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On April 19 2013 18:56 DemigodcelpH wrote:
On April 19 2013 18:14 baldgye wrote:
it was horrible and PvZ became either the protoss all in's off two base, or the zerg wins...
That's how it was for Terran in PvT for all of WoL; your point falls apart unfortunately when you're being hypocritical.
Yea because lategame T with 20 ghosts and vikings sucks vs P.
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On April 19 2013 22:38 Extenz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 18:56 DemigodcelpH wrote:
On April 19 2013 18:14 baldgye wrote:
it was horrible and PvZ became either the protoss all in's off two base, or the zerg wins...
That's how it was for Terran in PvT for all of WoL; your point falls apart unfortunately when you're being hypocritical. Yea because lategame T with 20 ghosts and vikings sucks vs P.
Building 20+ Ghosts and mass Vikings while dealing with Zealots/DTs harass + the threat of the Protoss army steamrolling you while you transition is extremely difficult, not to mention you still need excellent control (beyond the skill cap of 99.9% of the Terran population) to fully use this glass cannon army. Plus adding a few Tempests considerably weaken mass Ghosts/Vikings anyway, probably making it borderline obsolete as Vikings can't handle both Tempests + 6-7 Colossi. I have seen ByuN (i. e. one of the best Ghosts/Vikings players) regularly lose to this on his stream.
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Warpgate production is cyclic, just like zerg production.
Robo + Stargate production is queued, just like terran production.
So, as toss, you should master both production mechanics. Sure, you have 6 gates. You don't need to warp all the six units each round, unless you see some kind of aggression; just like all zergs do (you have larvae, you don't need to spend them all at once per each round of larvae spit). The true protoss master combines his gamesense and his scouting and then he decides to produce more or less units.
In other words, OP is just like any other toss: a whining master.
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On April 19 2013 23:13 Apoteosis wrote:
Warpgate production is cyclic, just like zerg production.
Robo + Stargate production is queued, just like terran production.
So, as toss, you should master both production mechanics. Sure, you have 6 gates. You don't need to warp all the six units each round, unless you see some kind of aggression; just like all zergs do (you have larvae, you don't need to spend them all at once per each round of larvae spit). The true protoss master combines his gamesense and his scouting and then he decides to produce more or less units.
In other words, OP is just like any other toss: a whining master.
Problem with the example is that stacking up production (warp gate cycles) can't be done the same way larva can through injects.
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On April 19 2013 23:13 Apoteosis wrote:
Warpgate production is cyclic, just like zerg production.
Robo + Stargate production is queued, just like terran production.
So, as toss, you should master both production mechanics. Sure, you have 6 gates. You don't need to warp all the six units each round, unless you see some kind of aggression; just like all zergs do (you have larvae, you don't need to spend the all at once per each round of larvae spit). The true protoss master combines his gamesense and his scouting and then he decides to produce more or less units.
In other words, OP is just like any other toss: a whining master.
Zerg can stockpile about 20-30 larvae per hatch with marginal loss , protoss cannot "stockpile" anything besides chronoboost. You build a gate that is being unused = waste. Get some knowledge before you call other people whiners.
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On April 19 2013 06:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 06:17 Mistakes wrote:On April 19 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On April 19 2013 06:03 baldgye wrote:On April 19 2013 05:57 Klogon wrote:
On the brightside of all of this... at least it gives something Blizzard to work on for LotV if they choose to do so. Maybe LotV can be SC2's BW  The TL hipsters will never let that happen. Soon, not even BW will be BW. It will be all about pre-BroodWar When the micro was real and people cared about macro. Not this new, imitation macro and micro with their hightech mechanical keyboards and mice. Back in the day when we had to clean our mice with q tips and punch those keys till it hurt on our shitty cell keyboards. Back when it was real man, real RTS.
Ha ! Gold =) !
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On April 12 2013 12:17 ThaReckoning wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 12:12 JSK wrote:
This is a fantastically well-written post and deserves attention.
Part of me believes it and part of me wants to believe that some of this has changed in HOTS. I am a Masters Protoss as well, and I do feel that the MSC has allowed me to play passive, macro games to a better degree than in WOL, thus making me less reliant on those gimmicky all-in builds and thereby more consistent...
But at the same time I do feel what you're saying. Even those gimmicky all-ins are often much worse now. Gateway all-ins against Terran feel impossible now and have always been pretty bad against Zerg. Even builds such as the Parting immortal/sentry can be stopped by swarm hosts. And Protoss has never really been able to macro evenly with the larvae mechanic and mules. It makes for a truly awkward feeling game sometimes - the kind of awkward where you feel forced to perform the kind of gimmicky plays that seem necessary to stay even. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.
Thanks. I feel like the MSC was meant to achieve something like making gateway expands more viable in PvZ or give protoss the ability to punish greedy terrans, but to me it feels like it didn't do any of those things. Good protoss players weren't having trouble initially stopping all ins, they were having trouble getting a lead and keeping it afterward. The MSC only helps you hold it off, at about what the cost would have been in WoL, it's just simpler to do. That's part of why I feel it was a bad change.
MSC is the fucking shit. Go air toss agasint mass widow mines. As soon as they burrow just recall back.
Got enough ff in pvz go fucking move out onto the map, if you engage somewhere bad just ff and recall.
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On April 19 2013 23:13 Apoteosis wrote:
Warpgate production is cyclic, just like zerg production.
Robo + Stargate production is queued, just like terran production.
So, as toss, you should master both production mechanics.
In conclusion, Protoss has the hardest macro in the game. The A-Queuer races can't match the skill ceiling.
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On April 19 2013 23:13 Apoteosis wrote:
Warpgate production is cyclic, just like zerg production.
Robo + Stargate production is queued, just like terran production.
So, as toss, you should master both production mechanics. Sure, you have 6 gates. You don't need to warp all the six units each round, unless you see some kind of aggression; just like all zergs do (you have larvae, you don't need to spend them all at once per each round of larvae spit). The true protoss master combines his gamesense and his scouting and then he decides to produce more or less units.
In other words, OP is just like any other toss: a whining master.
Zerg should never have larva available until they reach max. Anything less is just bad macro, usually a supply cap or lack of economy.
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On April 20 2013 00:57 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 23:13 Apoteosis wrote:
Warpgate production is cyclic, just like zerg production.
Robo + Stargate production is queued, just like terran production.
So, as toss, you should master both production mechanics. Sure, you have 6 gates. You don't need to warp all the six units each round, unless you see some kind of aggression; just like all zergs do (you have larvae, you don't need to spend them all at once per each round of larvae spit). The true protoss master combines his gamesense and his scouting and then he decides to produce more or less units.
In other words, OP is just like any other toss: a whining master. Zerg should never have larva available until they reach max. Anything less is just bad macro, usually a supply cap or lack of economy.
Secrets to good macro.
Terran: Keep reinforce lines open, continual hit and retreat tactics to pressure and then regroup with reinforcements.
Zerg: Max out fast and stock larva for quick transitions.
Protoss: Don't max out and keep warpgates available as a swiss army knife in response to drops or a quick max out during a push. Find a way to not die while only at 170-180 supply vs a max army.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On April 20 2013 00:57 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 23:13 Apoteosis wrote:
Warpgate production is cyclic, just like zerg production.
Robo + Stargate production is queued, just like terran production.
So, as toss, you should master both production mechanics. Sure, you have 6 gates. You don't need to warp all the six units each round, unless you see some kind of aggression; just like all zergs do (you have larvae, you don't need to spend them all at once per each round of larvae spit). The true protoss master combines his gamesense and his scouting and then he decides to produce more or less units.
In other words, OP is just like any other toss: a whining master. Zerg should never have larva available until they reach max. Anything less is just bad macro, usually a supply cap or lack of economy.
There are plenty of reasons Zerg stockpile larvae before they're maxed. Waiting on their Spire to complete, for example.
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On April 19 2013 23:23 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 23:13 Apoteosis wrote:
Warpgate production is cyclic, just like zerg production.
Robo + Stargate production is queued, just like terran production.
So, as toss, you should master both production mechanics. Sure, you have 6 gates. You don't need to warp all the six units each round, unless you see some kind of aggression; just like all zergs do (you have larvae, you don't need to spend the all at once per each round of larvae spit). The true protoss master combines his gamesense and his scouting and then he decides to produce more or less units.
In other words, OP is just like any other toss: a whining master. Zerg can stockpile about 20-30 larvae per hatch with marginal loss , protoss cannot "stockpile" anything besides chronoboost. You build a gate that is being unused = waste. Get some knowledge before you call other people whiners.
...
You know that a hatch can only have 19 larva max, right? Any inject after 19 larva returns nothing. Protoss can stockpile plenty of things. They can stockpile gates and other production buildings. They can stockpile resources. Both of these are valuable commodities. In fact, I am reminded of PvT against a terran super-army, where that is exactly what you want to do.
Don't get me wrong, I would love having 30 larva on one hatchery  .
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On April 19 2013 23:23 bgx wrote:
Zerg can stockpile about 20-30 larvae per hatch with marginal loss
Thanks for the laughs.
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I made something like that myself once, but it never got any exposure. I couldn't get any high level players to test it because they felt that it would never help them improve at the real SC2. In my mod I had things like:
reactors on starports and factories only increased production 50%
mules not oversaturating, had a cooldown
salvage taking ~15s
stalkers having a lower firing delay (better kiting) and getting better upgrade scaling
sentries had a version of time bomb
ultras pathed over small units
colossus nerf vs armored
protoss got detection via observers from tc, stargate, and robo
cannons unlocked from the gateway
Couldn't really get anybody behind it.
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Cannons from gateway? That'd sure improve PvP....
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On April 20 2013 16:13 baldgye wrote:
Cannons from gateway? That'd sure improve PvP....
Yeah, you could never be cannon rushed or proxy gated at all, it'd be great.
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On April 20 2013 17:01 ThaReckoning wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 16:13 baldgye wrote:
Cannons from gateway? That'd sure improve PvP.... Yeah, you could never be cannon rushed or proxy gated at all, it'd be great.
Nonono, its proxy gate with cannon rush. Shit man, its revolutionary. Its like in those teamgames where the protoss cannon rushes and the zerg 6 pools.
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On April 20 2013 17:54 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 17:01 ThaReckoning wrote:On April 20 2013 16:13 baldgye wrote:
Cannons from gateway? That'd sure improve PvP.... Yeah, you could never be cannon rushed or proxy gated at all, it'd be great. Nonono, its proxy gate with cannon rush. Shit man, its revolutionary. Its like in those teamgames where the protoss cannon rushes and the zerg 6 pools.
Lmao, fixing sc2 match up by match up here!
Just think, you could do a standard build and then cannon contain each other and then rush to oricals and mass void rays...
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On April 20 2013 17:54 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 17:01 ThaReckoning wrote:On April 20 2013 16:13 baldgye wrote:
Cannons from gateway? That'd sure improve PvP.... Yeah, you could never be cannon rushed or proxy gated at all, it'd be great. Nonono, its proxy gate with cannon rush. Shit man, its revolutionary. Its like in those teamgames where the protoss cannon rushes and the zerg 6 pools.
How would you proxy gate or cannon rush someone who can scout around their base, and drop one cannon to stop it?
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EPT
