EPTIdeas to help Starcraft grow? - Page 13
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TheSirusFactor
11 Posts
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FetusThrower
United States50 Posts
On August 10 2013 00:20 Chaplin wrote: ... If there is a tournament, I don't want to search Liquipedia or such to know what format it uses and which players can participate how and most of all I don't want it to end with just winning some money... Said every person EVER when Polt won WCS America without even a trophy. What a terrible way to end such an amazing season of WCS America. So abrupt.. Anyway, I don't really feel like there's much I can say that would contribute to this thread. I just know that I hopped on youtube (which has a MUCH larger viewership overall than twitch) and was bored of the channels I was subbed to. Saw Totalbiscuit's SC2 youtube account in the recommended channels on the right and said "Why not check it out".. Looking through a bunch of "Ro#" and "Bo#" titled videos, I was trying to figure out what one was actually closer to finals since it was obviously a tournament (Shoutcraft America) of some sort. Finally found the videos of the finals, and recognized one of the player's team/clan tags: ROOT Gaming. I thought Kane was a straight-up douche to State when they were being interviewed at the beginning interviews, and so began my first Starcraft experience. + Show Spoiler + I remember TB saying how players can sometimes end up fighting after games like that or something, thinking he was serious. It obviously seemed very competitive, and I was hooked instantly on this strange game I've heard seldom about from anyone, including on it's official release (Diablo 3 was the same way sorta, except people knew the game sucked). Watched all of the finals between State and Kane, Kane winning with 1 map lost or something. Felt pretty bad for State due to how confident and douchey Kane seemed to be. (31-2 vs Kane on ladder or something? Rly you gotta throw that in before you play..) Anyway.. Later on in the week/that day maybe, I ended up going to twitch because I was still bored (first time there) and saw Starcraft w/lots of viewers. Clicked on the biggest channel and voila. WCS America Up and Downs Season 1 2013. Haven't stopped watching SC2 for more than a few hours since. Youtube. That's where I found Starcraft and it's community. There's little talk about Starcraft in any game, though fans exist in every single one of those games' communities. Spread the word, spread the love. I've come from a dying game to a game that's said to be dying (that being SC2). You don't know dead until the game is no longer walking on two feet. In fact, the game isn't dying until it's legs are blown off and it's hanging off the Grand Canyon's edge with one arm. If you have nothing good to say about the game, it should die (and that's why said game 1 died). If you've got passion for SC2 and you really think it's still worth watching on some level, or playing for that matter, you should tell everyone you know about it. Based off of youtube/forum/etc communities of many other games I've played, the developers are not what make a game successful. It's the talk behind it from the fans and the people who have experienced the greatness it beholds. Sometimes it's not very strong, but there's always a chance at a slow build-up. (see: small youtube channels getting bigger with time via LIKES, FAVORITES, VIEWERSHIP, and TELLING PEOPLE ABOUT IT) Starcraft 2 is far from being small, so I don't see how it'd be impossible for it to grow as well. Just tell people about it everywhere you can and hope that they enjoy themselves. It's the community that spreads the word, not flashy tournaments, spammy advertising, or anything else. If people are recommended it, they will check it out. Edit: 4:20 am yolo'd this post, sorry if it seems a bit long. I just had a lot to say. Edit2: Since it probably isn't obvious enough, I'll say that youtube is a very strong free asset to have. You can even get paid to produce good content there, just like twitch. The number of people who visit that site is ungodly. If you want to make SC2 more popular, make some good content for the boys over there and hope you get recommended/related videos on some other games/etc. I know Husky and Day9 have a ton of subs, but the more people that throw into the mix with interesting stuff, the better. Seriously, do not underestimate the free PR and advertising that youtube provides. | ||
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
I know, I know, many people asked for bigger maps, me including. I'm not talking about Metalopolis close positions or Steppes of War. What I'm trying to say is back when maps were smaller, the games were shorter, but also most of the times, much more intense. As the maps got bigger, all the progamers do is just expand, macro-up, get an army, attack and hope to win. Terran matchups are somewhat different than this, as they utilize harrasment from multiple locations etc. but still, it doesn't really change the whole picture. I remember watching Sen vs. Boxer in TSL on Metalopolis, that was such an intense and fun game. Oh, and for those talking about steep learning curve in Sc2, try Dota. 1600 hours in and I still feel like a complete noob sometimes. | ||
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Discarder
Philippines411 Posts
somebody already said: free to play... I think that's it. | ||
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evaniss
53 Posts
Quite a lot of people seems to think that why BW did success in korea is no need purchase to play at the PC cafe so it's free to play and you might to think most koreans have been play BW for 1vs1 mostly since BW was hugely popular in the e-sports BUT you totally wrong, as i posted before koreans have been play for teamplay with friends mostly at the PC cafe also quite many of koreans have been play BW for teamplay at home that's why most koreans understand and familiar to accept BW friendly. | ||
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
On August 13 2013 22:04 evaniss wrote: 1vs1 based game can NOT be surpass the number of users than Teamplay based games even if SC2 change to free to play Quite a lot of people seems to think that why BW did success in korea is no need purchase to play at the PC cafe so it's free to play and you might to think most koreans have been play BW for 1vs1 mostly since BW was hugely popular in the e-sports BUT you totally wrong, as i posted before koreans have been play for teamplay with friends mostly at the PC cafe also quite many of koreans have been play BW for teamplay at home that's why most koreans understand and familiar to accept BW friendly. u can make teamgames in sc2 also... so i think especially for the youth in korea wich doesnt want to pay for all the games the f2p model would give us some more players... sure sc2´s main base is 1v1 but i met in EU and US servers alot of those low level players wich seems to not care about 1v1 and play alot of teamgames (2v2,3v3,4v4, ffa...) | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On August 13 2013 23:05 KOtical wrote: u can make teamgames in sc2 also... so i think especially for the youth in korea wich doesnt want to pay for all the games the f2p model would give us some more players... sure sc2´s main base is 1v1 but i met in EU and US servers alot of those low level players wich seems to not care about 1v1 and play alot of teamgames (2v2,3v3,4v4, ffa...) I've said it a thousand times, but the team aspect of the game needs to be supported! It is simply more fun to game with friends than it is to sit down and ladder by yourself. This is especially true given the aging gaming population- people who were kids when gaming first started taking off are now adults, with jobs and responsibilities. When we have the time to game, we want it to be social and fun, not stressful and solitary. I pretty much only play games these days when my friends are on- I even hate solo queuing MOBAs. | ||
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KaiserKieran
United States615 Posts
In addition, prize money should be taken from the 17th through 32 (like 250$ each) and evenly distributed in the challenger league. This will do 3 things, 1. Make it so that falling out of Premier league is not a huge deal. 2. allow more of a motivation for new players to try and break in to the challenger league since there is at least some money there. 3. Give more money to lower level players as motivation to try and get more in premier. I mean who wants to work hard and spend hours practicing and making it through the qualifiers just to end up getting 25 WCS points that won't even count for anything since they are not good enough to get enough points to qualify for the season finals. It is stuipid and a BS way to give out something. I would much rather see this than what they have now. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On August 13 2013 23:05 KOtical wrote: u can make teamgames in sc2 also... so i think especially for the youth in korea wich doesnt want to pay for all the games the f2p model would give us some more players... sure sc2´s main base is 1v1 but i met in EU and US servers alot of those low level players wich seems to not care about 1v1 and play alot of teamgames (2v2,3v3,4v4, ffa...) BW was mainly team games, fastest map, legends, lurker defense, etc... only a select few were iccup grinders. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
Units like Colossus don't help it all that much. Too strong vs most ground units, too easy counterable from other units (vikings, viper pull insant death). examples: "I made perfect forcefields, sry you are dead" "I missed a forcefield, sry I am dead" "fuck I used psi 1 second too late and now am emped, sry you instant win" "I fungled all your army, sry its gg you have no choice" etc. The way to make the game more interesting is to smooth things out. Why do perfect forcefields have to crush everything? Why does misuse of forcefields lead to instant death? Why do single mine shots can kill 10+ banelings? Where is the strategy? Answer: it isnt there example: TvZ There are no real decisions being made by the players. Its pure stupid mechanics. Its stupidly doing every single game the same thigns with some very minor variations. T goes bio+mine every game and drops/pushes always the same way. Every game is the same. No reason to watch it more than 50 times to see what it is about. Z has to do ling/bling vs the bio and muta vs the drops. Things are not getting better without fundamental changes of race/unit/balance design. The chance of changing anything at the release of hots was given away. FF still decide within seconds about success or defeat, and the other stuff too. I for myself have hope that it will get better but not in the near future. I play since days of WC2, SC1 and BW. I see friends stopping to play SC2 at all. Some other switch back to broodwar. Others just dont play at all or play other games. I dont enjoy the game anymore myself that much. Z (my sc2 main race) has become something like a 0 fun to play race for me. No room for a bit of individual play or any strategical decisions. Every game is more like a 100% memorized and copied build order with only few possible adaptions, new stuff that is introduced by blizzard made things worse instead of fixing it (mothership core allows no early aggression vs P, mines don't allow early aggression vs T, mines don't allow a comeback vs T when being behind etc.). I also lose interest to watch streams. No matter if innovation vs soulkey or life vs sjow, in the end it is ZvT and about 95% the same that repeats again and again in every single game besides the also quite boring do or die stuff. To help starcraft, these things should be adressed. There are simply more fun things to play than SC2 these days. Especially if you are not out for being a progamer and earning your money with SC2, stuff is different. I don't see why my 15 minute game of Protoss vs X solely depends on a few forcefields and if I miss that I instantly lose the game and if the opponent commits too much vs my forcefields and I do them well I instantly win the game. Why would casual players bother with this kind of stuff? Watching might be more fun for some time but not after things only keep to repeat exactly the same way in almost every game. In BW e.g. there were several openers for every race that the opponent had to find out and react on. | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1961 Posts
On August 14 2013 01:34 LSN wrote: SC2 never has been more fun than sc:bw to me. Too fast tech up, too fast reaching 200/200, too fast battles, too few decisions/actions that decide about win or lose (hellow widow mine shot), too many units that try to be special (hello oracle), too strong and easy to execute spells (bambambam I forcefielded all your army, I sniped all your army, I fungaled all your army, I emped all your army, I psied all your army, etc.). Units like Colossus don't help it all that much. Too strong vs most ground units, too easy counterable from other units (vikings, viper pull insant death). examples: "I made perfect forcefields, sry you are dead" "I missed a forcefield, sry I am dead" "fuck I used psi 1 second too late and now am emped, sry you instant win" "I fungled all your army, sry its gg you have no choice" etc. The way to make the game more interesting is to smooth things out. Why do perfect forcefields have to crush everything? Why does misuse of forcefields lead to instant death? Why do single mine shots can kill 10+ banelings? Where is the strategy? Answer: it isnt there example: TvZ There are no real decisions being made by the players. Its pure stupid mechanics. Its stupidly doing every single game the same thigns with some very minor variations. T goes bio+mine every game and drops/pushes always the same way. Every game is the same. No reason to watch it more than 50 times to see what it is about. Z has to do ling/bling vs the bio and muta vs the drops. Things are not getting better without fundamental changes of race/unit/balance design. The chance of changing anything at the release of hots was given away. FF still decide within seconds about success or defeat, and the other stuff too. I for myself have hope that it will get better but not in the near future. I play since days of WC2, SC1 and BW. I see friends stopping to play SC2 at all. Some other switch back to broodwar. Others just dont play at all or play other games. I dont enjoy the game anymore myself that much. Z (my sc2 main race) has become something like a 0 fun to play race for me. No room for a bit of individual play or any strategical decisions. Every game is more like a 100% memorized and copied build order with only few possible adaptions, new stuff that is introduced by blizzard made things worse instead of fixing it (mothership core allows no early aggression vs P, mines don't allow early aggression vs T, mines don't allow a comeback vs T when being behind etc.). I also lose interest to watch streams. No matter if innovation vs soulkey or life vs sjow, in the end it is ZvT and about 95% the same that repeats again and again in every single game besides the also quite boring do or die stuff. To help starcraft, these things should be adressed. There are simply more fun things to play than SC2 these days. Especially if you are not out for being a progamer and earning your money with SC2, stuff is different. I don't see why my 15 minute game of Protoss vs X solely depends on a few forcefields and if I miss that I instantly lose the game and if the opponent commits too much vs my forcefields and I do them well I instantly win the game. Why would casual players bother with this kind of stuff? Watching might be more fun for some time but not after things only keep to repeat exactly the same way in almost every game. In BW e.g. there were several openers for every race that the opponent had to find out and react on. This. BTW Hi lonic. Last time i told you this Watching might be more fun for some time but not after things only keep to repeat exactly the same way in almost every game. In BW e.g. there were several openers for every race that the opponent had to find out and react on. you told me iam wrong... | ||
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forumtext
575 Posts
Increase mineral/geyser size? Even bigger maps? SC2 need to try something drastic. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On August 14 2013 01:34 LSN wrote: SC2 never has been more fun than sc:bw to me. Too fast tech up, too fast reaching 200/200, too fast battles, too few decisions/actions that decide about win or lose (hellow widow mine shot), too many units that try to be special (hello oracle), too strong and easy to execute spells (bambambam I forcefielded all your army, I sniped all your army, I fungaled all your army, I emped all your army, I psied all your army, etc.). Units like Colossus don't help it all that much. Too strong vs most ground units, too easy counterable from other units (vikings, viper pull insant death). examples: "I made perfect forcefields, sry you are dead" "I missed a forcefield, sry I am dead" "fuck I used psi 1 second too late and now am emped, sry you instant win" "I fungled all your army, sry its gg you have no choice" etc. The way to make the game more interesting is to smooth things out. Why do perfect forcefields have to crush everything? Why does misuse of forcefields lead to instant death? Why do single mine shots can kill 10+ banelings? Where is the strategy? Answer: it isnt there example: TvZ There are no real decisions being made by the players. Its pure stupid mechanics. Its stupidly doing every single game the same thigns with some very minor variations. T goes bio+mine every game and drops/pushes always the same way. Every game is the same. No reason to watch it more than 50 times to see what it is about. Z has to do ling/bling vs the bio and muta vs the drops. Things are not getting better without fundamental changes of race/unit/balance design. The chance of changing anything at the release of hots was given away. FF still decide within seconds about success or defeat, and the other stuff too. I for myself have hope that it will get better but not in the near future. I play since days of WC2, SC1 and BW. I see friends stopping to play SC2 at all. Some other switch back to broodwar. Others just dont play at all or play other games. I dont enjoy the game anymore myself that much. Z (my sc2 main race) has become something like a 0 fun to play race for me. No room for a bit of individual play or any strategical decisions. Every game is more like a 100% memorized and copied build order with only few possible adaptions, new stuff that is introduced by blizzard made things worse instead of fixing it (mothership core allows no early aggression vs P, mines don't allow early aggression vs T, mines don't allow a comeback vs T when being behind etc.). I also lose interest to watch streams. No matter if innovation vs soulkey or life vs sjow, in the end it is ZvT and about 95% the same that repeats again and again in every single game besides the also quite boring do or die stuff. To help starcraft, these things should be adressed. There are simply more fun things to play than SC2 these days. Especially if you are not out for being a progamer and earning your money with SC2, stuff is different. I don't see why my 15 minute game of Protoss vs X solely depends on a few forcefields and if I miss that I instantly lose the game and if the opponent commits too much vs my forcefields and I do them well I instantly win the game. Why would casual players bother with this kind of stuff? Watching might be more fun for some time but not after things only keep to repeat exactly the same way in almost every game. In BW e.g. there were several openers for every race that the opponent had to find out and react on. BW had very similar problems btw... Walked in range of tank line? Half army is dead. Didn't see the shuttle? 20 units die to Reavers. Noticed one mine pop up without an observer? The other 12 mines kill your front line. Forgot to scan? lol lurkers kill 30 marines. Less than 30 turrets? lol 11 Mutalisks destroy your base. BW very much had the same insta-gib scenarios as SC2 has. The difference comes from difficulty of execution. Landing two storms in a mineral line was *HARD* in BW. Getting your spidermines to kill dragoons instead of getting dragged by zealots? HARD AS HELL! Lurker Hold? Hard. Muta ball? Hard. etc... So when you died to a Reaver Drop--you didn't curse the screen because when you yourself tried to do a reaver drop you realized it was so hard that it better be worth the output. And watching a game where all these difficult maneuvers happened all the time was breathtaking. MKP vs Kyrix was a GREAT moment in SC2 because people saw something that was assumed was too difficult to do. Now everyone does it, so why is it impressive? Parting Storms was breathtaking until even foreigners do it regularly. Why were Jangi storms good? Because there were maybe 2-3 other people in the world who could do it. Why were Bisu probes good? Because only Bisu had the skill to do it. Even foreigners can land good forcefields. Even foreigners can micro widow mines while doing a hellbat drop. BW had exclusivity at the cost of an awful foreign scene. SC2 has a great foreign scene, at the cost of exclusivity. MKP was amazing, until everyone could stutter stepped and marine split like he did. Losira was a godsend--until his APM efficiency became the minimum standard required to play the game. Its a give and take. Without exclusivity, we won't have Terrorist Vultures, Zero Queens, Flash Turrets, and Jaedong Mutalisks. With exclusivity, we will have a greatly shrunk down foreign scene. Take your pick. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On August 14 2013 01:57 forumtext wrote: What kind of changes are needed if we want to see multiple 200v200 battles in a single game? Increase mineral/geyser size? Even bigger maps? SC2 need to try something drastic. Slower game speed and more time between attack animations. The fight has to be slow enough for players to partake in, and the attacks need to be stuttered enough that you can micro during the in-between moments. Also, larger collision sizes as well as harsher collision punishment. Bisu could micro his probes vs lings because when the Ling ran into the probe there was a big enough delay before the first attack for the probe to get away. Larger collision sizes also makes it easier to select a group of units instead of being forced to just box the whole group. | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1961 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On August 14 2013 02:04 TaShadan wrote: In some parts true but there were hardly any 2 second battles. Battles last much longer in bw (in the most cases). Which leads to a more positional and strategic gameplay which is much more enjoyable to watch (atleast for me). I'm assuming this was in response to me  I wasn't disagreeing, simply clarifying. It's not the fact that there are unfair maneuvers in SC2, the problem is that those maneuvers never feel *earned* by the player. Too often it feels like "the thing everyone does." | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1961 Posts
On August 14 2013 02:07 Thieving Magpie wrote: I'm assuming this was in response to me I wasn't disagreeing, simply clarifying. It's not the fact that there are unfair maneuvers in SC2, the problem is that those maneuvers never feel *earned* by the player. Too often it feels like "the thing everyone does." True. The other problems (in my oppinion) are Clumping, no high ground bonus and too high dps. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
Still I see that blizzard is continuing to go the wrong path these days with hots. Instead of addressing severe game design issues like e.g. forcefields they are completely exluding it from their thoughts. Blizzard more and more is driven not to dissatisfy a certain group of players instead of clearly going for the issues. What they do is limiting the game experience more (mines, MSC, swarmhosts, oracle, viper) instead of widening it. @magpie I agree. | ||
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alvictal
Brazil32 Posts
* I Believe that Blizzard could introduce one or two more Races to get some dynamism, new tactics and strategies. * Reduce "The death ball problem", i really don't know how to change this but here is an idea: the number of selected units could be limited, so you will need to control different groups of units, always. * Have a big tournament like the WCS 2012, not season tournaments like this year. | ||
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