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I want to criticize some of the comparisons made in this thread.
I do not think it makes any sense to compare a casual or amateur player to a pro player. Its the 'job' of the pro player to be good at what he does but the rest of us folks will have other lines of work to do if we are not unemployed. Therefore a pro player will have tons and tons more practice then the average player.
In my opinion (effective)APM matters even at the lower levels of play because the difference can be even greater there as in the pro level. Whereas in a pro game, pro players can have a second or seconds of difference in their execution and this matters, lower players will have even greater differences and therefore difficulties.
For me Starcraft has 2 or three components. The strategic component: What do I build, when do I expand, where will I attack, generally "the decision making" as you may call it.
And the execution component or micro (in my opinion the often quoted makro is just a form of micro or you may call it base micro it is part of the execution aspect of the game), where you build your workers, build your army and execute the attack/defense whatever.
You can be the best at decision making if you are really behind in micro/execution and it would not matter.
Your opponent will have the bigger army, better economy and simply steamroll you by numbers or a perfect timing.
I think in lower levels the execution/micro component is even more important then some elaborate strategical play.
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On August 20 2013 03:35 StatixEx wrote:
really sorry to hear about the angry kaluro above, how old was he again, sounds like 10 yrs old. I dont believe you when you say you dont know how to scout it as every single coach stream ive seen and every single improve point i get told is "u dont scout enough" i had the mentality of just build more shit but that just doesnt do it, if ur a masters i can safely say ur not a very good one. how old are you again?
Enlighten me please on how any of my post was made in an angry manner?
Are you just too stubborn to acknowledge that metagaming and proper reaction is more of a 1600+ MMR thing, and that it's all just mechanics up to low/mid masters? And how does any of what I wrote, sound immature, or something which a 10 year old would write?
If you did even a minor bit of research you would have found thissssss. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371903 thread.
You would also have known I had a job at which I was gone from home from 7 AM till 6 PM, do strength training 3-5 times a week and maintain a fulltime relationship  ..Oh yeah I'm about to hit 25, in october.
You can watch my VODS @ www.twitch.tv/kaluroo and also acknowledge that I barely scout at all, if at all.
I know basic gas timings per match up, basic openers. Anything else is purely done through self-created tactics and not "I scout A so I have to do B".
Just for your sake, I'll paste my post once more, I'll allow you to dissect it and tell me exactly which part was angry or immature:
On August 19 2013 18:40 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 16:56 StatixEx wrote:
im 32 i dont know about you but i have a family and full time job so find it hard to keep up with the meta, you will see one thing and go oh hes doing that x build but then in comes some other stuff. it doesnt change that much that often but dicking around in the lower leagues not being able to read anything keeps you there. sometimes i believe id be better off in masters as everythings the way you see it on stream. Nah age has got no bearing as long as you have a physical ability to do it, if anything we dont get ladder anx as much as by now we are beginning to realise its only a game and it doesnt matter than we even or ever played it . . . i mean i dar you to brag ur a masters sc2 player in an interview or new setting of real life importance I have been masters for 6 seasons straight without having pretty much any insight on scouting intelligence. I play my own game, my own pace and am really aggressive at that. My opponents have to adapt to my pace and not the other way around. I don't know anything about metagames or what to scout ( Yeah, I know how to scout whether it's mech or bio, and whether protoss is going stargate or robo.. which anyone can do at 7:30), I just play my own game and keep the aggression and map control on, while practicing good mechanics. Saying you have to keep up with builds/metagame etc. to get anywhere is a lame excuse. Up to mid masters it does not make a single difference, as long as you play your own game and have good mechanics. Sorry to disappoint you but I have no idea how to scout 'so called builds', I scout once at 7:30 to see which buildings are up so I know which tech is up, but builds? no. Spire = muta, stargate = air, robo = colossus/immortals, more than one barracks = bio, more than one factory = mech, that is IT. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2240242/1/Kaluro/
Also anyone should be able to hit low masters through pure mechanics/macro, without any strategic insight.
You can refer to my vods @ www.twitch.tv/kaluroo for proof.. ^_^
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On August 20 2013 08:07 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 03:35 StatixEx wrote:
really sorry to hear about the angry kaluro above, how old was he again, sounds like 10 yrs old. I dont believe you when you say you dont know how to scout it as every single coach stream ive seen and every single improve point i get told is "u dont scout enough" i had the mentality of just build more shit but that just doesnt do it, if ur a masters i can safely say ur not a very good one. how old are you again? Enlighten me please on how any of my post was made in an angry manner? Are you just too stubborn to acknowledge that metagaming and proper reaction is more of a 1600+ MMR thing, and that it's all just mechanics up to low/mid masters? And how does any of what I wrote, sound immature, or something which a 10 year old would write? If you did even a minor bit of research you would have found thissssss. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371903 thread. You would also have known I had a job at which I was gone from home from 7 AM till 6 PM, do strength training 3-5 times a week and maintain a fulltime relationship ..Oh yeah I'm about to hit 25, in october. You can watch my VODS @ www.twitch.tv/kaluroo and also acknowledge that I barely scout at all, if at all. I know basic gas timings per match up, basic openers. Anything else is purely done through self-created tactics and not "I scout A so I have to do B". Just for your sake, I'll paste my post once more, I'll allow you to dissect it and tell me exactly which part was angry or immature: Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 18:40 kaluro wrote:On August 19 2013 16:56 StatixEx wrote:
im 32 i dont know about you but i have a family and full time job so find it hard to keep up with the meta, you will see one thing and go oh hes doing that x build but then in comes some other stuff. it doesnt change that much that often but dicking around in the lower leagues not being able to read anything keeps you there. sometimes i believe id be better off in masters as everythings the way you see it on stream. Nah age has got no bearing as long as you have a physical ability to do it, if anything we dont get ladder anx as much as by now we are beginning to realise its only a game and it doesnt matter than we even or ever played it . . . i mean i dar you to brag ur a masters sc2 player in an interview or new setting of real life importance I have been masters for 6 seasons straight without having pretty much any insight on scouting intelligence. I play my own game, my own pace and am really aggressive at that. My opponents have to adapt to my pace and not the other way around. I don't know anything about metagames or what to scout ( Yeah, I know how to scout whether it's mech or bio, and whether protoss is going stargate or robo.. which anyone can do at 7:30), I just play my own game and keep the aggression and map control on, while practicing good mechanics. Saying you have to keep up with builds/metagame etc. to get anywhere is a lame excuse. Up to mid masters it does not make a single difference, as long as you play your own game and have good mechanics. Sorry to disappoint you but I have no idea how to scout 'so called builds', I scout once at 7:30 to see which buildings are up so I know which tech is up, but builds? no. Spire = muta, stargate = air, robo = colossus/immortals, more than one barracks = bio, more than one factory = mech, that is IT. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2240242/1/Kaluro/ Also anyone should be able to hit low masters through pure mechanics/macro, without any strategic insight. You can refer to my vods @ www.twitch.tv/kaluroo for proof.. ^_^
I agree. When I played, I got to masters (peaked at rank 1, even played some GM people) and all I did was copy build orders I saw from day9 and from streams.
Remembering my play now, I wasn't even really thinking while playing, my mechanics just allowed me to win most games. I don't really want this to sound like bragging, I haven't played in over a year and I'm sure the level of play is much better now and this might not be possible, but I was really dumb about the game and managed to get to masters just with mechanics, 2 basing and things I saw other people do.
I forced my opponents to play a game of mechanics with me and so I managed to win without any conscious strategic thinking basically. 2 cents
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I think age does play a role in the later stages
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Efficiency is much more important than speed, you only need around 100 eAPM to do well, so if you can't play faster, work on taking out unnecessary actions.
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If you're stuck in Diamond, it's not because of slow hands.
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I have horrible micro, and I'm old by progamer standards (23), but I still made highish masters playing random solely on the back of good macro and multitasking.
You don't need super gosu micro to win even at high masters, and micro is usually what gives you a lot of APM. I find screens per minute to be a much better indicator of how fast you are; as long as I'm not about to play ghosts vs. templars or fight a 200/200 laser war, I spread a bit, stim/use abilities if necessary, A-move and go back to macro or harassment.
It's simply better to use my attention and increase my army count by 30% through macro and harassment management, than watch the battle microing my heart out preserving 10% of my army count. The latter gives you more APM in the end, but it just doesn't matter if you don't find a second army at your rally point after an engagement.
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I'll chime in again for people debating age with just this.
Age will 100% make it harder to go from someone who hasn't played or has played little RTS to get really good at the game.
Not because you'd be to slow, not because you couldn't learn. It will because your time is much more likely to be limited, your real life commitments are much more likely to make you less motivated, and there is a higher possibility of physical impediments making it difficult.
If somehow at say age 30 someone was able to be in good health, dedicate hours and hours to the game, keep themselves motivated, they could likely achieve some high level of play. However, at age 30 that'd be oh so difficult as there is a huge risk of failure resulting in your life situation being extremely adversely effected.
All that vs anyone under age 18 where you have virtually no backlash should you fail to achieve a high level of play.
The only thing that being older say 25+ won't stop you from doing is maintaing a high level of play if you already achieved it at a younger age. This is why you see 30+ year old main stream pro sports players. They have already achieved a high level of play and all they have to do is maintain it the best they can.
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On August 20 2013 13:45 Nerski wrote:
I'll chime in again for people debating age with just this.
Age will 100% make it harder to go from someone who hasn't played or has played little RTS to get really good at the game.
Not because you'd be to slow, not because you couldn't learn. It will because your time is much more likely to be limited, your real life commitments are much more likely to make you less motivated, and there is a higher possibility of physical impediments making it difficult.
If somehow at say age 30 someone was able to be in good health, dedicate hours and hours to the game, keep themselves motivated, they could likely achieve some high level of play. However, at age 30 that'd be oh so difficult as there is a huge risk of failure resulting in your life situation being extremely adversely effected.
All that vs anyone under age 18 where you have virtually no backlash should you fail to achieve a high level of play.
The only thing that being older say 25+ won't stop you from doing is maintaing a high level of play if you already achieved it at a younger age. This is why you see 30+ year old main stream pro sports players. They have already achieved a high level of play and all they have to do is maintain it the best they can.
This why most leagues (ie basketball, football) are grouped by age, a married biz owner working 50+ hours has no desire to play with an 18 yro college drop out. If the under 25 posters disagree I can post a few links to rec leagues that have age requirements. SC2 is a e-sport, not a game, and it should be treated as a sport and not a game which is how most posters are viewing it as.
Let me say it one more time SC2 is a sport not a game. Dead Space 3 is a game if you are curious.
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Certainly not at the amateur level. I would worry about age at the point where you're thinking of making this a career, which it doesn't sound like applies to you. I imagine that any age person can play at a high-masters level with enough focus and dedication.
As many other posters have said, it is available-time not age that is the primary limiting factor. The two just happen to correspond.
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Russian Federation7 Posts
I don't think that "getting slower trough age" is hindering your mechanics a lot. If we we simplify APM a lot it's nothing more than just hitting keys rapidly, doing so is just muscle memory and your keyboard and the key layout in SCII (depending on which one you use) isn't that big. If age would hinder you from typing fast most secretaries would have to quit their job in their 30ies which is just totally stupid. A secretary on average has to type around 65 words per minute (wpm), assuming each word has 5 letters on average and leaving out blank spaces and punctuation we will have 65*5=325 key-strokes per minute, that's 325 APM. Of course this calculation is highly simplified and typing actual words is different than executing different actions in reaction to what is happening in the game.
I think the real problem with getting older is, that your reaction time decreases. You can still hit 300+ APM but you just are not able to react properly to the stuff that is happening on your screen. That can be countered with good game knowledge and safe play I think but only to a certain extend.
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It's simpler than the OP thinks it is. Depending on how hardcore you've gone on gaming/whatever, physical stuff wouldn't change due to age unless there were a lot of factors affecting your health (poor nutrition, etc). Mostly, it'd be a problem with straining yourself too often and/or have weaker wrists or sluggish joints due to how long you've been playing games with high apm/movement requirements.
Something a ton of gamers overlook is posture and positioning when playing anything. I hold an xbox 360 controller different than anyone I know and cannot hold a PS3 controller at all because it's grip is bad for me. I've got large hands with a wide palm that needs to be filled in order to hold a controller perfectly, otherwise it slips. PS3 controller layouts are the worst for me and their size is terrible.
Another good, personal example would be Guitar Hero. Not sure how many people have/are able to play on the Expert difficulty for any song, but it's very strenuous movement of your wrist and fingers on your left hand. The controllers for that and Rock Band aren't ergonomic in the slightest way, so my hand slips yet again and I can get awkward handling from it which magnifies any straining. I've actually played a set of maybe 4-6 really hard songs on Rock Band before and caused my left hand to have sharp shooting pains and numbness from it, even permanent damage from it likely. I also have bad genetics, so my joints, knees, ankles and wrists are naturally worse than most others (mother has R.A., CTS problems from accounting).
Anyway, there's a lot of contributing factors and I don't think age has anything to do with it. Length of time you've spent in awkward positioning of your hands and general usage of your fingers/wrists at a higher level than normal is way more important. That's why 'age' is considered a big deal in esports, because they've already spent x years straining themselves. Also would probably relate to the korean scene and their military service requirements, and it just transcended to the western world via slang terms and bullshit talk.
My recommendation is to work on your hotkey setup to get what works best for you, get a good chair, don't slump down or lean forward when you play, get a better desk for your posture and practice playing more often. You play nowhere near as much as a pro or nolifer, so you cannot expect to get better over time more quickly than you are currently without extra effort. Also, some people just have better performance in games than others. It doesn't help that you've got a billion other things factoring into your rank other than your apm or mechanics. You even said it yourself, you only play 1 freakin' build order, man!
Edit: as a response to the post above me, reaction time can be sort of 'fine-tuned' with brain exercise, a.k.a. pushing yourself beyond what you normally do. Simply playing more will help that, we're not talking about people in their 50s and 60s here.
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EPT
