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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On April 20 2013 18:41 ThaReckoning wrote: How would you proxy gate or cannon rush someone who can scout around their base, and drop one cannon to stop it? I was thinking more in PvZ and PvT.... | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On April 20 2013 01:10 Qwyn wrote: ... You know that a hatch can only have 19 larva max, right? Any inject after 19 larva returns nothing. Protoss can stockpile plenty of things. They can stockpile gates and other production buildings. They can stockpile resources. Both of these are valuable commodities. In fact, I am reminded of PvT against a terran super-army, where that is exactly what you want to do. Don't get me wrong, I would love having 30 larva on one hatchery  . What he meant and what you mean is different. Your idea applies to everything starcraft, his idea says that a protoss don't lose anything from having 6 gateways, when in fact he could live with 4 gateways and have stronger economy. Warpgate operates identically as gateway, when talk about economy, and by extension it operates identically as barracks, or as hatch. Eggs are more economically neutral than buildings. What irked me is that: The true protoss master combines his gamesense and his scouting and then he decides to produce more or less units. Which makes no sense, if protoss scouts, he does not build uneccesery gateways, when zerg scouts he does not build uncessecery units etc. This contradiction of his post made me believe that he believes that protoss warpgate tech allows protoss to stockpile "warps" the same way inject does to larvae. Thats why i called out his elementary knowledge. Because in reality you operate on warpgates in similar fashion the same you would operate with gateways without warp tech. The idea behind production facility is exatcly the same. Unlike zerg If what he meant is "Protoss makes similar decision making to Zerg in regards of macro as a whole" i would agree, but thats exactly the same for all races in SC1/SC2. And his post was worded in a way that didn't mean that. | ||
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ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
I don't think it'd be an issue, those strategies are already bad vs zerg and terran. | ||
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Reborn58
United States238 Posts
I don't think it'd be an issue, those strategies are already bad vs zerg and terran. Really a proxy zealot rush with cannon block wouldn't be OP as fuck against zerg??? you could deny expands for days... | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
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ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
On April 21 2013 03:47 Reborn58 wrote: Really a proxy zealot rush with cannon block wouldn't be OP as fuck against zerg??? you could deny expands for days... If they 14 pool and scout, it wouldn't be an issue at all | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On April 20 2013 17:01 ThaReckoning wrote: Yeah, you could never be cannon rushed or proxy gated at all, it'd be great. Shield Battery after gateway please. Kk thx. Actually, you know what would be really cool? A high tech energy battery, like after templar archives. It builds energy slowly, but can transfer it's own energy to sentries, high templar, mothership core, oracles etc. The lateness of the tech would make it significantly less overpowered, but would allow for protoss to play from behind a bit better to compensate for the absolute lack of clutch units that can force a comeback. It'd still be subject to EMP's like orbitals or nexii are, and given that it would build energy at the same rate as anything else, it wouldn't be like having infinite energy. Actually, it would provide energy at a lower rate than evolution chambers and vipers. The fact that this is even an idea at all is indicative of the design flaws of toss: like how expensive their army is but how unsplittable it is, therefore limiting plays to come back from behind. WTB reaver drops. | ||
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highsis
259 Posts
For a side note, when I play obs I rarely see good protosses. It's usually Terran > Zerg > Protoss at the top. I've played over 100 matches in obs and I've never dropped a game vs toss, let alone not seeing them often. | ||
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ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
On April 22 2013 03:25 highsis wrote: Agreed, and I'm a Terran top master player occasionally matched with GMs. For a side note, when I play obs I rarely see good protosses. It's usually Terran > Zerg > Protoss at the top. I've played over 100 matches in obs and I've never dropped a game vs toss, let alone not seeing them often. I have my days where I hate it, and I have my days where I love it. Lately I've been thinking of going to t or z, though. | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On April 22 2013 03:51 ThaReckoning wrote: I have my days where I hate it, and I have my days where I love it. Lately I've been thinking of going to t or z, though. Oh now I'm pretty much done with Starcraft, however i did switch from P to T and lemme tell you, get ready to : 1. Love it but 2. Realize your skill is lower than you thought. I'm not kidding when I say a mid master Protoss has the mechanics of a high diamond Terran player. In the higher leagues however, I do believe Protoss (at least in WoL) have less choices and less ways of truly experimenting with their race, therefore they are not "OP". In Diamond-Master though, as a Terran you'll see how frustrating it is to lose to MUCH less skilled protoss players. The game is yours to win or lose though.. the game is a challenge for you, not for the opponent who could simply be a bot and it wouldn't change much. | ||
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Firesilver
United Kingdom1190 Posts
On April 22 2013 17:34 Patate wrote: Oh now I'm pretty much done with Starcraft, however i did switch from P to T and lemme tell you, get ready to : 1. Love it but 2. Realize your skill is lower than you thought. I'm not kidding when I say a mid master Protoss has the mechanics of a high diamond Terran player. In the higher leagues however, I do believe Protoss (at least in WoL) have less choices and less ways of truly experimenting with their race, therefore they are not "OP". In Diamond-Master though, as a Terran you'll see how frustrating it is to lose to MUCH less skilled protoss players. The game is yours to win or lose though.. the game is a challenge for you, not for the opponent who could simply be a bot and it wouldn't change much. As someone who has recently switched from P to T, this is so true. | ||
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Reborn58
United States238 Posts
On April 22 2013 17:57 Firesilver wrote: As someone who has recently switched from P to T, this is so true. Don't the two of you think that maybe, just maybe, it's because you played Toss for ~3 years and have "recently" switched to Terran? There is a learning curve, especially after playing the game one way for years and switching to a completely new one... | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On April 22 2013 17:34 Patate wrote: Oh now I'm pretty much done with Starcraft, however i did switch from P to T and lemme tell you, get ready to : 1. Love it but 2. Realize your skill is lower than you thought. I'm not kidding when I say a mid master Protoss has the mechanics of a high diamond Terran player. In the higher leagues however, I do believe Protoss (at least in WoL) have less choices and less ways of truly experimenting with their race, therefore they are not "OP". In Diamond-Master though, as a Terran you'll see how frustrating it is to lose to MUCH less skilled protoss players. The game is yours to win or lose though.. the game is a challenge for you, not for the opponent who could simply be a bot and it wouldn't change much. As a random player, I've noticed that I win about 50% with all three races. If what you are saying was true, I would win much much less with terran. I have trouble matchups with all of the races (TvT, ZvT, PvZ) and strong matchups (TvP, PvT, ZvZ), but I win pretty equally with all races. I'm low diamond, and I'm low diamond for all three races. | ||
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crappen
Norway1546 Posts
On April 22 2013 17:57 Firesilver wrote: As someone who has recently switched from P to T, this is so true. And this is also the reason I hesitate in switching to Terran. A deathball of protoss can just steamroll you, as I did versus a terran recently, who was freaking maxed while I was at like 140 (clearly I suck at macro compared). Storm, chargelot and 2 collos (for him to waste a few food on vikings), and it was just funny to see how melted he was. Damn. It seems so stressing for a terran to kite and dodge all game long, and dont get me started on the drops they kind of have to do. And if they dont do this, you simply lose to the deathball. Also, TvT? Is it fun or does these game take like 30minutes+++ all the time with tanks everywhere? PvP is atleast quickly over, brutal and fast, which I dont mind. | ||
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askmc70
United States722 Posts
On April 22 2013 17:34 Patate wrote: Oh now I'm pretty much done with Starcraft, however i did switch from P to T and lemme tell you, get ready to : 1. Love it but 2. Realize your skill is lower than you thought. I'm not kidding when I say a mid master Protoss has the mechanics of a high diamond Terran player. In the higher leagues however, I do believe Protoss (at least in WoL) have less choices and less ways of truly experimenting with their race, therefore they are not "OP". In Diamond-Master though, as a Terran you'll see how frustrating it is to lose to MUCH less skilled protoss players. The game is yours to win or lose though.. the game is a challenge for you, not for the opponent who could simply be a bot and it wouldn't change much. the game is not all dependant on mechanics, if you're gonna whine about that and not take into consideration on why you really lost, then go lose more. | ||
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askmc70
United States722 Posts
On April 22 2013 18:55 crappen wrote: And this is also the reason I hesitate in switching to Terran. A deathball of protoss can just steamroll you, as I did versus a terran recently, who was freaking maxed while I was at like 140 (clearly I suck at macro compared). Storm, chargelot and 2 collos (for him to waste a few food on vikings), and it was just funny to see how melted he was. Damn. It seems so stressing for a terran to kite and dodge all game long, and dont get me started on the drops they kind of have to do. And if they dont do this, you simply lose to the deathball. Also, TvT? Is it fun or does these game take like 30minutes+++ all the time with tanks everywhere? PvP is atleast quickly over, brutal and fast, which I dont mind. a terran deathball with 3-3 and ghosts is actually far more scarier than a protoss deathball | ||
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unkkz
Norway2196 Posts
On April 22 2013 18:55 crappen wrote: And this is also the reason I hesitate in switching to Terran. A deathball of protoss can just steamroll you, as I did versus a terran recently, who was freaking maxed while I was at like 140 (clearly I suck at macro compared). Storm, chargelot and 2 collos (for him to waste a few food on vikings), and it was just funny to see how melted he was. Damn. It seems so stressing for a terran to kite and dodge all game long, and dont get me started on the drops they kind of have to do. And if they dont do this, you simply lose to the deathball. Also, TvT? Is it fun or does these game take like 30minutes+++ all the time with tanks everywhere? PvP is atleast quickly over, brutal and fast, which I dont mind. Uhm if you beat a maxed out terran army with 140ish supply yourself you must have been way ahead on the upgrades, atleast 1 weap 1 armor ahead. Or he chose the worst damn engagement possible while having too many marines. Seriously i'd even like to see a replay since i don´t fathom how it is possible since i've lost 200 vs 200 battles with equal upgrades that weren't even close to two well placed EMP´s, like me standing with 80 food left and the terran with like 175. Big P vs T army engagements are all about positioning, very volatile matchup. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
In WoL I could at least mech vs toss, but that is alot harder in HOTS. My micro is good enough in TvT and TvZ, but my win rate in TvP will soon drop to below 30% since I lack the micro to simultaniously EMP, snipe and dodge storms. Also, TvT? Is it fun or does these game take like 30minutes+++ all the time with tanks everywhere? PvP is atleast quickly over, brutal and fast, which I dont mind. It happens that your opponent contains you and is quite happily waiting till you run out of minerals, but generally TvTs are alot more dynamic than that. Because siege tanks are actually quite good in TvT you don't need your entire army to hold a push of his entire army. This means far more supply can be used for dropping and harrasment. And of course you also got attempts to flank the other player with your tanks. What some people are afraid of is the ultra slow tank pushes where you just slightly place a few tanks 2cm forwards and hope he doesnt have vision of them, but really that doesnt happen often, and if you maintain air superiority you really don't have to worry about it. And aditionally in HOTS ravens lobbing seeker missiles on the enemy is quite popular. In the end if the game is still going on one player will transition into battlecruisers and then generally a decission is forced quite soon. | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On April 22 2013 20:30 askmc70 wrote: the game is not all dependant on mechanics, if you're gonna whine about that and not take into consideration on why you really lost, then go lose more. No, I've played it from both sides, and Terrans do require a lot more apm and proaction. It's not about whining about the balance of the races (I consider T stronger on the higher leagues), but it's about acknowledging the imbalance of skill required. | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On April 22 2013 18:55 crappen wrote: And this is also the reason I hesitate in switching to Terran. A deathball of protoss can just steamroll you, as I did versus a terran recently, who was freaking maxed while I was at like 140 (clearly I suck at macro compared). Storm, chargelot and 2 collos (for him to waste a few food on vikings), and it was just funny to see how melted he was. Damn. It seems so stressing for a terran to kite and dodge all game long, and dont get me started on the drops they kind of have to do. And if they dont do this, you simply lose to the deathball. Also, TvT? Is it fun or does these game take like 30minutes+++ all the time with tanks everywhere? PvP is atleast quickly over, brutal and fast, which I dont mind. TvT is an amazing matchup. The big question: Bio or Mech (marines tanks too) really make it a versatile and diverse matchup. When you mechbro your TvTs vs a bioshitter, you don't feel like it's a mirror matchup. Edit: To be honest, any matchups not including terrans (ZvZ, PvZ, PvP) are pretty bad because of the way the races are meant to be played. Only terran is well designed in this game.. that race is focused on efficient small engagements, skirmishes and drops, and they do not want a maxed out battle. Zerg wants to get to the point that they can instant remax, and Protoss wants their 200 food deathball (which they can obtain on 3 bases.. even 2). So yeah the game will continue to be unwatchable half of the time if they don't revamp the races (although Zergs are better now) | ||
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