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On July 11 2013 01:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 05:47 red_hq wrote:On June 17 2013 05:01 Sabu113 wrote:On June 17 2013 04:56 Wombat_NI wrote:
We do have tools, but they don't really mesh with the current timings and build progressions that exist in the game. For example. storm drops arepotent, but by the time you have the infrastructure to execute them, especially in PvZ, killing a bunch of drones isn't really all that helpful against a Zerg who is maxed with a whole lot of larvae ready to go. Genuine question. What do you think ends up being more effective ( assuming the min line gets cleared). Storm drop or hellbats? Hellbats every time. The risk of loosing hellbats and a single medivac is only that, it costs a bunch of minerals and a little bit of gas and can hit pre 13 minutes in a standard game. Also you likely would already have a medivac. Templars cost a lot more in tech, cost tons of gas, you have to charge their energy before the drop and the drop ship itself you would never have in your primary composition to start with as it is just cheaper and requires less micro to put down proxy pylons. The time it costs in the robo equates to about a half of a colossus and it is pretty supply heavy too. If loose a templar drop you loose so much more than a hellbat drop. 2 hellbats + medivac = 300m/100g Warp Prism + High Templar = 250m/150g Is it really that different?
Yes.
It is more expensive in gas, which is more important for the Protoss than minerals.
If you go for a Templar mid game, it will still hit later than a Hellbat drop. If you go Colossus, it'll only hit when the toss has 3 bases.
The damage comparison is disgustingly in the T favour - if there are no worker pulls then the HT will kill a good chunk of the workers, but so will the hellbats. If there is a worker pull, the HT will kill a couple of workers (also meaning one less potential storm in a big fight) whereas the Terran will still get a few kills AND can chase down the probes with medivacs. Also you have to pull quicker to avoid Hellbat drops (I think.)
Also, the Robo usage is key. If P loses a WP and tries to go for another one, then this will cut into Colossus production - T loses a Medivac then they can just use another of the 6 or so they already have, and are often producing already. Even the first WP will cut into Observer production, although this is sort of countered by the fact you will be able to put pressure on more easily and as such do not need as much of a defensive advantage.
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On July 11 2013 06:43 ThyLastPenguin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 01:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On June 17 2013 05:47 red_hq wrote:On June 17 2013 05:01 Sabu113 wrote:On June 17 2013 04:56 Wombat_NI wrote:
We do have tools, but they don't really mesh with the current timings and build progressions that exist in the game. For example. storm drops arepotent, but by the time you have the infrastructure to execute them, especially in PvZ, killing a bunch of drones isn't really all that helpful against a Zerg who is maxed with a whole lot of larvae ready to go. Genuine question. What do you think ends up being more effective ( assuming the min line gets cleared). Storm drop or hellbats? Hellbats every time. The risk of loosing hellbats and a single medivac is only that, it costs a bunch of minerals and a little bit of gas and can hit pre 13 minutes in a standard game. Also you likely would already have a medivac. Templars cost a lot more in tech, cost tons of gas, you have to charge their energy before the drop and the drop ship itself you would never have in your primary composition to start with as it is just cheaper and requires less micro to put down proxy pylons. The time it costs in the robo equates to about a half of a colossus and it is pretty supply heavy too. If loose a templar drop you loose so much more than a hellbat drop. 2 hellbats + medivac = 300m/100g Warp Prism + High Templar = 250m/150g Is it really that different? Yes. It is more expensive in gas, which is more important for the Protoss than minerals. If you go for a Templar mid game, it will still hit later than a Hellbat drop. If you go Colossus, it'll only hit when the toss has 3 bases. The damage comparison is disgustingly in the T favour - if there are no worker pulls then the HT will kill a good chunk of the workers, but so will the hellbats. If there is a worker pull, the HT will kill a couple of workers (also meaning one less potential storm in a big fight) whereas the Terran will still get a few kills AND can chase down the probes with medivacs. Also you have to pull quicker to avoid Hellbat drops (I think.) Also, the Robo usage is key. If P loses a WP and tries to go for another one, then this will cut into Colossus production - T loses a Medivac then they can just use another of the 6 or so they already have, and are often producing already. Even the first WP will cut into Observer production, although this is sort of countered by the fact you will be able to put pressure on more easily and as such do not need as much of a defensive advantage.
Yes, but those are tactical flaws, not resource ones.
8 marines will not realistically threaten to kill a base but 1 Warp Prism can. It requires a stronger response than dropship play.
Its a give and take.
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I really don't want to switch races because I love protoss, but sometimes the way our race works is so annoying. Artosis was taking about this on meta one time, and it really is the truth: it is hard to find a game where a protoss beat a zerg where they do not sneak a pylon up early or all in.
I shouldn't HAVE to get the pylon up because that is something the zerg should be able to shut down, but you have to surprise them somehow to get an advantage. Especially on maps with open thirds.
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I dont know but it feels like toss is a race were you can get GM pretty easily (compared to other races ofc) but it is hard for a good toss to seperate from medicore toss players that basically just play the same premade standardbos over and over again without any reaction to get cheap wins.
Toss needs some mechanics that enable them to do rewarding play that cannot be done by mediocre toss players. At the same time the mediocre toss players must use this "rewarding play" to beat good zerg or terran players instead of a moving or allining them. Ofc i m really generalising here but i think this is what toss needs if you break it down into simple words.
I think forcefields and units like collossi are terrible for the game, i also dont like the "suddenly an army appears" warpgate mechanic. Their race also seems to be a bit gimmicky, always hiding stuff and "hoping" the other player doesnt scout it in time.
But there is hope for toss right now, in proleague toss is doing really good and good players seem to get rewarded. The only thing i dont like is that really slow and "bad" toss players still get "high up" there in the ladder.
I really like the play of rain and parting (also i hated his soultrainshit in WOL), so lets hope that in the next expansion blizzard will add some units and mechanics for toss that will require a lot of skill so the really good players will shine and the "bad" players will fall down.
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EPT
