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On July 09 2013 23:27 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 23:18 Survivor61316 wrote:On July 09 2013 16:12 GulpyBlinkeyes wrote:I personally hate defending against banshees, but I appreciate what it seems like Bliz is trying to do. The cloak cost reduction isn't that huge, but if it nudges people toward a greater diversity of openings, then I'm all for it. On July 09 2013 15:50 MVK wrote:
I don't see a reason why zergs don't need evo chamber to make spores, protoss needs forge to build cannon (150 mineral for air and ground defense + detection...) Take a few moments to imagine what a cannon rush would look like if the protoss didn't need to build a forge before building cannons. He's not saying that toss should be able to make cannons without a forge, but that zerg should not be the only race that can make their detector static defense without an additional building... zerg is also the only race without friendly fire AoE Protoss: storm damages own units Terran: siege tank splash, WM AoE, hunter seeker Zerg: ??? deal with it/I am Ron Burgundy?
Are you looking at overall race balance based on this tiny aspect of the game, or are you making fun of people who do?
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I don't know if this will change unit compositions, or merely just make games a little bit longer because a Terran player will be prone to just defending until the research is finished and Hellbats are back to their normal strength. Though that would probably decrease the early terror of Hellbat drops, hunh. Well, time will tell.
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On July 10 2013 02:16 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 23:27 ref4 wrote:On July 09 2013 23:18 Survivor61316 wrote:On July 09 2013 16:12 GulpyBlinkeyes wrote:I personally hate defending against banshees, but I appreciate what it seems like Bliz is trying to do. The cloak cost reduction isn't that huge, but if it nudges people toward a greater diversity of openings, then I'm all for it. On July 09 2013 15:50 MVK wrote:
I don't see a reason why zergs don't need evo chamber to make spores, protoss needs forge to build cannon (150 mineral for air and ground defense + detection...) Take a few moments to imagine what a cannon rush would look like if the protoss didn't need to build a forge before building cannons. He's not saying that toss should be able to make cannons without a forge, but that zerg should not be the only race that can make their detector static defense without an additional building... zerg is also the only race without friendly fire AoE Protoss: storm damages own units Terran: siege tank splash, WM AoE, hunter seeker Zerg: ??? deal with it/I am Ron Burgundy? Are you looking at overall race balance based on this tiny aspect of the game, or are you making fun of people who do?
what do you think?
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Widow mine into banshee play is gonna be so much stronger. This will be interesting.
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On July 09 2013 23:27 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 23:18 Survivor61316 wrote:On July 09 2013 16:12 GulpyBlinkeyes wrote:I personally hate defending against banshees, but I appreciate what it seems like Bliz is trying to do. The cloak cost reduction isn't that huge, but if it nudges people toward a greater diversity of openings, then I'm all for it. On July 09 2013 15:50 MVK wrote:
I don't see a reason why zergs don't need evo chamber to make spores, protoss needs forge to build cannon (150 mineral for air and ground defense + detection...) Take a few moments to imagine what a cannon rush would look like if the protoss didn't need to build a forge before building cannons. He's not saying that toss should be able to make cannons without a forge, but that zerg should not be the only race that can make their detector static defense without an additional building... zerg is also the only race without friendly fire AoE Protoss: storm damages own units Terran: siege tank splash, WM AoE, hunter seeker Zerg: ??? deal with it/I am Ron Burgundy?
what a joke, isn't baneling AoE ? on other hand, what the only race have strongest free units ? swarmhost broodlord infes terran lmao
edit: sorry bout AoE part, didn't see ' friendly ' word
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On July 10 2013 03:43 Porishan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 23:27 ref4 wrote:On July 09 2013 23:18 Survivor61316 wrote:On July 09 2013 16:12 GulpyBlinkeyes wrote:I personally hate defending against banshees, but I appreciate what it seems like Bliz is trying to do. The cloak cost reduction isn't that huge, but if it nudges people toward a greater diversity of openings, then I'm all for it. On July 09 2013 15:50 MVK wrote:
I don't see a reason why zergs don't need evo chamber to make spores, protoss needs forge to build cannon (150 mineral for air and ground defense + detection...) Take a few moments to imagine what a cannon rush would look like if the protoss didn't need to build a forge before building cannons. He's not saying that toss should be able to make cannons without a forge, but that zerg should not be the only race that can make their detector static defense without an additional building... zerg is also the only race without friendly fire AoE Protoss: storm damages own units Terran: siege tank splash, WM AoE, hunter seeker Zerg: ??? deal with it/I am Ron Burgundy? what a joke, isn't baneling AoE ? on other hand, what the only race have strongest free units ? swarmhost broodlord infes terran lmao
He's talking about friendly splash. But yes, still off-topic.
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I don´t know what the effects of the cloack buff really are because I haven´t played the test map, but I trust the people who did try them out ... I hope 2 starport cloack banshee doesn´t become "a thing" anymore ... it was for sure the most fucking annoying thing in the world as protoss in WoL. If this is the case, I´ll be most likely forced to open a very fucking quick robo for the observer ... although MS core may help quite a bit now with photon overcharge. We´ll see !
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On July 10 2013 02:16 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 23:27 ref4 wrote:On July 09 2013 23:18 Survivor61316 wrote:On July 09 2013 16:12 GulpyBlinkeyes wrote:I personally hate defending against banshees, but I appreciate what it seems like Bliz is trying to do. The cloak cost reduction isn't that huge, but if it nudges people toward a greater diversity of openings, then I'm all for it. On July 09 2013 15:50 MVK wrote:
I don't see a reason why zergs don't need evo chamber to make spores, protoss needs forge to build cannon (150 mineral for air and ground defense + detection...) Take a few moments to imagine what a cannon rush would look like if the protoss didn't need to build a forge before building cannons. He's not saying that toss should be able to make cannons without a forge, but that zerg should not be the only race that can make their detector static defense without an additional building... zerg is also the only race without friendly fire AoE Protoss: storm damages own units Terran: siege tank splash, WM AoE, hunter seeker Zerg: ??? deal with it/I am Ron Burgundy? Are you looking at overall race balance based on this tiny aspect of the game, or are you making fun of people who do?
I think the only answer to this question is yes.
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I like only the banshee change because now I have to get a tech lab factory in TvZ and TvP just to get pre-ignitor for my hellbats when all this time they are trying to just nerf them in early game TvT. Meh, I'm sure it's still better than before though probably.
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The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though.
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On July 10 2013 04:16 IMPrime wrote:
The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though.
what, you don't want to see units that can't attack each other duke it out? I thought that was every spectators dream.
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On July 10 2013 04:19 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 04:16 IMPrime wrote:
The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though. what, you don't want to see units that can't attack each other duke it out? I thought that was every spectators dream.
Cloak banshee's will be in your base 30 seconds faster. If Blizzard thought this would help TvT then then reason is beyond them.
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On July 10 2013 04:21 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 04:19 VayneAuthority wrote:On July 10 2013 04:16 IMPrime wrote:
The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though. what, you don't want to see units that can't attack each other duke it out? I thought that was every spectators dream. Cloak banshee's will be in your base 30 seconds faster. If Blizzard thought this would help TvT then then reason is beyond them.
I am personally looking forward to all the hilarious pro games of banshees crossing eachother on the map as they go to harass the other base, unable to kill each other. Then both players will switch to viking, another boring unit. Then they will both have 20 expansions and duke it out with mech/viking just like before.
Matchup solved!
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On July 10 2013 04:16 IMPrime wrote:
The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though.
Since when was opening banshees tvz bad? Zerg early game isn't all that different from WoL and that was almost all Hellion/banshee into 3 CC. What changed to make this bad?
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On July 10 2013 04:28 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 04:16 IMPrime wrote:
The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though. Since when was opening banshees tvz bad? Zerg early game isn't all that different from WoL and that was almost all Hellion/banshee into 3 CC. What changed to make this bad?
Spore crawlers now only require a pool.
However, I agree with you. You can still get harassment done vs. static defense with cloakshees. It'll just require more micro than in WoL/current hellbat drops.
Also, forcing too many spores is the same as doing damage...
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On July 10 2013 04:33 tili wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 04:28 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 10 2013 04:16 IMPrime wrote:
The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though. Since when was opening banshees tvz bad? Zerg early game isn't all that different from WoL and that was almost all Hellion/banshee into 3 CC. What changed to make this bad? Spore crawlers now only require a pool. However, I agree with you. You can still get harassment done vs. static defense with cloakshees. It'll just require more micro than in WoL/current hellbat drops. Also, forcing too many spores is the same as doing damage...
Zerg playstyle has come back to mutas, which banshees are obviously a lot worse off compared to vs infestors. Before this nerf hellbats and medivacs simply were useful further into the midgame compared to cloakshees which can probably do around similar dmg, but have pretty much no usefulness in the midgame. Banshee hellion just started really after zerg stopped going mutas.
The difference is still going to be that with banshees you are safer against busts, which might allow terran be greedier than currently(though I doubt you can really be greedier, for econ you just need 3 cc and for upgrades you already get the 2 engi bays).
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On July 10 2013 04:21 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 04:19 VayneAuthority wrote:On July 10 2013 04:16 IMPrime wrote:
The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though. what, you don't want to see units that can't attack each other duke it out? I thought that was every spectators dream. Cloak banshee's will be in your base 30 seconds faster. If Blizzard thought this would help TvT then then reason is beyond them.
Nope, it will take exact same time. Factory and starport are still same cost, but the difference is you don't need a second gas.
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On July 10 2013 05:10 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 04:21 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 04:19 VayneAuthority wrote:On July 10 2013 04:16 IMPrime wrote:
The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though. what, you don't want to see units that can't attack each other duke it out? I thought that was every spectators dream. Cloak banshee's will be in your base 30 seconds faster. If Blizzard thought this would help TvT then then reason is beyond them. Nope, it will take exact same time. Factory and starport are still same cost, but the difference is you don't need a second gas.
Normally you have to wait quite a bit, 20-30 seconds, after researching cloak to make a banshee. Now you can make both at the same time. Meaning cloak banshee in your base 30 sounds faster.... like I said.
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Get ready for the Theognis build.
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On July 10 2013 05:35 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 05:10 Snowbear wrote:On July 10 2013 04:21 Rhaegal wrote:On July 10 2013 04:19 VayneAuthority wrote:On July 10 2013 04:16 IMPrime wrote:
The hellbat change is a good attempt, and is probably one of two only potential nerfs that would make sense (the other being "remove the bio tag" so that medivacs can't heal them)
Banshees will still not be used tvz. No-evo spores means zergs laugh at banshees forever. Against toss it's still only viable as a rush build, because going fast expo into banshees will never work, observers still just come out earlier. This will make tvt really stupid though. what, you don't want to see units that can't attack each other duke it out? I thought that was every spectators dream. Cloak banshee's will be in your base 30 seconds faster. If Blizzard thought this would help TvT then then reason is beyond them. Nope, it will take exact same time. Factory and starport are still same cost, but the difference is you don't need a second gas. Normally you have to wait quite a bit, 20-30 seconds, after researching cloak to make a banshee. Now you can make both at the same time. Meaning cloak banshee in your base 30 sounds faster.... like I said.
Nope, it lines up perfectly, you never have to wait mate
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EPT
