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On July 27 2013 03:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 02:56 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 27 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:On July 27 2013 02:45 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 27 2013 02:41 Plansix wrote:On July 27 2013 02:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 27 2013 02:23 Plansix wrote:On July 27 2013 02:20 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 27 2013 02:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Terrible terrible damage that makes fights end very fast was and still is a valid criticism. Nothing wrong with mentioning it from time to time. Could have been worded a bit better though.
No, it's totally rude to raise a criticism of it. Bitch all you want about unit balance, but fundamental design is sacrosanct and out of limits for discussion More importantly, it can't really be changed at this point, so why ask? He might as well ask "why isn't the dragoon in the game?" because the question would have about as much merit. The interviewer is really just a conduit for the community's queries, so we're to blame for it in a manner of speaking I guess. I happily allow Blizzard to proceed as they see fit, they don't really owe me anything as I've got more than my money's worth out of the game purchase I made. I just dispute some of the party lines they trot out, especially regarding the casual playerbase. Most of my friends who dipped into the game found things like terrible terrible damage REALLY frustrating and not cool or dynamic. I can see that, but I have friends who don't like Dota because "everything isn't on one screen". They don't like scrolling to other parts of the map or being attacked or stunned from off screen. Or getting nuked down without a chance to respond. Does that make Dota bad? No, just not for them. Games like this are not going to please everyone and trying to do that only makes them flat and boring. I would rather Dota be batshit crazy and SC2 being unforgiving and mean than slowing everything down so some people can catch up. See your point is fair, but equally I don't put 'terrible terrible damage' in the same kind of category as you. If the interviewer had demanded automated macro, or something really alien to what Starcraft historically is, I would be in agreement. As it is, discussing how deathball v deathball battles can end really quickly and in a frustrating manner for both players and spectators is a legitimate point of inquiry, to me at least. They acknowledge the issue as well, but have skirted around core mechanical issues at trying to mitigate it through encouraging harassment all over the place. There are things they could do, like make the auto-targeting "less good" but at the end of the day it would only help so much. As long as we can box all our units and A-move them, the death ball will always be an issue. If they wanted to make it better, making protoss less reliant of the colossi for its constant splash damage would go a long way to limiting their "death-bally-ness". But I don't know how you do that. I'm more annoyed by their lack of EVER doing anything with the Collosus, than the actual state of the game at present tbf. I've seen some cool suggestions that don't even involve re-designing anything at the engine level. One which is my own personal one is making Collosus a lot more slow, Zealots without charge and faster passive speed, and tweaking Protoss move speeds across the board. More divergent move speeds makes it harder to control a deathball. There is an advantage in controlling well, if the consequence of A-moving involves your Zealots ahead of your Stalkers/Immortals, and your critical AoE lagging behind. It's by no means at all a good idea, but the general concept of non-engine tweaks to alter deathball play is really unexplored, imo. I don't think the colossi is bad as a unit. I just only want to build 2. Really all protoss needs is a basic ranged unit that can dump out reasonable DPS that doesn't cost a mint(ie, not the immotal) and the colossi problem is solved. That is the only reason colossi are built, is that the stalker can't dump out enough DPS and the immortal is to bursty. I also want a better charge for Zealots. I just want to be able to turn it on myself and control them while they charge. The amount of cool stuff I could do with that would be neat.
IMO the Colossus is a terrible unit. It takes the long range, massive splash damage of a tank and leaves out any degree of positioning, skill and anticipation. It is almost the epitome of an A-move unit and requires only a minimal amount of control. The cliffwalking and ability to freely move over whatever units it wants makes it a big contributor to the one dimensional Protoss deathball. I really wish theyd either entirely remove the unit or at least make it a bit more difficult to control.
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The questions were pretty bad but they aren't nearly as bad as some of the posts in this thread, holy hell!
I guess that is what happens when a game becomes this popular - if lots of people join something, you are bound to get quite a bit of trash too.
I wish TL would revert back to being harsh on the quality of posts. Personal insults, ridiculous balance complaints, and rude language... But nowadays it seems to fly even in the LR threads..
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On July 27 2013 07:10 Cereb wrote:
The questions were pretty bad but they aren't nearly as bad as some of the posts in this thread, holy hell!
I guess that is what happens when a game becomes this popular - if lots of people join something, you are bound to get quite a bit of trash too.
I wish TL would revert back to being harsh on the quality of posts. Personal insults, ridiculous balance complaints, and rude language... But nowadays it seems to fly even in the LR threads..
You could get away with a lot worse threads/insults on TL before sc2beta. Just look up some like 2004 threads lol.
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On July 27 2013 07:18 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 07:10 Cereb wrote:
The questions were pretty bad but they aren't nearly as bad as some of the posts in this thread, holy hell!
I guess that is what happens when a game becomes this popular - if lots of people join something, you are bound to get quite a bit of trash too.
I wish TL would revert back to being harsh on the quality of posts. Personal insults, ridiculous balance complaints, and rude language... But nowadays it seems to fly even in the LR threads.. You could get away with a lot worse threads/insults on TL before sc2beta. Just look up some like 2004 threads lol.
I think I have heard about that, unfortunately I'm not that old school 
Was it really worse than it is now ?
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its funny how he wants to make mech viable with making it easier. way to go blizzard!
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Still waiting on the the Thor buff. I wish Warhound was re-introduced by nerfed.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
Props to the interviewer, hitting hard with some of those questions and not letting Kim side step them.
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On July 27 2013 07:10 Cereb wrote:
The questions were pretty bad but they aren't nearly as bad as some of the posts in this thread, holy hell!
I guess that is what happens when a game becomes this popular - if lots of people join something, you are bound to get quite a bit of trash too.
I wish TL would revert back to being harsh on the quality of posts. Personal insults, ridiculous balance complaints, and rude language... But nowadays it seems to fly even in the LR threads..
Agreed. This is the worst thread I have seen in a long time. Made me sad to visit TL. :/
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On July 27 2013 07:21 Cereb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 07:18 grush57 wrote:On July 27 2013 07:10 Cereb wrote:
The questions were pretty bad but they aren't nearly as bad as some of the posts in this thread, holy hell!
I guess that is what happens when a game becomes this popular - if lots of people join something, you are bound to get quite a bit of trash too.
I wish TL would revert back to being harsh on the quality of posts. Personal insults, ridiculous balance complaints, and rude language... But nowadays it seems to fly even in the LR threads.. You could get away with a lot worse threads/insults on TL before sc2beta. Just look up some like 2004 threads lol. I think I have heard about that, unfortunately I'm not that old school Was it really worse than it is now ?
some, yea.
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Ok, Zerg not OP? Well in the beginning it is very taxing on the micro, especially ZvZ however as the late game progresses Zergs do become much easier to use, assuming your on point with all the injects, cspread and what not. I think David Kim was dodging the questions by pointing out games and correlating race figures to make the game look like its balanced.
Zergs have a multitude of free units. In the late game they have: Upgraded Locusts, Broodlords (though they aren't used as much as in WoL) and Infestors. Both T and P have huge troubles dealing with hordes of those units rushing to their doorstep. Once and offensive line has been setup, again, assuming the Zerg player is not a doofus, the upgraded locusts will almost certainly trade cost effeciently with enough swarm hosts.
Protoss players have the most trouble as their units, though Tier 1 units are strong, they are not as mobile as Terran tier 1 units. Take away swarm host upgrades altogether in the next patch? Nerf the extended time? Swarm host movement speed reduced? Minor damage reduction, attack speed reduction in the next patch? Not all of the suggested changes but maybe some of them?
Give binding cloud a slow movement speed in AoE for the enemy and unaffected for ZvZ? (maybe that will be too much of a headache for ZvZ)
Amplify the damage of Medivacs under a speed boost? Energy cost per speed boost + same cooldown time?
Bring back Khaydarian Amulet upgrade? (A man can dream right?  )
And why didn't any of the Press ask proper questions like actual tips on balance and most importantly the possibility of bringing back 12 unit control? (even 24 unit control)
That will most definitely be the biggest change to the sc2 scene. It could be the "hardcore" ladder in comparison to D3 and it can really show the true skill of progamers. Homage to the Broodwar era. Disregarding the total changes in timing attacks, unit compositions and all, this will not be a downgrade to the game. There could be a separate ladder and a hardcore ladder. It will really bring the excitement out of the game, just like Broodwar did and don't get me wrong, I love everything about SCII, and I know progamers do not "1A" their groups but in the late game, they certainly cannot control 50 units and must think of different approaches to initiate attacks and who can truly out-micro their opponent..
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I still think the problem in regards to balance are the maps. It is already half way into the year and the map pool in tournaments hasn't changed drastically at all. Maybe 3 maps added and 3 taken out of rotation but 80% of the maps that were used at the beginning of HOTS are still being used.
People say that the pros don't want to play on new maps and choose maps they are comfortable with. That is a lame excuse, forcing new maps seems to be the only way to force out a new metagame in SC2. Units aren't as multidimensional as they were in BW, this isn't a bad thing but there are only so many ways you go do a barracks push before it becomes standard. The way to counter this is by introducing new maps that break the current metagame.
People will whine and complain about maps being favored to certain races. So what, that is what a veto is used for.
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sigh, it's looking grim for terran mech. they don't even know what to do lol.
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what a joke, david kim needs to be fired. widow mine a micro unit? it requires zero micro for sub diamond/master to insta-destroy a zerg army with WM, forces zerg to carry a detector everywhere. It introduces more micro for the opponent than it does for terran, not to mention they're cheap as chips so it doesn't matter if you lose a bunch. Broken.
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Northern Ireland26013 Posts
I don't disagree that mines force a LOT of micro from a Zerg, but biomine is a difficult style to execute mechanically
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Russian Federation604 Posts
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On July 27 2013 05:04 c0sm0naut wrote:
i play R and am pleased to read mr kims answers, he seems to know exactly how this game plays. in wings of liberty, it was like they were watching a different game. they now use examples which i find relevant and discuss topics in actual detail
I agree somewhat, they seem to taking a better approach with HotS, and I´m enjoying the higher caution with balance changes.
However, I do feel that they are neglecting certain things when their eyes are stuck at observing the statistics too closely. To me the Raven is a great example of this, I wish they would let terrans use this unit as a part of the metagame but after the futile efforts in beta and like this upgrade Durable Materials (60+ seconds to Auto-turret and PDD) makes it feel like they just decided to discard the whole unit out of their agenda.
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Q: Since the launch of SC2 WOL, Protoss hasn't gotten a lot of championships. How do you see this? Is this because of balance?
David Kim: Overall, Protoss's performance is not weak. In a lot of tournament's Ro32, Protoss has a stable and high presence. This is not a problem of SC2. It seems like there are fewer top Protoss players out there, at least fewer than Terran and Zerg.
And it's settled.
On July 27 2013 12:41 Crankyhobo wrote:
what a joke, david kim needs to be fired. widow mine a micro unit? it requires zero micro for sub diamond/master to insta-destroy a zerg army with WM
This is how Zerg vs Bio was (and still is to some extent) for the bio player for three years. If your account was created in 2011 why didn't you complain about this unfairness before? If you're going to be pushing for the firing of certain employees then the logic you use as a basis shouldn't have contradictions.
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On July 27 2013 12:41 Crankyhobo wrote:
what a joke, david kim needs to be fired. widow mine a micro unit? it requires zero micro for sub diamond/master to insta-destroy a zerg army with WM, forces zerg to carry a detector everywhere. It introduces more micro for the opponent than it does for terran, not to mention they're cheap as chips so it doesn't matter if you lose a bunch. Broken.
I thought the point of the widow mine was to help even up the amount of micro and army control required between Terran and the other races. Am I just imagining that? Because I coulda sworn that Blizz said something along those lines during beta.
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I think it was meant to offer cheap "board" control and help mech play.
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so people can just sit in this thread and repeatedly call David Kim an "idiot", say he should be fired, etc. and it's np? i've experienced much harsher moderation on TL. that being said, i didn't gain much from this interview.
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EPT
