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so much crap about the in game chat.. chat was interesting in 1998 because the year was 1998. in 1998 i used to chat all the time, now i don't, because its not 1998 anymore. and having an oblig chat channel you get dumped into year 2013, i'll give you a hint, it's gonna look a whole lot like a twitch chat. i'll stick to TL because it provides moderated discussions about topics i can choose myself. if i want to see a see an ascii dick-pick ill google it.
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On September 30 2013 10:30 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 10:17 Xiphos wrote:On September 30 2013 09:42 aZealot wrote:
What a load of condescending crap. You don't have to have played or known BW to have a privileged opinion of what you like and don't like in SC2. Especially if all your response is "ignorance" and a variation of "design mistakes" for the nth time (zzz).
"People like you"? Get off it.
No you absolutely do. Rule of thumb is if you haven't been to a place, experienced a certain subject, don't comment on it. It's just going to show your ignorance. Quit trying to rationalize your unresearched laziness. What? You do realize the poster was expressing his opinion that he liked SC2 and that it was fine. I did not know he (or anybody else) was supposed to research BW when he was talking about SC2. Thanks for that update. Do some of you BW lot never stop your snivelling? Three years after release? Quit trying to rationalize your presumptous crap about what is wrong with the game and what it should look like. Bunch of miserable moaners crying because big bad Blizzard took away your popsicle and never letting anyone hear the end of it. Man the fuck up and move on. (Oh, and I did play BW for a couple of years while at University. I liked it. But, I like SC2 more.)
Sorry to burst your bubble but BW on Afreeca had a total view of 40K shared with top streamers last night. It was only second to League of Legends. As matter of fact, BW's viewership in terms of streaming have always been much higher than SC2's even though SC2 is "global" but Korean BW fans still outnumbers SC2 fans by a fairly big margin.
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On September 30 2013 10:35 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 10:30 aZealot wrote:On September 30 2013 10:17 Xiphos wrote:On September 30 2013 09:42 aZealot wrote:
What a load of condescending crap. You don't have to have played or known BW to have a privileged opinion of what you like and don't like in SC2. Especially if all your response is "ignorance" and a variation of "design mistakes" for the nth time (zzz).
"People like you"? Get off it.
No you absolutely do. Rule of thumb is if you haven't been to a place, experienced a certain subject, don't comment on it. It's just going to show your ignorance. Quit trying to rationalize your unresearched laziness. What? You do realize the poster was expressing his opinion that he liked SC2 and that it was fine. I did not know he (or anybody else) was supposed to research BW when he was talking about SC2. Thanks for that update. Do some of you BW lot never stop your snivelling? Three years after release? Quit trying to rationalize your presumptous crap about what is wrong with the game and what it should look like. Bunch of miserable moaners crying because big bad Blizzard took away your popsicle and never letting anyone hear the end of it. Man the fuck up and move on. (Oh, and I did play BW for a couple of years while at University. I liked it. But, I like SC2 more.) Sorry to burst your bubble but BW on Afreeca had a total view of 40K shared with top streamers last night. It was only second to League of Legends. As matter of fact, BW's viewership in terms of streaming have always been much higher than SC2's even though SC2 is "global" but Korean BW fans still outnumbers SC2 fans by a fairly big margin.
i see what you mean but i don't understand the point. since when should my criteria of liking something be based on whether koreans like it
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On September 30 2013 10:46 Dundron2000 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 10:35 Xiphos wrote:On September 30 2013 10:30 aZealot wrote:On September 30 2013 10:17 Xiphos wrote:On September 30 2013 09:42 aZealot wrote:
What a load of condescending crap. You don't have to have played or known BW to have a privileged opinion of what you like and don't like in SC2. Especially if all your response is "ignorance" and a variation of "design mistakes" for the nth time (zzz).
"People like you"? Get off it.
No you absolutely do. Rule of thumb is if you haven't been to a place, experienced a certain subject, don't comment on it. It's just going to show your ignorance. Quit trying to rationalize your unresearched laziness. What? You do realize the poster was expressing his opinion that he liked SC2 and that it was fine. I did not know he (or anybody else) was supposed to research BW when he was talking about SC2. Thanks for that update. Do some of you BW lot never stop your snivelling? Three years after release? Quit trying to rationalize your presumptous crap about what is wrong with the game and what it should look like. Bunch of miserable moaners crying because big bad Blizzard took away your popsicle and never letting anyone hear the end of it. Man the fuck up and move on. (Oh, and I did play BW for a couple of years while at University. I liked it. But, I like SC2 more.) Sorry to burst your bubble but BW on Afreeca had a total view of 40K shared with top streamers last night. It was only second to League of Legends. As matter of fact, BW's viewership in terms of streaming have always been much higher than SC2's even though SC2 is "global" but Korean BW fans still outnumbers SC2 fans by a fairly big margin. i see what you mean but i don't understand the point. since when should my criteria of liking something be based on whether koreans like it
It shouldn't...as the post wasn't directed at you but toward the middle part of the intended target's middle paragraph. So move along.
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On September 30 2013 10:51 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 10:46 Dundron2000 wrote:On September 30 2013 10:35 Xiphos wrote:On September 30 2013 10:30 aZealot wrote:On September 30 2013 10:17 Xiphos wrote:On September 30 2013 09:42 aZealot wrote:
What a load of condescending crap. You don't have to have played or known BW to have a privileged opinion of what you like and don't like in SC2. Especially if all your response is "ignorance" and a variation of "design mistakes" for the nth time (zzz).
"People like you"? Get off it.
No you absolutely do. Rule of thumb is if you haven't been to a place, experienced a certain subject, don't comment on it. It's just going to show your ignorance. Quit trying to rationalize your unresearched laziness. What? You do realize the poster was expressing his opinion that he liked SC2 and that it was fine. I did not know he (or anybody else) was supposed to research BW when he was talking about SC2. Thanks for that update. Do some of you BW lot never stop your snivelling? Three years after release? Quit trying to rationalize your presumptous crap about what is wrong with the game and what it should look like. Bunch of miserable moaners crying because big bad Blizzard took away your popsicle and never letting anyone hear the end of it. Man the fuck up and move on. (Oh, and I did play BW for a couple of years while at University. I liked it. But, I like SC2 more.) Sorry to burst your bubble but BW on Afreeca had a total view of 40K shared with top streamers last night. It was only second to League of Legends. As matter of fact, BW's viewership in terms of streaming have always been much higher than SC2's even though SC2 is "global" but Korean BW fans still outnumbers SC2 fans by a fairly big margin. i see what you mean but i don't understand the point. since when should my criteria of liking something be based on whether koreans like it It shouldn't...as the post wasn't directed at you but toward the middle part of the intended target's middle paragraph. So move along.
well i will, but sometimes i feel like people who say they wish SC2 would change for the "better" are really saying i wish i could relive BW in it's prime. but you can't. so maybe you should 'move along too' you know..
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On September 30 2013 10:58 Dundron2000 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 10:51 Xiphos wrote:On September 30 2013 10:46 Dundron2000 wrote:On September 30 2013 10:35 Xiphos wrote:On September 30 2013 10:30 aZealot wrote:On September 30 2013 10:17 Xiphos wrote:On September 30 2013 09:42 aZealot wrote:
What a load of condescending crap. You don't have to have played or known BW to have a privileged opinion of what you like and don't like in SC2. Especially if all your response is "ignorance" and a variation of "design mistakes" for the nth time (zzz).
"People like you"? Get off it.
No you absolutely do. Rule of thumb is if you haven't been to a place, experienced a certain subject, don't comment on it. It's just going to show your ignorance. Quit trying to rationalize your unresearched laziness. What? You do realize the poster was expressing his opinion that he liked SC2 and that it was fine. I did not know he (or anybody else) was supposed to research BW when he was talking about SC2. Thanks for that update. Do some of you BW lot never stop your snivelling? Three years after release? Quit trying to rationalize your presumptous crap about what is wrong with the game and what it should look like. Bunch of miserable moaners crying because big bad Blizzard took away your popsicle and never letting anyone hear the end of it. Man the fuck up and move on. (Oh, and I did play BW for a couple of years while at University. I liked it. But, I like SC2 more.) Sorry to burst your bubble but BW on Afreeca had a total view of 40K shared with top streamers last night. It was only second to League of Legends. As matter of fact, BW's viewership in terms of streaming have always been much higher than SC2's even though SC2 is "global" but Korean BW fans still outnumbers SC2 fans by a fairly big margin. i see what you mean but i don't understand the point. since when should my criteria of liking something be based on whether koreans like it It shouldn't...as the post wasn't directed at you but toward the middle part of the intended target's middle paragraph. So move along. well i will, but sometimes i feel like people who say they wish SC2 would change for the "better" are really saying i wish i could relive BW in it's prime. but you can't. so maybe you should 'move along too' you know..
I'm not moving anymore, BW is heading into a 2nd peak again. I just want whats the best for it's lil' brother. great If SC2 can re emulate the success. Don't be complacent about things, always seek improvement.
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Visual and sound effects:
SC2 sound effects are just too bland. As some poster once complained: Zerglings attack used to sound like ramming in BW but now in SC2 it sounds like dropping a dead cockcroah on a piece of paper. I can still remember the attack and death voices of every Zerg unit in BW. In SC2 all the dead Zergs’ voice were “splat” and “splutter”
As for visuals, Blizzard has been “WoW’ing” the artworks of their characters. The characters in BW and Diablo 2 were much more serious looking and intimidating imo. The SC2 units and Diablo 3 characters looking like WoW characters made me think that Blizzard just want to attract their WoW fan base with their other products.
Game mechanics:
When it comes to “dumbing down the game”, smart casting, MBS, and massive unit selection are not as big of an issue as BW elitists claim to be.
Most posters stated that the collision was the main problem for SC2. The collision in SC2 has made the units too clumped up to the point where positioning was no longer important.
You can implement the three things mentioned above in BW and BW will be just as hard. Try A moving 100 dragoons selected in one single group into a tank line, trust me it will still be the same outcome. Collision is the main issue
Mules, chronoboosts, and spawn larvae were also an issue as well. Killing huge amounts of workers from harassment such as a storm drops usually brought us great comebacks in BW. However, with the addition of mules, chronoboosts, and spawn larvae, coming back with harassment is no longer viable since the three abilities above can just replenish workers in no time. In SC2, once you lost map control, you have no way of coming back from a disadvantage
Finally, the two geysers / refineries rule is the most retarded thing ever since you get less units which means less huge armies. Why complicate simple stuff such as resource collection whilst dumbing down something important such as unit mechanics? Blizzard?
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The reason SC2 will never be fixed is because of all the apologists who act as though the game is fine in its current state, short of perhaps a few additions. Sadly, this is not the case. The game is fundamentally flawed, and the flaws are deeply rooted within the core of the game. Band-aid fixes such as buffing harassment units are never going to be enough, but they do seem to be enough to appease much of the player base, which is a shame.
Take a look at Diablo 3. There were widespread complaints about the game, and now Blizzard has announced an expansion that is essentially rebuilding it from the ground up. If no one complained, this would not have happened. Look at the Xbox One for another example. Complacency is not going to solve anything.
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On September 30 2013 11:51 coolman123123 wrote:
The reason SC2 will never be fixed is because of all the apologists who act as though the game is fine in its current state, short of perhaps a few additions. Sadly, this is not the case. The game is fundamentally flawed, and the flaws are deeply rooted within the core of the game. Band-aid fixes such as buffing harassment units are never going to be enough, but they do seem to be enough to appease much of the player base, which is a shame.
Take a look at Diablo 3. There were widespread complaints about the game, and now Blizzard has announced an expansion that is essentially rebuilding it from the ground up. If no one complained, this would not have happened. Look at the Xbox One for another example. Complacency is not going to solve anything.
As if SC2 was bad before infestor broodlord and immortal sentries all in.
SC2 can be fixed without going to the so called "fundamentally flawed"
The game was doing great until those builds arised, viewership can't be compared with LoL and then everyone tries to find out what's wrong about it and wonder why it isn't as big as LoL
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On September 30 2013 12:27 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 11:51 coolman123123 wrote:
The reason SC2 will never be fixed is because of all the apologists who act as though the game is fine in its current state, short of perhaps a few additions. Sadly, this is not the case. The game is fundamentally flawed, and the flaws are deeply rooted within the core of the game. Band-aid fixes such as buffing harassment units are never going to be enough, but they do seem to be enough to appease much of the player base, which is a shame.
Take a look at Diablo 3. There were widespread complaints about the game, and now Blizzard has announced an expansion that is essentially rebuilding it from the ground up. If no one complained, this would not have happened. Look at the Xbox One for another example. Complacency is not going to solve anything. As if SC2 was bad before infestor broodlord and immortal sentries all in. SC2 can be fixed without going to the so called "fundamentally flawed" The game was doing great until those builds arised, viewership can't be compared with LoL and then everyone tries to find out what's wrong about it and wonder why it isn't as big as LoL
If early/mid WoL is what you think we should be aiming for, I'm afraid we are looking towards different goals. You seem to want a passable, albeit highly flawed game. What I want is to make Sc2 the best game it can possibly be. Do I care if it pulls LoL sized crowds? No. I just want a good game.
Thankfully, we have a game that we can look to as a point of reference (Brood War), and even without speculative theory-crafting we know several ways to improve the game because we saw them work in BW. No, this doesn't mean turning the game into BW, but it does mean learning from BW (and sc2 so far), and making the necessary adjustments.
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On September 30 2013 11:51 coolman123123 wrote:
The reason SC2 will never be fixed is because of all the apologists who act as though the game is fine in its current state, short of perhaps a few additions. Sadly, this is not the case. The game is fundamentally flawed, and the flaws are deeply rooted within the core of the game. Band-aid fixes such as buffing harassment units are never going to be enough, but they do seem to be enough to appease much of the player base, which is a shame.
Take a look at Diablo 3. There were widespread complaints about the game, and now Blizzard has announced an expansion that is essentially rebuilding it from the ground up. If no one complained, this would not have happened. Look at the Xbox One for another example. Complacency is not going to solve anything.
Pretty much this.
And part of reason is, how TL mods ban/warn people who complain about the game, eventhough most of them provide honest concerns. Because of this many people remain silent since they don't wanna get publically spanked, or SOME even 'believe' complaining about the game is a BAD THING. This goes also to pros, except the ballzy ones (MC).
The more you support the game the less likely blizzard will do anything.
Community needs to speak up. TL writers should be writing about problems of the game, instead of creating "esports articles" as if everything is fine. We should making new maps which are better suited for esports and shove it to blizzards face. Instead we are creating illusion of esports with a not-good-enough-for-esports game.
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On September 30 2013 12:53 coolman123123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 12:27 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 11:51 coolman123123 wrote:
The reason SC2 will never be fixed is because of all the apologists who act as though the game is fine in its current state, short of perhaps a few additions. Sadly, this is not the case. The game is fundamentally flawed, and the flaws are deeply rooted within the core of the game. Band-aid fixes such as buffing harassment units are never going to be enough, but they do seem to be enough to appease much of the player base, which is a shame.
Take a look at Diablo 3. There were widespread complaints about the game, and now Blizzard has announced an expansion that is essentially rebuilding it from the ground up. If no one complained, this would not have happened. Look at the Xbox One for another example. Complacency is not going to solve anything. As if SC2 was bad before infestor broodlord and immortal sentries all in. SC2 can be fixed without going to the so called "fundamentally flawed" The game was doing great until those builds arised, viewership can't be compared with LoL and then everyone tries to find out what's wrong about it and wonder why it isn't as big as LoL If early/mid WoL is what you think we should be aiming for, I'm afraid we are looking towards different goals. You seem to want a passable, albeit highly flawed game. What I want is to make Sc2 the best game it can possibly be. Do I care if it pulls LoL sized crowds? No. I just want a good game. Thankfully, we have a game that we can look to as a point of reference (Brood War), and even without speculative theory-crafting we know several ways to improve the game because we saw them work in BW. No, this doesn't mean turning the game into BW, but it does mean learning from BW (and sc2 so far), and making the necessary adjustments.
I am saying SC2 is fine until those builds arises. They just need to improve upon what we have now.
BW is lucky because it went popular when the games were as difficult and challenging to play.
the game is fundermentally different from bw, there is no reason to add in bw mechanics just to please the bw fans and push away the current players and potential new comers
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On September 30 2013 13:07 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 12:53 coolman123123 wrote:On September 30 2013 12:27 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 11:51 coolman123123 wrote:
The reason SC2 will never be fixed is because of all the apologists who act as though the game is fine in its current state, short of perhaps a few additions. Sadly, this is not the case. The game is fundamentally flawed, and the flaws are deeply rooted within the core of the game. Band-aid fixes such as buffing harassment units are never going to be enough, but they do seem to be enough to appease much of the player base, which is a shame.
Take a look at Diablo 3. There were widespread complaints about the game, and now Blizzard has announced an expansion that is essentially rebuilding it from the ground up. If no one complained, this would not have happened. Look at the Xbox One for another example. Complacency is not going to solve anything. As if SC2 was bad before infestor broodlord and immortal sentries all in. SC2 can be fixed without going to the so called "fundamentally flawed" The game was doing great until those builds arised, viewership can't be compared with LoL and then everyone tries to find out what's wrong about it and wonder why it isn't as big as LoL If early/mid WoL is what you think we should be aiming for, I'm afraid we are looking towards different goals. You seem to want a passable, albeit highly flawed game. What I want is to make Sc2 the best game it can possibly be. Do I care if it pulls LoL sized crowds? No. I just want a good game. Thankfully, we have a game that we can look to as a point of reference (Brood War), and even without speculative theory-crafting we know several ways to improve the game because we saw them work in BW. No, this doesn't mean turning the game into BW, but it does mean learning from BW (and sc2 so far), and making the necessary adjustments. I am saying SC2 is fine until those builds arises. They just need to improve upon what we have now. BW is lucky because it went popular when the games were as difficult and challenging to play. the game is fundermentally different from bw, there is no reason to add in bw mechanics just to please the bw fans and push away the current players and potential new comers
I'm not talking about adding BW mechanics, I just mean looking at things like unit design, economy design, the pace of the game, defenders advantage etc. I agree they are fundamentally different games, but these are all things you can analyze from BW and use to improve Sc2.
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On September 30 2013 13:18 coolman123123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 13:07 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 12:53 coolman123123 wrote:On September 30 2013 12:27 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 11:51 coolman123123 wrote:
The reason SC2 will never be fixed is because of all the apologists who act as though the game is fine in its current state, short of perhaps a few additions. Sadly, this is not the case. The game is fundamentally flawed, and the flaws are deeply rooted within the core of the game. Band-aid fixes such as buffing harassment units are never going to be enough, but they do seem to be enough to appease much of the player base, which is a shame.
Take a look at Diablo 3. There were widespread complaints about the game, and now Blizzard has announced an expansion that is essentially rebuilding it from the ground up. If no one complained, this would not have happened. Look at the Xbox One for another example. Complacency is not going to solve anything. As if SC2 was bad before infestor broodlord and immortal sentries all in. SC2 can be fixed without going to the so called "fundamentally flawed" The game was doing great until those builds arised, viewership can't be compared with LoL and then everyone tries to find out what's wrong about it and wonder why it isn't as big as LoL If early/mid WoL is what you think we should be aiming for, I'm afraid we are looking towards different goals. You seem to want a passable, albeit highly flawed game. What I want is to make Sc2 the best game it can possibly be. Do I care if it pulls LoL sized crowds? No. I just want a good game. Thankfully, we have a game that we can look to as a point of reference (Brood War), and even without speculative theory-crafting we know several ways to improve the game because we saw them work in BW. No, this doesn't mean turning the game into BW, but it does mean learning from BW (and sc2 so far), and making the necessary adjustments. I am saying SC2 is fine until those builds arises. They just need to improve upon what we have now. BW is lucky because it went popular when the games were as difficult and challenging to play. the game is fundermentally different from bw, there is no reason to add in bw mechanics just to please the bw fans and push away the current players and potential new comers I'm not talking about adding BW mechanics, I just mean looking at things like unit design, economy design, the pace of the game, defenders advantage etc. I agree they are fundamentally different games, but these are all things you can analyze from BW and use to improve Sc2.
I also agree with you. Unfortunately, most people don't see how much unrealized potential the game has. Everyone should read The breadth of Gameplay in SC2 plus Lalush's posts on the same issue.
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On September 30 2013 13:27 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 13:18 coolman123123 wrote:On September 30 2013 13:07 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 12:53 coolman123123 wrote:On September 30 2013 12:27 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 11:51 coolman123123 wrote:
The reason SC2 will never be fixed is because of all the apologists who act as though the game is fine in its current state, short of perhaps a few additions. Sadly, this is not the case. The game is fundamentally flawed, and the flaws are deeply rooted within the core of the game. Band-aid fixes such as buffing harassment units are never going to be enough, but they do seem to be enough to appease much of the player base, which is a shame.
Take a look at Diablo 3. There were widespread complaints about the game, and now Blizzard has announced an expansion that is essentially rebuilding it from the ground up. If no one complained, this would not have happened. Look at the Xbox One for another example. Complacency is not going to solve anything. As if SC2 was bad before infestor broodlord and immortal sentries all in. SC2 can be fixed without going to the so called "fundamentally flawed" The game was doing great until those builds arised, viewership can't be compared with LoL and then everyone tries to find out what's wrong about it and wonder why it isn't as big as LoL If early/mid WoL is what you think we should be aiming for, I'm afraid we are looking towards different goals. You seem to want a passable, albeit highly flawed game. What I want is to make Sc2 the best game it can possibly be. Do I care if it pulls LoL sized crowds? No. I just want a good game. Thankfully, we have a game that we can look to as a point of reference (Brood War), and even without speculative theory-crafting we know several ways to improve the game because we saw them work in BW. No, this doesn't mean turning the game into BW, but it does mean learning from BW (and sc2 so far), and making the necessary adjustments. I am saying SC2 is fine until those builds arises. They just need to improve upon what we have now. BW is lucky because it went popular when the games were as difficult and challenging to play. the game is fundermentally different from bw, there is no reason to add in bw mechanics just to please the bw fans and push away the current players and potential new comers I'm not talking about adding BW mechanics, I just mean looking at things like unit design, economy design, the pace of the game, defenders advantage etc. I agree they are fundamentally different games, but these are all things you can analyze from BW and use to improve Sc2. I also agree with you. Unfortunately, most people don't see how much unrealized potential the game has. Everyone should read The breadth of Gameplay in SC2 plus Lalush's posts on the same issue.
until you watch the tournament and wonder if this really leads to a better game overall.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324001
also you can watch the vod and judge it yourself
http://www.youtube.com/user/WiseOldSenex/videos?view=1
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On September 30 2013 13:53 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 13:27 AndAgain wrote:On September 30 2013 13:18 coolman123123 wrote:On September 30 2013 13:07 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 12:53 coolman123123 wrote:On September 30 2013 12:27 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 11:51 coolman123123 wrote:
The reason SC2 will never be fixed is because of all the apologists who act as though the game is fine in its current state, short of perhaps a few additions. Sadly, this is not the case. The game is fundamentally flawed, and the flaws are deeply rooted within the core of the game. Band-aid fixes such as buffing harassment units are never going to be enough, but they do seem to be enough to appease much of the player base, which is a shame.
Take a look at Diablo 3. There were widespread complaints about the game, and now Blizzard has announced an expansion that is essentially rebuilding it from the ground up. If no one complained, this would not have happened. Look at the Xbox One for another example. Complacency is not going to solve anything. As if SC2 was bad before infestor broodlord and immortal sentries all in. SC2 can be fixed without going to the so called "fundamentally flawed" The game was doing great until those builds arised, viewership can't be compared with LoL and then everyone tries to find out what's wrong about it and wonder why it isn't as big as LoL If early/mid WoL is what you think we should be aiming for, I'm afraid we are looking towards different goals. You seem to want a passable, albeit highly flawed game. What I want is to make Sc2 the best game it can possibly be. Do I care if it pulls LoL sized crowds? No. I just want a good game. Thankfully, we have a game that we can look to as a point of reference (Brood War), and even without speculative theory-crafting we know several ways to improve the game because we saw them work in BW. No, this doesn't mean turning the game into BW, but it does mean learning from BW (and sc2 so far), and making the necessary adjustments. I am saying SC2 is fine until those builds arises. They just need to improve upon what we have now. BW is lucky because it went popular when the games were as difficult and challenging to play. the game is fundermentally different from bw, there is no reason to add in bw mechanics just to please the bw fans and push away the current players and potential new comers I'm not talking about adding BW mechanics, I just mean looking at things like unit design, economy design, the pace of the game, defenders advantage etc. I agree they are fundamentally different games, but these are all things you can analyze from BW and use to improve Sc2. I also agree with you. Unfortunately, most people don't see how much unrealized potential the game has. Everyone should read The breadth of Gameplay in SC2 plus Lalush's posts on the same issue. until you watch the tournament and wonder if this really leads to a better game overall. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324001also you can watch the vod and judge it yourself http://www.youtube.com/user/WiseOldSenex/videos?view=1
While I don't think this specific FRB concept is necessarily the right answer, you have to keep in mind that
1) the game is balanced around the current economic system
2) the FRB meta game is completely undeveloped
it's pretty absurd to draw any conclusions based on that one tournament.
EDIT: after watching a few of the games it does seem as though the game is a bit more back and fourth and micro intensive... but like I said you can't really draw any conclusions either way
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On September 30 2013 14:10 coolman123123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 13:53 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 13:27 AndAgain wrote:On September 30 2013 13:18 coolman123123 wrote:On September 30 2013 13:07 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 12:53 coolman123123 wrote:On September 30 2013 12:27 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 11:51 coolman123123 wrote:
The reason SC2 will never be fixed is because of all the apologists who act as though the game is fine in its current state, short of perhaps a few additions. Sadly, this is not the case. The game is fundamentally flawed, and the flaws are deeply rooted within the core of the game. Band-aid fixes such as buffing harassment units are never going to be enough, but they do seem to be enough to appease much of the player base, which is a shame.
Take a look at Diablo 3. There were widespread complaints about the game, and now Blizzard has announced an expansion that is essentially rebuilding it from the ground up. If no one complained, this would not have happened. Look at the Xbox One for another example. Complacency is not going to solve anything. As if SC2 was bad before infestor broodlord and immortal sentries all in. SC2 can be fixed without going to the so called "fundamentally flawed" The game was doing great until those builds arised, viewership can't be compared with LoL and then everyone tries to find out what's wrong about it and wonder why it isn't as big as LoL If early/mid WoL is what you think we should be aiming for, I'm afraid we are looking towards different goals. You seem to want a passable, albeit highly flawed game. What I want is to make Sc2 the best game it can possibly be. Do I care if it pulls LoL sized crowds? No. I just want a good game. Thankfully, we have a game that we can look to as a point of reference (Brood War), and even without speculative theory-crafting we know several ways to improve the game because we saw them work in BW. No, this doesn't mean turning the game into BW, but it does mean learning from BW (and sc2 so far), and making the necessary adjustments. I am saying SC2 is fine until those builds arises. They just need to improve upon what we have now. BW is lucky because it went popular when the games were as difficult and challenging to play. the game is fundermentally different from bw, there is no reason to add in bw mechanics just to please the bw fans and push away the current players and potential new comers I'm not talking about adding BW mechanics, I just mean looking at things like unit design, economy design, the pace of the game, defenders advantage etc. I agree they are fundamentally different games, but these are all things you can analyze from BW and use to improve Sc2. I also agree with you. Unfortunately, most people don't see how much unrealized potential the game has. Everyone should read The breadth of Gameplay in SC2 plus Lalush's posts on the same issue. until you watch the tournament and wonder if this really leads to a better game overall. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324001also you can watch the vod and judge it yourself http://www.youtube.com/user/WiseOldSenex/videos?view=1 While I don't think this specific FRB concept is necessarily the right answer, you have to keep in mind that 1) the game is balanced around the current economic system 2) the FRB meta game is completely undeveloped it's pretty absurd to draw any conclusions based on that one tournament.
which leads to my point.
What you are asking is a complete revamp of the game, breaking all meta and changing unit design and may even need to go as far as revamping the macro mechanics.
Do you see it happening at all when a small patch is leading to a public outcry?
We can, however, go back to improve what we have now, focusing on the current problems because SC2 had proven it is a fine game before.
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On September 30 2013 11:35 ppshchik wrote:
Mules, chronoboosts, and spawn larvae were also an issue as well. Killing huge amounts of workers from harassment such as a storm drops usually brought us great comebacks in BW. However, with the addition of mules, chronoboosts, and spawn larvae, coming back with harassment is no longer viable since the three abilities above can just replenish workers in no time. In SC2, once you lost map control, you have no way of coming back from a disadvantage
Actually one of the really unpleasant mechanics of SC2 is how you recover from a disadvantage in many situations. You bunker up, wait the supply to go up (preferrably max out) and then put all your hope on the next engagement. Even if you still fight from a disadvantage, the volatility of SC2's fights and snowballing that happens after a won engagement still allow you to negate any kind of advantage your enemy might've had acquired during your turtling phase.
The turling comeback is both atrocious to spectate and also to play against. Either you see the expected player to confirm the win that should've been taken 5 to 10 minutes earlier or you see a rather cheap comeback by a player who has just played the least inspiring SC2 you can find. Neither of the options feels exciting.
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On September 30 2013 14:16 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 14:10 coolman123123 wrote:On September 30 2013 13:53 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 13:27 AndAgain wrote:On September 30 2013 13:18 coolman123123 wrote:On September 30 2013 13:07 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 12:53 coolman123123 wrote:On September 30 2013 12:27 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 11:51 coolman123123 wrote:
The reason SC2 will never be fixed is because of all the apologists who act as though the game is fine in its current state, short of perhaps a few additions. Sadly, this is not the case. The game is fundamentally flawed, and the flaws are deeply rooted within the core of the game. Band-aid fixes such as buffing harassment units are never going to be enough, but they do seem to be enough to appease much of the player base, which is a shame.
Take a look at Diablo 3. There were widespread complaints about the game, and now Blizzard has announced an expansion that is essentially rebuilding it from the ground up. If no one complained, this would not have happened. Look at the Xbox One for another example. Complacency is not going to solve anything. As if SC2 was bad before infestor broodlord and immortal sentries all in. SC2 can be fixed without going to the so called "fundamentally flawed" The game was doing great until those builds arised, viewership can't be compared with LoL and then everyone tries to find out what's wrong about it and wonder why it isn't as big as LoL If early/mid WoL is what you think we should be aiming for, I'm afraid we are looking towards different goals. You seem to want a passable, albeit highly flawed game. What I want is to make Sc2 the best game it can possibly be. Do I care if it pulls LoL sized crowds? No. I just want a good game. Thankfully, we have a game that we can look to as a point of reference (Brood War), and even without speculative theory-crafting we know several ways to improve the game because we saw them work in BW. No, this doesn't mean turning the game into BW, but it does mean learning from BW (and sc2 so far), and making the necessary adjustments. I am saying SC2 is fine until those builds arises. They just need to improve upon what we have now. BW is lucky because it went popular when the games were as difficult and challenging to play. the game is fundermentally different from bw, there is no reason to add in bw mechanics just to please the bw fans and push away the current players and potential new comers I'm not talking about adding BW mechanics, I just mean looking at things like unit design, economy design, the pace of the game, defenders advantage etc. I agree they are fundamentally different games, but these are all things you can analyze from BW and use to improve Sc2. I also agree with you. Unfortunately, most people don't see how much unrealized potential the game has. Everyone should read The breadth of Gameplay in SC2 plus Lalush's posts on the same issue. until you watch the tournament and wonder if this really leads to a better game overall. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324001also you can watch the vod and judge it yourself http://www.youtube.com/user/WiseOldSenex/videos?view=1 While I don't think this specific FRB concept is necessarily the right answer, you have to keep in mind that 1) the game is balanced around the current economic system 2) the FRB meta game is completely undeveloped it's pretty absurd to draw any conclusions based on that one tournament. which leads to my point. What you are asking is a complete revamp of the game, breaking all meta and changing unit design and may even need to go as far as revamping the macro mechanics. Do you see it happening at all when a small patch is leading to a public outcry? We can, however, go back to improve what we have now, focusing on the current problems because SC2 had proven it is a fine game before.
You could also just revert back to how the game was if changes don't work out. Why not be more ambitious?
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EPT
