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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On October 14 2013 14:44 Assirra wrote: It got nothing to do with faster lol. It's called real-time because there is no turn based system or equivalent system. And in those allocated amount time, whoever performs the most tasks as efficiently as possible gets the win. Its common logic. How can you be so blind to not see this point? I'm quite disappointed. | ||
Falling
Canada11265 Posts
On October 14 2013 14:44 Assirra wrote: It got nothing to do with faster lol. It's called real-time because there is no turn based system or equivalent system. No but as soon as it is in real time and there are no turns where you have time to plot every move in advance, then necessarily time is a factor. And then some players will become faster than the other in executing strategies, moving units, and creating more units. The success of RTS as a competitive game palatable to casual viewing, I believe was the marriage of strategy and twitch control of units on a level similar to Fighting Games. Thinking and Speed. Strategy and Execution. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 14 2013 14:47 Xiphos wrote: And in those allocated amount time, whoever performs the most tasks as efficiently as possible gets the win. Its common logic. How can you be so blind to not see this point? I'm quite disappointed. lol. I don't think he's considering the full picture, only the definition. Regardless, I agree with your definition. It's why fpv of players like Bisu(game I linked) will always be amazing to watch. Being able to do everything with that level of difficulty is just insane. It makes me wonder if its even possible to replicate that speed if you practice as much as he does :/ | ||
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ETisME
12275 Posts
On October 14 2013 14:56 BigFan wrote: lol. I don't think he's considering the full picture, only the definition. Regardless, I agree with your definition. It's why fpv of players like Bisu(game I linked) will always be amazing to watch. Being able to do everything with that level of difficulty is just insane. It makes me wonder if its even possible to replicate that speed if you practice as much as he does :/ I didn't really find that fpv to be that fast. I am sure it is supposed to be fast because of the 12unit limitation suppose to make it hard but the fpv doesn't feel that fast I find zerg stream in sc2 to be a lottttt faster, creep spread, ling splitting etc sadly I can't find JD vod, you can only imagine him playing a sc2 game with this kind of micro: now that is fast. his zvz during early hots is crazy to watch on stream, ling run by everywhere, muta positioning etc | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 14 2013 15:12 ETisME wrote: I didn't really find that fpv to be that fast. I am sure it is supposed to be fast because of the 12unit limitation suppose to make it hard but the fpv doesn't feel that fast I find zerg stream in sc2 to be a lottttt faster, creep spread, ling splitting etc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yfMoIVTilo sadly I can't find JD vod, you can only imagine him playing a sc2 game with this kind of micro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPI6L8bNBJk now that is fast. his zvz during early hots is crazy to watch on stream, ling run by everywhere, muta positioning etc Bisu is known as the multitasker in BW. He makes several clicks per screen and changes screens a lot. It's always clean as well. People have gotten headaches at his speed before. This Bisu fpv you saw is only after several weeks after he retired so he was still fresh off SCII so it's nowhere near his prime either. Sometimes speed isn't as important if you efficient about it which is why Flash always was on the low end of speed(250 apm) but was efficient and didn't spam it. You seriously can't tell me you're comparing Losira to Bisu? Take a look at 34 when he clicks 8-9 gateways within a second to make units then returns to his army right after. I'm sorry but Losira does not compare to that lol. I wouldn't deny he's fast but I doubt he's as efficient. In mere seconds, he changed his control groups then strategically decided where to attack next and splits up his arbiter to either side etc... You are vastly underestimating just how fucking hard and intensive it is to do what Bisu was doing there. The speed they are playing at is mindboggling to comprehend and it's also why BW is the most intense mechanical game there is. As for Jaedong, ya, I saw that split in his WCS AM games way back but it doesn't compare to this: Fast forward to 0:24. Jaedong is teal. That my friend is a crazy split, five directions and with a bigger angle than the one he did against the infestor. Jaedong is also considered to be as fast as Bisu in BW so it wouldn't surprise me if he's fast in SCII as well. So, what are we debating again? lol | ||
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ETisME
12275 Posts
JD timed that split perfectly well as he saw the infestors coming. A lot like how dragon dodge storm just as the HTs are closing in and predicting where the storm/fungal will land, you have to calculate the range of the fungal etc. I mean I dun really find that video to be that fast, there are engagements that he can just look away like cleaning up mines etc I dont know, maybe it's just me, engagements are slower. there are clumpes of units just lying around after they are built etc building the units from a lineup building is supposed to be hard? maybe, but I have seen Terran sniping banelings which is a moving target while kiting back though. I can't quite remember what I was arguing for lol but changing control groups etc sound cool, just that it isn't really anything a spectator would know from a non-fpv video | ||
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Witten
United States2094 Posts
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
The only boring thing in SC2 is TvP : always the same MU. And TvZ for the same reason. We really need mech to be viable... When will DK listen to flash suggestion ? 2 supply tanks and 100 gas ! Life showed that you can have multiple style in ZvZ, other than mass roaches every game. And he also showed that in SC2 too, you can outplay your opponent by multitasking. Players can still get a lot better, I think we are far from the ultimate SC2 skill cap. | ||
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tshi
United States2495 Posts
On October 14 2013 16:23 Witten wrote: If you haven't tried it you wouldn't understand it tbh. Making from 8 gateways in 1 second in BW is incredibly difficult because you can't just bind all your gateways to "2" and then mash the Z key for zealots. You have to use screen hotkeys on your gateway clusters and build units from each individual gateway, and you have to make sure your army is safe while you are doing so. What poor design, lol. SHeesh. My perspective is that it should be somewhat difficult to keep up with all the mechanical stuff necessary but the game is mostly about strategy and control. I think those are the cool parts about SC2 even though it's declining. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On October 14 2013 13:48 Rabiator wrote: You are completely ignoring the last letter of "RTS" ... and strategy has something to do with THINKING. You should also be able to OUTTHINK your opponent and win by making better decisions and not just win by "clicking contest" (which is a stupid contest). Making better decisions should be far more important than clicking faster and what you want is an "RTA" (real time ACTION game) ... which SC2 is. It is NOT an RTS anymore like BW was and which SC2 should have been. The more prominent mechanics are, the more you can outplay your opponents with strategy. That's because the number of players that can compete at the top will be very low, but they are still your main competition, and since they are selected based on mechanics at least some of them are likely to be strategically naive, which means that as a player with good strategic knowledge you can take advantage of that. (see iloveoov probably, great mechanics but wins his games due to strategy) On the other hand, if everyone was equal mechanically you'd have a huge pool of players and the ones with the best decision making and such would rise to the top, and since (unless you're playing chess) distinguishing yourself strategically is so difficult the game would become more like poker, with 90% luck factor where it's only money or wins over a long period that shows your consistency and skill. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 14 2013 15:46 ETisME wrote: hmmmm I am not sure if the bw split is more impressive. JD timed that split perfectly well as he saw the infestors coming. A lot like how dragon dodge storm just as the HTs are closing in and predicting where the storm/fungal will land, you have to calculate the range of the fungal etc. I mean I dun really find that video to be that fast, there are engagements that he can just look away like cleaning up mines etc I dont know, maybe it's just me, engagements are slower. there are clumpes of units just lying around after they are built etc building the units from a lineup building is supposed to be hard? maybe, but I have seen Terran sniping banelings which is a moving target while kiting back though. I can't quite remember what I was arguing for lol but changing control groups etc sound cool, just that it isn't really anything a spectator would know from a non-fpv video he splits in more directions at once and he won the game because of that split since he saved 2-3 mutas then rallied with his other air units. Jaedong could've gotten those mutas fungals, he was far ahead if I remember correctly. Point was to show that the same split was done before in BW with even more units. BTW, take a look at where the mutas stopped in the SCII one then the BW one. In SCII, they stopped just outside fungal range so he splits them a short distance but in BW one, they traveled a crazy distance before they stopped(if even). Why is that relevant? It shows just how much fast he had to move and act to make them travel the longer distance. Either way, it doesn't matter. Still Jaedong we are talking about XD If he looks away when clearing mines, the observer can lag behind and the dragoons eat the mines. I know since it happens to me all the time whenever I try to do it so I have to babysit the dragoons. Dragoons aren't stalkers, you can't just tell them to do something because sometimes they'll bug out or do random crap but their micro potential is through the roof. There are no rally points like in SCII in the sense that you have to manually click each building then set a rally point so you have to use camera keys to set 12 gate to another location each time. In SCII, you just click control group then a mouse click lol. No comparison on which is more time intensive. He didn't rally them forward because he wasn't going to attack yet and if he left his exp open, vultures can get in and shred his mineral lines. Also the reason why he had a pylon wall with a hole in it for his units to exit. At bolded, back when I first switched to terran in SCII, marine kiting was something I loved so I made a custom game and my own map. It was pretty simple. I had 10 marines and 18 or so zerglings all over the map so that I didn't have to reload the map a gazillion times lol. I originally thought I had to manually target the zerglings so I practiced this for a long time. Eventually, I was hitting each zerglings every single time, not missing anything. Once I realized how to actually kite with marine, I stopped doing this odd targetting lol. My point is if a silver noob like me was able to target zerglings, I'm sure in comparison to the pros who grind games and have good micro, it's not crazy hard to do. It's mostly about precision. Most cases, at least in WoL, you'll have tanks so you can use those to take out the banes instead of targetting. Is it impressive? it's really subjective. I think it's cool but I also think reaver micro, storm drops and all the arbiter play that Bisu does is just as cool if not cooler. Control group thing was to demonstrate just how fast he was playing to do all he did in such a short period of time. From what you've been writing, it sounds to me like you haven't tried BW. How about this then. Just give the game a try. You don't have to play thousands or even hundreds of games, just enough to at least try the very mechanics and units I'm talking about then tell me what you think. You can play protoss like Bisu so that we don't give you a mechanically harder race like terran. I think you would hate me if you play bio in TvZ then lol. I've played both SCII and BW and to me at least, I find BW mechanics are on another level. You can't even change hotkeys in BW. Marines aren't A like SCII, they are M etc... Anyways, this is going off topic. Let me know if you will consider it. It can't hurt and at least, you can say you tried it and your opinion will be stronger. I just remembered this: This is honestly the craziest micro I've ever seen in BW and nothing that I've seen in SCII will even hold a candle to it. This if Flash vs Bisu. Flash is pushing in with vultures+tanks and trying to lay mines around Bisu's dragoons but Bisu's sick micro prevents him from winning that. Since I figure your BW knowledge might be lacking, vultures are laying spider mines which are like widow mines but they don't have a timer. Once they detonate, they are gone but they have a wide area of damage. Bisu is microing his dragoons to try and snipe the tanks but avoid the spider mines and in a lot of cases, target them before they explode on his units. Edit: If you decide to give it a try, here's the link: http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/sc_start.html Small quick download and fast to set up. | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
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MrLightning
306 Posts
On October 14 2013 16:48 DusTerr wrote: Maybe if we stop comparing sc2 to a dying (dead?) game we can appreciate it more. Good idea. Bad place to mention it. I am seriously surprised that this forum does not require you to verify your SC:BW account in order to become a member. Along with a picture of yourself playing the game and a picture of a autographed computer competent or accessory from a kespa player. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 14 2013 06:47 Grumbels wrote: That's not a few years ago though, that's four months ago.  And that person is not exactly the best source (someone bitter about being fired by Blizzard, plus it's all secondhand info). The interview was posted here four months ago, it's older than that. The information seems perfectly plausible, especially given what we've seen so far. I really didn't sense much bitterness, it seemed pretty straight up, that person also had nice things to say about the company and a lot of people working there, what we had on TL was a snippet. Given how SC2 has turned out, I feel justified in believing at least that part of it. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On October 14 2013 16:48 DusTerr wrote: Maybe if we stop comparing sc2 to a dying (dead?) game we can appreciate it more. BW is not dead, but it sure would be helpful to stop the SC2 vs BW discussion. It serves no purpose other than spreading hatred and the "your game sucks! mine rocks!"-mentality. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On October 14 2013 16:48 DusTerr wrote: Maybe if we stop comparing a dying game to a dead game we can appreciate it more. Fixed | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 14 2013 17:30 KeksX wrote: BW is not dead, but it sure would be helpful to stop the SC2 vs BW discussion. It serves no purpose other than spreading hatred and the "your game sucks! mine rocks!"-mentality. If it could be less about a competition and more about what SC2 could learn from BW it would be fine. Comparing them in a competitive setting just turns into a pissing contest. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On October 14 2013 17:30 Squat wrote: The interview was posted here four months ago, it's older than that. The information seems perfectly plausible, especially given what we've seen so far. I really didn't sense much bitterness, it seemed pretty straight up, that person also had nice things to say about the company and a lot of people working there, what we had on TL was a snippet. Given how SC2 has turned out, I feel justified in believing at least that part of it. No, it's four months old. The post on reddit is four months old too. (link) | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
I still don´t get 100% why sc2 is dying. Sure there are retirements but most of these were from players that either were in esport very long, had trouble transitioning from bw to sc2 like Bisu or weren't able to succeed recently like MKP. It isn't a shocking realization that the sc2 market was heavily over saturated with almost everything in 2011 and 2012 with tournaments and players. Also the idea that BW had more success (at least in korea) "because it is the way way better game and sc2 is shit" stands against the logic behind this long term successful "hype" products. Look at other things that are "great (selling)" like Dragonball, Pokemon, The Simpsons, Iphone, World of Warcraft, Google or Tomatos(the fruit) or even TeamLiquid.net. Yes, they were all good products but what was way more important that they were at the right place at the right time and that is something you can´t replicate at will. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 14 2013 17:50 Grumbels wrote: No, it's four months old. The post on reddit is four months old too. (link) Fair enough. It still seems perfectly reasonable, a bunch of higher ups in a big company are generally dicks and have an inflated opinion of themselves? Sounds like every company I ever heard of, stands to reason blizzard would be no different. It also matches the experience of pro players and community members who tried to nudge blizzard in another direction regarding SC2. | ||
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