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On September 30 2013 11:51 coolman123123 wrote:
The reason SC2 will never be fixed is because of all the apologists who act as though the game is fine in its current state, short of perhaps a few additions. Sadly, this is not the case. The game is fundamentally flawed, and the flaws are deeply rooted within the core of the game.
Blizzard collects all the cash.
it is Blizzard's responsibility to sort through the criticisms and compliments and figure out how to adjust the game throughout alpha, beta and post release support.
Blizzard also has the option of cancelling the game before it gets released.
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On September 30 2013 14:22 coolman123123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 14:16 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 14:10 coolman123123 wrote:On September 30 2013 13:53 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 13:27 AndAgain wrote:On September 30 2013 13:18 coolman123123 wrote:On September 30 2013 13:07 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 12:53 coolman123123 wrote:On September 30 2013 12:27 ETisME wrote:On September 30 2013 11:51 coolman123123 wrote:
The reason SC2 will never be fixed is because of all the apologists who act as though the game is fine in its current state, short of perhaps a few additions. Sadly, this is not the case. The game is fundamentally flawed, and the flaws are deeply rooted within the core of the game. Band-aid fixes such as buffing harassment units are never going to be enough, but they do seem to be enough to appease much of the player base, which is a shame.
Take a look at Diablo 3. There were widespread complaints about the game, and now Blizzard has announced an expansion that is essentially rebuilding it from the ground up. If no one complained, this would not have happened. Look at the Xbox One for another example. Complacency is not going to solve anything. As if SC2 was bad before infestor broodlord and immortal sentries all in. SC2 can be fixed without going to the so called "fundamentally flawed" The game was doing great until those builds arised, viewership can't be compared with LoL and then everyone tries to find out what's wrong about it and wonder why it isn't as big as LoL If early/mid WoL is what you think we should be aiming for, I'm afraid we are looking towards different goals. You seem to want a passable, albeit highly flawed game. What I want is to make Sc2 the best game it can possibly be. Do I care if it pulls LoL sized crowds? No. I just want a good game. Thankfully, we have a game that we can look to as a point of reference (Brood War), and even without speculative theory-crafting we know several ways to improve the game because we saw them work in BW. No, this doesn't mean turning the game into BW, but it does mean learning from BW (and sc2 so far), and making the necessary adjustments. I am saying SC2 is fine until those builds arises. They just need to improve upon what we have now. BW is lucky because it went popular when the games were as difficult and challenging to play. the game is fundermentally different from bw, there is no reason to add in bw mechanics just to please the bw fans and push away the current players and potential new comers I'm not talking about adding BW mechanics, I just mean looking at things like unit design, economy design, the pace of the game, defenders advantage etc. I agree they are fundamentally different games, but these are all things you can analyze from BW and use to improve Sc2. I also agree with you. Unfortunately, most people don't see how much unrealized potential the game has. Everyone should read The breadth of Gameplay in SC2 plus Lalush's posts on the same issue. until you watch the tournament and wonder if this really leads to a better game overall. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324001also you can watch the vod and judge it yourself http://www.youtube.com/user/WiseOldSenex/videos?view=1 While I don't think this specific FRB concept is necessarily the right answer, you have to keep in mind that 1) the game is balanced around the current economic system 2) the FRB meta game is completely undeveloped it's pretty absurd to draw any conclusions based on that one tournament. which leads to my point. What you are asking is a complete revamp of the game, breaking all meta and changing unit design and may even need to go as far as revamping the macro mechanics. Do you see it happening at all when a small patch is leading to a public outcry? We can, however, go back to improve what we have now, focusing on the current problems because SC2 had proven it is a fine game before. You could also just revert back to how the game was if changes don't work out. Why not be more ambitious?
how long are you gonna wait for the metagame to develope? how many players are going to leave because the game is completely revamped? how long until the game comes to another problem?
there is only one expansion left, just one expansion.
why would they do that instead of fixing and improving upon what we have now?
are they going to redevelop the lotv if there is a bigger problem with the game revamp?
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I would be really interested to go to a parallel universe where Blizzard made a BW HD and see the complains on that.
Pretty sure there would be threads all over the place that are saying "its a 15 Years old game why nothing new" or "Blizzard is so uncreative" or "bwaaa the game is too hard and thats killing esports". There are some flaws for sure and i was with the guys in this "save Hots" thing in the beta but i am seeing so many people whining about things just for the sake of qq´ing.
It feels like TL has become a barn with farmers yelling at each other "its bad because its not Brood War".
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On September 30 2013 14:54 USvBleakill wrote:
I would be really interested to go to a parallel universe where Blizzard made a BW HD and see the complains on that.
Pretty sure there would be threads all over the place that are saying "its a 15 Years old game why nothing new" or "Blizzard is so uncreative" or "bwaaa the game is too hard and thats killing esports". There are some flaws for sure and i was with the guys in this "save Hots" thing in the beta but i am seeing so many people whining about things just for the sake of qq´ing.
It feels like TL has become a barn with farmers yelling at each other "its bad because its not Brood War".
Homeworld HD is on the way. Let's see how that is received.
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On September 30 2013 15:04 lamprey1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 14:54 USvBleakill wrote:
I would be really interested to go to a parallel universe where Blizzard made a BW HD and see the complains on that.
Pretty sure there would be threads all over the place that are saying "its a 15 Years old game why nothing new" or "Blizzard is so uncreative" or "bwaaa the game is too hard and thats killing esports". There are some flaws for sure and i was with the guys in this "save Hots" thing in the beta but i am seeing so many people whining about things just for the sake of qq´ing.
It feels like TL has become a barn with farmers yelling at each other "its bad because its not Brood War". Homeworld HD is on the way. Let's see how that is received.
It will be bad if they don't remake the controls. It was an awesome game but you needed a phd to understand the camera controls.
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On September 30 2013 14:54 USvBleakill wrote:
I would be really interested to go to a parallel universe where Blizzard made a BW HD and see the complains on that.
Pretty sure there would be threads all over the place that are saying "its a 15 Years old game why nothing new" or "Blizzard is so uncreative" or "bwaaa the game is too hard and thats killing esports". There are some flaws for sure and i was with the guys in this "save Hots" thing in the beta but i am seeing so many people whining about things just for the sake of qq´ing.
It feels like TL has become a barn with farmers yelling at each other "its bad because its not Brood War".
BW has nothing to do with SC2 not being able to deliver.
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On September 30 2013 14:54 USvBleakill wrote:
I would be really interested to go to a parallel universe where Blizzard made a BW HD and see the complains on that.
Pretty sure there would be threads all over the place that are saying "its a 15 Years old game why nothing new" or "Blizzard is so uncreative" or "bwaaa the game is too hard and thats killing esports". There are some flaws for sure and i was with the guys in this "save Hots" thing in the beta but i am seeing so many people whining about things just for the sake of qq´ing.
It feels like TL has become a barn with farmers yelling at each other "its bad because its not Brood War".
And I would be really interested to go to a parallel universe where Blizzard actually made SC2 an awesome game. Or at least where it listened to the relevant customer feedback regarding the most glaring issues of the game.
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On September 30 2013 17:17 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 14:54 USvBleakill wrote:
I would be really interested to go to a parallel universe where Blizzard made a BW HD and see the complains on that.
Pretty sure there would be threads all over the place that are saying "its a 15 Years old game why nothing new" or "Blizzard is so uncreative" or "bwaaa the game is too hard and thats killing esports". There are some flaws for sure and i was with the guys in this "save Hots" thing in the beta but i am seeing so many people whining about things just for the sake of qq´ing.
It feels like TL has become a barn with farmers yelling at each other "its bad because its not Brood War". BW has nothing to do with SC2 not being able to deliver.
95% of this thread (and the others that are basically all the same) can be summarized with "SC2 sucks because it does things different than BW".
I never read something like "SC2 should have creeps and heros like WC3" or "why isn't it balanced like C&C with rock, paper scissors?". Almost every "idea" gameplaywise to make the game "better" is basically "make it like BW" and praising the shit out of it like it is the perfect game. When it goes this way further, some will start complaining that SC2 has free screen resolution. "BW had a much higher skill cap because it was 360p..."
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On September 30 2013 17:32 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 17:17 saddaromma wrote:On September 30 2013 14:54 USvBleakill wrote:
I would be really interested to go to a parallel universe where Blizzard made a BW HD and see the complains on that.
Pretty sure there would be threads all over the place that are saying "its a 15 Years old game why nothing new" or "Blizzard is so uncreative" or "bwaaa the game is too hard and thats killing esports". There are some flaws for sure and i was with the guys in this "save Hots" thing in the beta but i am seeing so many people whining about things just for the sake of qq´ing.
It feels like TL has become a barn with farmers yelling at each other "its bad because its not Brood War". BW has nothing to do with SC2 not being able to deliver. 95% of this thread (and the others that are basically all the same) can be summarized with "SC2 sucks because it does things different than BW". I never read something like "SC2 should have creeps and heros like WC3" or "why isn't it balanced like C&C with rock, paper scissors?". Almost every "idea" gameplaywise to make the game "better" is basically "make it like BW" and praising the shit out of it like it is the perfect game. When it goes this way further, some will start complaining that SC2 has free screen resolution. "BW had a much higher skill cap because it was 360p..."
Sry but thats just wrong. Its more like: " Sc2 isnt as good / sucks cause it does things different that made other rts games (on a starcraft webiste => bw) so much fun to watch and play. I mean i pretty much love sc2 but i can see that there are some weird decisions from blizzard in making sc2 so much different from bw (economy, highground, space controll, etc)
I just started watching broodwar on snipealot and already think that its the better game (atleast to watch).
That doesnt mean that i cant like sc2 too, but the point stands that sc2 could be much better if blizzard would change some things as they were in bw (or some other rts games).
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On September 30 2013 17:32 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 17:17 saddaromma wrote:On September 30 2013 14:54 USvBleakill wrote:
I would be really interested to go to a parallel universe where Blizzard made a BW HD and see the complains on that.
Pretty sure there would be threads all over the place that are saying "its a 15 Years old game why nothing new" or "Blizzard is so uncreative" or "bwaaa the game is too hard and thats killing esports". There are some flaws for sure and i was with the guys in this "save Hots" thing in the beta but i am seeing so many people whining about things just for the sake of qq´ing.
It feels like TL has become a barn with farmers yelling at each other "its bad because its not Brood War". BW has nothing to do with SC2 not being able to deliver. 95% of this thread (and the others that are basically all the same) can be summarized with "SC2 sucks because it does things different than BW". I never read something like "SC2 should have creeps and heros like WC3" or "why isn't it balanced like C&C with rock, paper scissors?". Almost every "idea" gameplaywise to make the game "better" is basically "make it like BW" and praising the shit out of it like it is the perfect game. When it goes this way further, some will start complaining that SC2 has free screen resolution. "BW had a much higher skill cap because it was 360p..."
You read it wrong.
SC2 has very apparent shortcomings (or imperfections). And rather than speaking out of the blue people provide decent examples of game features from succesful games like LoL and BW, which could be implemented in SC2 to make it a better game. But that doesn't necessarily mean SC2 needs to be the exact copy of said games.
And, bitching about people, who are bitching about the game, is not really helpful for the dicussion.
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On September 30 2013 18:29 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 17:32 USvBleakill wrote:On September 30 2013 17:17 saddaromma wrote:On September 30 2013 14:54 USvBleakill wrote:
I would be really interested to go to a parallel universe where Blizzard made a BW HD and see the complains on that.
Pretty sure there would be threads all over the place that are saying "its a 15 Years old game why nothing new" or "Blizzard is so uncreative" or "bwaaa the game is too hard and thats killing esports". There are some flaws for sure and i was with the guys in this "save Hots" thing in the beta but i am seeing so many people whining about things just for the sake of qq´ing.
It feels like TL has become a barn with farmers yelling at each other "its bad because its not Brood War". BW has nothing to do with SC2 not being able to deliver. 95% of this thread (and the others that are basically all the same) can be summarized with "SC2 sucks because it does things different than BW". I never read something like "SC2 should have creeps and heros like WC3" or "why isn't it balanced like C&C with rock, paper scissors?". Almost every "idea" gameplaywise to make the game "better" is basically "make it like BW" and praising the shit out of it like it is the perfect game. When it goes this way further, some will start complaining that SC2 has free screen resolution. "BW had a much higher skill cap because it was 360p..." You read it wrong. SC2 has very apparent shortcomings (or imperfections). And rather than speaking out of the blue people provide decent examples of game features from succesful games like LoL and BW, which could be implemented in SC2 to make it a better game. But that doesn't necessarily mean SC2 needs to be the exact copy of said games. And, bitching about people, who are bitching about the game, is not really helpful for the dicussion. Every game has shortcomings and imperfections. BW included.
The thing is, most of the "shortcomings" or "fundamental flaws" in SC2 are either
1.) entirely made up and in no way indicative of the way SC2 is played at the top level
2.) the poster's inability to cope with the fact that their life will never seem as awesome as it did to them in 1998/2003 whatever
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Well, the community has been voicing that concern for quite a while now. I believe MC also said something similar (which probably induced more people into blindly following what he said) and yeah, the game doesn't seem to be growing in popularity.
The comparison to BW and even WC3 is moot though, as the times are different and there are many more games to pick from. Back when it was BW and WC3, you didn't have ARTS games around, and very few MMOs (like Everquest and a handful of small MMOs, I'd say). Now, SC2 is up against games like LoL, World of Tanks and what have you. These games are just much more casual friendly and tend to attract a broader audience (why do you think Blizzard is coming up with All Stars... Seriously, I can't imagine how hard they're kicking themselves for having missed the boat on DotA).
I simply think it's time to steer away from the traditional RTS game and add a lot more novelty. Honestly, WC3 revolutionized the genre and was pretty much the precursor to ARTS games and especially LoL. I really believe that a RTS game which would mix together more components of an ARTS while keeping a lot of the core features of a RTS would be a smashing success.
Traditional RTS games like SC2 just aren't as interesting to the masses anymore. And quite frankly when you take that into the equation, SC2 is a pretty big success. It's the only RTS that's rising so high.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 30 2013 22:29 Spaylz wrote:
Well, the community has been voicing that concern for quite a while now. I believe MC also said something similar (which probably induced more people into blindly following what he said) and yeah, the game doesn't seem to be growing in popularity.
The comparison to BW and even WC3 is moot though, as the times are different and there are many more games to pick from. Back when it was BW and WC3, you didn't have ARTS games around, and very few MMOs (like Everquest and a handful of small MMOs, I'd say). Now, SC2 is up against games like LoL, World of Tanks and what have you. These games are just much more casual friendly and tend to attract a broader audience (why do you think Blizzard is coming up with All Stars... Seriously, I can't imagine how hard they're kicking themselves for having missed the boat on DotA).
I simply think it's time to steer away from the traditional RTS game and add a lot more novelty. Honestly, WC3 revolutionized the genre and was pretty much the precursor to ARTS games and especially LoL. I really believe that a RTS game which would mix together more components of an ARTS while keeping a lot of the core features of a RTS would be a smashing success.
Traditional RTS games like SC2 just aren't as interesting to the masses anymore. And quite frankly when you take that into the equation, SC2 is a pretty big success. It's the only RTS that's rising so high.
ARTS is pretty-much RTS without some of it's core features (but with heroes and what not :D). You are not expected to make a hybrid between ARTS and RTS without ending up with either RTS or ARTS.
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after reading this, I have once been reminded how perfect is BW in all the aspects.
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SC2 is a good game, but if Proleague hadn't switched to it, I would have never watched it.
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Canada11379 Posts
Back when it was BW and WC3, you didn't have ARTS games around, and very few MMOs (like Everquest and a handful of small MMOs, I'd say). Now, SC2 is up against games like LoL, World of Tanks and what have you. These games are just much more casual friendly and tend to attract a broader audience (why do you think Blizzard is coming up with All Stars.
That may very well be. But in 98, according to Patrick Wyatt the lead developer of SC, there were 80 RTS games in development. We only know about the top handful because those were the good ones. But RTS games in the late 90's had to be really, really good to distinguish themselves from all their competitors.
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On September 30 2013 22:39 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 22:29 Spaylz wrote:
Well, the community has been voicing that concern for quite a while now. I believe MC also said something similar (which probably induced more people into blindly following what he said) and yeah, the game doesn't seem to be growing in popularity.
The comparison to BW and even WC3 is moot though, as the times are different and there are many more games to pick from. Back when it was BW and WC3, you didn't have ARTS games around, and very few MMOs (like Everquest and a handful of small MMOs, I'd say). Now, SC2 is up against games like LoL, World of Tanks and what have you. These games are just much more casual friendly and tend to attract a broader audience (why do you think Blizzard is coming up with All Stars... Seriously, I can't imagine how hard they're kicking themselves for having missed the boat on DotA).
I simply think it's time to steer away from the traditional RTS game and add a lot more novelty. Honestly, WC3 revolutionized the genre and was pretty much the precursor to ARTS games and especially LoL. I really believe that a RTS game which would mix together more components of an ARTS while keeping a lot of the core features of a RTS would be a smashing success.
Traditional RTS games like SC2 just aren't as interesting to the masses anymore. And quite frankly when you take that into the equation, SC2 is a pretty big success. It's the only RTS that's rising so high. ARTS is pretty-much RTS without some of it's core features (but with heroes and what not :D). You are not expected to make a hybrid between ARTS and RTS without ending up with either RTS or ARTS.
Well, I suppose that's true. I am merely trying to slowly persuade people to go back to WC3 and revive the game as part of my bigger agenda. *evil grin*
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On September 30 2013 17:32 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 17:17 saddaromma wrote:On September 30 2013 14:54 USvBleakill wrote:
I would be really interested to go to a parallel universe where Blizzard made a BW HD and see the complains on that.
Pretty sure there would be threads all over the place that are saying "its a 15 Years old game why nothing new" or "Blizzard is so uncreative" or "bwaaa the game is too hard and thats killing esports". There are some flaws for sure and i was with the guys in this "save Hots" thing in the beta but i am seeing so many people whining about things just for the sake of qq´ing.
It feels like TL has become a barn with farmers yelling at each other "its bad because its not Brood War". BW has nothing to do with SC2 not being able to deliver. 95% of this thread (and the others that are basically all the same) can be summarized with "SC2 sucks because it does things different than BW". I never read something like "SC2 should have creeps and heros like WC3" or "why isn't it balanced like C&C with rock, paper scissors?". Almost every "idea" gameplaywise to make the game "better" is basically "make it like BW" and praising the shit out of it like it is the perfect game. When it goes this way further, some will start complaining that SC2 has free screen resolution. "BW had a much higher skill cap because it was 360p..."
that's not logical. people were stoked for sc2's release in 2010, and i don't think it was because they wanted BW2. No, I would think they wanted a game better in every way; a game which could revive the slowly degenerating starcraft scene and reach new heights. At least that was what I was expecting.
Instead people were treated to a 1 base all-in fest.
Let's be realistic and say that BW isn't the perfect game. It is, however, the best competitive pc game ever made alongside counterstrike. It is difficult to say with a straight face that sc2 is as good as BW. It just isn't. It doesn't have the same influence, the same magnitude of its competitive scene, the same appeal...the viewership numbers speaks for itself.
i know what you're gonna say, that's alright with me, that's not necessarily a problem...in other words, i'll settle for second best. okay, you have every right to. but expect me, and many others, to complain about the game being second best, especially when it could have been so much better.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
By the way, does anyone have a foreign viewership numbers for BW during it's peak in Korea (yes, i am telling it with straight face)?
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EPT
