On May 18 2013 05:30 CoR wrote: also rules say played is played ... both players accept when plöaying it you cant play and then you you lose say "wrong map" "wrong speed" or whatever, that would be redicilous if possible
That's why I said "full lawyer" . But yeah, I guess that's why they have to sign some papers after the match, so it is official that they agree with the result etc
On May 17 2013 23:54 Nekovivie wrote: Well it's not really an issue, as gamespeed effects both players so nobody had a true 'advantage'.
Being allowed more time to micro certain units and in certain situations there is an advantage even though both players experience the game game speed. If I see your attack coming, and it comes at me even slower it gives me that bit of extra time to micro my zealots into a more favorable position which will make them many times more effective than if they got caught out further from your base.
OP clearly has some evidence, my question is, could it be somehow connected to broadcast itself, or VOD coding etc etc ? Maybe it was faster but somehow the video fps or other technical stuff distort it? I mean, yeah it looks as fast not faster speed, but I cannot wrap my mind around the fact that NO ONE noticed that in game/live obsing....
On May 18 2013 05:30 CoR wrote: also rules say played is played ... both players accept when plöaying it you cant play and then you you lose say "wrong map" "wrong speed" or whatever, that would be redicilous if possible
That's why I said "full lawyer" . But yeah, I guess that's why they have to sign some papers after the match, so it is official that they agree with the result etc
There is no full lawyer. Life would lose even if he hired OJ's lawyers.
He completed the entire series, and let the entire group finish. he also let RO8 games finish. Absolutely nothing can be done. It sucks, but alot of people are bringing up illogical things they want to happen.
The only solution is that GOM needs to be tougher on themselves. But this mishap didn't affect the sereies, or the group. Your only deluding yourself if you think a single mishap in a single game was the cause of him losing the entire group, which is what many are insunating. Which nobody can prove at all. I mean shit, Life could have chosen a differnt all-in, such as a 7 roach rush or something, where he could possibly have had the advantage with having units that would have benefited from it and could have won, then sweeped the series because he is amazing. But it didn't happen unfortunately.
On May 18 2013 05:47 Jochan wrote: OP clearly has some evidence, my question is, could it be somehow connected to broadcast itself, or VOD coding etc etc ? Maybe it was faster but somehow the video fps or other technical stuff distort it? I mean, yeah it looks as fast not faster speed, but I cannot wrap my mind around the fact that NO ONE noticed that in game/live obsing....
This has already been discussed in the thread and it has been pointed out that if it had something to do with the VOD the audio should go out of sync or distorted.
On May 18 2013 05:30 CoR wrote: also rules say played is played ... both players accept when plöaying it you cant play and then you you lose say "wrong map" "wrong speed" or whatever, that would be redicilous if possible
That's why I said "full lawyer" . But yeah, I guess that's why they have to sign some papers after the match, so it is official that they agree with the result etc
There is no full lawyer. Life would lose even if he hired OJ's lawyers.
He completed the entire series, and let the entire group finish. he also let RO8 games finish. Absolutely nothing can be done. It sucks, but alot of people are bringing up illogical things they want to happen.
The only solution is that GOM needs to be tougher on themselves. But this mishap didn't affect the sereies, or the group. Your only deluding yourself if you think a single mishap in a single game was the cause of him losing the entire group, which is what many are insunating. Which nobody can prove at all. I mean shit, Life could have chosen a differnt all-in, such as a 7 roach rush or something, where he could possibly have had the advantage with having units that would have benefited from it and could have won, then sweeped the series because he is amazing. But it didn't happen unfortunately.
Its over. We have to move on.
Sounds to me like you're the one that needs to move on.
On May 18 2013 05:47 F u r u y a wrote: PartinG noticed it.
But chose to say nothing.
^^
Thats a bold accusation that can't be proved. For all we know both noticed it, and both chose to play it out thinking it would help them or wouldn't matter at all.Parting may have noticed it like you said, but if any single person noticed it between the two Id wager it was Life. he was the only person using units thats its easily noticeable on. Not easy to tell once you get a handfull of probes (the toggle was a minute in, so neither had small amounts of workers when it happened) and sentrys are already slow. Life should have immediately noticed with speedlings. Cant fault either of them though because we dont know which of the situations occured, and really even if we did we still can only fault the admins.
My issue is that when its changed a game alert takes place. Out of that many people in the game (admin, observer, caster_ how in the hell did not a single one see that and say a single thing in boserver chat to notify them. That it the huge problem imo.
On May 18 2013 05:30 CoR wrote: also rules say played is played ... both players accept when plöaying it you cant play and then you you lose say "wrong map" "wrong speed" or whatever, that would be redicilous if possible
That's why I said "full lawyer" . But yeah, I guess that's why they have to sign some papers after the match, so it is official that they agree with the result etc
There is no full lawyer. Life would lose even if he hired OJ's lawyers.
He completed the entire series, and let the entire group finish. he also let RO8 games finish. Absolutely nothing can be done. It sucks, but alot of people are bringing up illogical things they want to happen.
The only solution is that GOM needs to be tougher on themselves. But this mishap didn't affect the sereies, or the group. Your only deluding yourself if you think a single mishap in a single game was the cause of him losing the entire group, which is what many are insunating. Which nobody can prove at all. I mean shit, Life could have chosen a differnt all-in, such as a 7 roach rush or something, where he could possibly have had the advantage with having units that would have benefited from it and could have won, then sweeped the series because he is amazing. But it didn't happen unfortunately.
Its over. We have to move on.
Sounds to me like you're the one that needs to move on.[/QUOTE]
not sure how you come to that, considering I wanted him to win as much as the rest. But your saying I need to move on when their are about 100 posts+ from different people all clamoring for the impossible because their favorite player lost? Good judgement. Ive done nothing but try to have legit conversations with people about the OP and etc, no need to start making personal judgements for no reason when I haven't really.
On May 18 2013 05:01 Wolfler wrote: People saying its not a big deal aren't thinking straight... Life tried an all-in and every detail could have changed the outcome of it... Every ling or probe, even a split second ealier forcefield changes everything later on. Its too late to change anything, but its very sad for Life. Maybe Parting would hold it anyway, maybe not, we don't know and that's the problem. Life has 22-0 after winning 1st set... Imagine if he won that game? He could be in ro4 right now against sOs. Very sad for Life fans. For me, it's a pretty big deal and something must be done about this, obviously they cant play again, but something has to be done.
1. If the players dont make it to be a big deal, no matter what we as a community think, then its not a big deal.
2. You all keep bringinup up that 22-0 about him winning his first game like thats some kind of good defence. It doesn't matter his particular stats. It only affected one game in the series if it even did that, he still had a chance to win the series without any further mishaps. Just because he is more inconsistent if he loses the first map doesn't mean anything. Thats him, we hsould be looking at this mishap as if it was Player X vs Player Z, not Life vs Parting. The mishap is even larger since its so late in Code S, which compounds it more, but you cant use the players themselves or the stats themselves to make this mishap seem bigger than it was.
3. We aren't saying its not a big deal, were saying its not the end of the world.
I like Life better than Parting, but that doesn't stop me from looking at it objectively without bias towards either one. You can't blame this one mishap on him not making it out of the group of death, there were other games he could have won, and its not even 100 percent for sure that this cost him the game. For all we know he noticed the speed was off because he was the only person using a fast unit, and decided that he wasn't going to say anything thinking it would somehow help him. We dont know, we just simply dont know enough to say that.
edit: It was a very big deal, im sad it happened, but no need for a complete shitstorm about it. Just now GOM needs to be sure they watch this even more. Im still confused as to how nobody noticed when the game cleary gives an alert, and so many observers watching mean somebody had to have seen that alert.
How doesn't matter his particular stats? lol, he was the one playing the game. Well, you admitted it was a big deal, and indeed it was. And how you even think he noticed the speed and that it would help him? Who benefits from it are protoss players, having more time to forcefield and react to zerg's agression.
On May 18 2013 05:30 CoR wrote: also rules say played is played ... both players accept when plöaying it you cant play and then you you lose say "wrong map" "wrong speed" or whatever, that would be redicilous if possible
That's why I said "full lawyer" . But yeah, I guess that's why they have to sign some papers after the match, so it is official that they agree with the result etc
There is no full lawyer. Life would lose even if he hired OJ's lawyers.
He completed the entire series, and let the entire group finish. he also let RO8 games finish. Absolutely nothing can be done. It sucks, but alot of people are bringing up illogical things they want to happen.
The only solution is that GOM needs to be tougher on themselves. But this mishap didn't affect the sereies, or the group. Your only deluding yourself if you think a single mishap in a single game was the cause of him losing the entire group, which is what many are insunating. Which nobody can prove at all. I mean shit, Life could have chosen a differnt all-in, such as a 7 roach rush or something, where he could possibly have had the advantage with having units that would have benefited from it and could have won, then sweeped the series because he is amazing. But it didn't happen unfortunately.
Its over. We have to move on.
Look, I'm not one of those saying life should lawyer up because the series is over and nothing can be done about it. However, you're equally delusional as them saying that change had no effect on the series, when it's clearly a huge difference and probably cost life the series.
Life and Parting should have said something, I very much doubt that the players themselves did not notice game speed was slower than usual. Hosting the wrong game speed happens all the time, every tournament it's up to the players to mention it.
In a perfect world, nobody hosts a game on the wrong game speed. But the world isn't perfect, and a re-host is a simple solution but it will not happen if they players keeps it to themselves.
On May 18 2013 05:01 Wolfler wrote: People saying its not a big deal aren't thinking straight... Life tried an all-in and every detail could have changed the outcome of it... Every ling or probe, even a split second ealier forcefield changes everything later on. Its too late to change anything, but its very sad for Life. Maybe Parting would hold it anyway, maybe not, we don't know and that's the problem. Life has 22-0 after winning 1st set... Imagine if he won that game? He could be in ro4 right now against sOs. Very sad for Life fans. For me, it's a pretty big deal and something must be done about this, obviously they cant play again, but something has to be done.
1. If the players dont make it to be a big deal, no matter what we as a community think, then its not a big deal.
2. You all keep bringinup up that 22-0 about him winning his first game like thats some kind of good defence. It doesn't matter his particular stats. It only affected one game in the series if it even did that, he still had a chance to win the series without any further mishaps. Just because he is more inconsistent if he loses the first map doesn't mean anything. Thats him, we hsould be looking at this mishap as if it was Player X vs Player Z, not Life vs Parting. The mishap is even larger since its so late in Code S, which compounds it more, but you cant use the players themselves or the stats themselves to make this mishap seem bigger than it was.
3. We aren't saying its not a big deal, were saying its not the end of the world.
I like Life better than Parting, but that doesn't stop me from looking at it objectively without bias towards either one. You can't blame this one mishap on him not making it out of the group of death, there were other games he could have won, and its not even 100 percent for sure that this cost him the game. For all we know he noticed the speed was off because he was the only person using a fast unit, and decided that he wasn't going to say anything thinking it would somehow help him. We dont know, we just simply dont know enough to say that.
edit: It was a very big deal, im sad it happened, but no need for a complete shitstorm about it. Just now GOM needs to be sure they watch this even more. Im still confused as to how nobody noticed when the game cleary gives an alert, and so many observers watching mean somebody had to have seen that alert.
How doesn't matter his particular stats? lol, he was the one playing the game. Well, you admitted it was a big deal, and indeed it was.
What I mean by stats is: When deciding what should be done, or how big the mishap is, or how the mishap particularly affected the series; that we should not take the players themselves into account. We should take into account that this was Code S RO16, but we should view this mishap as if it happened to any other of the Code S round of 16 groups. Life being the God of winning series when he wins the first game should affect how big this mishap is. That would be favoritism to God, which may be good because he is God, but in terms of being fair and objective in just how big a deal this is, we shouldn't do it. Neutral standpoint so to say.
I do wish we could just play the whole group over again, just for good measures, but llike alot of others standpoint: thats because i love Life. Alas.
@Fik. I think they did, or at least one of them did. And i think they didn't say anything because they thought they would have an advantage. with that particular speed. Now which or the two or if it was both, we'll never know :/
On May 18 2013 01:17 Assirra wrote: Considering today the same thing happened and it was found out in less then a second i have a hard time believing nobody noticed a whole match being played.
Actually I am pretty sure pro players spotted it during or after the game, but not Life or Parting (or maybe they did and did not tell). This made them cautious of such trouble.
I'm really they felt there was something wrong in that game, maybe they could not point it out but i am really sure they discussed it later on. I can't believe either it got unoticed the first time, i am sure it was. But sadly not from the right people.
Maybe it was matchfixing otherwise...
Don't throw accusations like that around unless you have solid proof.
not throwing accusation, i am trying to make sense over the fact nobody seemed to notice the different game speed. All while PartinG vs. Life is a fairly huge rivalry, at least in Western SC2, I don't know how it's pictured in Korea, probably the same I suppose.
Still: 1) pro players noticed the weird game speed, or something weird during Parting vs Life, discovered it was gamespeed problem, and became especially cautions, which could explain why when it happened again it was spotted right away.
2) nobody noticed, it was a complete accident, that remains a big deal as it gives an unfair advantage to PartinG, and the second time it got randomly spotted, now they are being cautious.
3) Someone tried to give PartinG unfair advantage over Life maybe PartinG did not know about it, maybe he did, nobody will know. I am not saying the 3rd argument is better than others, but it reminds me of match fixing in WC3 in which Romeo, korean orc player, was on the rise to become a real monster, on par with Moon. Yet a former pro player DayFly (true legend innit), discovered the map (which was a custom version of a normal map as it exists pretty much in any league) was favouring orcs by slightly reducing grunt's building time. Nobody noticed it, i don't remember if Romeo was aware, but it took a former pro to notice it and spread it, all while Romeo had been striving on that map for sometimes. The match fixing was evident in that case. Precedent happened.
Match fixing already happened severa l time in South Korea, it is not fantasy to pose that hypothesis.
game speed is only an advantage to parting in the case of a speedling all in. You'd have to know what build Life was planning if you were going to matchfix it with gamespeed.
It leans prett heavily in favor on the side for a protoss. You get more reaction time for basically every little attack zerg can throw at you, perfect spell casts etc. In a micro vs micro situation the protoss should come out on top on slower speeds the vast majority of the time.
I have beef with this statement. All micro for all races are better at slower speeds. Some things that aren't even tried now would be possible (and make the game better IMO) on a slower speed for all races. It would obviously take a lot of playing to see where the balance would fall for each, but I would imagine it'd be very close to where it is now.
A few specific to Zerg I will mention:
- Roach burrow movement micro would be easier. - Perfect ling splits against things like widowmines - easier. - Ling and roach micro against colossi rays - easier. Things like sending in one roach first to trigger colossi attacks then moving in with army. Or changing formation to avoid straight line thermal lance rays. - Zergling pull back micro against zealots, cannons, nexus cannon. (done perfectly early game you would never lose a ling unless trapped by a FF or surrounded by probes) - Muta splitting vs storms and widow mines. - Spotting widow mines, pulling back before detonation. - Swarmhost burrow-> spawn locusts-> unburrow movements - easier.
On May 18 2013 05:30 CoR wrote: also rules say played is played ... both players accept when plöaying it you cant play and then you you lose say "wrong map" "wrong speed" or whatever, that would be redicilous if possible
That's why I said "full lawyer" . But yeah, I guess that's why they have to sign some papers after the match, so it is official that they agree with the result etc
There is no full lawyer. Life would lose even if he hired OJ's lawyers.
He completed the entire series, and let the entire group finish. he also let RO8 games finish. Absolutely nothing can be done. It sucks, but alot of people are bringing up illogical things they want to happen.
The only solution is that GOM needs to be tougher on themselves. But this mishap didn't affect the sereies, or the group. Your only deluding yourself if you think a single mishap in a single game was the cause of him losing the entire group, which is what many are insunating. Which nobody can prove at all. I mean shit, Life could have chosen a differnt all-in, such as a 7 roach rush or something, where he could possibly have had the advantage with having units that would have benefited from it and could have won, then sweeped the series because he is amazing. But it didn't happen unfortunately.
Its over. We have to move on.
What ridiculousness.
GOM is responsible for proper playing conditions, that's on their end of the deal, not the players. That includes proper game speed. If this was a frequent issue and it could be established that GOM were irresponsible game hosts the players would have every right to file formal complaints and possibly receive legal compensation.
Stop putting the responsibility on the players. This is GOM's fault.
We're NOT simply moving on. GOM is now obligated to double-check their routines in order to prevent this kind of issue in the future.
What is ridiculous about it. We are at the RO4 pretty much. What do you possibly think could happen at this point in time, even if Life went 'full lawyer'. Nothing but an apology, which I hope they give. I didnt blame the players, I blamed the admins originally. And blame everyone who noticed and didn't say anything (which may be quite a few people, even one or both of the players, we'll never know). Thats logical, not ridiculous, I blame all who are responsible.
This isn't a frequent issue. It's happened what, twice in the history of Starcraft 2? Stop over exaggerating, your calling me ridiculous huh?
I never said players couldn't file complaints. I clearly said, that its far to late for any action apart from an apology to happen, and for GOM to be better, which is what you said. You agree with me but yell unintelligible things? I never put the blame on them, although I include them in the group of people who may have noticed and possibly didn't say anything. i blamed the admin and the observers who didn't pay attention to the alert. I have stated numerous times that the fault lies on every single person ingame in obsver chat who missed that. I never blamed the players, although they may need some.
Dont move on then. I am a Life fan. I am, and i'm sure Life is as well. Have fun brooding over a small mishap that had absolutely no influence over the outcome of the group. So much anger, and you end with 'just double check', which I originally said in the post you quoted, lol.
Its a big dead. it suchs. We can't change it. Life can't change it. Hope he wins the next 5 GSL's in spite of the observers who never said anything
Life bet Parting he could beat him on a slower speed on any of the maps that come up. They agreed and the coaches agreed and GOM (game host, casters, etc.) agrees behind the scenes. They also agree if someone else makes a stink about it during the game, they'll just resume on the usual speed. An extra $20 grand on the line between the contestants.
Parting picks that map for the slower b/c it's bad for Protoss and figures it'll be a coinflip anyway. GOM slows it down only after the start because it's harder to notice. Life mindgames him, and does a mass ling rush on a map that usually sees a 2 base Protoss all-in. Parting wins because it isn't yet proven (but soon will be) that ling rushes aren't strong enough if a mothershipcore is out, GG. In GSTL GOM stages an "accidental" speed change that gets "noticed" to throw everybody not in the know (the other players) off the scent, but it backfires.
EPT
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