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On July 10 2013 05:44 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 05:35 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 05:10 Snowbear wrote:On July 10 2013 04:21 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 04:19 VayneAuthority wrote:On July 10 2013 04:16 IMPrime wrote:
The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though. what, you don't want to see units that can't attack each other duke it out? I thought that was every spectators dream. Cloak banshee's will be in your base 30 seconds faster. If Blizzard thought this would help TvT then then reason is beyond them. Nope, it will take exact same time. Factory and starport are still same cost, but the difference is you don't need a second gas. Normally you have to wait quite a bit, 20-30 seconds, after researching cloak to make a banshee. Now you can make both at the same time. Meaning cloak banshee in your base 30 sounds faster.... like I said. Nope, it lines up perfectly, you never have to wait mate
do you even play Terran?
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On July 10 2013 05:35 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 05:10 Snowbear wrote:On July 10 2013 04:21 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 04:19 VayneAuthority wrote:On July 10 2013 04:16 IMPrime wrote:
The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though. what, you don't want to see units that can't attack each other duke it out? I thought that was every spectators dream. Cloak banshee's will be in your base 30 seconds faster. If Blizzard thought this would help TvT then then reason is beyond them. Nope, it will take exact same time. Factory and starport are still same cost, but the difference is you don't need a second gas. Normally you have to wait quite a bit, 20-30 seconds, after researching cloak to make a banshee. Now you can make both at the same time. Meaning cloak banshee in your base 30 sounds faster.... like I said.
No. If you rax 12 gaz 13 facto @100 gaz and the 2nd gaz right after, you will have exactly 350 min and 300 gaz.
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On July 10 2013 05:48 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 05:35 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 05:10 Snowbear wrote:On July 10 2013 04:21 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 04:19 VayneAuthority wrote:On July 10 2013 04:16 IMPrime wrote:
The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though. what, you don't want to see units that can't attack each other duke it out? I thought that was every spectators dream. Cloak banshee's will be in your base 30 seconds faster. If Blizzard thought this would help TvT then then reason is beyond them. Nope, it will take exact same time. Factory and starport are still same cost, but the difference is you don't need a second gas. Normally you have to wait quite a bit, 20-30 seconds, after researching cloak to make a banshee. Now you can make both at the same time. Meaning cloak banshee in your base 30 sounds faster.... like I said. No. If you rax 12 gaz 13 facto @100 gaz and the 2nd gaz right after, you will have exactly 350 min and 300 gaz.
Was talking about gas first. 12 rax is an inferior build
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On July 10 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 05:48 Faust852 wrote:On July 10 2013 05:35 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 05:10 Snowbear wrote:On July 10 2013 04:21 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 04:19 VayneAuthority wrote:On July 10 2013 04:16 IMPrime wrote:
The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though. what, you don't want to see units that can't attack each other duke it out? I thought that was every spectators dream. Cloak banshee's will be in your base 30 seconds faster. If Blizzard thought this would help TvT then then reason is beyond them. Nope, it will take exact same time. Factory and starport are still same cost, but the difference is you don't need a second gas. Normally you have to wait quite a bit, 20-30 seconds, after researching cloak to make a banshee. Now you can make both at the same time. Meaning cloak banshee in your base 30 sounds faster.... like I said. No. If you rax 12 gaz 13 facto @100 gaz and the 2nd gaz right after, you will have exactly 350 min and 300 gaz. Was talking about gas first. 12 rax is an inferior build
Inferior ? Lol you have quite a fast judgment about builds. 12/13 is the most used build for fast banshee cloak.
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On July 10 2013 05:58 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 05:48 Faust852 wrote:On July 10 2013 05:35 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 05:10 Snowbear wrote:On July 10 2013 04:21 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 04:19 VayneAuthority wrote:On July 10 2013 04:16 IMPrime wrote:
The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though. what, you don't want to see units that can't attack each other duke it out? I thought that was every spectators dream. Cloak banshee's will be in your base 30 seconds faster. If Blizzard thought this would help TvT then then reason is beyond them. Nope, it will take exact same time. Factory and starport are still same cost, but the difference is you don't need a second gas. Normally you have to wait quite a bit, 20-30 seconds, after researching cloak to make a banshee. Now you can make both at the same time. Meaning cloak banshee in your base 30 sounds faster.... like I said. No. If you rax 12 gaz 13 facto @100 gaz and the 2nd gaz right after, you will have exactly 350 min and 300 gaz. Was talking about gas first. 12 rax is an inferior build Inferior ? Lol you have quite a fast judgment about builds. 12/13 is the most used build for fast banshee cloak.
It hits considerably later than gas first, which is what we're discussing. With gas first cloak banshee (which is the fastest possible cloak banshee) you didn't have enough gas for both cloak and the banshee as soon as it finished, now you will.
edit: and I'm fairly certain gas first CB is the most used.
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On July 10 2013 05:44 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 05:35 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 05:10 Snowbear wrote:On July 10 2013 04:21 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 04:19 VayneAuthority wrote:On July 10 2013 04:16 IMPrime wrote:
The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though. what, you don't want to see units that can't attack each other duke it out? I thought that was every spectators dream. Cloak banshee's will be in your base 30 seconds faster. If Blizzard thought this would help TvT then then reason is beyond them. Nope, it will take exact same time. Factory and starport are still same cost, but the difference is you don't need a second gas. Normally you have to wait quite a bit, 20-30 seconds, after researching cloak to make a banshee. Now you can make both at the same time. Meaning cloak banshee in your base 30 sounds faster.... like I said. Nope, it lines up perfectly, you never have to wait mate
It will be faster bc it still takes time to build the second refinery for 200 gas cloak, and it takes time to mine that extra 100 gas..
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I am just happy we even have hell bats 
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These changes are ridiculous.
Cheaper cloak banshee will only affect TvT, because Zerg and Protoss makes early detection anyway for widow mines.
The detection is also very cheap and easy to come by, 1 spore/cannon per base or oracle/observer + MsCore Overcharge to defend. There is a reason why banshees(especially /w cloak) are rarely used in HoTs at high level play in TvP and TvZ.
What these changes do, is make the use of hellbats in real army situations more difficult.
They will be useless before their upgrade and if you are playing bio, you will have to spend extra resources/time on having a factory with a tech lab for 3minutes,making 1 hellbat per cycle, which in the end means it's not a viable option for bio.If you are using mines as well then you will be stuck with a factory and a tech lab for a very long time.
The simple answer to hellbat drop is to remove the BIO tag, so that medivacs can't heal them anymore,thus reducing the drop potency and allowing you to defend the drops with a few units since they won't be able to heal up constantly.
That is were the real issue lies, not rendering the hellbat useless until 3+ bases.
What will happen now we are swapping hellbat drops to fast cloak banshees for TvT only, while removing the hellbat from bio in the other matchups.
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I would have thought it was for sure that they'd just Remove the Bio Tag of Hellbats .
I can't believe they've gone this route.
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On July 10 2013 02:12 jkim91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 23:18 Survivor61316 wrote:On July 09 2013 16:12 GulpyBlinkeyes wrote:I personally hate defending against banshees, but I appreciate what it seems like Bliz is trying to do. The cloak cost reduction isn't that huge, but if it nudges people toward a greater diversity of openings, then I'm all for it. On July 09 2013 15:50 MVK wrote:
I don't see a reason why zergs don't need evo chamber to make spores, protoss needs forge to build cannon (150 mineral for air and ground defense + detection...) Take a few moments to imagine what a cannon rush would look like if the protoss didn't need to build a forge before building cannons. He's not saying that toss should be able to make cannons without a forge, but that zerg should not be the only race that can make their detector static defense without an additional building... What? you need a spawning pool for a spore crawler.
I think the key here is additional building. Terran needs ebay in ADDITION to rax and toss needs forge in ADDITION to gateway. Strange how widow mines are screwing over banshees in TvZ balance.
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On July 10 2013 06:01 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 05:58 Faust852 wrote:On July 10 2013 05:57 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 05:48 Faust852 wrote:On July 10 2013 05:35 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 05:10 Snowbear wrote:On July 10 2013 04:21 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 04:19 VayneAuthority wrote:On July 10 2013 04:16 IMPrime wrote:
The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though. what, you don't want to see units that can't attack each other duke it out? I thought that was every spectators dream. Cloak banshee's will be in your base 30 seconds faster. If Blizzard thought this would help TvT then then reason is beyond them. Nope, it will take exact same time. Factory and starport are still same cost, but the difference is you don't need a second gas. Normally you have to wait quite a bit, 20-30 seconds, after researching cloak to make a banshee. Now you can make both at the same time. Meaning cloak banshee in your base 30 sounds faster.... like I said. No. If you rax 12 gaz 13 facto @100 gaz and the 2nd gaz right after, you will have exactly 350 min and 300 gaz. Was talking about gas first. 12 rax is an inferior build Inferior ? Lol you have quite a fast judgment about builds. 12/13 is the most used build for fast banshee cloak. It hits considerably later than gas first, which is what we're discussing. With gas first cloak banshee (which is the fastest possible cloak banshee) you didn't have enough gas for both cloak and the banshee as soon as it finished, now you will. edit: and I'm fairly certain gas first CB is the most used.
Gas 1st dies horribly to any reaper play. Horribly.
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After watching byong and innovation I feel they should maybe remove the bio tag because hellbats are generally balancing themselves out although I do think the damage needs to be slightly toned down just a little they kill scvs way too fast even pro players lose 20 in 2 seconds if they literally are looking somewhere else without instant reaction time. Just not enough leeway with time to save them in my opinion
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I just had an alert asking to allow blizzard to run something. Does anyone know if the change is today?
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Anyone think the banshee cloak buff would make 1-1-1 stronger versus toss? you can now go Raven first AND still get cloakshees in time. With a faster raven and free siege, you can throw down 2 pdds :O
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On July 10 2013 07:11 Afterstar wrote:
These changes are ridiculous.
Cheaper cloak banshee will only affect TvT, because Zerg and Protoss makes early detection anyway for widow mines.
The detection is also very cheap and easy to come by, 1 spore/cannon per base or oracle/observer + MsCore Overcharge to defend. There is a reason why banshees(especially /w cloak) are rarely used in HoTs at high level play in TvP and TvZ.
What these changes do, is make the use of hellbats in real army situations more difficult.
They will be useless before their upgrade and if you are playing bio, you will have to spend extra resources/time on having a factory with a tech lab for 3minutes,making 1 hellbat per cycle, which in the end means it's not a viable option for bio.If you are using mines as well then you will be stuck with a factory and a tech lab for a very long time.
The simple answer to hellbat drop is to remove the BIO tag, so that medivacs can't heal them anymore,thus reducing the drop potency and allowing you to defend the drops with a few units since they won't be able to heal up constantly.
That is were the real issue lies, not rendering the hellbat useless until 3+ bases.
What will happen now we are swapping hellbat drops to fast cloak banshees for TvT only, while removing the hellbat from bio in the other matchups.
I actually agree with everything you said.
I just think it is a good change.
Hellbats should not be the automatic go-to in every game.
For basically 3 months, Terrans have used hellbats in all matchups and in every composition.
It has gotten very boring to watch.
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On July 10 2013 07:56 GinDo wrote:
Gas 1st dies horribly to any reaper play. Horribly.
Nope, even 2 rax reapers can be defended as long as the gas first build order involves continuous Marine production. You will need to pull 2-3 SCVs to shield at some timings when his Reaper squad can prevail against your Marines, but otherwise it's OK.
On July 10 2013 08:13 LOLZEY wrote:
Anyone think the banshee cloak buff would make 1-1-1 stronger versus toss? you can now go Raven first AND still get cloakshees in time. With a faster raven and free siege, you can throw down 2 pdds :O
1-1-1 doesn't exist in HotS.
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On July 10 2013 08:13 LOLZEY wrote:
Anyone think the banshee cloak buff would make 1-1-1 stronger versus toss? you can now go Raven first AND still get cloakshees in time. With a faster raven and free siege, you can throw down 2 pdds :O
Nexus cannon anally demolishes 1-1-1. Unless PDD stops nexus cannon? Even then I don't see it working..
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On July 10 2013 08:28 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 08:13 LOLZEY wrote:
Anyone think the banshee cloak buff would make 1-1-1 stronger versus toss? you can now go Raven first AND still get cloakshees in time. With a faster raven and free siege, you can throw down 2 pdds :O Nexus cannon anally demolishes 1-1-1. Unless PDD stops nexus cannon? Even then I don't see it working..
it's not that protoss can't get the units they used to, to stop a 1-1-1 now. Nexus cannon is just a nearly free bonus to them. 1-1-1 was already dead in the late WoL stages, there is absolutely no reason, why it should work now.
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1/1/1 died because they removed all the maps it was broken on, which at one point was almost all of them. Beating 1/1/1 in WoL requires a choke out of range of your natural that you can drop FFs and stall, which no maps had then and almost all do now. I can definitely see it coming back on a few maps now that don't have any chokes since you can get a PDD to totally negate the nexus cannon, like Neo Planet S where you can siege your tanks behind that little stump making up the natural choke and still hit the nexus.
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I wonder if they did any internal testing... since there was no call to balance this time. It might still be that the timing is still good enough in TvT that everyone just get the upgrade then proceed to hellbat drop each other anyways. It'd be the funniest thing.
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EPT
