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On September 21 2013 01:59 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 01:08 renaissanceMAN wrote:On September 21 2013 00:51 mechengineer123 wrote:
I wish people would just let pro's practice anonymously. There's no real way to practice anonymously unless you're talking about in-house team games, which again, isn't very anonymous. Realistically the only people who are going to utilize this to any value are other pros anyway. I think it's important, especially for foreign pros, to be able to say "Ya know, I haven't really had any tournaments I could excel in, but I've beaten IM Yoda 3 times this week when previously I'd never beaten him." It's another way to show improvement, and I'm all for more legitimate ways to show improvement. I think the barcode/smurf nonsense is ridiculous, personally. Especially for the top of the top. They have plenty of available practice partners already at the top that they don't have to ladder for anything but mechanical practice. There's no reason they need to be anonymous to practice mechanics. I'm sure it might be useful, but it's simply not necessary and they're not hurt when someone knows who they are.
the problem is as a pro gamer it's hard to not have people look at your match history, in meta yesterday the pros were asking blizzard if they could have that Erased or an option to not have it show. it really messes up your game if you have special build orders you want to try out on ladder and end up getting it stolen.
oh and, the practice partners we generally have... we do run into each other in competitions and things get awkward.
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My buddy had this idea before.. I think he didn't bother with it because of laziness.. and I didn't pursue it because it seems like something that simply hurts the obvious need for anonymity for ||||||||| players =\
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On September 21 2013 01:37 Hollandrock wrote:
This is an awesome feature! It would certainly be very interesting if we could see who some of the players are likely to be.
I feel that team-shared accounts and name changes might make this quite confusing, though.
Right now the currently simplicity in implementation makes it very flexible to these kinds of situations. It only considers individual players from individual replays, so the question becomes modified:
It's not "what's the real, fixed identity of that barcode I just played?" Rather, it's "who does the barcode, in this replay specifically," match most closely?
This isn't exactly the implementation I'm using at the moment, but I may be add an option to use a similar one in the future (see the blog post about the techniques being used). The main issue with something like that is that I'm not sure exactly how to group things together. I have a good idea for Terran, but I'm not sure what units inform well on hotkey setups.
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On September 21 2013 02:08 hellokittySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 01:59 Noobity wrote:On September 21 2013 01:08 renaissanceMAN wrote:On September 21 2013 00:51 mechengineer123 wrote:
I wish people would just let pro's practice anonymously. There's no real way to practice anonymously unless you're talking about in-house team games, which again, isn't very anonymous. Realistically the only people who are going to utilize this to any value are other pros anyway. I think it's important, especially for foreign pros, to be able to say "Ya know, I haven't really had any tournaments I could excel in, but I've beaten IM Yoda 3 times this week when previously I'd never beaten him." It's another way to show improvement, and I'm all for more legitimate ways to show improvement. I think the barcode/smurf nonsense is ridiculous, personally. Especially for the top of the top. They have plenty of available practice partners already at the top that they don't have to ladder for anything but mechanical practice. There's no reason they need to be anonymous to practice mechanics. I'm sure it might be useful, but it's simply not necessary and they're not hurt when someone knows who they are. the problem is as a pro gamer it's hard to not have people look at your match history, in meta yesterday the pros were asking blizzard if they could have that Erased or an option to not have it show. it really messes up your game if you have special build orders you want to try out on ladder and end up getting it stolen. oh and, the practice partners we generally have... we do run into each other in competitions and things get awkward.
Do not exactly need to go through your match history to see which failed all in into ragequit you did.
in all seriousness barcodes should be prohibited, and there should be an option to remove games from showing in your match history. IMO barcodes are a pretty big factor in sc2 losing interest.
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i dont like this let people who want to play anonymous stay anonymous.
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On September 21 2013 03:25 Msr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 02:08 hellokittySC2 wrote:On September 21 2013 01:59 Noobity wrote:On September 21 2013 01:08 renaissanceMAN wrote:On September 21 2013 00:51 mechengineer123 wrote:
I wish people would just let pro's practice anonymously. There's no real way to practice anonymously unless you're talking about in-house team games, which again, isn't very anonymous. Realistically the only people who are going to utilize this to any value are other pros anyway. I think it's important, especially for foreign pros, to be able to say "Ya know, I haven't really had any tournaments I could excel in, but I've beaten IM Yoda 3 times this week when previously I'd never beaten him." It's another way to show improvement, and I'm all for more legitimate ways to show improvement. I think the barcode/smurf nonsense is ridiculous, personally. Especially for the top of the top. They have plenty of available practice partners already at the top that they don't have to ladder for anything but mechanical practice. There's no reason they need to be anonymous to practice mechanics. I'm sure it might be useful, but it's simply not necessary and they're not hurt when someone knows who they are. the problem is as a pro gamer it's hard to not have people look at your match history, in meta yesterday the pros were asking blizzard if they could have that Erased or an option to not have it show. it really messes up your game if you have special build orders you want to try out on ladder and end up getting it stolen. oh and, the practice partners we generally have... we do run into each other in competitions and things get awkward. Do not exactly need to go through your match history to see which failed all in into ragequit you did. in all seriousness barcodes should be prohibited, and there should be an option to remove games from showing in your match history. IMO barcodes are a pretty big factor in sc2 losing interest.
Little uncalled for here.
I see what you're getting at, HK, but the simple answer is to separate the two actions. Practice standard play on ladder, and save specific builds and new tactics in games set aside for intense theory crafting play. It takes a little more effort to schedule things I'm sure, but it seems possible and useful.
I understand the desire to have build orders and such removed from a score screen, and realistically that's a concern pros have been asking for forever so there's no reason that shouldn't be possible. However, if you're practicing a new build out on ladder, if it's any good then the moment you do it against a competent opponent it's already out there, and they've got a replay showing how you did it. I guess I just don't see how that's less of a concern than hiding ladder information.
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On September 21 2013 03:58 Extenz wrote:
i dont like this let people who want to play anonymous stay anonymous.
i dont like this let people who want to know who they played know who they played.
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On September 20 2013 23:32 a176 wrote:
you should tweet this out to progamers
and/or reddit it
I think most progamers already know which barcode is which players simply by playing against them a lot at analyzing their styles. TLO's concern in meta was actually that barcode basically suggests heavily that they want to stay anonymous. So even if you know who it is, do you really message him with his name?
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Someone needs to publish a real ladder with all barcodes linked to the names of the actual players.
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On September 21 2013 04:09 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 03:25 Msr wrote:On September 21 2013 02:08 hellokittySC2 wrote:On September 21 2013 01:59 Noobity wrote:On September 21 2013 01:08 renaissanceMAN wrote:On September 21 2013 00:51 mechengineer123 wrote:
I wish people would just let pro's practice anonymously. There's no real way to practice anonymously unless you're talking about in-house team games, which again, isn't very anonymous. Realistically the only people who are going to utilize this to any value are other pros anyway. I think it's important, especially for foreign pros, to be able to say "Ya know, I haven't really had any tournaments I could excel in, but I've beaten IM Yoda 3 times this week when previously I'd never beaten him." It's another way to show improvement, and I'm all for more legitimate ways to show improvement. I think the barcode/smurf nonsense is ridiculous, personally. Especially for the top of the top. They have plenty of available practice partners already at the top that they don't have to ladder for anything but mechanical practice. There's no reason they need to be anonymous to practice mechanics. I'm sure it might be useful, but it's simply not necessary and they're not hurt when someone knows who they are. the problem is as a pro gamer it's hard to not have people look at your match history, in meta yesterday the pros were asking blizzard if they could have that Erased or an option to not have it show. it really messes up your game if you have special build orders you want to try out on ladder and end up getting it stolen. oh and, the practice partners we generally have... we do run into each other in competitions and things get awkward. Do not exactly need to go through your match history to see which failed all in into ragequit you did. in all seriousness barcodes should be prohibited, and there should be an option to remove games from showing in your match history. IMO barcodes are a pretty big factor in sc2 losing interest. Little uncalled for here. I see what you're getting at, HK, but the simple answer is to separate the two actions. Practice standard play on ladder, and save specific builds and new tactics in games set aside for intense theory crafting play. It takes a little more effort to schedule things I'm sure, but it seems possible and useful. I understand the desire to have build orders and such removed from a score screen, and realistically that's a concern pros have been asking for forever so there's no reason that shouldn't be possible. However, if you're practicing a new build out on ladder, if it's any good then the moment you do it against a competent opponent it's already out there, and they've got a replay showing how you did it. I guess I just don't see how that's less of a concern than hiding ladder information.
They could probably also have a second option that disallows your information in a replay from being shown, like your vision and your production so that you can only watch the replay from the raw perspective of the player who played against you.
But I mean, to allow that kind of privacy would be a godsend for pros utilizing ladder, the end of catching any hackers, and a huge knife in the back to the community trying to get better at the game. I too agree, that the best solution is our current reality: pros should separate their secret builds from their general ladder play.
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On September 21 2013 04:33 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 04:09 Noobity wrote:On September 21 2013 03:25 Msr wrote:On September 21 2013 02:08 hellokittySC2 wrote:On September 21 2013 01:59 Noobity wrote:On September 21 2013 01:08 renaissanceMAN wrote:On September 21 2013 00:51 mechengineer123 wrote:
I wish people would just let pro's practice anonymously. There's no real way to practice anonymously unless you're talking about in-house team games, which again, isn't very anonymous. Realistically the only people who are going to utilize this to any value are other pros anyway. I think it's important, especially for foreign pros, to be able to say "Ya know, I haven't really had any tournaments I could excel in, but I've beaten IM Yoda 3 times this week when previously I'd never beaten him." It's another way to show improvement, and I'm all for more legitimate ways to show improvement. I think the barcode/smurf nonsense is ridiculous, personally. Especially for the top of the top. They have plenty of available practice partners already at the top that they don't have to ladder for anything but mechanical practice. There's no reason they need to be anonymous to practice mechanics. I'm sure it might be useful, but it's simply not necessary and they're not hurt when someone knows who they are. the problem is as a pro gamer it's hard to not have people look at your match history, in meta yesterday the pros were asking blizzard if they could have that Erased or an option to not have it show. it really messes up your game if you have special build orders you want to try out on ladder and end up getting it stolen. oh and, the practice partners we generally have... we do run into each other in competitions and things get awkward. Do not exactly need to go through your match history to see which failed all in into ragequit you did. in all seriousness barcodes should be prohibited, and there should be an option to remove games from showing in your match history. IMO barcodes are a pretty big factor in sc2 losing interest. Little uncalled for here. I see what you're getting at, HK, but the simple answer is to separate the two actions. Practice standard play on ladder, and save specific builds and new tactics in games set aside for intense theory crafting play. It takes a little more effort to schedule things I'm sure, but it seems possible and useful. I understand the desire to have build orders and such removed from a score screen, and realistically that's a concern pros have been asking for forever so there's no reason that shouldn't be possible. However, if you're practicing a new build out on ladder, if it's any good then the moment you do it against a competent opponent it's already out there, and they've got a replay showing how you did it. I guess I just don't see how that's less of a concern than hiding ladder information. They could probably also have a second option that disallows your information in a replay from being shown, like your vision and your production so that you can only watch the replay from the raw perspective of the player who played against you. But I mean, to allow that kind of privacy would be a godsend for pros utilizing ladder, the end of catching any hackers, and a huge knife in the back to the community trying to get better at the game. I too agree, that the best solution is our current reality: pros should separate their secret builds from their general ladder play.
I'd rage hard over not being able to see my opponent's information in a replay, lol. I think it'd be a great idea for pros like you said, but would be absolutely garbage for those of us who aren't pros and want to get better.
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On September 21 2013 04:37 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 04:33 rd wrote:On September 21 2013 04:09 Noobity wrote:On September 21 2013 03:25 Msr wrote:On September 21 2013 02:08 hellokittySC2 wrote:On September 21 2013 01:59 Noobity wrote:On September 21 2013 01:08 renaissanceMAN wrote:On September 21 2013 00:51 mechengineer123 wrote:
I wish people would just let pro's practice anonymously. There's no real way to practice anonymously unless you're talking about in-house team games, which again, isn't very anonymous. Realistically the only people who are going to utilize this to any value are other pros anyway. I think it's important, especially for foreign pros, to be able to say "Ya know, I haven't really had any tournaments I could excel in, but I've beaten IM Yoda 3 times this week when previously I'd never beaten him." It's another way to show improvement, and I'm all for more legitimate ways to show improvement. I think the barcode/smurf nonsense is ridiculous, personally. Especially for the top of the top. They have plenty of available practice partners already at the top that they don't have to ladder for anything but mechanical practice. There's no reason they need to be anonymous to practice mechanics. I'm sure it might be useful, but it's simply not necessary and they're not hurt when someone knows who they are. the problem is as a pro gamer it's hard to not have people look at your match history, in meta yesterday the pros were asking blizzard if they could have that Erased or an option to not have it show. it really messes up your game if you have special build orders you want to try out on ladder and end up getting it stolen. oh and, the practice partners we generally have... we do run into each other in competitions and things get awkward. Do not exactly need to go through your match history to see which failed all in into ragequit you did. in all seriousness barcodes should be prohibited, and there should be an option to remove games from showing in your match history. IMO barcodes are a pretty big factor in sc2 losing interest. Little uncalled for here. I see what you're getting at, HK, but the simple answer is to separate the two actions. Practice standard play on ladder, and save specific builds and new tactics in games set aside for intense theory crafting play. It takes a little more effort to schedule things I'm sure, but it seems possible and useful. I understand the desire to have build orders and such removed from a score screen, and realistically that's a concern pros have been asking for forever so there's no reason that shouldn't be possible. However, if you're practicing a new build out on ladder, if it's any good then the moment you do it against a competent opponent it's already out there, and they've got a replay showing how you did it. I guess I just don't see how that's less of a concern than hiding ladder information. They could probably also have a second option that disallows your information in a replay from being shown, like your vision and your production so that you can only watch the replay from the raw perspective of the player who played against you. But I mean, to allow that kind of privacy would be a godsend for pros utilizing ladder, the end of catching any hackers, and a huge knife in the back to the community trying to get better at the game. I too agree, that the best solution is our current reality: pros should separate their secret builds from their general ladder play. I'd rage hard over not being able to see my opponent's information in a replay, lol. I think it'd be a great idea for pros like you said, but would be absolutely garbage for those of us who aren't pros and want to get better.
I think you should be able to see every information in every game that YOU played in. I mean you are getting those replays anyways. But it would be good if not everybody else could see it.
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On September 21 2013 04:42 Greenei wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 04:37 Noobity wrote:On September 21 2013 04:33 rd wrote:On September 21 2013 04:09 Noobity wrote:On September 21 2013 03:25 Msr wrote:On September 21 2013 02:08 hellokittySC2 wrote:On September 21 2013 01:59 Noobity wrote:On September 21 2013 01:08 renaissanceMAN wrote:On September 21 2013 00:51 mechengineer123 wrote:
I wish people would just let pro's practice anonymously. There's no real way to practice anonymously unless you're talking about in-house team games, which again, isn't very anonymous. Realistically the only people who are going to utilize this to any value are other pros anyway. I think it's important, especially for foreign pros, to be able to say "Ya know, I haven't really had any tournaments I could excel in, but I've beaten IM Yoda 3 times this week when previously I'd never beaten him." It's another way to show improvement, and I'm all for more legitimate ways to show improvement. I think the barcode/smurf nonsense is ridiculous, personally. Especially for the top of the top. They have plenty of available practice partners already at the top that they don't have to ladder for anything but mechanical practice. There's no reason they need to be anonymous to practice mechanics. I'm sure it might be useful, but it's simply not necessary and they're not hurt when someone knows who they are. the problem is as a pro gamer it's hard to not have people look at your match history, in meta yesterday the pros were asking blizzard if they could have that Erased or an option to not have it show. it really messes up your game if you have special build orders you want to try out on ladder and end up getting it stolen. oh and, the practice partners we generally have... we do run into each other in competitions and things get awkward. Do not exactly need to go through your match history to see which failed all in into ragequit you did. in all seriousness barcodes should be prohibited, and there should be an option to remove games from showing in your match history. IMO barcodes are a pretty big factor in sc2 losing interest. Little uncalled for here. I see what you're getting at, HK, but the simple answer is to separate the two actions. Practice standard play on ladder, and save specific builds and new tactics in games set aside for intense theory crafting play. It takes a little more effort to schedule things I'm sure, but it seems possible and useful. I understand the desire to have build orders and such removed from a score screen, and realistically that's a concern pros have been asking for forever so there's no reason that shouldn't be possible. However, if you're practicing a new build out on ladder, if it's any good then the moment you do it against a competent opponent it's already out there, and they've got a replay showing how you did it. I guess I just don't see how that's less of a concern than hiding ladder information. They could probably also have a second option that disallows your information in a replay from being shown, like your vision and your production so that you can only watch the replay from the raw perspective of the player who played against you. But I mean, to allow that kind of privacy would be a godsend for pros utilizing ladder, the end of catching any hackers, and a huge knife in the back to the community trying to get better at the game. I too agree, that the best solution is our current reality: pros should separate their secret builds from their general ladder play. I'd rage hard over not being able to see my opponent's information in a replay, lol. I think it'd be a great idea for pros like you said, but would be absolutely garbage for those of us who aren't pros and want to get better. I think you should be able to see every information in every game that YOU played in. I mean you are getting those replays anyways. But it would be good if not everybody else could see it.
No, it'd be terrible. Not just pros would enable such a feature, a lot of people would. Which just makes it harder for the average player to get better, and would make it impossible to catch hackers outside of warden. The ladder wasn't designed for pros to practice, it was made for the community to be shared.
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On September 21 2013 04:12 Greenei wrote:
Someone needs to publish a real ladder with all barcodes linked to the names of the actual players.
Is that even possible? you would have to somehow update it in real time to account for changing positions and, like the OP said, this isn't a code saying "your playing lucifron" its saying "well, according to hot keys, there is a 86.42424 chance your playing lucifron, a 58.2323 chance your playing happy, etc.
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On September 21 2013 08:26 partydude89 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 04:12 Greenei wrote:
Someone needs to publish a real ladder with all barcodes linked to the names of the actual players. Is that even possible? you would have to somehow update it in real time to account for changing positions and, like the OP said, this isn't a code saying "your playing lucifron" its saying "well, according to hot keys, there is a 86.42424 chance your playing lucifron, a 58.2323 chance your playing happy, etc.
That's not quite it. A similarity measure isn't the same thing as chance. Think of it as the "distance between hotkey setups." That is, a similarity close to 1 means that two setups are very close given the total set of reference replays, and a similarity close to 0 means that two setups are very far apart given the total set of reference replays.
Publishing a real, definitively correct ladder would be difficult, but services such as sc2ranks that associate replays with players in ladder make informed predictions possible. But this has existed before, again in the form of those ICCUP who is who threads.
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Sc2ranks already gives barcodes unique identifiers, all you have to do is slowly match the sc2ranks barcode names to pros and link it that way.
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On September 24 2013 08:28 Amandil wrote:
Sc2ranks already gives barcodes unique identifiers, all you have to do is slowly match the sc2ranks barcode names to pros and link it that way.
Barcodes have always had unique identifiers: their battle.net profile numbers, not to mention unique barcode+character id. The issue here is that barcode replays are not really acessible, sc2ranks has many barcodes with 0 replays associated with them, and most with replays associated have just one or two replays. That's not really good enough to put out a "ground truth" ladder with all identies revealed. Additionally, it's hard to get likely candidates for barcodes in general. While a tournament replay pack will give you a good number of replays, it's far from representative for all progamers or even a particular region.
Because of how replays are usually distributed, I think it currently makes sense for this to be used by individuals who likely have a replays of said barcode in both anonymous and identifiable form (progamers). Believe me, the demo video was originally going to be tested with a bar code, but I had such a hard time finding a barcode that I knew was in the reference set (Dreamhack) that I scrapped that idea.
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The barcode butcher will be proud
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Rename this the Price Gun.
Great work btw smart lil idea.
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EPT
