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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On July 09 2013 17:01 Qikz wrote: I wouldn't say hilarious, I'd more say it'd make the game more interesting. Currently there isn't an early game all in to do vs toss and same against zerg I'd say unless you proxy 3 rax or something. 2port banshee, marauder hellbat etc. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
888 reaper and 2 rax still win games on the highest levels (especially 2 rax, 888 isnt used that much anymore although very strong vs hatch first). on the other hand zerg has no all in (flashs high ground CC first even holds 6 pool easily). all other all ins like roach bane all in or hellbat marauder all in etc. are so late you can scout them and react properly which is fine. on the hellbat nerf + banshee buff patch: AWESOME!! nerf overused (maybe OP) units and buff underused ones = more viable strats for all races. wouldnt mind a small muta nerf (less regen) but compensate it with small buffs to other harrassment tools like nydus/burrow movement/ovidrop. same for P: slightly nerf colossus and buff carrier etc. right now the game is pretty well balanced, now its time to make it more fun with giving each race better access to underused units while nerfing some overused ones to compensate for it. | ||
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Napoleon53
Denmark167 Posts
On July 09 2013 17:05 xxxKagexxx wrote: LOL seems that u learn about fast expand is a strat powerfull ? Not really sure what you mean. My point was that cloaked banshees can be made from 1 gas now. Thereby making it more safe to expand behind it. On July 09 2013 16:36 Qikz wrote: Most of it is because of HoTS. Widow mines one shot banshees and everyone opened hellbats. Protoss has easier detection (Stargate or Robo) so unless he goes 4 gate doesn't outright die like they did in WoL if they didn't get a robo and Zerg have the best early game AA in the game (queens/no evo spores). That's mostly why I believe. Thanks for answer! I guess this makes sense. I didnt know widow mines one shot banshees.. Are you sure about that? Widow mines do 125 dam.. and banshees have 140 hp. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On July 09 2013 17:18 Decendos wrote: 888 reaper and 2 rax still win games on the highest levels (especially 2 rax, 888 isnt used that much anymore although very strong vs hatch first). on the other hand zerg has no all in (flashs high ground CC first even holds 6 pool easily). all other all ins like roach bane all in or hellbat marauder all in etc. are so late you can scout them and react properly which is fine. Thats just nonesense. SoulKeys roach/bane at 8:30 for example is a reactionary counter to CC first into 3ccs and you will have 20 banes at 9 minutes latest with roaches and lings in addition. Its insanely hard to hold off and even if you know its coming there is no proper reaction, as you would have to do the 2 tank - save build to begin with and even then, you will have 1 tank right when the allin hits. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On July 09 2013 17:20 NarutO wrote: Thats just nonesense. SoulKeys roach/bane at 8:30 for example is a reactionary counter to CC first into 3ccs and you will have 20 banes at 9 minutes latest with roaches and lings in addition. Its insanely hard to hold off and even if you know its coming there is no proper reaction, as you would have to do the 2 tank - save build to begin with and even then, you will have 1 tank right when the allin hits. thats exactly what i said?! the other all ins are completely reactionary and if you really know its coming you build 5 bunkers...but most of the time you will see it coming too late and only have 1 bunker + 2 building or so. its still hard to hold off but not impossible. also soulkeys all in works very good vs the insanely greedy 3 CC + 2 ebay + 1 rax + 1 fac only builds which is fine. T learned to scout it better, react better and dont play as greedy anymore. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
I'm going to watch TvT again ! | ||
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Chrono000
Korea (South)358 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On July 09 2013 17:22 Decendos wrote: thats exactly what i said?! the other all ins are completely reactionary and if you really know its coming you build 5 bunkers...but most of the time you will see it coming too late and only have 1 bunker + 2 building or so. its still hard to hold off but not impossible. also soulkeys all in works very good vs the insanely greedy 3 CC + 2 ebay + 1 rax + 1 fac only builds which is fine. T learned to scout it better, react better and dont play as greedy anymore. You said that zerg has no allins or no allins that hit before you can scout them which is plainly wrong. A one base baneling bust is very hard to hold off, even when you scouted it and knowing it doesn't neccessary mean you can hold it off. Also you are wrong about the timings. There are allins (ling/bane) for example, that hit right when your 2 hellions move across the map. You will have no reaction to it, if you didn't scan for it. There is no allin from Terran that CANT be scouted. You can scout 888 as well as 2 rax and I dare to say, 2 rax is no all in by any means if you don't pull scvs. Also, 5 bunkers don't do anything if you don't have the production to put units in there. :x Writing off Zerg as having no offensive options or easily defendable offensive options is just wrong. In addition to that, SoulKeys build also works vs 3 cc, factory and triple barracks before ebays. Its just very hard to hold off, as you have insane amount of banes. For that matter, there's also 1-1 roach timings that are not completely easy to call, as they take a third base and various different options to execute it. It can be pure roach 1-1, pure roach nydus. It can be roach bane. It can be non-saturated third, it can be later with saturated third, it can be with 4th and delayed 2-2.... all of those options are scary even if you know its coming. See Snute vs TaeJa, 7 bunkers + tanks, Zerg still rips through but loses the game later on. So now imagine a not high-class player like TaeJa might only build 3 bunkers, he'll die. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On July 09 2013 07:32 HystericaLaughter wrote: Why do people keep bringing up Innovation's name in this thread? I thought he only recently jumped on the Hellbat bandwagon. He made a name for himself by winning some disgustingly one-sided TvZ series against the best Zergs in the world, where he played a hyper aggressive bio/mine multitasking style. And he played marine/tank with heavy drop play in TvT which was the standard for a while. Innovation is basically just the perfect Kespa robot. He plays what ever style the Korean metagame dictates is the strongest and does it better than anyone else. Everything they touch gets Blizzard watching the units the next day for imbalance... We should ban good players for making units looking one sided. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
Power Overwhelming! The Hellbat change isnt a "fix of the issue" but rather only a delay ... and since the time doesnt really matter that much (because they are just as efficient later on and players wont have built more static defenses anyways) the effect will be just the same. | ||
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worosei
Australia198 Posts
A cloaked banshee to an unprepared opponent, will just end the game. A hellbat drop to an unprepared opponent, can be mitigated to a degree and it wont necessarily end the game there. | ||
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RageCommodore
Germany912 Posts
Ty for that relatvely sensible patch DK. | ||
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Ded808
Australia116 Posts
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v0rtex
123 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On July 09 2013 17:47 Rabiator wrote: Hellbat change wont matter much, because the "problem" of the Hellbat drop is that it costs almost nothing and you can lose 3-4 double Medivac drops and only deal the decisive economic blow with the 5th drop anyways. Sooo ... people will just save up the Medivacs and Hellbats until blue flame is done researching and then go with 4-5 Medivacs at the same time. Power Overwhelming! The Hellbat change isnt a "fix of the issue" but rather only a delay ... and since the time doesnt really matter that much (because they are just as efficient later on and players wont have built more static defenses anyways) the effect will be just the same. I called you out on another balance thread, and I'll do here as well. You called me an arrogant asshole for that matter for calling you out, but the reality is, you don't understand the game at the level you need to, to actually make a qualified post. While the hellbat drops were dangerous for Protoss and Zerg, they were no where near balance breaking or game deciding and eventually, defending the hellbat drops with killing the medivac/hellbats leaves Terran actually far behind, but a player like you will never understand, because they overcommit to defence. Queens are actually a very good call as they are powerful against medivacs and hellbats, they can transfuse the static defence as well. If you go hellbat drops and commit (aka lose the medivac) you will end up way behind. IF you don't commit and save everything, you dealt minimal damage. The marauder/hellbat timing that can follow is strong, but certainly not unbeatable especially when scouted and ling/bane or roach/bane can defend it. If you defend that timing, Terran is more than just behind. I don't even want to start on TvP . | ||
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Kabras
Romania3508 Posts
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On July 09 2013 17:40 NarutO wrote: You said that zerg has no allins or no allins that hit before you can scout them which is plainly wrong. A one base baneling bust is very hard to hold off, even when you scouted it and knowing it doesn't neccessary mean you can hold it off. Also you are wrong about the timings. There are allins (ling/bane) for example, that hit right when your 2 hellions move across the map. You will have no reaction to it, if you didn't scan for it. There is no allin from Terran that CANT be scouted. You can scout 888 as well as 2 rax and I dare to say, 2 rax is no all in by any means if you don't pull scvs. Also, 5 bunkers don't do anything if you don't have the production to put units in there. :x Writing off Zerg as having no offensive options or easily defendable offensive options is just wrong. In addition to that, SoulKeys build also works vs 3 cc, factory and triple barracks before ebays. Its just very hard to hold off, as you have insane amount of banes. For that matter, there's also 1-1 roach timings that are not completely easy to call, as they take a third base and various different options to execute it. It can be pure roach 1-1, pure roach nydus. It can be roach bane. It can be non-saturated third, it can be later with saturated third, it can be with 4th and delayed 2-2.... all of those options are scary even if you know its coming. See Snute vs TaeJa, 7 bunkers + tanks, Zerg still rips through but loses the game later on. So now imagine a not high-class player like TaeJa might only build 3 bunkers, he'll die. first of all: you cant scout 888 reaper if you dont go for a 9 or 10 scout depending on maps which leaves you in a bad economical spot especially if he does a 11 11 rax where you need every minerals. on a 4 player map you cant scout it at all but thats tricky for T also since he has to get lucky to find you so pure gamble....which 1 base banebust is also...a pure gamble T goes CC first. like i said i agree with you that those pushes are hard to hold off but they are much easier to hold off if scouted...and its possible to scout. oh and why do you say every T all in is scoutable? on 4 player maps thats not true at all since ovis are not in position often and even on 2 player maps 2 rines kill slow ovis very fast so sometimes Z scouts it, sometimes not depending on ovi and building placement. | ||
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Kitaen
Austria466 Posts
tanks are a terran core unit and heavily underused in tvz and tvp - mech has no place in tvp and now with vipers, speed hydras and buffed ultralisks even tvz mech has vanished ;( maybe a small decrease in gas (25 less) or a slight overall damage buff/bonus damage to shields thors also lost their place with the addition of mines and the overall weakness of tanks; not that they are bad either but why would you build thors at all now? i woudnt mind seeing a mech buff vs protoss and some good old mech vs skyprotoss since voids are absolutely viable now unless there are tons of marines (which is obviousely the case now) | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
What we do see is double 11 which is strong and the scout alone doesn't help make it easier by a ton, but knowing helps as you said. If you play 15 hatch 16 pool it became standard, but Zergs tend to forget, that this is also greedy. If I go for a lowground CC first and Zergs go for a 10 pool, thats the same situation and I suppose might even result in a cancelled cc more often than a double 11 wins against a FE in a game of equally good players. Double 11 is as much of a gamble as a 1 base baneling bust (14 13) because its only very good against hatch first, it can win against pool first but its not very likely. Against a speed or gas opening, it flat out gets raped often. As you also mention that Terran can scout, as I explained, its not as easy as you make it sound. First of all, Zerg builds can look similar and be different (I already explained) and with speedlings on the map, the only option to scout are scans or hellions. Hellions come late and the reaction time to such an allin is not even a minute. I also disagree with your point about not being able to scout Terran allins, if he prevents scouting with 2 marines, you would need to have a pretty sweet spot for your buildings and as Terran allins come so late (Marauder Hellbat, Marauder Hellion or 3 rax pressure which is rarely allin) it would be a big mistake of y ou to actually not have overlords in position. Besides that point, you got at least an overlord at a position you can see him move out OR zerglings on the map (no reason not to, even against hellions 1 zergling can always sneak by). I am not saying Terrans can never scout an allin or get a hold off it, but you overvalue and overestimate the scouting and timing options for Terran and underestimate how long it takes to properly setup with a short notice for Terran. | ||
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