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Darrkhan
Finland1236 Posts
Just realized Flash has not played a lot matches lately, hope he will make it back to the top 10 next month  Also Maru's position is good. It's not just that he beat 4-0 Innovation, he also beat: sOs,Effort,Trap,Supernova and Symbol. None of them are easy opponents IMO it is far more impressive to beat those koreans than for example TaeJa beating bunch of foreigners and couple koreans. (He has also same record as Innovation last 10 games) Good powerrank overall! | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On August 09 2013 04:31 opterown wrote: he fell out not long ago and he's back in top 6 yo Top upsidedown 6? | ||
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DidYuhim
Ukraine1905 Posts
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Shellshock
United States97277 Posts
Top 6 in OSL opterown and Arceus were arguing about his GSL/OSL/WCS korea results | ||
Fionn
United States23455 Posts
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Rhaegal
United States678 Posts
On August 09 2013 00:40 Sevre wrote: Pretty good Power Rank, I only disagree with INnoVation being 1st again. Yes he's awesome, but I feel like you give him too much credit for winning Proleague when he hasn't lived up to expectations this month, and in the Bomber piece you concede that he's overrated? Just feels a bit weird. Other than that though spot on. You know Innovation was 17-4 in matches in July, right? | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On August 08 2013 23:42 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Summary, not a predictor: The PR is a rating based on previous results, not a scouting report for who will do well in the future. We can't believe this is not completely obvious. And yet, the reason that Innovation was chosen over Soulkey after Soulkey him defeated in the WCS KR Finals was: On June 05 2013 09:11 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Think of it this way: you have to bet your life on either Soulkey or Innovation in a bo1 against an arbitrary player. Who would you choose? Still can't believe it isn't completely obvious? Good. I can't believe your love for Innovation is so ridiculous. The power rank should be based on who the best player in the month. Innovation had some good game, he did. He also plays a lot and he is a great player. He had a lot of opportunities to show skills, many in team league formats. But Maru smashed him. And he smashed Symbol. Yet since he isn't on a Kespa team and thus doesn't to play as much, and since you love Innovation, you're going to rank Innovation ahead of the man that smashed him. Perfect. It makes absolutely no sense, and no other ranking system in the world works like this. When GSP lost to Matt Serra, Matt Serra shot to the top of the Welterweight rankings in MMA and did not cede that ranking until GSP beat him again. Sure, everybody thought Matt Serra wasn't the best, they thought GSP got unlucky and would beat him the rematch. But what we think doesn't matter, results matter. And GSP's ranking wouldn't have mattered if went and won some fights against lesser opponents either later. But for Innovation it does matter with you guys, because you're blinded by him. Or maybe you guys just hate Maru, because Rain has an easier time to the same OSL finals spot (according to your very own rankings!), yet he is ranked ahead of Maru. Maybe I just fail to see how some WCG qualifiers (remember how far Combatex got last WCG... yeah... tough tournament...) and a team league should hold the same weight as an individual league when deciding who is the best individual player . I mean, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team after they just won Proleague (though I believe that is a rhetorical question, I have my doubts you'd agree due to this crazy power rank... though Innovation is on STX and you guys love him so...)? So why argue that Maru isn't better than Innovation when Maru just swept him? Don't ever forget, the better player at the moment, always wins. And Maru was a lot better when it counted (to the tune of sweeping your beloved #1). And he was the best SC2 player of July. Congratulations Maru. | ||
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Jenia6109
Russian Federation1613 Posts
 INnoVation  Rain  Soulkey in Top3, everything in its right place | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On August 09 2013 05:05 BronzeKnee wrote: Snip. There is a very significant difference between MMA and Starcraft that you're forgetting about: match-ups. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On August 09 2013 05:25 Zealously wrote: There is a very significant difference between MMA and Starcraft that you're forgetting about: match-ups. I don't think you understand MMA then. Some fighters are better on the ground, some standing, ect... and it breaks down further, some are good with submissions, some good wrestling, some good with kicks...Travis Lutter was a superb jiu jitsu fighter on the ground, though his wrestling wasn't great and his standup was poor, so he never held the belt. Think of him as being awesome in TvP, but terrible in TvT and TvP. He matches up well with a kick boxer (Patrick Cote who he beat), but very poorly against someone who can strike and is good at defending submissions (Rich Franklin, who he lost too). The best champions are well rounded, both in MMA and SC2. And how a fighters skillsets matchup with another is incredibly important in MMA. Even so, let's ignore that piece of the argument. How bout the rest? I mean, would you argue that STX Soul isn't the best team after they just won Proleague (though I believe that is a rhetorical question, I have my doubts you'd agree due to this crazy power rank... though Innovation is on STX and you guys love him so...)? So why argue that Maru isn't better than Innovation when Maru just swept him? | ||
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GWdeathscythe
Brazil1091 Posts
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
Soulkey's placement is the only one I really disagree with. He's still #2 in my book over Rain due to also making the ro8 in WCG, having an excuse for going out 0-3 in the ro8 (RoBogus too stronk), having a more dominant run up until Bogus, and he had much better results than Rain up until this season. | ||
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Trasko
Sweden983 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 09 2013 05:26 BronzeKnee wrote: I don't think you understand MMA then. Some fighters are better on the ground, some standing, ect... and it breaks down further, some are good with submissions, some good wrestling, some good with kicks...Travis Lutter was a superb jiu jitsu fighter on the ground, though his wrestling wasn't great and his standup was poor, so he never held the belt. Think of him as being awesome in TvP, but terrible in TvT and TvP. He matches up well with a kick boxer (Patrick Cote who he beat), but very poorly against someone who can strike and is good at defending submissions (Rich Franklin, who he lost too). The best champions are well rounded, both in MMA and SC2. And how a fighters skillsets matchup with another is incredibly important in MMA. Even so, let's ignore that piece of the argument. How bout the rest? Innovation: 17-4. Maru: 6-2. The only games Innovation has dropped were to Maru's sweep, and it's extremely unlikely that Maru could ever repeat that feat again. MMA is not comparable. When Maru beats Innovation he's beating a Terran, not a player who's Terran is really good, Protoss somewhat good and Zerg shaky. It's black and white; the answer is very clear. Innovation's other match-ups are statistically much stronger right now than Maru's. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On August 09 2013 06:02 rd wrote: Innovation: 17-4. Maru: 11-5. The only games Innovation has dropped were to Maru's sweep, and it's extremely unlikely that Maru could ever repeat that feat again. MMA is not comparable. When Maru beats Innovation he's beating a Terran, not a player who's Terran is really good, Protoss somewhat good and Zerg shaky. It's black and white; the answer is very clear. Innovation's other match-ups are statistically much stronger right now than Maru's. First, you're breaking one of the Power Rank rules that the writers seem to occasionally follow. This is based on results, not prediction. It doesn't matter if Maru could or couldn't repeat the feat, he already did it, it is done and it is the results. Second, MMA is a great comparison. vP, vZ and vT are the three matchups that each player focuses on, and pretty much everybody is better in some than others. In the case of both Maru and Innovation, it is TvP, TvZ and TvT. The same can be said about MMA, you go up against people who are good at wrestling, good at submissions and good at striking. Depending on what your skillset is, it changes the matchup. So if you're a good wrestler, you'll face other good wrestlers, submission artists or strikers. Or it could be said WvW, WvSA, WvS. Of course the best of both MMA and SC2 are great at all three. Maru had a great run this month in WCS, and that combined with sweeping Innovation should be more than enough to rank him ahead of Innovation. I mean, he just swept the #1 guy in the world... Finally, I don't understand how you think you can get away with saying things are black and white, and then say that Innovation is better than Maru, and Maru just 4-0ed Innovation. | ||
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PerSe
United Kingdom550 Posts
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
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jeri
Germany335 Posts
@Sevre winning a proleague is imho still count a lot more, than anything else. and he carried his team literaly to the titel for the whole 2013... | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 09 2013 06:08 BronzeKnee wrote: First, you're breaking one of the Power Rank rules. This is based on results, not prediction. It doesn't matter if Maru could repeat the feat, he already did it, it is done and it is the results. Second, MMA is a great comparison. Finally, I don't understand how you think you can get away with saying things are black and white, and then say that Innovation is better than Maru, and Maru just 4-0ed Innovation. This isn't prediction, these are the odds that Maru has given their past results. As mentioned above, it's probable to be within range of variance that Maru pulls out a 4-0. Without better results, theres nothing to show within reasonable doubt Maru can consistently repeat this feat. There is a lack of data. Innovation has more positive data. So instead of overreacting and declaring Maru is the best player in the world right now, it's simply acknowledged with that he took a series off Innovation. MMA is not a good comparison. If you need to compare how stats work then cite the stats in SC2, don't fall back on vague MMA analogies that don't translate completely. I most certainly can get away with saying it's black and white. I never said Innovation is better than Maru, I said Innovation is statistically better than Maru, most especially this month. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On August 09 2013 06:09 PerSe wrote: Innovation is better than Maru, inc. this month. Innovation is also clearly superior in TvZ and TvP. Maru 4-sweeping Inno is well within the possibilities of variance. Again, you're breaking one of the Power Rank rules that the writers seem to occasionally follow. This is based on results, not prediction. It doesn't matter if Maru could or couldn't repeat the feat, or that it was within "variance." Summary, not a predictor: The PR is a rating based on previous results, not a scouting report for who will do well in the future. We can't believe this is not completely obvious. He did it, it is done and it is the results. On August 09 2013 06:15 rd wrote: This isn't prediction, these are the odds that Maru has given their past results. MMA is not a good comparison. If you need to compare how stats work then cite the stats in SC2, don't fall back on vague MMA analogies that don't translate completely. Well I can get away with being black and white. I never said Innovation is better than Maru, I said Innovation is statistically better than Maru, this month. 17-4 vs 11-5. Which one looks better? These are individual rankings. There is an individual league where the best players play, WCS KR. These are the statistics from this month. Maru: 11-5 Innovation: 7-6 When I used to drag race my car (at the track), there was an old saying, "We don't race dyno sheets, we race cars." You might think the 900 HP Supra is going to beat the 700 HP Viper, but we actually race the cars to figure out who wins. Now we play the game to find out who is better right, we don't just look at statistics, right? This was the winner when they went head to head : Maru 4-0 - Advances to the Final. Innovation 0-4 - Eliminated. So who was better? | ||
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