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On September 26 2013 19:47 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 18:12 Big J wrote:On September 26 2013 17:32 Incognoto wrote:On September 25 2013 14:39 Big J wrote:On September 25 2013 03:27 nottapro wrote:
My experience with trying to introduce people to SC2.
First reaction: It looks boring.
Then months later, after constant harassing, you maybe if your lucky convince them to try it.
Playing reaction: I have no idea what I am doing, this is way to complicated, I suck at this game, nothing is happening. I can't control my units.
If your extremely lucky, they will have this horrible experience for the next 2 months and not quit, always hating the game, clueless why you keep telling it is entertaining but working their asses off to maybe one day have fun
They finally get a handle on the basics: This is fun! Lets play SC2!
This lasts for about 6-7 months until
Final reaction: I got into a higher league, its way too hard now, I have to be in lower league to have fun so I am constantly losing games. I think Ill just quit instead.
And its over. Yeah, exactly. I could name roughly 10 friends that played or were interested in SC2 but don't play it these days. The two most common reasons: -) "It's too hard to play at any reasonable level. I don't want to take part in this spam-click-fest." -) "It's too time consuming to get anywhere." Not once did I hear the comment: "Guys, my problem is that the game is badly designed for reason XYZ." .... or maybe the game is too hard to play at a reasonable level because the game is badly designed? That sort of thing goes hand in hand you know. Obviously your friends aren't going to take a monocle and a pipe and say "Yes, indeed, this game isn't enjoyable because I believe that x and y are badly designed; indeed x has this kind of effect on this match up and y makes this part of this match up coin-flippy". No! People who aren't experienced in RTS just don't think about game design, especially if they haven't played several different kinds of RTS. In fact many people who have played many RTS for many years still don't think about game design. Some people do however. I remember talking to one of the top DoW players (maybe the best? can't remember) back in Beta/early release. He was a top Terran back then and was taking games off of pros. He really didn't like the game at all, for design flaws (didn't manage to get an in depth discussion though and back then what I really wanted was to enjoy SC2). Just goes to show that just because the average scrub doesn't think about these sort of design flaws, others still do. The game as it is now is playable but it's by no means a high-quality RTS. Even at tip-top Korean Code S play, you see players who can place really high off the back of gimmicks and cheese. Maru beating Innovation was an upset for a reason. There are other examples. What really makes SC2 any good at all is the fact that so many people play it. So finding a game is a matter of seconds, watching high level tournaments is easy, the players are interesting and have personalities, the casters are top notch. EVERYTHING is good about SC2 except the game itself. The game isn't BAD but it's not ground-breaking either. Good play revolves around knowing what kind of bullshit can be thrown at you and what kind of bullshit you can throw at your opponent. If both players have equal knowledge of bullshit, then games come down to mechanics in a macro game and that's kind of really enjoyable to watch and play. And yeah, the lower of the level of play, the more effective bullshit can be. That can really hurt the casual (money-making) side of a game. OK, so let's have a look in detail about my friends and why they don't play SC2 and something else instead: Friend S: Played Protoss for 1-2months. Then went back to RPGs (he spends a ton of time on them), because he prefers RPGs and RTS (he has played every CnC, WC3, BW too; stuck to neither of them) is just a nice diversion for him, but he said they are hard and repetitive. All RTS in general. Friend L1: Would like to play a game of SC2 once in a while (between bronze-gold), but he said he's fed up with playing against kids that have too much time in their life for gaming. So he plays Desert Strike and Simulation games these days, but in general he cut down on gaming a lot. Friend L2: Played Zerg a lot towards the middle and end of WoL. Then paused, because he said it takes too much time to play SC2. Lately has returned as Terran for some games, but he said he had to stop because he becomes way to ambitous when playing SC2 and he doesn't want to spend that much time on it. Friend D: Tries every RTS game, but very casually. Watched SC2 from time to time with me. Says it is too nerdy and talks about the "good old days" of SC2 when weird cheeses were dominating. Friend T: Plays mostly shooters and played the WoL campaign. Would have loved to try SC2, but he is afraid he would spent too much time on it. Friend V: Played a lot up to platinum as Zerg 2011. Stopped playing because of ladder anxiety. Plays LoL (and a lot of other games) these days because "it's much more relaxing". Friend P: Says he can't controll his temper when playing SC2. Word for word he said that he liked the game, but it was too hard for him and LoL caters more to his skillset. Friend A: Played Zerg up to diamond level between 2010-2012. Switch back and forth between SC2, LoL and other games. Stopped playing multiplayer games outside of LAN parties due to time issues. Friend I: Didn't play the game, but used to watch GSL in 2010 and early 2011. Stopped gaming alltogether. In that periode of time and therefore didn't buy WoL. So yeah, nearly all of those people stopped playing because the game was too hard or they would have to spend too much time on it to get better (which is a very similar reason). Not one of them blamed the game's design for it and all of them actually like SC2. We got your point. But don’t forget that when we talk about SC2 we talk about it not only as a game but also as e-sport. Those who watch sc2 tournaments want this game to be harder and more demanding for players than it is now. The only e-sports I watch are BW and SC2. I also watch a lot of real sport NBA and F1 and I must tell you what these sports on professional level are difficult as hell. And nobody asks to make NBA rules easier or to lower basket to make it more casual friendly. F1 cars are the most difficult cars in the world and spectators are happy with that. The problem is that SC2 tries to be both e-sport and casual game. It’s just not possible.
Well anyone can play basketball following NBA rules at their local stadium. Basketball is immensely casual friendly.
Amateur F1, heh, I wouldn't mind trying but that's just not possible. Not due to F1 being difficult (it is, no doubt), but because you can't give everyone their own car.
So really, video games/esports are the casual-friendly sport by excellence. As far as I'm concerned, the Zerg I used to ladder with was the exact same Zerg that Soulkey is using to destroy Korea. One of the reasons esports is so interesting is that there's such a small distance between amateurs and pros. High-level amateurs today ladder with pros.
-> That's where you make a shit-ton of money as a gaming company. Riot and Valve have understood that.
The reason casuals lose interest in SC2 is that if they're going to play like pros do (I'm sure most people who ladder watch pro games for entertainment but also to pick up a few ideas), they need to LEARN everything possible little thing that could kill them. That unfortunately doesn't equate to fun. This can be seen when pros themselves criticize the game and/or retire. Not because the game is too hard. It's because the game isn't fun to play.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On September 26 2013 21:12 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 19:47 MikeMM wrote:On September 26 2013 18:12 Big J wrote:On September 26 2013 17:32 Incognoto wrote:On September 25 2013 14:39 Big J wrote:On September 25 2013 03:27 nottapro wrote:
My experience with trying to introduce people to SC2.
First reaction: It looks boring.
Then months later, after constant harassing, you maybe if your lucky convince them to try it.
Playing reaction: I have no idea what I am doing, this is way to complicated, I suck at this game, nothing is happening. I can't control my units.
If your extremely lucky, they will have this horrible experience for the next 2 months and not quit, always hating the game, clueless why you keep telling it is entertaining but working their asses off to maybe one day have fun
They finally get a handle on the basics: This is fun! Lets play SC2!
This lasts for about 6-7 months until
Final reaction: I got into a higher league, its way too hard now, I have to be in lower league to have fun so I am constantly losing games. I think Ill just quit instead.
And its over. Yeah, exactly. I could name roughly 10 friends that played or were interested in SC2 but don't play it these days. The two most common reasons: -) "It's too hard to play at any reasonable level. I don't want to take part in this spam-click-fest." -) "It's too time consuming to get anywhere." Not once did I hear the comment: "Guys, my problem is that the game is badly designed for reason XYZ." .... or maybe the game is too hard to play at a reasonable level because the game is badly designed? That sort of thing goes hand in hand you know. Obviously your friends aren't going to take a monocle and a pipe and say "Yes, indeed, this game isn't enjoyable because I believe that x and y are badly designed; indeed x has this kind of effect on this match up and y makes this part of this match up coin-flippy". No! People who aren't experienced in RTS just don't think about game design, especially if they haven't played several different kinds of RTS. In fact many people who have played many RTS for many years still don't think about game design. Some people do however. I remember talking to one of the top DoW players (maybe the best? can't remember) back in Beta/early release. He was a top Terran back then and was taking games off of pros. He really didn't like the game at all, for design flaws (didn't manage to get an in depth discussion though and back then what I really wanted was to enjoy SC2). Just goes to show that just because the average scrub doesn't think about these sort of design flaws, others still do. The game as it is now is playable but it's by no means a high-quality RTS. Even at tip-top Korean Code S play, you see players who can place really high off the back of gimmicks and cheese. Maru beating Innovation was an upset for a reason. There are other examples. What really makes SC2 any good at all is the fact that so many people play it. So finding a game is a matter of seconds, watching high level tournaments is easy, the players are interesting and have personalities, the casters are top notch. EVERYTHING is good about SC2 except the game itself. The game isn't BAD but it's not ground-breaking either. Good play revolves around knowing what kind of bullshit can be thrown at you and what kind of bullshit you can throw at your opponent. If both players have equal knowledge of bullshit, then games come down to mechanics in a macro game and that's kind of really enjoyable to watch and play. And yeah, the lower of the level of play, the more effective bullshit can be. That can really hurt the casual (money-making) side of a game. OK, so let's have a look in detail about my friends and why they don't play SC2 and something else instead: Friend S: Played Protoss for 1-2months. Then went back to RPGs (he spends a ton of time on them), because he prefers RPGs and RTS (he has played every CnC, WC3, BW too; stuck to neither of them) is just a nice diversion for him, but he said they are hard and repetitive. All RTS in general. Friend L1: Would like to play a game of SC2 once in a while (between bronze-gold), but he said he's fed up with playing against kids that have too much time in their life for gaming. So he plays Desert Strike and Simulation games these days, but in general he cut down on gaming a lot. Friend L2: Played Zerg a lot towards the middle and end of WoL. Then paused, because he said it takes too much time to play SC2. Lately has returned as Terran for some games, but he said he had to stop because he becomes way to ambitous when playing SC2 and he doesn't want to spend that much time on it. Friend D: Tries every RTS game, but very casually. Watched SC2 from time to time with me. Says it is too nerdy and talks about the "good old days" of SC2 when weird cheeses were dominating. Friend T: Plays mostly shooters and played the WoL campaign. Would have loved to try SC2, but he is afraid he would spent too much time on it. Friend V: Played a lot up to platinum as Zerg 2011. Stopped playing because of ladder anxiety. Plays LoL (and a lot of other games) these days because "it's much more relaxing". Friend P: Says he can't controll his temper when playing SC2. Word for word he said that he liked the game, but it was too hard for him and LoL caters more to his skillset. Friend A: Played Zerg up to diamond level between 2010-2012. Switch back and forth between SC2, LoL and other games. Stopped playing multiplayer games outside of LAN parties due to time issues. Friend I: Didn't play the game, but used to watch GSL in 2010 and early 2011. Stopped gaming alltogether. In that periode of time and therefore didn't buy WoL. So yeah, nearly all of those people stopped playing because the game was too hard or they would have to spend too much time on it to get better (which is a very similar reason). Not one of them blamed the game's design for it and all of them actually like SC2. We got your point. But don’t forget that when we talk about SC2 we talk about it not only as a game but also as e-sport. Those who watch sc2 tournaments want this game to be harder and more demanding for players than it is now. The only e-sports I watch are BW and SC2. I also watch a lot of real sport NBA and F1 and I must tell you what these sports on professional level are difficult as hell. And nobody asks to make NBA rules easier or to lower basket to make it more casual friendly. F1 cars are the most difficult cars in the world and spectators are happy with that. The problem is that SC2 tries to be both e-sport and casual game. It’s just not possible. Well anyone can play basketball following NBA rules at their local stadium. Basketball is immensely casual friendly. Amateur F1, heh, I wouldn't mind trying but that's just not possible. Not due to F1 being difficult (it is, no doubt), but because you can't give everyone their own car. So really, video games/esports are the casual-friendly sport by excellence. As far as I'm concerned, the Zerg I used to ladder with was the exact same Zerg that Soulkey is using to destroy Korea. One of the reasons esports is so interesting is that there's such a small distance between amateurs and pros. High-level amateurs today ladder with pros. -> That's where you make a shit-ton of money as a gaming company. Riot and Valve have understood that. The reason casuals lose interest in SC2 is that if they're going to play like pros do (I'm sure most people who ladder watch pro games for entertainment but also to pick up a few ideas), they need to LEARN everything possible little thing that could kill them. That unfortunately doesn't equate to fun. This can be seen when pros themselves criticize the game and/or retire. Not because the game is too hard. It's because the game isn't fun to play.
Anyone can but rarely anyone does.
It’s really difficult to play basketball for 48 minutes.
So when playing for fun the game is always shorter.
And when amateurs play they rarely play with arbiter thus they don’t follow strictly all the rules.
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On September 26 2013 19:47 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 18:12 Big J wrote:On September 26 2013 17:32 Incognoto wrote:On September 25 2013 14:39 Big J wrote:On September 25 2013 03:27 nottapro wrote:
My experience with trying to introduce people to SC2.
First reaction: It looks boring.
Then months later, after constant harassing, you maybe if your lucky convince them to try it.
Playing reaction: I have no idea what I am doing, this is way to complicated, I suck at this game, nothing is happening. I can't control my units.
If your extremely lucky, they will have this horrible experience for the next 2 months and not quit, always hating the game, clueless why you keep telling it is entertaining but working their asses off to maybe one day have fun
They finally get a handle on the basics: This is fun! Lets play SC2!
This lasts for about 6-7 months until
Final reaction: I got into a higher league, its way too hard now, I have to be in lower league to have fun so I am constantly losing games. I think Ill just quit instead.
And its over. Yeah, exactly. I could name roughly 10 friends that played or were interested in SC2 but don't play it these days. The two most common reasons: -) "It's too hard to play at any reasonable level. I don't want to take part in this spam-click-fest." -) "It's too time consuming to get anywhere." Not once did I hear the comment: "Guys, my problem is that the game is badly designed for reason XYZ." .... or maybe the game is too hard to play at a reasonable level because the game is badly designed? That sort of thing goes hand in hand you know. Obviously your friends aren't going to take a monocle and a pipe and say "Yes, indeed, this game isn't enjoyable because I believe that x and y are badly designed; indeed x has this kind of effect on this match up and y makes this part of this match up coin-flippy". No! People who aren't experienced in RTS just don't think about game design, especially if they haven't played several different kinds of RTS. In fact many people who have played many RTS for many years still don't think about game design. Some people do however. I remember talking to one of the top DoW players (maybe the best? can't remember) back in Beta/early release. He was a top Terran back then and was taking games off of pros. He really didn't like the game at all, for design flaws (didn't manage to get an in depth discussion though and back then what I really wanted was to enjoy SC2). Just goes to show that just because the average scrub doesn't think about these sort of design flaws, others still do. The game as it is now is playable but it's by no means a high-quality RTS. Even at tip-top Korean Code S play, you see players who can place really high off the back of gimmicks and cheese. Maru beating Innovation was an upset for a reason. There are other examples. What really makes SC2 any good at all is the fact that so many people play it. So finding a game is a matter of seconds, watching high level tournaments is easy, the players are interesting and have personalities, the casters are top notch. EVERYTHING is good about SC2 except the game itself. The game isn't BAD but it's not ground-breaking either. Good play revolves around knowing what kind of bullshit can be thrown at you and what kind of bullshit you can throw at your opponent. If both players have equal knowledge of bullshit, then games come down to mechanics in a macro game and that's kind of really enjoyable to watch and play. And yeah, the lower of the level of play, the more effective bullshit can be. That can really hurt the casual (money-making) side of a game. OK, so let's have a look in detail about my friends and why they don't play SC2 and something else instead: Friend S: Played Protoss for 1-2months. Then went back to RPGs (he spends a ton of time on them), because he prefers RPGs and RTS (he has played every CnC, WC3, BW too; stuck to neither of them) is just a nice diversion for him, but he said they are hard and repetitive. All RTS in general. Friend L1: Would like to play a game of SC2 once in a while (between bronze-gold), but he said he's fed up with playing against kids that have too much time in their life for gaming. So he plays Desert Strike and Simulation games these days, but in general he cut down on gaming a lot. Friend L2: Played Zerg a lot towards the middle and end of WoL. Then paused, because he said it takes too much time to play SC2. Lately has returned as Terran for some games, but he said he had to stop because he becomes way to ambitous when playing SC2 and he doesn't want to spend that much time on it. Friend D: Tries every RTS game, but very casually. Watched SC2 from time to time with me. Says it is too nerdy and talks about the "good old days" of SC2 when weird cheeses were dominating. Friend T: Plays mostly shooters and played the WoL campaign. Would have loved to try SC2, but he is afraid he would spent too much time on it. Friend V: Played a lot up to platinum as Zerg 2011. Stopped playing because of ladder anxiety. Plays LoL (and a lot of other games) these days because "it's much more relaxing". Friend P: Says he can't controll his temper when playing SC2. Word for word he said that he liked the game, but it was too hard for him and LoL caters more to his skillset. Friend A: Played Zerg up to diamond level between 2010-2012. Switch back and forth between SC2, LoL and other games. Stopped playing multiplayer games outside of LAN parties due to time issues. Friend I: Didn't play the game, but used to watch GSL in 2010 and early 2011. Stopped gaming alltogether. In that periode of time and therefore didn't buy WoL. So yeah, nearly all of those people stopped playing because the game was too hard or they would have to spend too much time on it to get better (which is a very similar reason). Not one of them blamed the game's design for it and all of them actually like SC2. We got your point. But don’t forget that when we talk about SC2 we talk about it not only as a game but also as e-sport. Those who watch sc2 tournaments want this game to be harder and more demanding for players than it is now. The only e-sports I watch are BW and SC2. I also watch a lot of real sport NBA and F1 and I must tell you what these sports on professional level are difficult as hell. And nobody asks to make NBA rules easier or to lower basket to make it more casual friendly. F1 cars are the most difficult cars in the world and spectators are happy with that. The problem is that SC2 tries to be both e-sport and casual game. It’s just not possible.
First I think LoL shows that you CAN be both casual and e-sport.
And i really don't think that it is true that everyone wants SC2 to be harder. I think, especially on Team Liquid, many people here the great stories of BW, see the decline of SC2 (doesn't matter for what reason) and think "shit shit shit somethings wrong with the game, quick clone the game i remember being super successful."
I've never understood why people haven't tried to revive BW using SC2 to get players that like a really hard, skill based RTS. There are enough of the younger generation (like me born 1994 now 19) that didn't really know of BW and I am really interested in trying it BECAUSE OF SC2. I am sure there are many more, so instead of wishing SC2 becomes like BW, why not try and bring some competition back to BW (the foreign scene was never that big, at least that's what a lot of people say).
Regarding SC2 I think making it harder isn't the solution. While it would be "kinda cool" to not be able to do what the pros do, I think LoL is showing that you need a high player base, making a game hard will not achieve that.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On September 26 2013 21:38 scares wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 19:47 MikeMM wrote:On September 26 2013 18:12 Big J wrote:On September 26 2013 17:32 Incognoto wrote:On September 25 2013 14:39 Big J wrote:On September 25 2013 03:27 nottapro wrote:
My experience with trying to introduce people to SC2.
First reaction: It looks boring.
Then months later, after constant harassing, you maybe if your lucky convince them to try it.
Playing reaction: I have no idea what I am doing, this is way to complicated, I suck at this game, nothing is happening. I can't control my units.
If your extremely lucky, they will have this horrible experience for the next 2 months and not quit, always hating the game, clueless why you keep telling it is entertaining but working their asses off to maybe one day have fun
They finally get a handle on the basics: This is fun! Lets play SC2!
This lasts for about 6-7 months until
Final reaction: I got into a higher league, its way too hard now, I have to be in lower league to have fun so I am constantly losing games. I think Ill just quit instead.
And its over. Yeah, exactly. I could name roughly 10 friends that played or were interested in SC2 but don't play it these days. The two most common reasons: -) "It's too hard to play at any reasonable level. I don't want to take part in this spam-click-fest." -) "It's too time consuming to get anywhere." Not once did I hear the comment: "Guys, my problem is that the game is badly designed for reason XYZ." .... or maybe the game is too hard to play at a reasonable level because the game is badly designed? That sort of thing goes hand in hand you know. Obviously your friends aren't going to take a monocle and a pipe and say "Yes, indeed, this game isn't enjoyable because I believe that x and y are badly designed; indeed x has this kind of effect on this match up and y makes this part of this match up coin-flippy". No! People who aren't experienced in RTS just don't think about game design, especially if they haven't played several different kinds of RTS. In fact many people who have played many RTS for many years still don't think about game design. Some people do however. I remember talking to one of the top DoW players (maybe the best? can't remember) back in Beta/early release. He was a top Terran back then and was taking games off of pros. He really didn't like the game at all, for design flaws (didn't manage to get an in depth discussion though and back then what I really wanted was to enjoy SC2). Just goes to show that just because the average scrub doesn't think about these sort of design flaws, others still do. The game as it is now is playable but it's by no means a high-quality RTS. Even at tip-top Korean Code S play, you see players who can place really high off the back of gimmicks and cheese. Maru beating Innovation was an upset for a reason. There are other examples. What really makes SC2 any good at all is the fact that so many people play it. So finding a game is a matter of seconds, watching high level tournaments is easy, the players are interesting and have personalities, the casters are top notch. EVERYTHING is good about SC2 except the game itself. The game isn't BAD but it's not ground-breaking either. Good play revolves around knowing what kind of bullshit can be thrown at you and what kind of bullshit you can throw at your opponent. If both players have equal knowledge of bullshit, then games come down to mechanics in a macro game and that's kind of really enjoyable to watch and play. And yeah, the lower of the level of play, the more effective bullshit can be. That can really hurt the casual (money-making) side of a game. OK, so let's have a look in detail about my friends and why they don't play SC2 and something else instead: Friend S: Played Protoss for 1-2months. Then went back to RPGs (he spends a ton of time on them), because he prefers RPGs and RTS (he has played every CnC, WC3, BW too; stuck to neither of them) is just a nice diversion for him, but he said they are hard and repetitive. All RTS in general. Friend L1: Would like to play a game of SC2 once in a while (between bronze-gold), but he said he's fed up with playing against kids that have too much time in their life for gaming. So he plays Desert Strike and Simulation games these days, but in general he cut down on gaming a lot. Friend L2: Played Zerg a lot towards the middle and end of WoL. Then paused, because he said it takes too much time to play SC2. Lately has returned as Terran for some games, but he said he had to stop because he becomes way to ambitous when playing SC2 and he doesn't want to spend that much time on it. Friend D: Tries every RTS game, but very casually. Watched SC2 from time to time with me. Says it is too nerdy and talks about the "good old days" of SC2 when weird cheeses were dominating. Friend T: Plays mostly shooters and played the WoL campaign. Would have loved to try SC2, but he is afraid he would spent too much time on it. Friend V: Played a lot up to platinum as Zerg 2011. Stopped playing because of ladder anxiety. Plays LoL (and a lot of other games) these days because "it's much more relaxing". Friend P: Says he can't controll his temper when playing SC2. Word for word he said that he liked the game, but it was too hard for him and LoL caters more to his skillset. Friend A: Played Zerg up to diamond level between 2010-2012. Switch back and forth between SC2, LoL and other games. Stopped playing multiplayer games outside of LAN parties due to time issues. Friend I: Didn't play the game, but used to watch GSL in 2010 and early 2011. Stopped gaming alltogether. In that periode of time and therefore didn't buy WoL. So yeah, nearly all of those people stopped playing because the game was too hard or they would have to spend too much time on it to get better (which is a very similar reason). Not one of them blamed the game's design for it and all of them actually like SC2. We got your point. But don’t forget that when we talk about SC2 we talk about it not only as a game but also as e-sport. Those who watch sc2 tournaments want this game to be harder and more demanding for players than it is now. The only e-sports I watch are BW and SC2. I also watch a lot of real sport NBA and F1 and I must tell you what these sports on professional level are difficult as hell. And nobody asks to make NBA rules easier or to lower basket to make it more casual friendly. F1 cars are the most difficult cars in the world and spectators are happy with that. The problem is that SC2 tries to be both e-sport and casual game. It’s just not possible. First I think LoL shows that you CAN be both casual and e-sport.And i really don't think that it is true that everyone wants SC2 to be harder. I think, especially on Team Liquid, many people here the great stories of BW, see the decline of SC2 (doesn't matter for what reason) and think "shit shit shit somethings wrong with the game, quick clone the game i remember being super successful." I've never understood why people haven't tried to revive BW using SC2 to get players that like a really hard, skill based RTS. There are enough of the younger generation (like me born 1994 now 19) that didn't really know of BW and I am really interested in trying it BECAUSE OF SC2. I am sure there are many more, so instead of wishing SC2 becomes like BW, why not try and bring some competition back to BW (the foreign scene was never that big, at least that's what a lot of people say). Regarding SC2 I think making it harder isn't the solution. While it would be "kinda cool" to not be able to do what the pros do, I think LoL is showing that you need a high player base, making a game hard will not achieve that.
I don’t follow LOL but is it really successful as e-sport?
There are many LOL tournaments?
World and national championships?
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On September 26 2013 21:12 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 19:47 MikeMM wrote:On September 26 2013 18:12 Big J wrote:On September 26 2013 17:32 Incognoto wrote:On September 25 2013 14:39 Big J wrote:On September 25 2013 03:27 nottapro wrote:
My experience with trying to introduce people to SC2.
First reaction: It looks boring.
Then months later, after constant harassing, you maybe if your lucky convince them to try it.
Playing reaction: I have no idea what I am doing, this is way to complicated, I suck at this game, nothing is happening. I can't control my units.
If your extremely lucky, they will have this horrible experience for the next 2 months and not quit, always hating the game, clueless why you keep telling it is entertaining but working their asses off to maybe one day have fun
They finally get a handle on the basics: This is fun! Lets play SC2!
This lasts for about 6-7 months until
Final reaction: I got into a higher league, its way too hard now, I have to be in lower league to have fun so I am constantly losing games. I think Ill just quit instead.
And its over. Yeah, exactly. I could name roughly 10 friends that played or were interested in SC2 but don't play it these days. The two most common reasons: -) "It's too hard to play at any reasonable level. I don't want to take part in this spam-click-fest." -) "It's too time consuming to get anywhere." Not once did I hear the comment: "Guys, my problem is that the game is badly designed for reason XYZ." .... or maybe the game is too hard to play at a reasonable level because the game is badly designed? That sort of thing goes hand in hand you know. Obviously your friends aren't going to take a monocle and a pipe and say "Yes, indeed, this game isn't enjoyable because I believe that x and y are badly designed; indeed x has this kind of effect on this match up and y makes this part of this match up coin-flippy". No! People who aren't experienced in RTS just don't think about game design, especially if they haven't played several different kinds of RTS. In fact many people who have played many RTS for many years still don't think about game design. Some people do however. I remember talking to one of the top DoW players (maybe the best? can't remember) back in Beta/early release. He was a top Terran back then and was taking games off of pros. He really didn't like the game at all, for design flaws (didn't manage to get an in depth discussion though and back then what I really wanted was to enjoy SC2). Just goes to show that just because the average scrub doesn't think about these sort of design flaws, others still do. The game as it is now is playable but it's by no means a high-quality RTS. Even at tip-top Korean Code S play, you see players who can place really high off the back of gimmicks and cheese. Maru beating Innovation was an upset for a reason. There are other examples. What really makes SC2 any good at all is the fact that so many people play it. So finding a game is a matter of seconds, watching high level tournaments is easy, the players are interesting and have personalities, the casters are top notch. EVERYTHING is good about SC2 except the game itself. The game isn't BAD but it's not ground-breaking either. Good play revolves around knowing what kind of bullshit can be thrown at you and what kind of bullshit you can throw at your opponent. If both players have equal knowledge of bullshit, then games come down to mechanics in a macro game and that's kind of really enjoyable to watch and play. And yeah, the lower of the level of play, the more effective bullshit can be. That can really hurt the casual (money-making) side of a game. OK, so let's have a look in detail about my friends and why they don't play SC2 and something else instead: Friend S: Played Protoss for 1-2months. Then went back to RPGs (he spends a ton of time on them), because he prefers RPGs and RTS (he has played every CnC, WC3, BW too; stuck to neither of them) is just a nice diversion for him, but he said they are hard and repetitive. All RTS in general. Friend L1: Would like to play a game of SC2 once in a while (between bronze-gold), but he said he's fed up with playing against kids that have too much time in their life for gaming. So he plays Desert Strike and Simulation games these days, but in general he cut down on gaming a lot. Friend L2: Played Zerg a lot towards the middle and end of WoL. Then paused, because he said it takes too much time to play SC2. Lately has returned as Terran for some games, but he said he had to stop because he becomes way to ambitous when playing SC2 and he doesn't want to spend that much time on it. Friend D: Tries every RTS game, but very casually. Watched SC2 from time to time with me. Says it is too nerdy and talks about the "good old days" of SC2 when weird cheeses were dominating. Friend T: Plays mostly shooters and played the WoL campaign. Would have loved to try SC2, but he is afraid he would spent too much time on it. Friend V: Played a lot up to platinum as Zerg 2011. Stopped playing because of ladder anxiety. Plays LoL (and a lot of other games) these days because "it's much more relaxing". Friend P: Says he can't controll his temper when playing SC2. Word for word he said that he liked the game, but it was too hard for him and LoL caters more to his skillset. Friend A: Played Zerg up to diamond level between 2010-2012. Switch back and forth between SC2, LoL and other games. Stopped playing multiplayer games outside of LAN parties due to time issues. Friend I: Didn't play the game, but used to watch GSL in 2010 and early 2011. Stopped gaming alltogether. In that periode of time and therefore didn't buy WoL. So yeah, nearly all of those people stopped playing because the game was too hard or they would have to spend too much time on it to get better (which is a very similar reason). Not one of them blamed the game's design for it and all of them actually like SC2. We got your point. But don’t forget that when we talk about SC2 we talk about it not only as a game but also as e-sport. Those who watch sc2 tournaments want this game to be harder and more demanding for players than it is now. The only e-sports I watch are BW and SC2. I also watch a lot of real sport NBA and F1 and I must tell you what these sports on professional level are difficult as hell. And nobody asks to make NBA rules easier or to lower basket to make it more casual friendly. F1 cars are the most difficult cars in the world and spectators are happy with that. The problem is that SC2 tries to be both e-sport and casual game. It’s just not possible. Well anyone can play basketball following NBA rules at their local stadium. Basketball is immensely casual friendly. Amateur F1, heh, I wouldn't mind trying but that's just not possible. Not due to F1 being difficult (it is, no doubt), but because you can't give everyone their own car. So really, video games/esports are the casual-friendly sport by excellence. As far as I'm concerned, the Zerg I used to ladder with was the exact same Zerg that Soulkey is using to destroy Korea. One of the reasons esports is so interesting is that there's such a small distance between amateurs and pros. High-level amateurs today ladder with pros. -> That's where you make a shit-ton of money as a gaming company. Riot and Valve have understood that. The reason casuals lose interest in SC2 is that if they're going to play like pros do (I'm sure most people who ladder watch pro games for entertainment but also to pick up a few ideas), they need to LEARN everything possible little thing that could kill them. That unfortunately doesn't equate to fun. This can be seen when pros themselves criticize the game and/or retire. Not because the game is too hard. It's because the game isn't fun to play.
But the casuals could always have some handicap settings of a slower game and some other "easy mode" options. They can always do that and the game should always be challenging as a standard to provide more competitive skill ceiling.
Casuals can just play and forget but aspiring players can always work their game and be better, reach pro level of skill because of the game difficulty.
When 8bit games like 1st came out they are hard as hell compared to games "these days". Nobody complained? well whiney people would, I remember there was a japanese version and an american version. Japanese version does not have any added handicap and american version did have added stuff.
Cheat codes were introduced, remember contra with all the fireball ready level 1 toons and 30 lives?
A game can still be as competitive and be as casual to the casual crowd with the right added handicap.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 26 2013 21:57 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 21:38 scares wrote:On September 26 2013 19:47 MikeMM wrote:On September 26 2013 18:12 Big J wrote:On September 26 2013 17:32 Incognoto wrote:On September 25 2013 14:39 Big J wrote:On September 25 2013 03:27 nottapro wrote:
My experience with trying to introduce people to SC2.
First reaction: It looks boring.
Then months later, after constant harassing, you maybe if your lucky convince them to try it.
Playing reaction: I have no idea what I am doing, this is way to complicated, I suck at this game, nothing is happening. I can't control my units.
If your extremely lucky, they will have this horrible experience for the next 2 months and not quit, always hating the game, clueless why you keep telling it is entertaining but working their asses off to maybe one day have fun
They finally get a handle on the basics: This is fun! Lets play SC2!
This lasts for about 6-7 months until
Final reaction: I got into a higher league, its way too hard now, I have to be in lower league to have fun so I am constantly losing games. I think Ill just quit instead.
And its over. Yeah, exactly. I could name roughly 10 friends that played or were interested in SC2 but don't play it these days. The two most common reasons: -) "It's too hard to play at any reasonable level. I don't want to take part in this spam-click-fest." -) "It's too time consuming to get anywhere." Not once did I hear the comment: "Guys, my problem is that the game is badly designed for reason XYZ." .... or maybe the game is too hard to play at a reasonable level because the game is badly designed? That sort of thing goes hand in hand you know. Obviously your friends aren't going to take a monocle and a pipe and say "Yes, indeed, this game isn't enjoyable because I believe that x and y are badly designed; indeed x has this kind of effect on this match up and y makes this part of this match up coin-flippy". No! People who aren't experienced in RTS just don't think about game design, especially if they haven't played several different kinds of RTS. In fact many people who have played many RTS for many years still don't think about game design. Some people do however. I remember talking to one of the top DoW players (maybe the best? can't remember) back in Beta/early release. He was a top Terran back then and was taking games off of pros. He really didn't like the game at all, for design flaws (didn't manage to get an in depth discussion though and back then what I really wanted was to enjoy SC2). Just goes to show that just because the average scrub doesn't think about these sort of design flaws, others still do. The game as it is now is playable but it's by no means a high-quality RTS. Even at tip-top Korean Code S play, you see players who can place really high off the back of gimmicks and cheese. Maru beating Innovation was an upset for a reason. There are other examples. What really makes SC2 any good at all is the fact that so many people play it. So finding a game is a matter of seconds, watching high level tournaments is easy, the players are interesting and have personalities, the casters are top notch. EVERYTHING is good about SC2 except the game itself. The game isn't BAD but it's not ground-breaking either. Good play revolves around knowing what kind of bullshit can be thrown at you and what kind of bullshit you can throw at your opponent. If both players have equal knowledge of bullshit, then games come down to mechanics in a macro game and that's kind of really enjoyable to watch and play. And yeah, the lower of the level of play, the more effective bullshit can be. That can really hurt the casual (money-making) side of a game. OK, so let's have a look in detail about my friends and why they don't play SC2 and something else instead: Friend S: Played Protoss for 1-2months. Then went back to RPGs (he spends a ton of time on them), because he prefers RPGs and RTS (he has played every CnC, WC3, BW too; stuck to neither of them) is just a nice diversion for him, but he said they are hard and repetitive. All RTS in general. Friend L1: Would like to play a game of SC2 once in a while (between bronze-gold), but he said he's fed up with playing against kids that have too much time in their life for gaming. So he plays Desert Strike and Simulation games these days, but in general he cut down on gaming a lot. Friend L2: Played Zerg a lot towards the middle and end of WoL. Then paused, because he said it takes too much time to play SC2. Lately has returned as Terran for some games, but he said he had to stop because he becomes way to ambitous when playing SC2 and he doesn't want to spend that much time on it. Friend D: Tries every RTS game, but very casually. Watched SC2 from time to time with me. Says it is too nerdy and talks about the "good old days" of SC2 when weird cheeses were dominating. Friend T: Plays mostly shooters and played the WoL campaign. Would have loved to try SC2, but he is afraid he would spent too much time on it. Friend V: Played a lot up to platinum as Zerg 2011. Stopped playing because of ladder anxiety. Plays LoL (and a lot of other games) these days because "it's much more relaxing". Friend P: Says he can't controll his temper when playing SC2. Word for word he said that he liked the game, but it was too hard for him and LoL caters more to his skillset. Friend A: Played Zerg up to diamond level between 2010-2012. Switch back and forth between SC2, LoL and other games. Stopped playing multiplayer games outside of LAN parties due to time issues. Friend I: Didn't play the game, but used to watch GSL in 2010 and early 2011. Stopped gaming alltogether. In that periode of time and therefore didn't buy WoL. So yeah, nearly all of those people stopped playing because the game was too hard or they would have to spend too much time on it to get better (which is a very similar reason). Not one of them blamed the game's design for it and all of them actually like SC2. We got your point. But don’t forget that when we talk about SC2 we talk about it not only as a game but also as e-sport. Those who watch sc2 tournaments want this game to be harder and more demanding for players than it is now. The only e-sports I watch are BW and SC2. I also watch a lot of real sport NBA and F1 and I must tell you what these sports on professional level are difficult as hell. And nobody asks to make NBA rules easier or to lower basket to make it more casual friendly. F1 cars are the most difficult cars in the world and spectators are happy with that. The problem is that SC2 tries to be both e-sport and casual game. It’s just not possible. First I think LoL shows that you CAN be both casual and e-sport.And i really don't think that it is true that everyone wants SC2 to be harder. I think, especially on Team Liquid, many people here the great stories of BW, see the decline of SC2 (doesn't matter for what reason) and think "shit shit shit somethings wrong with the game, quick clone the game i remember being super successful." I've never understood why people haven't tried to revive BW using SC2 to get players that like a really hard, skill based RTS. There are enough of the younger generation (like me born 1994 now 19) that didn't really know of BW and I am really interested in trying it BECAUSE OF SC2. I am sure there are many more, so instead of wishing SC2 becomes like BW, why not try and bring some competition back to BW (the foreign scene was never that big, at least that's what a lot of people say). Regarding SC2 I think making it harder isn't the solution. While it would be "kinda cool" to not be able to do what the pros do, I think LoL is showing that you need a high player base, making a game hard will not achieve that. I don’t follow LOL but is it really successful as e-sport? There are many LOL tournaments? World and national championships?
I remember you mentioning LoL once, so you have a clue about it, but just saying: check twitch's viewer statistic, if it tells anything to you.
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On September 26 2013 21:57 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 21:38 scares wrote:On September 26 2013 19:47 MikeMM wrote:On September 26 2013 18:12 Big J wrote:On September 26 2013 17:32 Incognoto wrote:On September 25 2013 14:39 Big J wrote:On September 25 2013 03:27 nottapro wrote:
My experience with trying to introduce people to SC2.
First reaction: It looks boring.
Then months later, after constant harassing, you maybe if your lucky convince them to try it.
Playing reaction: I have no idea what I am doing, this is way to complicated, I suck at this game, nothing is happening. I can't control my units.
If your extremely lucky, they will have this horrible experience for the next 2 months and not quit, always hating the game, clueless why you keep telling it is entertaining but working their asses off to maybe one day have fun
They finally get a handle on the basics: This is fun! Lets play SC2!
This lasts for about 6-7 months until
Final reaction: I got into a higher league, its way too hard now, I have to be in lower league to have fun so I am constantly losing games. I think Ill just quit instead.
And its over. Yeah, exactly. I could name roughly 10 friends that played or were interested in SC2 but don't play it these days. The two most common reasons: -) "It's too hard to play at any reasonable level. I don't want to take part in this spam-click-fest." -) "It's too time consuming to get anywhere." Not once did I hear the comment: "Guys, my problem is that the game is badly designed for reason XYZ." .... or maybe the game is too hard to play at a reasonable level because the game is badly designed? That sort of thing goes hand in hand you know. Obviously your friends aren't going to take a monocle and a pipe and say "Yes, indeed, this game isn't enjoyable because I believe that x and y are badly designed; indeed x has this kind of effect on this match up and y makes this part of this match up coin-flippy". No! People who aren't experienced in RTS just don't think about game design, especially if they haven't played several different kinds of RTS. In fact many people who have played many RTS for many years still don't think about game design. Some people do however. I remember talking to one of the top DoW players (maybe the best? can't remember) back in Beta/early release. He was a top Terran back then and was taking games off of pros. He really didn't like the game at all, for design flaws (didn't manage to get an in depth discussion though and back then what I really wanted was to enjoy SC2). Just goes to show that just because the average scrub doesn't think about these sort of design flaws, others still do. The game as it is now is playable but it's by no means a high-quality RTS. Even at tip-top Korean Code S play, you see players who can place really high off the back of gimmicks and cheese. Maru beating Innovation was an upset for a reason. There are other examples. What really makes SC2 any good at all is the fact that so many people play it. So finding a game is a matter of seconds, watching high level tournaments is easy, the players are interesting and have personalities, the casters are top notch. EVERYTHING is good about SC2 except the game itself. The game isn't BAD but it's not ground-breaking either. Good play revolves around knowing what kind of bullshit can be thrown at you and what kind of bullshit you can throw at your opponent. If both players have equal knowledge of bullshit, then games come down to mechanics in a macro game and that's kind of really enjoyable to watch and play. And yeah, the lower of the level of play, the more effective bullshit can be. That can really hurt the casual (money-making) side of a game. OK, so let's have a look in detail about my friends and why they don't play SC2 and something else instead: Friend S: Played Protoss for 1-2months. Then went back to RPGs (he spends a ton of time on them), because he prefers RPGs and RTS (he has played every CnC, WC3, BW too; stuck to neither of them) is just a nice diversion for him, but he said they are hard and repetitive. All RTS in general. Friend L1: Would like to play a game of SC2 once in a while (between bronze-gold), but he said he's fed up with playing against kids that have too much time in their life for gaming. So he plays Desert Strike and Simulation games these days, but in general he cut down on gaming a lot. Friend L2: Played Zerg a lot towards the middle and end of WoL. Then paused, because he said it takes too much time to play SC2. Lately has returned as Terran for some games, but he said he had to stop because he becomes way to ambitous when playing SC2 and he doesn't want to spend that much time on it. Friend D: Tries every RTS game, but very casually. Watched SC2 from time to time with me. Says it is too nerdy and talks about the "good old days" of SC2 when weird cheeses were dominating. Friend T: Plays mostly shooters and played the WoL campaign. Would have loved to try SC2, but he is afraid he would spent too much time on it. Friend V: Played a lot up to platinum as Zerg 2011. Stopped playing because of ladder anxiety. Plays LoL (and a lot of other games) these days because "it's much more relaxing". Friend P: Says he can't controll his temper when playing SC2. Word for word he said that he liked the game, but it was too hard for him and LoL caters more to his skillset. Friend A: Played Zerg up to diamond level between 2010-2012. Switch back and forth between SC2, LoL and other games. Stopped playing multiplayer games outside of LAN parties due to time issues. Friend I: Didn't play the game, but used to watch GSL in 2010 and early 2011. Stopped gaming alltogether. In that periode of time and therefore didn't buy WoL. So yeah, nearly all of those people stopped playing because the game was too hard or they would have to spend too much time on it to get better (which is a very similar reason). Not one of them blamed the game's design for it and all of them actually like SC2. We got your point. But don’t forget that when we talk about SC2 we talk about it not only as a game but also as e-sport. Those who watch sc2 tournaments want this game to be harder and more demanding for players than it is now. The only e-sports I watch are BW and SC2. I also watch a lot of real sport NBA and F1 and I must tell you what these sports on professional level are difficult as hell. And nobody asks to make NBA rules easier or to lower basket to make it more casual friendly. F1 cars are the most difficult cars in the world and spectators are happy with that. The problem is that SC2 tries to be both e-sport and casual game. It’s just not possible. First I think LoL shows that you CAN be both casual and e-sport.And i really don't think that it is true that everyone wants SC2 to be harder. I think, especially on Team Liquid, many people here the great stories of BW, see the decline of SC2 (doesn't matter for what reason) and think "shit shit shit somethings wrong with the game, quick clone the game i remember being super successful." I've never understood why people haven't tried to revive BW using SC2 to get players that like a really hard, skill based RTS. There are enough of the younger generation (like me born 1994 now 19) that didn't really know of BW and I am really interested in trying it BECAUSE OF SC2. I am sure there are many more, so instead of wishing SC2 becomes like BW, why not try and bring some competition back to BW (the foreign scene was never that big, at least that's what a lot of people say). Regarding SC2 I think making it harder isn't the solution. While it would be "kinda cool" to not be able to do what the pros do, I think LoL is showing that you need a high player base, making a game hard will not achieve that. I don’t follow LOL but is it really successful as e-sport? There are many LOL tournaments? World and national championships?
you don't need oversaturation of tournaments to keep the scene alive like starcraft did.
Just make it fun to watch and decent to play, starcraft failed hard at that.
Good game > game surviving on personalities
When people micro(and I know how hard it is to do) I really cant be like "hooljdflkhdasafaldsalahd"
It just isnt exciting. The only time I am "dsfjlhasdkfjlh" is when someone shits talks somebody on stage like IdrA did.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 26 2013 22:28 Eggi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 21:57 MikeMM wrote:On September 26 2013 21:38 scares wrote:On September 26 2013 19:47 MikeMM wrote:On September 26 2013 18:12 Big J wrote:On September 26 2013 17:32 Incognoto wrote:On September 25 2013 14:39 Big J wrote:On September 25 2013 03:27 nottapro wrote:
My experience with trying to introduce people to SC2.
First reaction: It looks boring.
Then months later, after constant harassing, you maybe if your lucky convince them to try it.
Playing reaction: I have no idea what I am doing, this is way to complicated, I suck at this game, nothing is happening. I can't control my units.
If your extremely lucky, they will have this horrible experience for the next 2 months and not quit, always hating the game, clueless why you keep telling it is entertaining but working their asses off to maybe one day have fun
They finally get a handle on the basics: This is fun! Lets play SC2!
This lasts for about 6-7 months until
Final reaction: I got into a higher league, its way too hard now, I have to be in lower league to have fun so I am constantly losing games. I think Ill just quit instead.
And its over. Yeah, exactly. I could name roughly 10 friends that played or were interested in SC2 but don't play it these days. The two most common reasons: -) "It's too hard to play at any reasonable level. I don't want to take part in this spam-click-fest." -) "It's too time consuming to get anywhere." Not once did I hear the comment: "Guys, my problem is that the game is badly designed for reason XYZ." .... or maybe the game is too hard to play at a reasonable level because the game is badly designed? That sort of thing goes hand in hand you know. Obviously your friends aren't going to take a monocle and a pipe and say "Yes, indeed, this game isn't enjoyable because I believe that x and y are badly designed; indeed x has this kind of effect on this match up and y makes this part of this match up coin-flippy". No! People who aren't experienced in RTS just don't think about game design, especially if they haven't played several different kinds of RTS. In fact many people who have played many RTS for many years still don't think about game design. Some people do however. I remember talking to one of the top DoW players (maybe the best? can't remember) back in Beta/early release. He was a top Terran back then and was taking games off of pros. He really didn't like the game at all, for design flaws (didn't manage to get an in depth discussion though and back then what I really wanted was to enjoy SC2). Just goes to show that just because the average scrub doesn't think about these sort of design flaws, others still do. The game as it is now is playable but it's by no means a high-quality RTS. Even at tip-top Korean Code S play, you see players who can place really high off the back of gimmicks and cheese. Maru beating Innovation was an upset for a reason. There are other examples. What really makes SC2 any good at all is the fact that so many people play it. So finding a game is a matter of seconds, watching high level tournaments is easy, the players are interesting and have personalities, the casters are top notch. EVERYTHING is good about SC2 except the game itself. The game isn't BAD but it's not ground-breaking either. Good play revolves around knowing what kind of bullshit can be thrown at you and what kind of bullshit you can throw at your opponent. If both players have equal knowledge of bullshit, then games come down to mechanics in a macro game and that's kind of really enjoyable to watch and play. And yeah, the lower of the level of play, the more effective bullshit can be. That can really hurt the casual (money-making) side of a game. OK, so let's have a look in detail about my friends and why they don't play SC2 and something else instead: Friend S: Played Protoss for 1-2months. Then went back to RPGs (he spends a ton of time on them), because he prefers RPGs and RTS (he has played every CnC, WC3, BW too; stuck to neither of them) is just a nice diversion for him, but he said they are hard and repetitive. All RTS in general. Friend L1: Would like to play a game of SC2 once in a while (between bronze-gold), but he said he's fed up with playing against kids that have too much time in their life for gaming. So he plays Desert Strike and Simulation games these days, but in general he cut down on gaming a lot. Friend L2: Played Zerg a lot towards the middle and end of WoL. Then paused, because he said it takes too much time to play SC2. Lately has returned as Terran for some games, but he said he had to stop because he becomes way to ambitous when playing SC2 and he doesn't want to spend that much time on it. Friend D: Tries every RTS game, but very casually. Watched SC2 from time to time with me. Says it is too nerdy and talks about the "good old days" of SC2 when weird cheeses were dominating. Friend T: Plays mostly shooters and played the WoL campaign. Would have loved to try SC2, but he is afraid he would spent too much time on it. Friend V: Played a lot up to platinum as Zerg 2011. Stopped playing because of ladder anxiety. Plays LoL (and a lot of other games) these days because "it's much more relaxing". Friend P: Says he can't controll his temper when playing SC2. Word for word he said that he liked the game, but it was too hard for him and LoL caters more to his skillset. Friend A: Played Zerg up to diamond level between 2010-2012. Switch back and forth between SC2, LoL and other games. Stopped playing multiplayer games outside of LAN parties due to time issues. Friend I: Didn't play the game, but used to watch GSL in 2010 and early 2011. Stopped gaming alltogether. In that periode of time and therefore didn't buy WoL. So yeah, nearly all of those people stopped playing because the game was too hard or they would have to spend too much time on it to get better (which is a very similar reason). Not one of them blamed the game's design for it and all of them actually like SC2. We got your point. But don’t forget that when we talk about SC2 we talk about it not only as a game but also as e-sport. Those who watch sc2 tournaments want this game to be harder and more demanding for players than it is now. The only e-sports I watch are BW and SC2. I also watch a lot of real sport NBA and F1 and I must tell you what these sports on professional level are difficult as hell. And nobody asks to make NBA rules easier or to lower basket to make it more casual friendly. F1 cars are the most difficult cars in the world and spectators are happy with that. The problem is that SC2 tries to be both e-sport and casual game. It’s just not possible. First I think LoL shows that you CAN be both casual and e-sport.And i really don't think that it is true that everyone wants SC2 to be harder. I think, especially on Team Liquid, many people here the great stories of BW, see the decline of SC2 (doesn't matter for what reason) and think "shit shit shit somethings wrong with the game, quick clone the game i remember being super successful." I've never understood why people haven't tried to revive BW using SC2 to get players that like a really hard, skill based RTS. There are enough of the younger generation (like me born 1994 now 19) that didn't really know of BW and I am really interested in trying it BECAUSE OF SC2. I am sure there are many more, so instead of wishing SC2 becomes like BW, why not try and bring some competition back to BW (the foreign scene was never that big, at least that's what a lot of people say). Regarding SC2 I think making it harder isn't the solution. While it would be "kinda cool" to not be able to do what the pros do, I think LoL is showing that you need a high player base, making a game hard will not achieve that. I don’t follow LOL but is it really successful as e-sport? There are many LOL tournaments? World and national championships? you don't need oversaturation of tournaments to keep the scene alive like starcraft did. Just make it fun to watch and decent to play, starcraft failed hard at that. Good game > game surviving on personalities When people micro(and I know how hard it is to do) I really cant be like "hooljdflkhdasafaldsalahd" It just isnt exciting. The only time I am "dsfjlhasdkfjlh" is when someone shits talks somebody on stage like IdrA did.
If Happy's micro does make you go "awerawrhawoetoawthawetawerae" i have got sad news for you.
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Just about eSports -- if you want a big, professional scene (e.g., to support up-and-comers), you need a big watching fanbase.
Who is actually out there working to build the SC2 esports watching fanbase?
Xeris is, through the CSL, but I honestly don't see any other personalities out there trying to build up the number of SC2 esports viewers. A lot of focus goes on Blizzard about the game and building up the number of players, but that is going to have limited effectiveness. SC2 is a hard game and not everybody likes 1v1 or PvP games. If you want a big audience, you need people watching who aren't regular players.
That means 2 key things that I don't see in current SC2 esports:
1. Casting the game has to be aimed at a broader, less knowledgeable audience. More accurate play-by-play, less predictions about the build. Story lines that are accessible are about the players, tournaments, etc. and need less focus on the subtleties of gas timings on 4-gate variations (unless you can do that without interfering with the play-by-play). Watch some traditional sports sometimes and then compare to SC2 casting how much play-by-play they do. It's very different.
I love watching pro SC2, but whenever I'm tempted to try to get my casual playing friends to watch, I listen to the casting for awhile and realize there is no way they could follow the casting and I don't bother.
2. Outreach and cross-game promotion. The hardcore SC2 players are already in as the audience. There might be a few regular players who haven't discovered the pro scene, but there is not much room for growth there. But Dota2/LoL players might find watching SC2 interesting -- I think it's a purely better game to watch. However, how are they supposed to find their way? Take a look at the WCS portal on Liquipedia and tell me if a casual Dota2 player has any shot of figuring out what the interesting story lines in the WCS are.
BTW, both Dota2 and LoL have the same problem. I've tried to peek in on their big tournaments and I can never figure out what is going on over there either. Like SC2, they are aimed at the hardcore fans and it is very hard for a curious casual to catch up.
P.S. That is not intended to be a knock on Liquipedia about WCS -- TL is a fan based and fan driven site, it's not their job to promote WCS. They do an awesome job at what they do, which is to have all the information on players and tournament outcomes. Somebody ought to be in charge of promoting WCS, either Blizzard or the production companies they have hired (GOM, ESL, NASL) and I don't think any of them are doing the job. To do it right, you have to commit resources. Hire a PR person, a couple of writers and/or web designers, spend some money on advertising and really invest. Honestly, it's weird to me that nobody is doing that.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 26 2013 22:44 Drlemur wrote:
BTW, both Dota2 and LoL have the same problem. I've tried to peek in on their big tournaments and I can never figure out what is going on over there either. Like SC2, they are aimed at the hardcore fans and it is very hard for a curious casual to catch up.
i guess it is known enough that watchers per player number is higher for SC2 than for LoL (and perhaps Dota) though.
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On September 26 2013 19:47 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 18:12 Big J wrote:On September 26 2013 17:32 Incognoto wrote:On September 25 2013 14:39 Big J wrote:On September 25 2013 03:27 nottapro wrote:
My experience with trying to introduce people to SC2.
First reaction: It looks boring.
Then months later, after constant harassing, you maybe if your lucky convince them to try it.
Playing reaction: I have no idea what I am doing, this is way to complicated, I suck at this game, nothing is happening. I can't control my units.
If your extremely lucky, they will have this horrible experience for the next 2 months and not quit, always hating the game, clueless why you keep telling it is entertaining but working their asses off to maybe one day have fun
They finally get a handle on the basics: This is fun! Lets play SC2!
This lasts for about 6-7 months until
Final reaction: I got into a higher league, its way too hard now, I have to be in lower league to have fun so I am constantly losing games. I think Ill just quit instead.
And its over. Yeah, exactly. I could name roughly 10 friends that played or were interested in SC2 but don't play it these days. The two most common reasons: -) "It's too hard to play at any reasonable level. I don't want to take part in this spam-click-fest." -) "It's too time consuming to get anywhere." Not once did I hear the comment: "Guys, my problem is that the game is badly designed for reason XYZ." .... or maybe the game is too hard to play at a reasonable level because the game is badly designed? That sort of thing goes hand in hand you know. Obviously your friends aren't going to take a monocle and a pipe and say "Yes, indeed, this game isn't enjoyable because I believe that x and y are badly designed; indeed x has this kind of effect on this match up and y makes this part of this match up coin-flippy". No! People who aren't experienced in RTS just don't think about game design, especially if they haven't played several different kinds of RTS. In fact many people who have played many RTS for many years still don't think about game design. Some people do however. I remember talking to one of the top DoW players (maybe the best? can't remember) back in Beta/early release. He was a top Terran back then and was taking games off of pros. He really didn't like the game at all, for design flaws (didn't manage to get an in depth discussion though and back then what I really wanted was to enjoy SC2). Just goes to show that just because the average scrub doesn't think about these sort of design flaws, others still do. The game as it is now is playable but it's by no means a high-quality RTS. Even at tip-top Korean Code S play, you see players who can place really high off the back of gimmicks and cheese. Maru beating Innovation was an upset for a reason. There are other examples. What really makes SC2 any good at all is the fact that so many people play it. So finding a game is a matter of seconds, watching high level tournaments is easy, the players are interesting and have personalities, the casters are top notch. EVERYTHING is good about SC2 except the game itself. The game isn't BAD but it's not ground-breaking either. Good play revolves around knowing what kind of bullshit can be thrown at you and what kind of bullshit you can throw at your opponent. If both players have equal knowledge of bullshit, then games come down to mechanics in a macro game and that's kind of really enjoyable to watch and play. And yeah, the lower of the level of play, the more effective bullshit can be. That can really hurt the casual (money-making) side of a game. OK, so let's have a look in detail about my friends and why they don't play SC2 and something else instead: Friend S: Played Protoss for 1-2months. Then went back to RPGs (he spends a ton of time on them), because he prefers RPGs and RTS (he has played every CnC, WC3, BW too; stuck to neither of them) is just a nice diversion for him, but he said they are hard and repetitive. All RTS in general. Friend L1: Would like to play a game of SC2 once in a while (between bronze-gold), but he said he's fed up with playing against kids that have too much time in their life for gaming. So he plays Desert Strike and Simulation games these days, but in general he cut down on gaming a lot. Friend L2: Played Zerg a lot towards the middle and end of WoL. Then paused, because he said it takes too much time to play SC2. Lately has returned as Terran for some games, but he said he had to stop because he becomes way to ambitous when playing SC2 and he doesn't want to spend that much time on it. Friend D: Tries every RTS game, but very casually. Watched SC2 from time to time with me. Says it is too nerdy and talks about the "good old days" of SC2 when weird cheeses were dominating. Friend T: Plays mostly shooters and played the WoL campaign. Would have loved to try SC2, but he is afraid he would spent too much time on it. Friend V: Played a lot up to platinum as Zerg 2011. Stopped playing because of ladder anxiety. Plays LoL (and a lot of other games) these days because "it's much more relaxing". Friend P: Says he can't controll his temper when playing SC2. Word for word he said that he liked the game, but it was too hard for him and LoL caters more to his skillset. Friend A: Played Zerg up to diamond level between 2010-2012. Switch back and forth between SC2, LoL and other games. Stopped playing multiplayer games outside of LAN parties due to time issues. Friend I: Didn't play the game, but used to watch GSL in 2010 and early 2011. Stopped gaming alltogether. In that periode of time and therefore didn't buy WoL. So yeah, nearly all of those people stopped playing because the game was too hard or they would have to spend too much time on it to get better (which is a very similar reason). Not one of them blamed the game's design for it and all of them actually like SC2. We got your point. But don’t forget that when we talk about SC2 we talk about it not only as a game but also as e-sport. Those who watch sc2 tournaments want this game to be harder and more demanding for players than it is now. The only e-sports I watch are BW and SC2. I also watch a lot of real sport NBA and F1 and I must tell you what these sports on professional level are difficult as hell. And nobody asks to make NBA rules easier or to lower basket to make it more casual friendly. F1 cars are the most difficult cars in the world and spectators are happy with that. The problem is that SC2 tries to be both e-sport and casual game. It’s just not possible.
On your basketball point.
A lot of people actually suggests to raise the NBA basket because right now people power dunk their way to points and they want to bring back the finesse style play of the older generations like the times when larry bird and what not were the top players because back then the game was more about team positioning, proper lay ups, and passing. Now its all focused on power players and strong dunk plays which are hard to block because of the mass/velocity relationship of a human body lunging towards you.
But I digress.
The actual point I wanted to make was that he is trying to show you the reason why people stop playing Starcraft 2 and it turns out to be the same reason people had stopped playing BW outside of Korea.
Big J is showing you that the game is too hard for people and is filled with a community that yells at them that the game is too easy.
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On September 26 2013 22:44 Drlemur wrote:
Just about eSports -- if you want a big, professional scene (e.g., to support up-and-comers), you need a big watching fanbase.
Who is actually out there working to build the SC2 esports watching fanbase?
Xeris is, through the CSL, but I honestly don't see any other personalities out there trying to build up the number of SC2 esports viewers. A lot of focus goes on Blizzard about the game and building up the number of players, but that is going to have limited effectiveness. SC2 is a hard game and not everybody likes 1v1 or PvP games. If you want a big audience, you need people watching who aren't regular players.
That means 2 key things that I don't see in current SC2 esports:
1. Casting the game has to be aimed at a broader, less knowledgeable audience. More accurate play-by-play, less predictions about the build. Story lines that are accessible are about the players, tournaments, etc. and need less focus on the subtleties of gas timings on 4-gate variations (unless you can do that without interfering with the play-by-play). Watch some traditional sports sometimes and then compare to SC2 casting how much play-by-play they do. It's very different.
I love watching pro SC2, but whenever I'm tempted to try to get my casual playing friends to watch, I listen to the casting for awhile and realize there is no way they could follow the casting and I don't bother.
2. Outreach and cross-game promotion. The hardcore SC2 players are already in as the audience. There might be a few regular players who haven't discovered the pro scene, but there is not much room for growth there. But Dota2/LoL players might find watching SC2 interesting -- I think it's a purely better game to watch. However, how are they supposed to find their way? Take a look at the WCS portal on Liquipedia and tell me if a casual Dota2 player has any shot of figuring out what the interesting story lines in the WCS are.
BTW, both Dota2 and LoL have the same problem. I've tried to peek in on their big tournaments and I can never figure out what is going on over there either. Like SC2, they are aimed at the hardcore fans and it is very hard for a curious casual to catch up.
P.S. That is not intended to be a knock on Liquipedia about WCS -- TL is a fan based and fan driven site, it's not their job to promote WCS. They do an awesome job at what they do, which is to have all the information on players and tournament outcomes. Somebody ought to be in charge of promoting WCS, either Blizzard or the production companies they have hired (GOM, ESL, NASL) and I don't think any of them are doing the job. To do it right, you have to commit resources. Hire a PR person, a couple of writers and/or web designers, spend some money on advertising and really invest. Honestly, it's weird to me that nobody is doing that.
This is something American Football does very well and is one of the biggest for its mass appeal.
Hardcore fans hate the "He's running the ball" and the "He loves passing the ball" and the "such and such is a good runner" commentary since they already know it--but it helps casuals enjoy the game.
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WCG Canada
World of Tanks: $20,000 in prizes (represent Canada in China, cash prize and WoT Gold)
Cross Fire: $12,000 in prizes (represent Canada in China, cash prize and ZP Points)
Starcraft II: $3,000 in prizes (represent Canada in China, Absolute Furniture Industries – DX Racer chair and GIGABYTE Motherboard – G1.Sniper M5)
Hmm maybe if there were more sponsors for prize events, even $500.00 extra cash from that extra person on the scene for the beloved game of SC2. Wait, a min. Team Liquid bans sponsors and has them move onto other e-sports.
Do not look at the developers, the game is community driven, the heads of the community want to monopolize it, which destroys any chance of real development.
gg
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On September 27 2013 00:01 Zadien wrote:
WCG Canada
World of Tanks: $20,000 in prizes (represent Canada in China, cash prize and WoT Gold)
Cross Fire: $12,000 in prizes (represent Canada in China, cash prize and ZP Points)
Starcraft II: $3,000 in prizes (represent Canada in China, Absolute Furniture Industries – DX Racer chair and GIGABYTE Motherboard – G1.Sniper M5)
Hmm maybe if there were more sponsors for prize events, even $500.00 extra cash from that extra person on the scene for the beloved game of SC2. Wait, a min. Team Liquid bans sponsors and has them move onto other e-sports.
Do not look at the developers, the game is community driven, the heads of the community want to monopolize it, which destroys any chance of real development.
gg
What are you talking about "Team Liquid bans sponsors and has them move onto other e-sports."? Are you just making stuff up?
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On September 27 2013 00:01 Zadien wrote:
WCG Canada
World of Tanks: $20,000 in prizes (represent Canada in China, cash prize and WoT Gold)
Cross Fire: $12,000 in prizes (represent Canada in China, cash prize and ZP Points)
Starcraft II: $3,000 in prizes (represent Canada in China, Absolute Furniture Industries – DX Racer chair and GIGABYTE Motherboard – G1.Sniper M5)
Hmm maybe if there were more sponsors for prize events, even $500.00 extra cash from that extra person on the scene for the beloved game of SC2. Wait, a min. Team Liquid bans sponsors and has them move onto other e-sports.
Do not look at the developers, the game is community driven, the heads of the community want to monopolize it, which destroys any chance of real development.
gg
I'm not really sure what you mean by the heads of the community monopolizing things, vs the developers' overall lack of care for anything outside of the Korean scene. I feel like the community heads, despite their little buddy system, try pretty hard to make the scene as global as they can with the corporate and community resources available.
If anything has contributed to a perceived monopolization it's the creation of the WCS framework, league mixing, and lack of community interest overall. I don't think that the difficulty to become a relevant community member necessarily plays into how horribly set up the SC2 eSports framework is, nor does it affect the other aspects that the OP brings up.
I couldn't imagine what it's like trying to get into SC2 right now, from scratch (with or without RTS or PCgaming experience). Our community isn't exactly welcoming to all types of personalities, and our game isn't exactly noob-friendly. We've got a pretty long tradition of chasing people away, not to mention Blizzard's tradition of disappointing long-time fans of their games.
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On September 26 2013 23:04 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 22:44 Drlemur wrote:
BTW, both Dota2 and LoL have the same problem. I've tried to peek in on their big tournaments and I can never figure out what is going on over there either. Like SC2, they are aimed at the hardcore fans and it is very hard for a curious casual to catch up.
i guess it is known enough that watchers per player number is higher for SC2 than for LoL (and perhaps Dota) though.
And LoL kinda forgoes the problem by having such a HUGE player base, that enough people understand the game.
It is also kinda a problem for some regular sports i know people who can't watch football (soccer) because they don't know whats going on. IN GERMANY! But enough people do to negate the ones that don't and I feel LoL does the same.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 27 2013 00:44 scares wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 23:04 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2013 22:44 Drlemur wrote:
BTW, both Dota2 and LoL have the same problem. I've tried to peek in on their big tournaments and I can never figure out what is going on over there either. Like SC2, they are aimed at the hardcore fans and it is very hard for a curious casual to catch up.
i guess it is known enough that watchers per player number is higher for SC2 than for LoL (and perhaps Dota) though. And LoL kinda forgoes the problem by having such a HUGE player base, that enough people understand the game. It is also kinda a problem for some regular sports i know people who can't watch football (soccer) because they don't know whats going on. IN GERMANY! But enough people do to negate the ones that don't and I feel LoL does the same.
Yeah, i was just noticing that 'hardcore fan base' for SC2, as he called it is much more wider than player base, so one can say SC2 is easy-to-watch D:
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I don’t follow LOL but is it really successful as e-sport?
There are many LOL tournaments?
World and national championships?
I follow LoL and yes the world championships is happening right now (http://na.lolesports.com/).
Every match from group-stage to semifinals has had about 150,000 viewers on Twitch. They stream the matches at 1080p FOR FREE unlike SC2 matches. They make so much money from ticket sales (the match stadium is huge), and such that they can provide so much free, high quality content.
LoL is absolutely successful as e-sport, more so than any other game probably ever. It's definitely the biggest game in China, maybe Korea, EU, etc.
Here's another huge feature about LoL that Blizzard forgot about: Spectating Your Friends! When I log into a game, and I see my friends playing, I want to watch him! Especially, if I know he's been trying hard to rank up - I want to share the joys of victory or the sadness of defeat with my friends. This is community building. LoL lets you do that - you can jump in and watch any of your friends playing at any time (3 min delay to prevent cheating).
For SC2, you have to have it all arranged ahead of time, select an obs map (what nonsense), etc. It just forces everyone to be alone and play alone.
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The reason I stopped playing is the game's too much reliance on spamming keys and clicks (what is referred as macro). This limits the audience to people who like spamming keys and a little bit of tactics/strategy on top of it. I was a diamond reaching low masters, and it was really stupid how furiously you have to keep spamming keys to keep up with the opponents. This is not a battle of wits or intelligence.
Recently, I rediscovered chess. You just 1 or 2 apm to play chess, yet its complexity of tactics and strategy is orders of magnitude above sc2. I'm really enjoying playing it.
The difference in not being able to copy a gm in chess and sc2 is that in chess, you simply cannot think deep enough or just don't understand why a higher level player is making such moves. In sc2 it's cause I haven't practiced spamming buttons for hours everyday.
Not comparing LoL and chess, but in LoL too there is more "thinking" in 1 LoL game than 10 sc2 games combined, without spamming buttons. You just need one click to go from mid lane to bottom/top, but the question is should you go to top or bottom? Or just stay mid and farm? or are you expecting the enemy jungler to gank a lane and go and help them? There's some mechanics of last hitting, but there's a huge reliance on knowledge of different factors. Again emphasizing, a scrub and a top player in LoL has around the same apm, yet their gameplay is worlds apart.
There needs to be more depth in tactics and strategy in sc2.
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On September 27 2013 01:51 MrLion wrote:
The reason I stopped playing is the game's too much reliance on spamming keys and clicks (what is referred as macro). This limits the audience to people who like spamming keys and a little bit of tactics/strategy on top of it. I was a diamond reaching low masters, and it was really stupid how furiously you have to keep spamming keys to keep up with the opponents. This is not a battle of wits or intelligence.
Recently, I rediscovered chess. You just 1 or 2 apm to play chess, yet its complexity of tactics and strategy is orders of magnitude above sc2. I'm really enjoying playing it.
The difference in not being able to copy a gm in chess and sc2 is that in chess, you simply cannot think deep enough or just don't understand why a higher level player is making such moves. In sc2 it's cause I haven't practiced spamming buttons for hours everyday.
Not comparing LoL and chess, but in LoL too there is more "thinking" in 1 LoL game than 10 sc2 games combined, without spamming buttons. You just need one click to go from mid lane to bottom/top, but the question is should you go to top or bottom? Or just stay mid and farm? or are you expecting the enemy jungler to gank a lane and go and help them? There's some mechanics of last hitting, but there's a huge reliance on knowledge of different factors. Again emphasizing, a scrub and a top player in LoL has around the same apm, yet their gameplay is worlds apart.
There needs to be more depth in tactics and strategy in sc2.
However, many others argue that mechanics (spamming keys) should be more important. And now i can only say welcome to Blizzards problem: Some people want more strategy others want more mechanics. Which do you go for? You can't just "ask the community and make a better game" as the community is split about the two.
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EPT
