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On April 19 2013 07:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 07:05 Rossie wrote:
Terrible OP. If you have no more claim to fame than being a mid-masters Protoss, it's not a good idea to assume people will be happy to wade through a whole essay written by you.
I wouldn't have to say this if it weren't for the fact that a much more lucid discussion thread started by me on a similar topic was closed just a while ago. And I was taken to task for not putting comparable "effort" into my post, i.e. not initiating a thread marked [D] for discussion with an OP that acts as a barrier to discussion.
It seems the forum is run by morons with a supplementary, hermaphroditic clittoris that's sensitive only to long-winded and meandering posts strewn with big fuck-off images whose value in humour isn't sufficient to pay for the revolutions of the scroll wheel required by them. ..... ....... .......... ............. ?????????????? Can you please, um, elucidate your point more clearly?
I think bruised ego just needs to lash out.
From a spectator's point of view, it's rare that I even bother to watch Protoss matches anymore. It's effectively a two race game for me. The inability to trade cost effectively in anything but a deathball makes for really shitty matches. TvZ, while still a balancing act has so much more potential as a matchup. All one has to do is listen to the casters. In TvZ, it's action all over the place. In PvT, it's "oh look, that proxy Oracle got 15 SCVs, I think it's really hard to come back from that", or "turret's down, I don't think this harass is really going to do anything".
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Im gonna help this thread going cause it deserves to be seen and blizzard needs to realise the problems. I would ofcourse be a fool to think that this would ever changed tho. The race needs a total change which is never ever gonna happend.
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On April 19 2013 06:17 Mistakes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On April 19 2013 06:03 baldgye wrote:On April 19 2013 05:57 Klogon wrote:
On the brightside of all of this... at least it gives something Blizzard to work on for LotV if they choose to do so. Maybe LotV can be SC2's BW  The TL hipsters will never let that happen. Soon, not even BW will be BW. It will be all about pre-BroodWar
Personally, I think Starcraft was ruined when Drones couldn't fly anymore. We fought for it. After many months, some brave soul shift-click Extractor-canceled at the perfect time and found a way to float a Drone. He showed that RTSs could be rewarding and great again, not Roach Marauder Forcefields Deathball Rocks. They fixed that glitch to bury the truth.
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On April 19 2013 07:33 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 06:17 Mistakes wrote:On April 19 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On April 19 2013 06:03 baldgye wrote:On April 19 2013 05:57 Klogon wrote:
On the brightside of all of this... at least it gives something Blizzard to work on for LotV if they choose to do so. Maybe LotV can be SC2's BW The TL hipsters will never let that happen. Soon, not even BW will be BW. It will be all about pre-BroodWar Personally, I think Starcraft was ruined when Drones couldn't fly anymore. We fought for it. After many months, some brave soul shift-click Extractor-canceled at the perfect time and found a way to float a Drone. He showed that RTSs could be rewarding and great again, not Roach Marauder Forcefields Deathball Rocks. They fixed that glitch to bury the truth.
Zergs hail to  Shark
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On April 19 2013 07:24 hummingbird23 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 07:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 19 2013 07:05 Rossie wrote:
Terrible OP. If you have no more claim to fame than being a mid-masters Protoss, it's not a good idea to assume people will be happy to wade through a whole essay written by you.
I wouldn't have to say this if it weren't for the fact that a much more lucid discussion thread started by me on a similar topic was closed just a while ago. And I was taken to task for not putting comparable "effort" into my post, i.e. not initiating a thread marked [D] for discussion with an OP that acts as a barrier to discussion.
It seems the forum is run by morons with a supplementary, hermaphroditic clittoris that's sensitive only to long-winded and meandering posts strewn with big fuck-off images whose value in humour isn't sufficient to pay for the revolutions of the scroll wheel required by them. ..... ....... .......... ............. ?????????????? Can you please, um, elucidate your point more clearly? I think bruised ego just needs to lash out. From a spectator's point of view, it's rare that I even bother to watch Protoss matches anymore. It's effectively a two race game for me. The inability to trade cost effectively in anything but a deathball makes for really shitty matches. TvZ, while still a balancing act has so much more potential as a matchup. All one has to do is listen to the casters. In TvZ, it's action all over the place. In PvT, it's "oh look, that proxy Oracle got 15 SCVs, I think it's really hard to come back from that", or "turret's down, I don't think this harass is really going to do anything".
PvT is actually my FAVORITE matchup right now. It feels like reanimator vs BUG in legacy where the Terran player does what he can to protect his Delver before the protoss gets a swing with Griselbrand. Just flies all over the protoss bases being swatted and hunted like rebel scum outrunning imperial forces--its exciting!
PvZ... Well it's fun for about 10-15 minutes....
ZvZ is fun for about 5 minutes, then its boring from 5-15 minutes, then suddenly its like watching wack-em-sock-em robots wailing away at each other as they snipe one each other's bases
TvT was more fun in WoL--it was my fave matchup until blueflame got nerfed.
Blueflame, Banes, Widowmines, etc... those insta splash units that just 180 fights are always so fun to watch for me. Sometimes you watch life run face first into mine fields and nothing happens and sometimes you watch fantasy have an even fight at 30-100 supply difference because of well placed mine traps. Player execution is SOOO fun.
idk if we can ever bring back the TvT or TvZ of BW though...
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On April 19 2013 07:33 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 06:17 Mistakes wrote:On April 19 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On April 19 2013 06:03 baldgye wrote:On April 19 2013 05:57 Klogon wrote:
On the brightside of all of this... at least it gives something Blizzard to work on for LotV if they choose to do so. Maybe LotV can be SC2's BW The TL hipsters will never let that happen. Soon, not even BW will be BW. It will be all about pre-BroodWar Personally, I think Starcraft was ruined when Drones couldn't fly anymore. We fought for it. After many months, some brave soul shift-click Extractor-canceled at the perfect time and found a way to float a Drone. He showed that RTSs could be rewarding and great again, not Roach Marauder Forcefields Deathball Rocks. They fixed that glitch to bury the truth.
Dude, it was ruined the moment you couldn't move your CC beside the mineral patch.
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That community made mod has some godly protoss ideas. Stalker range upgrade, stalker doing normal 14 dmg, an actual choice between warpgate and gateway tech and tons more. I'd kill for making protoss the way it is in that mod, would up the funfactor by 10x.
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Isn't the Hydra movement speed the exact sort of change you guys are talking about? Blizzard had this grand vision of Zerg creep being this terrifying thing that no Terran or Protoss would ever want to fight on, and one of the things that would make creep terrifying is that the dreaded hydralisk would live there. But after hearing years of complaints about hydras being too slow, Blizzard finally caved and turned hydras back into a completely standard unit.
And even though this hydralisk change looks to be a positive one, I still wish Blizzard had fixed things in a more interesting way. By making the hydralisk less dependent on creep, they've lessened the usefulness of creep overall. I would have preferred to see Blizzard go in the other direction, perhaps making hydras even stronger fighters than they are now, while making them even slower off creep. It's a small thing in this case, but Blizzard missed the opportunity to make creep an even more defining aspect of the Zerg race.
I feel like most of the proposed changes to warp gate would hurt the game in the same way. Sure you could eliminate warp gates and buff gateway units to the point where they can be wielded like a standard army, but you'd be eliminating one of the things that sets Protoss apart from the other races, and one of the things that sets StarCraft 2 apart from other RTS games. It might even fix some problems in the short term by returning to "tried and true" RTS design, but it's the lazy way out. It's the deviations from "tried and true" RTS design that make SC2 interesting in the first place.
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On April 19 2013 09:02 archwaykitten wrote:
Isn't the Hydra movement speed the exact sort of change you guys are talking about? Blizzard had this grand vision of Zerg creep being this terrifying thing that no Terran or Protoss would ever want to fight on, and one of the things that would make creep terrifying is that the dreaded hydralisk would live there. But after hearing years of complaints about hydras being too slow, Blizzard finally caved and turned hydras back into a completely standard unit.
And even though this hydralisk change looks to be a positive one, I still wish Blizzard had fixed things in a more interesting way. By making the hydralisk less dependent on creep, they've lessened the usefulness of creep overall. I would have preferred to see Blizzard go in the other direction, perhaps making hydras even stronger fighters than they are now, while making them even slower off creep. It's a small thing in this case, but Blizzard missed the opportunity to make creep an even more defining aspect of the Zerg race.
I feel like most of the proposed changes to warp gate would hurt the game in the same way. Sure you could eliminate warp gates and buff gateway units to the point where they can be wielded like a standard army, but you'd be eliminating one of the things that sets Protoss apart from the other races, and one of the things that sets StarCraft 2 apart from other RTS games. It might even fix some problems in the short term by returning to "tried and true" RTS design, but it's the lazy way out. It's the deviations from "tried and true" RTS design that make SC2 interesting in the first place.
In response to your last paragraph, that's part of why I think it's always better to nerf than buff. WG and the sentry are cool ideas, it's just kind of saddening that they're necessary because of the brute force of the other races.
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On April 19 2013 09:02 archwaykitten wrote:
Isn't the Hydra movement speed the exact sort of change you guys are talking about? Blizzard had this grand vision of Zerg creep being this terrifying thing that no Terran or Protoss would ever want to fight on, and one of the things that would make creep terrifying is that the dreaded hydralisk would live there. But after hearing years of complaints about hydras being too slow, Blizzard finally caved and turned hydras back into a completely standard unit.
And even though this hydralisk change looks to be a positive one, I still wish Blizzard had fixed things in a more interesting way. By making the hydralisk less dependent on creep, they've lessened the usefulness of creep overall. I would have preferred to see Blizzard go in the other direction, perhaps making hydras even stronger fighters than they are now, while making them even slower off creep. It's a small thing in this case, but Blizzard missed the opportunity to make creep an even more defining aspect of the Zerg race.
I feel like most of the proposed changes to warp gate would hurt the game in the same way. Sure you could eliminate warp gates and buff gateway units to the point where they can be wielded like a standard army, but you'd be eliminating one of the things that sets Protoss apart from the other races, and one of the things that sets StarCraft 2 apart from other RTS games. It might even fix some problems in the short term by returning to "tried and true" RTS design, but it's the lazy way out. It's the deviations from "tried and true" RTS design that make SC2 interesting in the first place.
You're joking right? Hydras without the speed upgrade are an enormous design mistake. It's probably the only unit between both games that is so profoundly cost ineffective, and likely to put you on an inescapable path to losing.
Until I can instantly spawn creep wherever I want without spending gas or sacrificing overlords, creep isn't as good as you want it to be - and it doesn't need to be. Zerg isn't really about creep, just like protoss isn't really about warpgates. Warpgates are a different kind of flaw - instead of saying "god forbid you ever make me, because you will lose as a result", they say "you have this fun gimmick but in order to make it fair your race is pigeonholed into playing in a braindead way sometimes"
Anyway, here's my idea for Legacy of the Void: buff gateways so that both gateways and warpgates are valid choices during the game. The player can trade versatility (via warping in anywhere) for something else (like maybe gateways get a bigger bonus from chrono boost). Let the players decide how much they want warpgates to define their play in each game.
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On April 19 2013 07:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 06:49 Sabu113 wrote:On April 19 2013 06:20 Plansix wrote:On April 19 2013 06:17 Mistakes wrote:On April 19 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On April 19 2013 06:03 baldgye wrote:On April 19 2013 05:57 Klogon wrote:
On the brightside of all of this... at least it gives something Blizzard to work on for LotV if they choose to do so. Maybe LotV can be SC2's BW The TL hipsters will never let that happen. Soon, not even BW will be BW. It will be all about pre-BroodWar When the micro was real and people cared about macro. Not this new, imitation macro and micro with their hightech mechanical keyboards and mice. Back in the day when we had to clean our mice with q tips and punch those keys till it hurt on our shitty cell keyboards. Back when it was real man, real RTS. Lets be fair here. BW is still unquestionably the richer experience. 2011, the days of the 1/1/1 and the year of Broodlord infestor, JD's two muta group control vs idra's 40pack, hots zvz v BW zvz (See Zero on Matchpoint <3). I think it's fair to say that a lot of the really attractive and awesome aspects about protoss that existed in BW didn't translate over to SC2. A lot of what BGX talks about in terms of adrenaline and harass play isn't there no matter how hard they try to force it to exist with cheap gimmicks like medivac boost. Gut test, compare pimpest plays between bw and sc2. Sure there's some degree of nostalgia but don't knock a game that provided a more balanced, richer and interesting experience through 07-09 than SC2 has to date. Sure it can change but- man I just want that excitement back! Kinda silly to call people who like Shakespeare and Faulkner hipsters :p No shame in paying proper respect to a classic. + Show Spoiler + WoL ZvZ was definitely much better than BW ZvZ, and I definitely enjoyed WoL PvP about as much as I enjoyed BW ZvZ But Marines Splits does not outmatch lurker traps and minefields are definitely more fun to watch than blink medivac snipes
Idk.... To be fair I have the image of the Last GSL finals in my head and maybe too much saturation over the past months but I much preferred ZvZ when it was a micro knife fight (admittedly, I like pvp blink fights too) as opposed to a more macro-focused affair. Sure there were build orders that could be painful... but then you had opportunities for brilliance. Jaedong is Jaedong because he had those scenarios to completely upset preconceptions. I do have bias towards micro fights slightly over management styles as a rule so fair enough.
Lurker traps x_X I feel like the tension when we saw them was a bit more than when we see a nicely placed baneling mine. I feel like they also did a nice job of letting zerg put something down that told the opponent (If you want this base you're gonna have to invest time/troops in it) ala Planetary fortress to a degree.
Ah and I can't forget Hwasin's 3 marine rotation that was disgusting. <3 (Only saw the pimpest play never the game)
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I don't think Bliz will ever buff Warp Gates. It's how they view Toss in SC2. It is no illusion to most Toss players how retarded Warp Gate units can get in a game, especially how Terrans and Zergs have gotten in HotS. They will have to re-do majority of Toss Gateway units if they do something to Warp.
I have always had an idea of, buffing the Warp Gate units, but allow Toss to warp in, only a certain amount of units. Lets say, 1 Warp Gate. You can warp in, 3 units from it in 3 minutes. So technically you build normally like you would in BW, but also be able to warp units in, a certain amount in a certain amount of time. Maybe in that sense, they can buff the Warp Gate units without really killing Toss gateway stuff.
Right now you see Toss struggling a lot, because of how obvious Stargates have become, in order to balance build orders and not always go Stargate, you still do the normal WoL thing. And against Terran with Mines/Ghost/Speed Medivacs, it just isn't doable against a great Terran. You have to do hell of a lot with Stargate to get a lead to crush with an normal Gateway composition. Zerg match up is still more or less the same I think. Aside from the Stargate, you won't always do it, Zergs will expect a Stargate opening more often then not.
But it's just me... I hope Blizz figures out something because seeing the same thing from Toss in HotS still is a bit sad. Feels like you have to go Stargate, but at the same time you cannot always go Stargate.
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On April 19 2013 12:45 Seraphic wrote:
I don't think Bliz will ever buff Warp Gates. It's how they view Toss in SC2. It is no illusion to most Toss players how retarded Warp Gate units can get in a game, especially how Terrans and Zergs have gotten in HotS. They will have to re-do majority of Toss Gateway units if they do something to Warp.
I have always had an idea of, buffing the Warp Gate units, but allow Toss to warp in, only a certain amount of units. Lets say, 1 Warp Gate. You can warp in, 3 units from it in 3 minutes. So technically you build normally like you would in BW, but also be able to warp units in, a certain amount in a certain amount of time. Maybe in that sense, they can buff the Warp Gate units without really killing Toss gateway stuff.
Right now you see Toss struggling a lot, because of how obvious Stargates have become, in order to balance build orders and not always go Stargate, you still do the normal WoL thing. And against Terran with Mines/Ghost/Speed Medivacs, it just isn't doable against a great Terran. You have to do hell of a lot with Stargate to get a lead to crush with an normal Gateway composition. Zerg match up is still more or less the same I think. Aside from the Stargate, you won't always do it, Zergs will expect a Stargate opening more often then not.
But it's just me... I hope Blizz figures out something because seeing the same thing from Toss in HotS still is a bit sad. Feels like you have to go Stargate, but at the same time you cannot always go Stargate.
This stargate talk is exactly why I stopped playing protoss after playing it the entire time for WoL.
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Northern Ireland23721 Posts
On April 19 2013 08:26 unkkz wrote:
That community made mod has some godly protoss ideas. Stalker range upgrade, stalker doing normal 14 dmg, an actual choice between warpgate and gateway tech and tons more. I'd kill for making protoss the way it is in that mod, would up the funfactor by 10x.
There have been cool ideas. Blizzard seem content to have Protoss be gimmicky and impossible to play dynamically though
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I think the most worrying thing about Protoss (as a protoss player) is the way that that Blizzard tooled them in WoL. If you look how Protoss evolved from beta to the end of WoL it was horrible and PvZ became either; the protoss all in's off two base, or the zerg wins... and Blizzard seemed to be pretty happy about that... the most galling thing I think I've ever seen was when TL interviewed Dustin Browder and asking him how they felt about late game PvZ/ZvP and how nural on a mother-ship basically ment there was no way for the protoss to ever come back, and his response was something along the lines off, well I've never seen that before...
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On April 19 2013 18:14 baldgye wrote:
it was horrible and PvZ became either the protoss all in's off two base, or the zerg wins...
That's how it was for Terran in PvT for all of WoL; your point falls apart unfortunately when you're being hypocritical.
On April 19 2013 18:14 baldgye wrote:interviewed Dustin Browder and asking him how they felt about late game PvZ/ZvP and how nural on a mother-ship basically ment there was no way for the protoss to ever come back, and his response was something along the lines off, well I've never seen that before...
I do remember this though. This was truly sad.
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When was PvT ever a 2 base all in or die situation?
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On April 19 2013 18:56 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 18:14 baldgye wrote:
it was horrible and PvZ became either the protoss all in's off two base, or the zerg wins... That's how it was for Terran in PvT for all of WoL; your point falls apart unfortunately when you're being hypocritical.
...and how am I being hypocritical exactly?
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What's particularly frustrating is that Protoss balance is a serious long standing issue but it doesn't get coverage on the high profile shows like SotG which seem to be one of the best ways to reach the devs. I attribute this to Protoss always having more success in the foreign scene than KR due to the lower skill base not butting against the low Protoss skill ceiling as hard.
Artosis is one of the most insightful people in the scene and currently represents Protoss on SotG, but the main point he raises in balance discussions is Void Rays needing a nerf, even as he casts the definitive SC2 league where Protoss are struggling and underreprested as they have been for the majority of GSL seasons.
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Ideas I would like to see considered:
-Replace Guardian Shield with a shield-battery like spell, either on the Sentry or another unit. Rather than a set and forget passive buff have a Transfusion like ability this is worse than Guardian Shield without good micro but can scale to be better at it in the hands of someone with excellent control. Protoss needs these kind of abilities that can scale with a players skill and allow small numbers of Protoss units to beat small numbers of other early game units if the Protoss player has the better control.
-Replace Zealot Charge with BW zealot speed. This would give Protoss a mobile and disposable unit which can be used to hit and fade like the Zergling and Marine.
-Remove ability to warp in on Pylons outside of a control range of a Nexus. This would restrict battlefield warp ins to Warp Prisms, requring another unit to be microed and removing the possibility of early game instant reinforced warpgate all ins, which could clear the way for gateway unit buffs.
-Give a proper BW style recall (not the current town portal) to a Protoss unit that isn't slow and can be built in numbers greater than one. Recall harass was one of the most exciting parts of BW PvT but had to be used skillfully or just ended up being a donation of units that opened the way for a Terran push.
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EPT
