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On October 14 2013 21:32 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 21:23 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:51 Chaggi wrote:On October 14 2013 20:44 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:17 RampancyTW wrote:On October 14 2013 19:47 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 18:57 ReMinD_ wrote:
I don't think SC2 is easy. It is too easy to play a good game. The most difficult part is winning the game. You can lose your games although you played very very well. I dont feel the difference if I win or lose the game, because I got a unexpected win or unexpected lose. Too many things happened suddenly and unexpected, even you scouted very well. FF and fungal prevent you to micro your units. Build orders should have a lot lesser value to decide the game. This is because you're bad at the game, and don't recognize the difference between "playing well" and "outplaying your opponent." In fact, this entire mentality is pretty much the number one complaint about SC2 in this thread. "The game is random because my opponent beat me and I can't accept that he was better than me that game! Make it more like BW!" Yeah tell me how it isnt unexpected if you P melted Z easily a fight , then Zerg popped suddenly 17 ultras (strong macro I know lol) to outplay me (if you see the 17 Ultras, you cant react and make 3 or more immortals at one time, there no time there to have a nice number of immortals). I was Zerg in sc2 WoL since Release, in HotS I switched to Random to understand many many unexpected things better, but this hasnt worked and I love to play Random more than only Zerg. "suddenly" -> 55 seconds 5,100 minerals and 3,400 gas banked. Do you see how retarded your example is? If the Zerg has that big of a bank, and is making a counter to you with that much resources, you deserve to lose. This game isn't NR20. You know nothing about the 55sec. It can come 200sup pure roaches (hide somewhere until he has 200/200) or suddenly 17 ultras came out of the eggs. and the big bank isnt uncommon, I see it nearly everytime if PvZ goes into a macro-game at highest level. a 55 seconds when: you still have a huge army (you said your army melt zerg's easily), zerg building 17 ultras (which is102 supply along with 70 supply of drones, only 28 supply worth of unit to defend anything along with spines and spores) You are telling me you can't snipe at least 3 of his base while getting void rays or colossus or archons????
No he can't, because he is too far behind at this point. But instead of watching a replay and improving his play he rather whines about the game because "supplies were 200 vs 200 before we traded armies; that he had 6bases to my 1mining one and 5k3k bank to my 1k/0.5k is totally irelevant, because it's standard for zerg to have the whole map and is not him outplaying me."
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On October 14 2013 21:35 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 18:23 Elroi wrote:Jaedong said in an interview that he thought sc2 was harder than BW because in BW he could just micro his units and win, which he can't in sc2 because of the lack of micro potential. zvz in the beginning of hots felt BW-esque. I was very sad that they nerfed it to the stale mu that it is today. (For example, I can't imagine a worse game than soO vs Soulkey code S ro 4 game two: http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs3/vod/80872. They basically rally roaches back and forth from minute 6 until the end of the game 10 minutes later.) Well, when SC2 WoL beta was running, I think it was ret that was infamous for saying there was no micro in SC2. I think people were bashing him for this opinion.
I hate hyperbole like this though. Obviously there is micro involved in battles, I agree that positional and tactical awareness is more important.
To say 'micro doesn't matter' in SC2 however is just plain wrong.
The reason why micro was so important in BW was because of the bad AI design. That will never be replicated so may as well stop talking about it.
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On October 14 2013 22:03 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 21:35 darkness wrote:On October 14 2013 18:23 Elroi wrote:Jaedong said in an interview that he thought sc2 was harder than BW because in BW he could just micro his units and win, which he can't in sc2 because of the lack of micro potential. zvz in the beginning of hots felt BW-esque. I was very sad that they nerfed it to the stale mu that it is today. (For example, I can't imagine a worse game than soO vs Soulkey code S ro 4 game two: http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs3/vod/80872. They basically rally roaches back and forth from minute 6 until the end of the game 10 minutes later.) Well, when SC2 WoL beta was running, I think it was ret that was infamous for saying there was no micro in SC2. I think people were bashing him for this opinion. I hate hyperbole like this though. Obviously there is micro involved in battles, I agree that positional and tactical awareness is more important. To say 'micro doesn't matter' in SC2 however is just plain wrong. The reason why micro was so important in BW was because of the bad AI design. That will never be replicated so may as well stop talking about it.
Jaedong disagrees with you.
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while they still had the Archon toilet
aaaaah good old days, I do some WOL ladder sometimes just to go for a good old archon toilet. This was broken but was the most fun thing to execute in the whole game. Seeing your archons running like happy blobs into the vortex was so cool. I recieved a lot of : "-_-" for that!
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On October 14 2013 22:16 klup wrote:aaaaah good old days, I do some WOL ladder sometimes just to go for a good old archon toilet. This was broken but was the most fun thing to execute in the whole game. Seeing your archons running like happy blobs into the vortex was so cool. I recieved a lot of : "-_-" for that!
Yeah, it's as funny as watching puppies die in a fire -_-
Archon Toilet was the sole reason PvZ was so lame to watch.
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Broodfestor nonsense obv had nothing to do with it.
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On October 14 2013 22:22 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 22:16 klup wrote:while they still had the Archon toilet aaaaah good old days, I do some WOL ladder sometimes just to go for a good old archon toilet. This was broken but was the most fun thing to execute in the whole game. Seeing your archons running like happy blobs into the vortex was so cool. I recieved a lot of : "-_-" for that! Yeah, it's as funny as watching puppies die in a fire -_- Archon Toilet was the sole reason PvZ was so lame to watch.
No? Broodlord + Infestor was the sole reason every lategame in the end of WoL was so lame to watch.
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On October 14 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 21:32 ETisME wrote:On October 14 2013 21:23 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:51 Chaggi wrote:On October 14 2013 20:44 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:17 RampancyTW wrote:On October 14 2013 19:47 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 18:57 ReMinD_ wrote:
I don't think SC2 is easy. It is too easy to play a good game. The most difficult part is winning the game. You can lose your games although you played very very well. I dont feel the difference if I win or lose the game, because I got a unexpected win or unexpected lose. Too many things happened suddenly and unexpected, even you scouted very well. FF and fungal prevent you to micro your units. Build orders should have a lot lesser value to decide the game. This is because you're bad at the game, and don't recognize the difference between "playing well" and "outplaying your opponent." In fact, this entire mentality is pretty much the number one complaint about SC2 in this thread. "The game is random because my opponent beat me and I can't accept that he was better than me that game! Make it more like BW!" Yeah tell me how it isnt unexpected if you P melted Z easily a fight , then Zerg popped suddenly 17 ultras (strong macro I know lol) to outplay me (if you see the 17 Ultras, you cant react and make 3 or more immortals at one time, there no time there to have a nice number of immortals). I was Zerg in sc2 WoL since Release, in HotS I switched to Random to understand many many unexpected things better, but this hasnt worked and I love to play Random more than only Zerg. "suddenly" -> 55 seconds 5,100 minerals and 3,400 gas banked. Do you see how retarded your example is? If the Zerg has that big of a bank, and is making a counter to you with that much resources, you deserve to lose. This game isn't NR20. You know nothing about the 55sec. It can come 200sup pure roaches (hide somewhere until he has 200/200) or suddenly 17 ultras came out of the eggs. and the big bank isnt uncommon, I see it nearly everytime if PvZ goes into a macro-game at highest level. a 55 seconds when: you still have a huge army (you said your army melt zerg's easily), zerg building 17 ultras (which is102 supply along with 70 supply of drones, only 28 supply worth of unit to defend anything along with spines and spores) You are telling me you can't snipe at least 3 of his base while getting void rays or colossus or archons???? No he can't, because he is too far behind at this point. But instead of watching a replay and improving his play he rather whines about the game because "supplies were 200 vs 200 before we traded armies; that he had 6bases to my 1mining one and 5k3k bank to my 1k/0.5k is totally irelevant, because it's standard for zerg to have the whole map and is not him outplaying me."
Again, I dont care if I outplay my opponent or reverse. I just dont like the many unexpected things in sc2. This game was just a example. It just feel like it was luck, and if it was luck then i dont enjoy that I won or it was correct that I lost.
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On October 14 2013 22:36 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:On October 14 2013 21:32 ETisME wrote:On October 14 2013 21:23 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:51 Chaggi wrote:On October 14 2013 20:44 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:17 RampancyTW wrote:On October 14 2013 19:47 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 18:57 ReMinD_ wrote:
I don't think SC2 is easy. It is too easy to play a good game. The most difficult part is winning the game. You can lose your games although you played very very well. I dont feel the difference if I win or lose the game, because I got a unexpected win or unexpected lose. Too many things happened suddenly and unexpected, even you scouted very well. FF and fungal prevent you to micro your units. Build orders should have a lot lesser value to decide the game. This is because you're bad at the game, and don't recognize the difference between "playing well" and "outplaying your opponent." In fact, this entire mentality is pretty much the number one complaint about SC2 in this thread. "The game is random because my opponent beat me and I can't accept that he was better than me that game! Make it more like BW!" Yeah tell me how it isnt unexpected if you P melted Z easily a fight , then Zerg popped suddenly 17 ultras (strong macro I know lol) to outplay me (if you see the 17 Ultras, you cant react and make 3 or more immortals at one time, there no time there to have a nice number of immortals). I was Zerg in sc2 WoL since Release, in HotS I switched to Random to understand many many unexpected things better, but this hasnt worked and I love to play Random more than only Zerg. "suddenly" -> 55 seconds 5,100 minerals and 3,400 gas banked. Do you see how retarded your example is? If the Zerg has that big of a bank, and is making a counter to you with that much resources, you deserve to lose. This game isn't NR20. You know nothing about the 55sec. It can come 200sup pure roaches (hide somewhere until he has 200/200) or suddenly 17 ultras came out of the eggs. and the big bank isnt uncommon, I see it nearly everytime if PvZ goes into a macro-game at highest level. a 55 seconds when: you still have a huge army (you said your army melt zerg's easily), zerg building 17 ultras (which is102 supply along with 70 supply of drones, only 28 supply worth of unit to defend anything along with spines and spores) You are telling me you can't snipe at least 3 of his base while getting void rays or colossus or archons???? No he can't, because he is too far behind at this point. But instead of watching a replay and improving his play he rather whines about the game because "supplies were 200 vs 200 before we traded armies; that he had 6bases to my 1mining one and 5k3k bank to my 1k/0.5k is totally irelevant, because it's standard for zerg to have the whole map and is not him outplaying me." Again, I dont care if I outplay my opponent or reverse. I just dont like the many unexpected things in sc2. This game was just a example. It just feel like it was luck, and if it was luck then i dont enjoy that I won or it was correct that I lost.
Then playing a game with fog of war and no/incomplete information about an opponents production queue is just the wrong place for you.
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On October 14 2013 22:36 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:On October 14 2013 21:32 ETisME wrote:On October 14 2013 21:23 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:51 Chaggi wrote:On October 14 2013 20:44 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:17 RampancyTW wrote:On October 14 2013 19:47 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 18:57 ReMinD_ wrote:
I don't think SC2 is easy. It is too easy to play a good game. The most difficult part is winning the game. You can lose your games although you played very very well. I dont feel the difference if I win or lose the game, because I got a unexpected win or unexpected lose. Too many things happened suddenly and unexpected, even you scouted very well. FF and fungal prevent you to micro your units. Build orders should have a lot lesser value to decide the game. This is because you're bad at the game, and don't recognize the difference between "playing well" and "outplaying your opponent." In fact, this entire mentality is pretty much the number one complaint about SC2 in this thread. "The game is random because my opponent beat me and I can't accept that he was better than me that game! Make it more like BW!" Yeah tell me how it isnt unexpected if you P melted Z easily a fight , then Zerg popped suddenly 17 ultras (strong macro I know lol) to outplay me (if you see the 17 Ultras, you cant react and make 3 or more immortals at one time, there no time there to have a nice number of immortals). I was Zerg in sc2 WoL since Release, in HotS I switched to Random to understand many many unexpected things better, but this hasnt worked and I love to play Random more than only Zerg. "suddenly" -> 55 seconds 5,100 minerals and 3,400 gas banked. Do you see how retarded your example is? If the Zerg has that big of a bank, and is making a counter to you with that much resources, you deserve to lose. This game isn't NR20. You know nothing about the 55sec. It can come 200sup pure roaches (hide somewhere until he has 200/200) or suddenly 17 ultras came out of the eggs. and the big bank isnt uncommon, I see it nearly everytime if PvZ goes into a macro-game at highest level. a 55 seconds when: you still have a huge army (you said your army melt zerg's easily), zerg building 17 ultras (which is102 supply along with 70 supply of drones, only 28 supply worth of unit to defend anything along with spines and spores) You are telling me you can't snipe at least 3 of his base while getting void rays or colossus or archons???? No he can't, because he is too far behind at this point. But instead of watching a replay and improving his play he rather whines about the game because "supplies were 200 vs 200 before we traded armies; that he had 6bases to my 1mining one and 5k3k bank to my 1k/0.5k is totally irelevant, because it's standard for zerg to have the whole map and is not him outplaying me." Again, I dont care if I outplay my opponent or reverse. I just dont like the many unexpected things in sc2. This game was just a example. It just feel like it was luck, and if it was luck then i dont enjoy that I won or it was correct that I lost.
I dont get why it would be luck. It is luck cause you dont scout properly? I mean the same could be said if you had 3 starports in your base and suddenly show up with 9 carriers, srsly what a stupid argument.
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On October 14 2013 22:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 22:36 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:On October 14 2013 21:32 ETisME wrote:On October 14 2013 21:23 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:51 Chaggi wrote:On October 14 2013 20:44 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:17 RampancyTW wrote:On October 14 2013 19:47 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 18:57 ReMinD_ wrote:
I don't think SC2 is easy. It is too easy to play a good game. The most difficult part is winning the game. You can lose your games although you played very very well. I dont feel the difference if I win or lose the game, because I got a unexpected win or unexpected lose. Too many things happened suddenly and unexpected, even you scouted very well. FF and fungal prevent you to micro your units. Build orders should have a lot lesser value to decide the game. This is because you're bad at the game, and don't recognize the difference between "playing well" and "outplaying your opponent." In fact, this entire mentality is pretty much the number one complaint about SC2 in this thread. "The game is random because my opponent beat me and I can't accept that he was better than me that game! Make it more like BW!" Yeah tell me how it isnt unexpected if you P melted Z easily a fight , then Zerg popped suddenly 17 ultras (strong macro I know lol) to outplay me (if you see the 17 Ultras, you cant react and make 3 or more immortals at one time, there no time there to have a nice number of immortals). I was Zerg in sc2 WoL since Release, in HotS I switched to Random to understand many many unexpected things better, but this hasnt worked and I love to play Random more than only Zerg. "suddenly" -> 55 seconds 5,100 minerals and 3,400 gas banked. Do you see how retarded your example is? If the Zerg has that big of a bank, and is making a counter to you with that much resources, you deserve to lose. This game isn't NR20. You know nothing about the 55sec. It can come 200sup pure roaches (hide somewhere until he has 200/200) or suddenly 17 ultras came out of the eggs. and the big bank isnt uncommon, I see it nearly everytime if PvZ goes into a macro-game at highest level. a 55 seconds when: you still have a huge army (you said your army melt zerg's easily), zerg building 17 ultras (which is102 supply along with 70 supply of drones, only 28 supply worth of unit to defend anything along with spines and spores) You are telling me you can't snipe at least 3 of his base while getting void rays or colossus or archons???? No he can't, because he is too far behind at this point. But instead of watching a replay and improving his play he rather whines about the game because "supplies were 200 vs 200 before we traded armies; that he had 6bases to my 1mining one and 5k3k bank to my 1k/0.5k is totally irelevant, because it's standard for zerg to have the whole map and is not him outplaying me." Again, I dont care if I outplay my opponent or reverse. I just dont like the many unexpected things in sc2. This game was just a example. It just feel like it was luck, and if it was luck then i dont enjoy that I won or it was correct that I lost. I dont get why it would be luck. It is luck cause you dont scout properly? I mean the same could be said if you had 3 starports in your base and suddenly show up with 9 carriers, srsly what a stupid argument.
properly scout doesnt work. If you scout properly then you only see 17eggs, nothing more. It can be 17 roaches or 17 corrupters or whatever.
I am sure Jaedong won vs MC and Oz because he was able to built ~50 mutas at once. How to react properly?
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On October 14 2013 22:49 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 22:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 14 2013 22:36 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:On October 14 2013 21:32 ETisME wrote:On October 14 2013 21:23 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:51 Chaggi wrote:On October 14 2013 20:44 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:17 RampancyTW wrote:On October 14 2013 19:47 Dingodile wrote:
[quote]
It is too easy to play a good game. The most difficult part is winning the game. You can lose your games although you played very very well. I dont feel the difference if I win or lose the game, because I got a unexpected win or unexpected lose.
Too many things happened suddenly and unexpected, even you scouted very well. FF and fungal prevent you to micro your units. Build orders should have a lot lesser value to decide the game. This is because you're bad at the game, and don't recognize the difference between "playing well" and "outplaying your opponent." In fact, this entire mentality is pretty much the number one complaint about SC2 in this thread. "The game is random because my opponent beat me and I can't accept that he was better than me that game! Make it more like BW!" Yeah tell me how it isnt unexpected if you P melted Z easily a fight , then Zerg popped suddenly 17 ultras (strong macro I know lol) to outplay me (if you see the 17 Ultras, you cant react and make 3 or more immortals at one time, there no time there to have a nice number of immortals). I was Zerg in sc2 WoL since Release, in HotS I switched to Random to understand many many unexpected things better, but this hasnt worked and I love to play Random more than only Zerg. "suddenly" -> 55 seconds 5,100 minerals and 3,400 gas banked. Do you see how retarded your example is? If the Zerg has that big of a bank, and is making a counter to you with that much resources, you deserve to lose. This game isn't NR20. You know nothing about the 55sec. It can come 200sup pure roaches (hide somewhere until he has 200/200) or suddenly 17 ultras came out of the eggs. and the big bank isnt uncommon, I see it nearly everytime if PvZ goes into a macro-game at highest level. a 55 seconds when: you still have a huge army (you said your army melt zerg's easily), zerg building 17 ultras (which is102 supply along with 70 supply of drones, only 28 supply worth of unit to defend anything along with spines and spores) You are telling me you can't snipe at least 3 of his base while getting void rays or colossus or archons???? No he can't, because he is too far behind at this point. But instead of watching a replay and improving his play he rather whines about the game because "supplies were 200 vs 200 before we traded armies; that he had 6bases to my 1mining one and 5k3k bank to my 1k/0.5k is totally irelevant, because it's standard for zerg to have the whole map and is not him outplaying me." Again, I dont care if I outplay my opponent or reverse. I just dont like the many unexpected things in sc2. This game was just a example. It just feel like it was luck, and if it was luck then i dont enjoy that I won or it was correct that I lost. I dont get why it would be luck. It is luck cause you dont scout properly? I mean the same could be said if you had 3 starports in your base and suddenly show up with 9 carriers, srsly what a stupid argument. properly scout doesnt work. If you scout properly then you only see 17eggs, nothing more. It can be 17 roaches or 17 corrupters or whatever. I am sure Jaedong won vs MC and Oz because he was able to built ~50 mutas at once. How to react properly?
Depends on the situation you are in.
If you have a solid army, you build units like VRs/Archons that are extremly useful against whatever he builds.
If you don't have a solid army, you are in a situation in which you have already lost and your question is the same as a zerg asking "so I got 70drones and 5queens vs 20gateway units that are in my natural and 40workers. How should I react?" Well you don't, you have manouvered yourself into a helpless situation and just because the supply tab told you "it's even" it really isn't.
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On October 14 2013 22:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 22:49 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 22:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 14 2013 22:36 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:On October 14 2013 21:32 ETisME wrote:On October 14 2013 21:23 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:51 Chaggi wrote:On October 14 2013 20:44 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:17 RampancyTW wrote:
[quote]This is because you're bad at the game, and don't recognize the difference between "playing well" and "outplaying your opponent."
In fact, this entire mentality is pretty much the number one complaint about SC2 in this thread. "The game is random because my opponent beat me and I can't accept that he was better than me that game! Make it more like BW!"
Yeah tell me how it isnt unexpected if you P melted Z easily a fight , then Zerg popped suddenly 17 ultras (strong macro I know lol) to outplay me (if you see the 17 Ultras, you cant react and make 3 or more immortals at one time, there no time there to have a nice number of immortals). I was Zerg in sc2 WoL since Release, in HotS I switched to Random to understand many many unexpected things better, but this hasnt worked and I love to play Random more than only Zerg. "suddenly" -> 55 seconds 5,100 minerals and 3,400 gas banked. Do you see how retarded your example is? If the Zerg has that big of a bank, and is making a counter to you with that much resources, you deserve to lose. This game isn't NR20. You know nothing about the 55sec. It can come 200sup pure roaches (hide somewhere until he has 200/200) or suddenly 17 ultras came out of the eggs. and the big bank isnt uncommon, I see it nearly everytime if PvZ goes into a macro-game at highest level. a 55 seconds when: you still have a huge army (you said your army melt zerg's easily), zerg building 17 ultras (which is102 supply along with 70 supply of drones, only 28 supply worth of unit to defend anything along with spines and spores) You are telling me you can't snipe at least 3 of his base while getting void rays or colossus or archons???? No he can't, because he is too far behind at this point. But instead of watching a replay and improving his play he rather whines about the game because "supplies were 200 vs 200 before we traded armies; that he had 6bases to my 1mining one and 5k3k bank to my 1k/0.5k is totally irelevant, because it's standard for zerg to have the whole map and is not him outplaying me." Again, I dont care if I outplay my opponent or reverse. I just dont like the many unexpected things in sc2. This game was just a example. It just feel like it was luck, and if it was luck then i dont enjoy that I won or it was correct that I lost. I dont get why it would be luck. It is luck cause you dont scout properly? I mean the same could be said if you had 3 starports in your base and suddenly show up with 9 carriers, srsly what a stupid argument. properly scout doesnt work. If you scout properly then you only see 17eggs, nothing more. It can be 17 roaches or 17 corrupters or whatever. I am sure Jaedong won vs MC and Oz because he was able to built ~50 mutas at once. How to react properly? Depends on the situation you are in. If you have a solid army, you build units like VRs/Archons that are extremly useful against whatever he builds. If you don't have a solid army, you are in a situation in which you have already lost and your question is the same as a zerg asking "so I got 70drones and 5queens vs 20gateway units that are in my natural and 40workers. How should I react?" Well you don't, you have manouvered yourself into a helpless situation and just because the supply tab told you "it's even" it really isn't.
back to the argument on if its luck or not, it doesn't matter what he makes, the problem is you can't have insight into what he is making thus making reaction and scouting much less part of the game (talking in general lines)
personally i feel the game is designed that the races have only very few points when they exetly have an advantage, unlike bw which it was switching almost non stop thus making it harder to untilze them.
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On October 14 2013 22:49 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 22:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 14 2013 22:36 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:On October 14 2013 21:32 ETisME wrote:On October 14 2013 21:23 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:51 Chaggi wrote:On October 14 2013 20:44 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:17 RampancyTW wrote:On October 14 2013 19:47 Dingodile wrote:
[quote]
It is too easy to play a good game. The most difficult part is winning the game. You can lose your games although you played very very well. I dont feel the difference if I win or lose the game, because I got a unexpected win or unexpected lose.
Too many things happened suddenly and unexpected, even you scouted very well. FF and fungal prevent you to micro your units. Build orders should have a lot lesser value to decide the game. This is because you're bad at the game, and don't recognize the difference between "playing well" and "outplaying your opponent." In fact, this entire mentality is pretty much the number one complaint about SC2 in this thread. "The game is random because my opponent beat me and I can't accept that he was better than me that game! Make it more like BW!" Yeah tell me how it isnt unexpected if you P melted Z easily a fight , then Zerg popped suddenly 17 ultras (strong macro I know lol) to outplay me (if you see the 17 Ultras, you cant react and make 3 or more immortals at one time, there no time there to have a nice number of immortals). I was Zerg in sc2 WoL since Release, in HotS I switched to Random to understand many many unexpected things better, but this hasnt worked and I love to play Random more than only Zerg. "suddenly" -> 55 seconds 5,100 minerals and 3,400 gas banked. Do you see how retarded your example is? If the Zerg has that big of a bank, and is making a counter to you with that much resources, you deserve to lose. This game isn't NR20. You know nothing about the 55sec. It can come 200sup pure roaches (hide somewhere until he has 200/200) or suddenly 17 ultras came out of the eggs. and the big bank isnt uncommon, I see it nearly everytime if PvZ goes into a macro-game at highest level. a 55 seconds when: you still have a huge army (you said your army melt zerg's easily), zerg building 17 ultras (which is102 supply along with 70 supply of drones, only 28 supply worth of unit to defend anything along with spines and spores) You are telling me you can't snipe at least 3 of his base while getting void rays or colossus or archons???? No he can't, because he is too far behind at this point. But instead of watching a replay and improving his play he rather whines about the game because "supplies were 200 vs 200 before we traded armies; that he had 6bases to my 1mining one and 5k3k bank to my 1k/0.5k is totally irelevant, because it's standard for zerg to have the whole map and is not him outplaying me." Again, I dont care if I outplay my opponent or reverse. I just dont like the many unexpected things in sc2. This game was just a example. It just feel like it was luck, and if it was luck then i dont enjoy that I won or it was correct that I lost. I dont get why it would be luck. It is luck cause you dont scout properly? I mean the same could be said if you had 3 starports in your base and suddenly show up with 9 carriers, srsly what a stupid argument. properly scout doesnt work. If you scout properly then you only see 17eggs, nothing more. It can be 17 roaches or 17 corrupters or whatever. I am sure Jaedong won vs MC and Oz because he was able to built ~50 mutas at once. How to react properly?
would 17 roaches or 17 corruptor be better than 17 ultras?
Would you expect 17 drones or 17 overlords as well?
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Everyone is asking why 80% mechanics let me detail why
If you look at any pro sport that is popular from real sports such as football/basketball all the way to esports such as BW, CS, and all the way to the most famous "strategy" game of them all chess. You will notice one thing. The game is insanely difficult to play. The skill ceiling is so high in these games it hurts your brain to think of someone actually playing a perfect game.
Chess for example.. In the first 4 moves of chess you have over 300,000,000,000 possible combinations that can happen. Imagine when a GM game gets to 30 moves????????????!?!? you are in the trillions of possible combinations and things that can happen. There is a famous quote from Richard Teichmann that chess is 99% tactics(for those of you that dont know chess tactics is basically like mechanics in sc2) The player that can see further ahead will win the chess game at a very good percentage. Thats why you see world champs that keep their reign for 10+ years. Now of course there is strategy in chess. Thats where the 20% comes in, you still have to know positions, imbalances, openings etc. While people like strategy, the problem becomes when strategy becomes to "figured out." Then you get to similar of a game every single time which in combination with low mechanics(excitement factor) is a very sad situation. When you have games with a high mechanics play such as chess your mind is fucking blown when a GM sees that 20 moves later he can be up a piece in the position. Just as in BW when a korean Pro is managing 5 bases, harassing another base while moving a whole army around the map just as good as an sc2 player yet he has a 12 unit cap.......
With low mechanics and more strategy you end up with unexciting games that don't break that human barrier of whats possible and whats impossible and you end up with a game that doesnt have that wow factor that really makes people play it again and again.
You also end up with a problem of no true champion, it is extremely difficult for an SC2 player to win straight tournaments in a row because all of these pro players are so damn close to the low skill ceiling of the game.
Dont get me wrong I love strategy, I love possible openings in a RTS/chess game. I love the idea of a shift in the meta game. But mechanics should come first.
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@xxxsmoke
Being able to think x moves ahead is strategy, not mechanics.
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On October 14 2013 23:28 XXXSmOke wrote:
Everyone is asking why 80% mechanics let me detail why
If you look at any pro sport that is popular from real sports such as football/basketball all the way to esports such as BW, CS, and all the way to the most famous "strategy" game of them all chess. You will notice one thing. The game is insanely difficult to play. The skill ceiling is so high in these games it hurts your brain to think of someone actually playing a perfect game.
Chess for example.. In the first 4 moves of chess you have over 300,000,000,000 possible combinations that can happen. Imagine when a GM game gets to 30 moves????????????!?!? you are in the trillions of possible combinations and things that can happen. There is a famous quote from Richard Teichmann that chess is 99% tactics(for those of you that dont know chess tactics is basically like mechanics in sc2) The player that can see further ahead will win the chess game at a very good percentage. Thats why you see world champs that keep their reign for 10+ years. Now of course there is strategy in chess. Thats where the 20% comes in, you still have to know positions, imbalances, openings etc. While people like strategy, the problem becomes when strategy becomes to "figured out." Then you get to similar of a game every single time which in combination with low mechanics(excitement factor) is a very sad situation. When you have games with a high mechanics play such as chess your mind is fucking blown when a GM sees that 20 moves later he can be up a piece in the position. Just as in BW when a korean Pro is managing 5 bases, harassing another base while moving a whole army around the map just as good as an sc2 player yet he has a 12 unit cap.......
With low mechanics and more strategy you end up with unexciting games that don't break that human barrier of whats possible and whats impossible and you end up with a game that doesnt have that wow factor that really makes people play it again and again.
You also end up with a problem of no true champion, it is extremely difficult for an SC2 player to win straight tournaments in a row because all of these pro players are so damn close to the low skill ceiling of the game.
Dont get me wrong I love strategy, I love possible openings in a RTS/chess game. I love the idea of a shift in the meta game. But mechanics should come first.
Yeah, and SC2 is 99% mechanics. Let me explain. You can win by doing anything. You can't win by thinking something. Basically every player can tell you from any replay of themselves how they would love to do X or Y as well at that point, but can't.
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On October 14 2013 22:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 22:49 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 22:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 14 2013 22:36 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:On October 14 2013 21:32 ETisME wrote:On October 14 2013 21:23 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:51 Chaggi wrote:On October 14 2013 20:44 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:17 RampancyTW wrote:
[quote]This is because you're bad at the game, and don't recognize the difference between "playing well" and "outplaying your opponent."
In fact, this entire mentality is pretty much the number one complaint about SC2 in this thread. "The game is random because my opponent beat me and I can't accept that he was better than me that game! Make it more like BW!"
Yeah tell me how it isnt unexpected if you P melted Z easily a fight , then Zerg popped suddenly 17 ultras (strong macro I know lol) to outplay me (if you see the 17 Ultras, you cant react and make 3 or more immortals at one time, there no time there to have a nice number of immortals). I was Zerg in sc2 WoL since Release, in HotS I switched to Random to understand many many unexpected things better, but this hasnt worked and I love to play Random more than only Zerg. "suddenly" -> 55 seconds 5,100 minerals and 3,400 gas banked. Do you see how retarded your example is? If the Zerg has that big of a bank, and is making a counter to you with that much resources, you deserve to lose. This game isn't NR20. You know nothing about the 55sec. It can come 200sup pure roaches (hide somewhere until he has 200/200) or suddenly 17 ultras came out of the eggs. and the big bank isnt uncommon, I see it nearly everytime if PvZ goes into a macro-game at highest level. a 55 seconds when: you still have a huge army (you said your army melt zerg's easily), zerg building 17 ultras (which is102 supply along with 70 supply of drones, only 28 supply worth of unit to defend anything along with spines and spores) You are telling me you can't snipe at least 3 of his base while getting void rays or colossus or archons???? No he can't, because he is too far behind at this point. But instead of watching a replay and improving his play he rather whines about the game because "supplies were 200 vs 200 before we traded armies; that he had 6bases to my 1mining one and 5k3k bank to my 1k/0.5k is totally irelevant, because it's standard for zerg to have the whole map and is not him outplaying me." Again, I dont care if I outplay my opponent or reverse. I just dont like the many unexpected things in sc2. This game was just a example. It just feel like it was luck, and if it was luck then i dont enjoy that I won or it was correct that I lost. I dont get why it would be luck. It is luck cause you dont scout properly? I mean the same could be said if you had 3 starports in your base and suddenly show up with 9 carriers, srsly what a stupid argument. properly scout doesnt work. If you scout properly then you only see 17eggs, nothing more. It can be 17 roaches or 17 corrupters or whatever. I am sure Jaedong won vs MC and Oz because he was able to built ~50 mutas at once. How to react properly? Depends on the situation you are in.
If you have a solid army, you build units like VRs/Archons that are extremly useful against whatever he builds.
If you don't have a solid army, you are in a situation in which you have already lost and your question is the same as a zerg asking "so I got 70drones and 5queens vs 20gateway units that are in my natural and 40workers. How should I react?" Well you don't, you have manouvered yourself into a helpless situation and just because the supply tab told you "it's even" it really isn't.
Before 50mutas popped, your army looked solid, then suddenly not anymore because nobody has expected that someone is buildung 50mutas or 17ultras.
[/QUOTE]
would 17 roaches or 17 corruptor be better than 17 ultras?
Would you expect 17 drones or 17 overlords as well?[/QUOTE]
Maybe 17 coruppters into broodlords or 17 infestors?
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On October 14 2013 21:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 21:32 ETisME wrote:On October 14 2013 21:23 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:51 Chaggi wrote:On October 14 2013 20:44 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 20:17 RampancyTW wrote:On October 14 2013 19:47 Dingodile wrote:On October 14 2013 18:57 ReMinD_ wrote:
I don't think SC2 is easy. It is too easy to play a good game. The most difficult part is winning the game. You can lose your games although you played very very well. I dont feel the difference if I win or lose the game, because I got a unexpected win or unexpected lose. Too many things happened suddenly and unexpected, even you scouted very well. FF and fungal prevent you to micro your units. Build orders should have a lot lesser value to decide the game. This is because you're bad at the game, and don't recognize the difference between "playing well" and "outplaying your opponent." In fact, this entire mentality is pretty much the number one complaint about SC2 in this thread. "The game is random because my opponent beat me and I can't accept that he was better than me that game! Make it more like BW!" Yeah tell me how it isnt unexpected if you P melted Z easily a fight , then Zerg popped suddenly 17 ultras (strong macro I know lol) to outplay me (if you see the 17 Ultras, you cant react and make 3 or more immortals at one time, there no time there to have a nice number of immortals). I was Zerg in sc2 WoL since Release, in HotS I switched to Random to understand many many unexpected things better, but this hasnt worked and I love to play Random more than only Zerg. "suddenly" -> 55 seconds 5,100 minerals and 3,400 gas banked. Do you see how retarded your example is? If the Zerg has that big of a bank, and is making a counter to you with that much resources, you deserve to lose. This game isn't NR20. You know nothing about the 55sec. It can come 200sup pure roaches (hide somewhere until he has 200/200) or suddenly 17 ultras came out of the eggs. and the big bank isnt uncommon, I see it nearly everytime if PvZ goes into a macro-game at highest level. a 55 seconds when: you still have a huge army (you said your army melt zerg's easily), zerg building 17 ultras (which is102 supply along with 70 supply of drones, only 28 supply worth of unit to defend anything along with spines and spores) You are telling me you can't snipe at least 3 of his base while getting void rays or colossus or archons???? No he can't, because he is too far behind at this point. But instead of watching a replay and improving his play he rather whines about the game because "supplies were 200 vs 200 before we traded armies; that he had 6bases to my 1mining one and 5k3k bank to my 1k/0.5k is totally irelevant, because it's standard for zerg to have the whole map and is not him outplaying me."
I don't know why people are arguing, isn't it common consensus that in the current metagame of PvZ, TvZ and in TvP the firstly mentioned race is on a clock and automatically loses if he/she let's the player of the secondly mentioned race accumulate too much bank?
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On October 14 2013 22:03 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 21:35 darkness wrote:On October 14 2013 18:23 Elroi wrote:Jaedong said in an interview that he thought sc2 was harder than BW because in BW he could just micro his units and win, which he can't in sc2 because of the lack of micro potential. zvz in the beginning of hots felt BW-esque. I was very sad that they nerfed it to the stale mu that it is today. (For example, I can't imagine a worse game than soO vs Soulkey code S ro 4 game two: http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs3/vod/80872. They basically rally roaches back and forth from minute 6 until the end of the game 10 minutes later.) Well, when SC2 WoL beta was running, I think it was ret that was infamous for saying there was no micro in SC2. I think people were bashing him for this opinion. I hate hyperbole like this though. Obviously there is micro involved in battles, I agree that positional and tactical awareness is more important. To say 'micro doesn't matter' in SC2 however is just plain wrong. The reason why micro was so important in BW was because of the bad AI design. That will never be replicated so may as well stop talking about it.
and yet people keep complaining about the SC2 "bad ai unit clumping" and ask blizzard to change it (or sc2 will die) instead of learning to micro....
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EPT
