?
well, you still have to admit that the level of micro in SCII isn't quite what people wanted. Even Jaedong himself was saying how in BW, he can win through micro alone but you can't in SCII(rare). Not sure where I stand on macro mechanics though lol. I think chronoboost is interesting, muling and inject larvae are too static since they are used on one thing meh.
As for new players, even in the last several months, only Sora comes to mind. Maybe there is someone else I'm not aware of. I've seen/heard of most of the other players and it's still mostly the top ESF and KeSPA who are playing and dominating.
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On October 15 2013 17:00 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 16:43 KeksX wrote:On October 15 2013 16:28 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 16:09 KeksX wrote:On October 15 2013 16:05 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 14:51 Xiphos wrote:On October 15 2013 14:34 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units. Xiphos is right. Once you get to late game with 5-6 bases and multiple inbase hatcheries, imagine having to go to each base and manually click on the hatchery then select the larvae and make units from it. Larva inject in a way simplifies the macro since even though you have to remember to inject larva, you get 7 larvae so that's 4 more larva than usual. With 3 bases, instead of 9 larva, you have 21 larva which is equivalent to 7 hatcheries lol. This doesn't include any inbase hatchery or more bases XD Creep spread adds to APM activity but I think someone mentioned its about 17 or so at best. Chronoboost can create some interesting timings but it's not a must aside from making probes out faster(and upgrades too for a timing attack). You can chronoboost from the minimap, same with larva inject which is what I used to do As an addendum, I've wrote a piece on SC2 vs BW zerg mechanics comparison here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370433 interesting. Still have to wonder why they banned you though? XD On October 15 2013 16:04 KeksX wrote:On October 15 2013 02:07 a176 wrote:
When was the last time a player switched to SC2? SelecT! On October 15 2013 15:33 Aiobhill wrote:On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units. This - I'm afraid - is the heart of the problem of SC2 as an e-sport. How many current SC2 viewers, current viewers of other e-sports and not-yet e-sports consumers really wanna watch for hours a game where building worker units marginally quicker often decides the match? Many times we have or had "top 10 moments" videos after tournaments. These strangely showed fighting unproportionally more often than creepspreading, muledropping or chronoboosting. Wierd isn't it? Apparently almost 100k for IEM NY, 100k+ for WCS EU and thousands of other for other tournaments. I can only repeat myself so many times: Stop making up stuff. "There's no micro in SC2" "Nobody wants to watch this" What is this, 2009?! Select came back to SCII after his move to LoL(or was it dota?) was unsuccessful so he doesn't qualify lol. As for the second comment, I think you missed his joke comment lol. Starcraft II wasn't released in 2009 >.> unless that was the joke lol. I'm referring to the fact that priot to SC2 release people posted the same stuff. Like, almost word for word. Thats why I said 2009, because people didn't get to play the game. And I suspect many here to do the same. EDIT: Also, about your argument: Almost every player that switched from SC2 did so because he didn't have success in SC2(anymore). SelecT did exactly the same thing. His point was that we don't have many new players in SCII in the sense that none have switched into it. We got more players that came with the KeSPA switch but we haven't heard much from others. I wasn't here in 2009 so I can't say much on what they were saying. Are you talking about the macro mechanics comments? Also, I played SCII a lot so I'm not just saying lol Not only macro, people said there would be no micro. Basically that SC2 would be a skillless game nobody cares about. Anyway. We DO have a lot of new players, it's just that they have to work their way through the top. Do you think new players in LoL and DotA2 instantly get attention and play in major tournaments? well, you still have to admit that the level of micro in SCII isn't quite what people wanted. Even Jaedong himself was saying how in BW, he can win through micro alone but you can't in SCII(rare). Not sure where I stand on macro mechanics though lol. I think chronoboost is interesting, muling and inject larvae are too static since they are used on one thing meh. As for new players, even in the last several months, only Sora comes to mind. Maybe there is someone else I'm not aware of. I've seen/heard of most of the other players and it's still mostly the top ESF and KeSPA who are playing and dominating.
In SC2, you have to be decent in micro (splitting / positionning / focus fire / spells) and decent in macro (no ressource stock piling, no supply block, no pause between upgrades) to win.
Players cant shine throught micro or macro, they shine because they are good in both.
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On October 15 2013 17:05 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 17:00 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 16:43 KeksX wrote:On October 15 2013 16:28 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 16:09 KeksX wrote:On October 15 2013 16:05 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 14:51 Xiphos wrote:On October 15 2013 14:34 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units. Xiphos is right. Once you get to late game with 5-6 bases and multiple inbase hatcheries, imagine having to go to each base and manually click on the hatchery then select the larvae and make units from it. Larva inject in a way simplifies the macro since even though you have to remember to inject larva, you get 7 larvae so that's 4 more larva than usual. With 3 bases, instead of 9 larva, you have 21 larva which is equivalent to 7 hatcheries lol. This doesn't include any inbase hatchery or more bases XD Creep spread adds to APM activity but I think someone mentioned its about 17 or so at best. Chronoboost can create some interesting timings but it's not a must aside from making probes out faster(and upgrades too for a timing attack). You can chronoboost from the minimap, same with larva inject which is what I used to do As an addendum, I've wrote a piece on SC2 vs BW zerg mechanics comparison here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370433 interesting. Still have to wonder why they banned you though? XD On October 15 2013 16:04 KeksX wrote:On October 15 2013 02:07 a176 wrote:
When was the last time a player switched to SC2? SelecT! On October 15 2013 15:33 Aiobhill wrote:On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units. This - I'm afraid - is the heart of the problem of SC2 as an e-sport. How many current SC2 viewers, current viewers of other e-sports and not-yet e-sports consumers really wanna watch for hours a game where building worker units marginally quicker often decides the match? Many times we have or had "top 10 moments" videos after tournaments. These strangely showed fighting unproportionally more often than creepspreading, muledropping or chronoboosting. Wierd isn't it? Apparently almost 100k for IEM NY, 100k+ for WCS EU and thousands of other for other tournaments. I can only repeat myself so many times: Stop making up stuff. "There's no micro in SC2" "Nobody wants to watch this" What is this, 2009?! Select came back to SCII after his move to LoL(or was it dota?) was unsuccessful so he doesn't qualify lol. As for the second comment, I think you missed his joke comment lol. Starcraft II wasn't released in 2009 >.> unless that was the joke lol. I'm referring to the fact that priot to SC2 release people posted the same stuff. Like, almost word for word. Thats why I said 2009, because people didn't get to play the game. And I suspect many here to do the same. EDIT: Also, about your argument: Almost every player that switched from SC2 did so because he didn't have success in SC2(anymore). SelecT did exactly the same thing. His point was that we don't have many new players in SCII in the sense that none have switched into it. We got more players that came with the KeSPA switch but we haven't heard much from others. I wasn't here in 2009 so I can't say much on what they were saying. Are you talking about the macro mechanics comments? Also, I played SCII a lot so I'm not just saying lol Not only macro, people said there would be no micro. Basically that SC2 would be a skillless game nobody cares about. Anyway. We DO have a lot of new players, it's just that they have to work their way through the top. Do you think new players in LoL and DotA2 instantly get attention and play in major tournaments? well, you still have to admit that the level of micro in SCII isn't quite what people wanted. Even Jaedong himself was saying how in BW, he can win through micro alone but you can't in SCII(rare). Not sure where I stand on macro mechanics though lol. I think chronoboost is interesting, muling and inject larvae are too static since they are used on one thing meh. As for new players, even in the last several months, only Sora comes to mind. Maybe there is someone else I'm not aware of. I've seen/heard of most of the other players and it's still mostly the top ESF and KeSPA who are playing and dominating. In SC2, you have to be decent in micro (splitting / positionning / focus fire / spells) and decent in macro (no ressource stock piling, no supply block, no pause between upgrades) to win. Players cant shine throught micro or macro, they shine because they are good in both.
Nah ... you also have to rely on your opponent to screw up to win. The perfect example is the Baneling, where the efficiency of the unit - in its ground based forms - depends largely on the opponent NOT splitting quickly enough or NOT detecting the landmines. Due to the "instant kill potential" of a bunch of Banelings they can literaly decide a game in a few seconds. That isnt an exciting way to lose, because you have to be VERY good AND look at your units at the right time ...
Your assumption is totally wrong for casual players, because you can win by simply producing more stuff than your opponent and then a-moving it into his base. I am terrible at SC2, but thats how I won a few games when I still played. The POTENTIAL for a huge production is simply a bad design decision for casuals, because you can never really tell when the switch from economy and buildup to mass production comes and then you lose because your opponent has wayy more stuff and due to the tight unit movement he can also kill your lower numbers far more easily due to the automatically maximized unit density.
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On October 15 2013 14:51 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 14:34 BigFan wrote:On October 15 2013 14:19 flashimba wrote:On October 15 2013 10:37 imBLIND wrote:
Magic boxing was also the reason why ground units clumped up and did stupid shit. It was an unintended glitch of the engine that created a limiting factor on how big of an army you're allowed to have; if you didn't micro all your control groups properly, your army wouldn't be any stronger than a well micro'd force smaller than yours.
Seeing pros move a giant army doesn't make you look in awe in SC2; what I see is "pfft I can do that too." And then people say "oh he's got a bunch of units," and everyone I know goes "he just does it 10 seconds quicker." Now I'm not inferring that there is no skill involved in SC2; what I'm saying is that there is no note-worthy skill in SC2 that is worth watching. What about larva inject, creep spread, chronoboost? Nothing like watching a good pro juggle these while pumping out a gazillion units. Xiphos is right. Once you get to late game with 5-6 bases and multiple inbase hatcheries, imagine having to go to each base and manually click on the hatchery then select the larvae and make units from it. Larva inject in a way simplifies the macro since even though you have to remember to inject larva, you get 7 larvae so that's 4 more larva than usual. With 3 bases, instead of 9 larva, you have 21 larva which is equivalent to 7 hatcheries lol. This doesn't include any inbase hatchery or more bases XD Creep spread adds to APM activity but I think someone mentioned its about 17 or so at best. Chronoboost can create some interesting timings but it's not a must aside from making probes out faster(and upgrades too for a timing attack). You can chronoboost from the minimap, same with larva inject which is what I used to do As an addendum, I've wrote a piece on SC2 vs BW zerg mechanics comparison here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370433
Why did you get temp banned for this post?
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Netherlands4511 Posts
I'd really like this thread to not keep popping up on the left side of the forum.
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@Rabiator:
Most of what you said is true for BW as well, though. I played casually and won 99% of my games because I simply overran my opponent with more units. I was never really good, though, so I don't know about high level play.
But I do know that in SC2, in high level play it's not that simple anymore.
I do agree, however, on another point:
Many tmes it's your opponent screwing up, not you winning. HOWEVER, in SC2, to make that more even, you can FORCE your opponent to screw up. Maybe while he spreads marines against your banelings, you snipe a medivac, or tanks, or buildings etc.
I also agree that SC2 has very different skillsets, even fewer in some regards compared to BW, but it is no "skillless ded gjaem".
As for new players:
Sora, Xenocider, a lot of koreans "coming out of their shell", Welmu has been pretty good and gets a lot better now. The problem is that people don't recognize "old players" getting better. For them its just reading COMPLETELY new names in big tournaments... This almost never happens in other games, and it won't happen in SC2.
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On October 15 2013 17:40 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I'd really like this thread to not keep popping up on the left side of the forum.
talk to the site owners and ask for 'ignore thread/poster' functionality
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On October 15 2013 17:44 KeksX wrote:
@Rabiator:
Most of what you said is true for BW as well, though. I played casually and won 99% of my games because I simply overran my opponent with more units. I was never really good, though, so I don't know about high level play.
But I do know that in SC2, in high level play it's not that simple anymore.
I do agree, however, on another point:
Many tmes it's your opponent screwing up, not you winning. HOWEVER, in SC2, to make that more even, you can FORCE your opponent to screw up. Maybe while he spreads marines against your banelings, you snipe a medivac, or tanks, or buildings etc.
I also agree that SC2 has very different skillsets, even fewer in some regards compared to BW, but it is no "skillless ded gjaem".
As for new players:
Sora, Xenocider, a lot of koreans "coming out of their shell", Welmu has been pretty good and gets a lot better now. The problem is that people don't recognize "old players" getting better. For them its just reading COMPLETELY new names in big tournaments... This almost never happens in other games, and it won't happen in SC2.
Obviously any "competitive resource management game" has to deal with the problem of potential mass production, BUT since SC2 has a far higher economy AND production boosts the swings from peaceful buildup to arms production are more drastic. In addition to this SC2 does not have a defenders advantage AND there are those "go around the defense" - stuff like Warp Gate or Reapers - or even the straight up bust with Banelings and this really screws up a lot of defensive potential. This makes SC2 far far FAR too much focused on the offensive side of the game.
BW was less economy and lower unit density and thus any sudden swing in production could be delayed by a few defensively minded units like Siege Tanks or Lurkers and gave you enough time to react. In SC2 you dont have that potential of a slow down, because of the automatically maximized unit density and the far too big efficiency against smaller numbers because of this.
----
EDIT: The key difference between BW and SC2 really is the "dosis" and SC2 has far too much of many things:
- unit density
- economy
- unit production
- unit "utility" (unlimited selection, smartcast, ..)
This all adds up to an unhealthy package which makes the game volatile and coinflippy. BW on the other hand had the UI limitations which slowed everything down to a manageable speed which was fair to both the attacker AND the defender.
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On October 15 2013 18:09 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 17:44 KeksX wrote:
@Rabiator:
Most of what you said is true for BW as well, though. I played casually and won 99% of my games because I simply overran my opponent with more units. I was never really good, though, so I don't know about high level play.
But I do know that in SC2, in high level play it's not that simple anymore.
I do agree, however, on another point:
Many tmes it's your opponent screwing up, not you winning. HOWEVER, in SC2, to make that more even, you can FORCE your opponent to screw up. Maybe while he spreads marines against your banelings, you snipe a medivac, or tanks, or buildings etc.
I also agree that SC2 has very different skillsets, even fewer in some regards compared to BW, but it is no "skillless ded gjaem".
As for new players:
Sora, Xenocider, a lot of koreans "coming out of their shell", Welmu has been pretty good and gets a lot better now. The problem is that people don't recognize "old players" getting better. For them its just reading COMPLETELY new names in big tournaments... This almost never happens in other games, and it won't happen in SC2. Obviously any "competitive resource management game" has to deal with the problem of potential mass production, BUT since SC2 has a far higher economy AND production boosts the swings from peaceful buildup to arms production are more drastic. In addition to this SC2 does not have a defenders advantage AND there are those "go around the defense" - stuff like Warp Gate or Reapers - or even the straight up bust with Banelings and this really screws up a lot of defensive potential. This makes SC2 far far FAR too much focused on the offensive side of the game. BW was less economy and lower unit density and thus any sudden swing in production could be delayed by a few defensively minded units like Siege Tanks or Lurkers and gave you enough time to react. In SC2 you dont have that potential of a slow down, because of the automatically maximized unit density and the far too big efficiency against smaller numbers because of this. ---- EDIT: The key difference between BW and SC2 really is the "dosis" and SC2 has far too much of many things: - unit density - economy - unit production - unit "utility" (unlimited selection, smartcast, ..) This all adds up to an unhealthy package which makes the game volatile and coinflippy. BW on the other hand had the UI limitations which slowed everything down to a manageable speed which was fair to both the attacker AND the defender.
I cant really agree on your point that sc2 has problem with the army buildup being too drastic. terran and protoss should build army all the time and zerg has the larva to react to sudden attacks. If you wanna blame the game that you cant be even greedier than you are right now, well thats kinda redundant, there is always a point where you have to make some units^^
I also hate that people bring up the volatile aspect every time, it maybe is more volatile than BW, but it isnt volatile enough to completely destroy the competition, as you can see in nearly every tournament, the best players always get far.
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On October 15 2013 19:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 18:09 Rabiator wrote:On October 15 2013 17:44 KeksX wrote:
@Rabiator:
Most of what you said is true for BW as well, though. I played casually and won 99% of my games because I simply overran my opponent with more units. I was never really good, though, so I don't know about high level play.
But I do know that in SC2, in high level play it's not that simple anymore.
I do agree, however, on another point:
Many tmes it's your opponent screwing up, not you winning. HOWEVER, in SC2, to make that more even, you can FORCE your opponent to screw up. Maybe while he spreads marines against your banelings, you snipe a medivac, or tanks, or buildings etc.
I also agree that SC2 has very different skillsets, even fewer in some regards compared to BW, but it is no "skillless ded gjaem".
As for new players:
Sora, Xenocider, a lot of koreans "coming out of their shell", Welmu has been pretty good and gets a lot better now. The problem is that people don't recognize "old players" getting better. For them its just reading COMPLETELY new names in big tournaments... This almost never happens in other games, and it won't happen in SC2. Obviously any "competitive resource management game" has to deal with the problem of potential mass production, BUT since SC2 has a far higher economy AND production boosts the swings from peaceful buildup to arms production are more drastic. In addition to this SC2 does not have a defenders advantage AND there are those "go around the defense" - stuff like Warp Gate or Reapers - or even the straight up bust with Banelings and this really screws up a lot of defensive potential. This makes SC2 far far FAR too much focused on the offensive side of the game. BW was less economy and lower unit density and thus any sudden swing in production could be delayed by a few defensively minded units like Siege Tanks or Lurkers and gave you enough time to react. In SC2 you dont have that potential of a slow down, because of the automatically maximized unit density and the far too big efficiency against smaller numbers because of this. ---- EDIT: The key difference between BW and SC2 really is the "dosis" and SC2 has far too much of many things: - unit density - economy - unit production - unit "utility" (unlimited selection, smartcast, ..) This all adds up to an unhealthy package which makes the game volatile and coinflippy. BW on the other hand had the UI limitations which slowed everything down to a manageable speed which was fair to both the attacker AND the defender. I cant really agree on your point that sc2 has problem with the army buildup being too drastic. terran and protoss should build army all the time and zerg has the larva to react to sudden attacks. If you wanna blame the game that you cant be even greedier than you are right now, well thats kinda redundant, there is always a point where you have to make some units^^ I also hate that people bring up the volatile aspect every time, it maybe is more volatile than BW, but it isnt volatile enough to completely destroy the competition, as you can see in nearly every tournament, the best players always get far.
You only think as a SPECTATOR and not as a player. Volatility is a HUGE problem for casuals, because it makes the game not fun to play. You absolutely need a huge fanbase for a game as the long term basis of an eSport.
If you ever get a Protoss warping in lots of units in your own base you will know what is meant with "too much volatility". As a professional you can deal with it, but casuals wont be.
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On October 15 2013 19:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 18:09 Rabiator wrote:On October 15 2013 17:44 KeksX wrote:
@Rabiator:
Most of what you said is true for BW as well, though. I played casually and won 99% of my games because I simply overran my opponent with more units. I was never really good, though, so I don't know about high level play.
But I do know that in SC2, in high level play it's not that simple anymore.
I do agree, however, on another point:
Many tmes it's your opponent screwing up, not you winning. HOWEVER, in SC2, to make that more even, you can FORCE your opponent to screw up. Maybe while he spreads marines against your banelings, you snipe a medivac, or tanks, or buildings etc.
I also agree that SC2 has very different skillsets, even fewer in some regards compared to BW, but it is no "skillless ded gjaem".
As for new players:
Sora, Xenocider, a lot of koreans "coming out of their shell", Welmu has been pretty good and gets a lot better now. The problem is that people don't recognize "old players" getting better. For them its just reading COMPLETELY new names in big tournaments... This almost never happens in other games, and it won't happen in SC2. Obviously any "competitive resource management game" has to deal with the problem of potential mass production, BUT since SC2 has a far higher economy AND production boosts the swings from peaceful buildup to arms production are more drastic. In addition to this SC2 does not have a defenders advantage AND there are those "go around the defense" - stuff like Warp Gate or Reapers - or even the straight up bust with Banelings and this really screws up a lot of defensive potential. This makes SC2 far far FAR too much focused on the offensive side of the game. BW was less economy and lower unit density and thus any sudden swing in production could be delayed by a few defensively minded units like Siege Tanks or Lurkers and gave you enough time to react. In SC2 you dont have that potential of a slow down, because of the automatically maximized unit density and the far too big efficiency against smaller numbers because of this. ---- EDIT: The key difference between BW and SC2 really is the "dosis" and SC2 has far too much of many things: - unit density - economy - unit production - unit "utility" (unlimited selection, smartcast, ..) This all adds up to an unhealthy package which makes the game volatile and coinflippy. BW on the other hand had the UI limitations which slowed everything down to a manageable speed which was fair to both the attacker AND the defender. I cant really agree on your point that sc2 has problem with the army buildup being too drastic. terran and protoss should build army all the time and zerg has the larva to react to sudden attacks. If you wanna blame the game that you cant be even greedier than you are right now, well thats kinda redundant, there is always a point where you have to make some units^^ I also hate that people bring up the volatile aspect every time, it maybe is more volatile than BW, but it isnt volatile enough to completely destroy the competition, as you can see in nearly every tournament, the best players always get far.
Brood War doesn't have the 12 minute roach max. I think it's a degenerate strategy: focus purely on economy and then purely on army, attack at maximum supply. It's a strategy not befitting a so-called strategy game, because it's the most simplistic one you could possibly think of. And it's all because zerg has so much production power to turn towards either economy or army, they have no limitations. It might not be imbalanced, but there is no strategic depth to it and it's quite sad that it's such a viable way to play.
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On October 15 2013 19:43 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 19:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 15 2013 18:09 Rabiator wrote:On October 15 2013 17:44 KeksX wrote:
@Rabiator:
Most of what you said is true for BW as well, though. I played casually and won 99% of my games because I simply overran my opponent with more units. I was never really good, though, so I don't know about high level play.
But I do know that in SC2, in high level play it's not that simple anymore.
I do agree, however, on another point:
Many tmes it's your opponent screwing up, not you winning. HOWEVER, in SC2, to make that more even, you can FORCE your opponent to screw up. Maybe while he spreads marines against your banelings, you snipe a medivac, or tanks, or buildings etc.
I also agree that SC2 has very different skillsets, even fewer in some regards compared to BW, but it is no "skillless ded gjaem".
As for new players:
Sora, Xenocider, a lot of koreans "coming out of their shell", Welmu has been pretty good and gets a lot better now. The problem is that people don't recognize "old players" getting better. For them its just reading COMPLETELY new names in big tournaments... This almost never happens in other games, and it won't happen in SC2. Obviously any "competitive resource management game" has to deal with the problem of potential mass production, BUT since SC2 has a far higher economy AND production boosts the swings from peaceful buildup to arms production are more drastic. In addition to this SC2 does not have a defenders advantage AND there are those "go around the defense" - stuff like Warp Gate or Reapers - or even the straight up bust with Banelings and this really screws up a lot of defensive potential. This makes SC2 far far FAR too much focused on the offensive side of the game. BW was less economy and lower unit density and thus any sudden swing in production could be delayed by a few defensively minded units like Siege Tanks or Lurkers and gave you enough time to react. In SC2 you dont have that potential of a slow down, because of the automatically maximized unit density and the far too big efficiency against smaller numbers because of this. ---- EDIT: The key difference between BW and SC2 really is the "dosis" and SC2 has far too much of many things: - unit density - economy - unit production - unit "utility" (unlimited selection, smartcast, ..) This all adds up to an unhealthy package which makes the game volatile and coinflippy. BW on the other hand had the UI limitations which slowed everything down to a manageable speed which was fair to both the attacker AND the defender. I cant really agree on your point that sc2 has problem with the army buildup being too drastic. terran and protoss should build army all the time and zerg has the larva to react to sudden attacks. If you wanna blame the game that you cant be even greedier than you are right now, well thats kinda redundant, there is always a point where you have to make some units^^ I also hate that people bring up the volatile aspect every time, it maybe is more volatile than BW, but it isnt volatile enough to completely destroy the competition, as you can see in nearly every tournament, the best players always get far. You only think as a SPECTATOR and not as a player. Volatility is a HUGE problem for casuals, because it makes the game not fun to play. You absolutely need a huge fanbase for a game as the long term basis of an eSport. If you ever get a Protoss warping in lots of units in your own base you will know what is meant with "too much volatility". As a professional you can deal with it, but casuals wont be.
I dont agree on that either. The good (but also bad) thing about sc2 is the matchmaking. You will only play vs opponents who are on your skillevel. Therefore its always pretty even, cause the opponent is just as bad as you to use "the volatile" aspects of the game. The bad thing about that is that you will always lose around 50% of your matches and that is just unfun for casuals (here: ladder anxienty). I think thats the biggest reason sc2 doesnt have much players, people dont like to lose 50% of the time, when there is nobody else to blame for except yourself.
On October 15 2013 19:46 Grumbels wrote:
Brood War doesn't have the 12 minute roach max. I think it's a degenerate strategy: focus purely on economy and then purely on army, attack at maximum supply. It's a strategy not befitting a so-called strategy game, because it's the most simplistic one you could possibly think of. And it's all because zerg has so much production power to turn towards either economy or army, they have no limitations. It might not be imbalanced, but there is no strategic depth to it and it's quite sad that it's such a viable way to play.
The zerg can only do that if the opponent doesnt harass at all. If you dont get pressured, why should u build units? If you dont lose drones, ofc you can hit such a timing, thats more the fault of the opponent though.
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On October 15 2013 19:46 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 19:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 15 2013 18:09 Rabiator wrote:On October 15 2013 17:44 KeksX wrote:
@Rabiator:
Most of what you said is true for BW as well, though. I played casually and won 99% of my games because I simply overran my opponent with more units. I was never really good, though, so I don't know about high level play.
But I do know that in SC2, in high level play it's not that simple anymore.
I do agree, however, on another point:
Many tmes it's your opponent screwing up, not you winning. HOWEVER, in SC2, to make that more even, you can FORCE your opponent to screw up. Maybe while he spreads marines against your banelings, you snipe a medivac, or tanks, or buildings etc.
I also agree that SC2 has very different skillsets, even fewer in some regards compared to BW, but it is no "skillless ded gjaem".
As for new players:
Sora, Xenocider, a lot of koreans "coming out of their shell", Welmu has been pretty good and gets a lot better now. The problem is that people don't recognize "old players" getting better. For them its just reading COMPLETELY new names in big tournaments... This almost never happens in other games, and it won't happen in SC2. Obviously any "competitive resource management game" has to deal with the problem of potential mass production, BUT since SC2 has a far higher economy AND production boosts the swings from peaceful buildup to arms production are more drastic. In addition to this SC2 does not have a defenders advantage AND there are those "go around the defense" - stuff like Warp Gate or Reapers - or even the straight up bust with Banelings and this really screws up a lot of defensive potential. This makes SC2 far far FAR too much focused on the offensive side of the game. BW was less economy and lower unit density and thus any sudden swing in production could be delayed by a few defensively minded units like Siege Tanks or Lurkers and gave you enough time to react. In SC2 you dont have that potential of a slow down, because of the automatically maximized unit density and the far too big efficiency against smaller numbers because of this. ---- EDIT: The key difference between BW and SC2 really is the "dosis" and SC2 has far too much of many things: - unit density - economy - unit production - unit "utility" (unlimited selection, smartcast, ..) This all adds up to an unhealthy package which makes the game volatile and coinflippy. BW on the other hand had the UI limitations which slowed everything down to a manageable speed which was fair to both the attacker AND the defender. I cant really agree on your point that sc2 has problem with the army buildup being too drastic. terran and protoss should build army all the time and zerg has the larva to react to sudden attacks. If you wanna blame the game that you cant be even greedier than you are right now, well thats kinda redundant, there is always a point where you have to make some units^^ I also hate that people bring up the volatile aspect every time, it maybe is more volatile than BW, but it isnt volatile enough to completely destroy the competition, as you can see in nearly every tournament, the best players always get far. Brood War doesn't have the 12 minute roach max. I think it's a degenerate strategy: focus purely on economy and then purely on army, attack at maximum supply. It's a strategy not befitting a so-called strategy game, because it's the most simplistic one you could possibly think of. And it's all because zerg has so much production power to turn towards either economy or army, they have no limitations. It might not be imbalanced, but there is no strategic depth to it and it's quite sad that it's such a viable way to play.
And HotS doesn't have it either.
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On October 15 2013 17:40 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I'd really like this thread to not keep popping up on the left side of the forum.
Its easy to fix. Just go to "Site Setings" (just below Liquibets) and remove SC2 from being active. No more this thread appearing at left side of the forum.
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EPT
