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Everyone should go try starbow on EU arcade, it's the game sc2 should have been.
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this thread is made of tears
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There was a problem when Blizzard didn't pick up Dota. They just thought it was another mod that was going to die out. They were too proud to think that a user made map could be successful. Can you imagine in 2008 if Blizzard had hired Icefrog? No lol no dota2. They would rule the competitive gaming market. But they just don't care and refuse to ever admit a mistake.
Instead we still don't have PvP in diablo3 because blizzard decided we would not have fun playing it. Let us decide.
But this is blizzard and they only do it the blizzard way. People have been pointing out problems for years and nothing ever gets done about it.
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Blizzard/Activision is a billion dollar company, why don't you have a full team that bans accounts of obvious maphackers 24/7? Why don't you see that your anti-cheat protection isn't working at all. People are really leaving this game because of this bullshit every day. Your "Warden" system isn't helpful at all in this matter.
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On August 09 2013 23:14 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 23:09 Marjosz wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote:
Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. This post is so much true and explains why sc2 is built up wrong from the very beggining. Not to mention some design failures like forcefields, collosus or warp in. you just hate protoss don't you 
i just hate terrible design of it. compare it to bw.
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Ok you win. GG
BO > One battle > GG, and often even before battle has even finished, way too common and extremely anticlimactic to the viewers. Pro have a much deeper understanding of the game than the average fans, so a pro's "logical GG" is a "WTF GG?" in the eyes of the average viewers.
What a screw up!
Come backs are near impossible in the pro level (hence the instant GGs). Even when they do occur, they are more of opponent's fuck up than the winner's merits - a feeling that's often echoed by the caster and viewers after a come back.
You have 2 options, A move in or R move away.
Anti micro skills are eye sores to viewers after the 9000th time seeing it. "concussive shells" "zealot charge" "FF" "fungal"
Can you name the special ones?
"Micro" and "Macro" are no longer being cheered by the casters as a player's strength because there are too little difference between the pros these days, it's all about "army composition" (aka BO).
Everything look fine from up here.
A lot of fans and Blizzard seems to agree that SC2 is fine in it's current state and there is no need to "save" anything. Even though the WJS(maybe STX) coach made a heart-felt warning regarding saving SC-esport right at the beginning of the PL finals.
Food for thoughts
+ Show Spoiler +Where are all those awesome battle reports for SC2?
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On August 09 2013 23:14 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 23:09 Marjosz wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote:
Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. This post is so much true and explains why sc2 is built up wrong from the very beggining. Not to mention some design failures like forcefields, collosus or warp in. you just hate protoss don't you
More like he just like copy and pasting the same "design" complaints made by other people, who copied them from other people. Its one step above a meme.
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Balance in SC2 is very difficult to implement. 3 races have totally different style of play, and game mechanics.
1.In the begin WOL terran were dominating when zerg and protoss could not find a counter-strategies and used their units badly
Of course it was obvious that the Terrans were stronger and Blizzard released patches every month. The Protoss and Zerg were able to go out in the late stage of the game.
But in the end of the WOL we do not see release for balance patches, but dominance of the zerg on the terran was huge.
[I hope that the lack of patches, it was a commercial move before Blizzard released the HOTS, to sell more copies of games]
2. With the release of HOTS history, compared with WOL, repeats itself - T> P, T> Z [I Terran, so it is difficult to evaluate other match ups], but the early HOTS much balancing than the early WOL.
Experience has shown that a balance is achieved basically not patches but time. It will take at least 4 months to make small changes, and more than 1 year for big changes.
[I hope that Blizzard ignores most complaints PRO players, based on the experience of 1, and not because they do not care on SC2 Community]
Terran - the easiest race to learn with a small potential of power units, small number of development options (BO).
Conclusion: You can not change the balance too early. It should do only when it is too noticeable for small and large, online and LAN tournaments, for a minimum of 2 months.
But the balance is not currently the main problem of SC2.
I fully agree with the "Strelok", the game is losing popularity because of the strong competition with DOTA 2, LoL, etc.
Main profit of professional players - sponsorship team or tournament.
Sponsor is focused on greater number of viewers. Comparing statistics from the site” twitch”, for LoL are watching at least 10 times more viewers. Starcraft 2 has already started to die.
In the future, sponsors will not want to work for a smaller audience.
In final there will remain a maximum of 20 European pro players, the rest of the Koreans, who will fight with each other in major (mini) tournaments, but there will not be small for a smaller audience.
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Step aside SC, dota2 has entered the building.
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Have any of the professional gamers of SC2 ever thought about starting a players association, much like the NHLPA (National Hockey League Players Association)? If I was a pro gamer in the SC2 scene atm, I'd be definitely be concerned. SC2 is probably not going down the path that many of the end times prophets are preaching but it definitely can't be good. Pro players and casters have done so much for Blizzard, and Blizzard have given some back, but it can't compare to the connection that Valve and Riot have with their pro's and fan base. It seems that the ones that are going to suffer the most are the ones making their living of SC2 and that are not at the top of the ladder (no pun intended).
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I'm with you that SC2 is having troubles of balancing atm, but is not the T who is disappearing from the pro scene is the Z, 1 Z 1 T 6 P WCS EU, 4T 2P 2Z on wcs Korea and 3T 3P 2Z on WCS america. And the problem with the ZvT is what all people knows, the widow mine, no pro zerg wants to go macro games against T or, at least, what I've been watching on latest TvZ on differents WCS, with that unit that just doesn't need micro or anything you just make the Z can use the only thin he has, mobility so, in normal case scenario, or the T makes big mistakes on a macro game or the Z goes rush to try to win the game (WCS season 1 finals Soulkey vs Innovation 3 roach baneling bust and in the last game Innovation shackes and makes a ton of mistakes giving full medivacs for free to Soulkey and eventually loses the game). On ZvP the problem are the voidray you need sick micro to be able to kill this unit so you go to the next phase of op play, you turtle like a shit with spores, sh and vipers and try to win the game, the result is evident for 99% of the players: boring games to watch and to play (I'm zerg player and I hate to watch or to play this but is the only way you can bit a P or, you can make an all in and good luck rolling the dices!) I'll would like to watch the win rates atm on this momment, the last thing David Kim said is he wants to change the zerg... I'm really scary, not for normal random players but for the pro scene, but he refuses to see that Z is under the other 2 races atm and he saids that on the last dreamhack was a ZvZ final, which is true, but no good players for T, only lucifron, and no good P players except for Stardust, and big guns for Z players, Stephano, Hyun, JD... so the finals should be ZvZ just by names. I'm sure 90% of T saids that's they have problems with storms and EMP sucks... well, if you think a bit better, Z doesn't even has EMP so the only thing they can do is to get out the umbrella and watch it rain! cause if T players thinks that Storms doesn't hurt to a zerg player you can ask to poor little hydras and lings... and I don't think Storm is that op, you must hit with it at least...
I don't like to watch lol or dota streams... I pref hon stream that are much fun that the 2 games before, but personal preference, but don't worry David Kim doesn't listen, he just stands somewhere and he said that game is balanced meanwhile his little child plays T, it was fun to hear the comentarys of the WCS am from wednesday... why do you think T must be op? answers 1) Cause Humanity must win 2)Cause if not no one would play them and I don't remmember the third option but was something like the 2 before.
Sincerely I just prefered the old bw, much more skill needed, the game was much more balanced and you needed big micro/macro plays to win the games, now is just max your army go big fight and who wins wins the game, except on TvZ where the Z player wins battles muta/lings against bio but banelings goes out so there supplies doesn't go to far away and then the T wins a battle and snowball bio incomming to zerg base and kills everything on his way.
Hope someway somehow David Kim can see what community wants to say him... balance the fucking game for once! and no more units of 1A move and win!, like bio, colossus, ultras, thors etc...
P.D: Forgot to say about the koreans on NA and EU... I'm with you guys, they should be limited places for koreans on EU & NA
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On August 09 2013 23:52 UltraTotoro wrote:
Starcraft forever
I'm with you 100%
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On August 09 2013 23:14 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 23:09 Marjosz wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote:
Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. This post is so much true and explains why sc2 is built up wrong from the very beggining. Not to mention some design failures like forcefields, collosus or warp in. you just hate protoss don't you
Post is very spot on(as you'd expect from a high level player). Of all the times Blizzard did listen I wish it wasn't on trying to make every game a macro game. I think SC2 was setup to be a faster paced, quicker game, that sometimes ended in 5 minutes and sometimes went on for 30 or 40. But it felt like - from the map sizes, to the mechanics - that the idea was fast paced exciting play where action was early and often. However people didn't like that, players didn't like dying to "cheese" and viewers claimed the games weren't fun to watch. We want macro games everyone said. I think this is why some of the mechanics like MBS were in place because you were expected to use more actions early and often in the game and needed to compensate in other areas for that.
However Blizzard got weak, and the game went to bigger maps, units were nerfed/tweaked, easier to defend 3rd bases, and I think they did all this before people really understood the economics and supply features that were put in place. This game is really made to be played on 1-2 bases much longer because your economy is pretty good on 2 bases. Now this is where we are at, big clumps of armies running into each other.
Blizzard wanted to make a totally new RTS, while the fans wanted BW part 2. What we got was this hybrid that isn't really as good as BW.. but isn't a totally different game with a new personality and features. We just got watered down versions of both put together.
I've really enjoyed SC2 and do like playing it, especially team games, but the motivation to watch is getting pretty thin. We just see to much of the same thing over and over and over.
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Might be a whiny post, fueling a large amount of bitches who are just on the forums to whine.. i just can't help but agree after watching even a few games of TI3 and how much support the dota2 client gives to the game
there are SO many things blizzard have just flat out failed to do right, ever since the beginning, and now the alternatives in competitive gaming are so well supported and so easy to get into that sc2 is just not that interesting the casuals anymore
Starcraft is standing completely still
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On August 09 2013 23:23 Marjosz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 23:14 gobbledydook wrote:On August 09 2013 23:09 Marjosz wrote:On August 09 2013 22:44 LaLuSh wrote:
Unfortunately changes at this stage will have no effect anyway.
I never thought infestor or whatever was the balance whine of the "current period" was ever the biggest problem with SC2 -- it was just something people focus their whine on because they think it's the main problem of gameplay. The gameplay's biggest problmes are definitely things you can't ever change with a simple balance patch, so the result is that nobody whines about them.
You max much faster. You reach max number bases faster. Your economy develops faster (...so you hit all caps faster). The game is faster (but defender's advantage is paradoxically... weaker).
So Blizz put in more and more changes so nobody has to die early game to compensate for no defender's advantage... Queen range, Mothership core, Mines, Spores with no evo, ... (not to mention that everything early/mid game has been havily nerfed since WoL to compensate for no defender advantage, game being faster and reaching max quicker: stim research time, blink research time, zealot build time increased, supply before barracks and barracks build time increased, siege tank damage decrease, khaydarian removed, ghost snipe nerf, ghost EMP nerf, reaper build time increase, nexus life and zerg building life increase, warp gate research time increase). All necessary because units are produced in a different way in SC2, and because the game is faster and hits all artificial caps (supply, max bases economy) earlier. If I counted all changes in beta as well to make the point...
Even more matches now go to max supply, max economy, max bases. When SC2 games go to max supply and 3 bases, they are no longer Starcraft games... they become Warcraft 3 games. Nobody wants to attack. Just babysit army like it's a hero.
More likely reason why every non top level Terran quits is because Terran is the only race that still produces units like Brood War. So you have to have some brains and huge amounts of aggression to be succesful. This post is so much true and explains why sc2 is built up wrong from the very beggining. Not to mention some design failures like forcefields, collosus or warp in. you just hate protoss don't you i just hate terrible design of it. compare it to bw.
T is not the only race is still producing like bw, the Z too, the only "little" difference between T & Z on sc2 and broodwar is the reactors and the queen. For the rest i'm 100% with you too just max armies against max armies and gg wp
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its not about balance , its about the game design itself , the basics the units and the ability and the spell casters , time and time again ppl pointed it out,
there are 2 kinds of ppl who watches sc2 right now :
1-old bw guys , who just love rts, trying to justify to themselves that the game is gonna get better , is gonna get to BW lvl "just wait till LOTV" they say .
2-new comers and young ppl who came from wc3 and some new rts games , that found starcraft lore and gameplay superior to other games , and they see it as the best rts of all time,
those the guys who get in the way of ppl pointing out game design issues , overall basics of the game flow,
spectating the game became so boring , supply decides everything , and an early advantage snowballs easy , there is zero or very slim defenders advantage.
if blizz continue like this with lotv , the game will be dead (imo) .
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Honestly Blizz just need to keep the scene alive till Lotv and they are satisfied. It was a fun ride and hopefully a company will create a fun F2P RTS in the future, until then I'll just occasionally enjoy what we have right now and go back to playing Age of Empires.
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This has been stated by Destiny over 9 MONTHS AGO
This is nothing new. Blizzard doesn't care, blizzard won't care.
They will bow out of the esport business soon enough seeing as LoL and DOTA 2 are in an enormous lead.
They do not have the time or resources to allocate into Starcraft 2 esports.
They are pretty much doing it because of its long time legacy.
link to destinys thread below
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/11m21k/starcraft_2_will_be_dead_before_legacy_of_the/
I love this game to death, but shit, why does blizzard have to want to kill it.
Im tired of people of saying "lets wait till next expansion"
HOW ABOUT RIGHT FUKING NOW
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EPT
