On April 19 2013 04:01 Salient wrote: I wonder if Blizzard is aware of this issue. The developers seem to think everything is wonderful in HoTS.
Yeah, it's very disheartening to think about. Their definition of balance has nothing to do with actual gameplay, and everything to do with w/l ratios. I think they're missing the big picture.
but how exactly would you determine "gameplay"
I'm very excited of early game toss doing pokes with stalkers and late game toss players who harass with prism/zealots while using templars to keep their army safe as they poke the middle.
But I also hate zvz and tvt the two most dynamic and explosive matchups.
To each their own right?
I hate watching PvZ after the protoss starts their third. Because its either protoss holds it (and turtles) or protoss doesn't--and its game over.
The early game play of pokes, phoenix scouts and overlord peeks to try to ascertain if its a rush or not is exciting to me.
Im not saying Toss doesn't need changes (they need a LOT) but I can't see why you'd fault Blizz for sticking to win ratios. Its a very important statistic.
Good gameplay could probably mean that you can do a variety of styles and stay relevant in terms of being able to win. Think back to around the end of WoL. PvZ technically was kinda balanced, but was it a good matchup? Absolutely not. It was either Protoss does an all-in (be it immortal/sentry, or those pre-hive colossus timings) and wins or Zerg wins with Infestor/Broodlord (yes in the last couple weeks MC was winning with mass air but we never got to see that play out). If Protoss does anything else, they lose. If Zerg does anything else, they lose. It was balanced but in a really unhealthy way.
Statistics should be a tool to help make a judgment, not the be-all-end-all that an entire argument is based off of. We had this point drilled into our heads a lot in my research statistics class. The problem is that Blizzard looks at these stats, sees that they are around 50% and calls it a day. In reality, they should not even be looking at statistics until after answering questions like "Does each race have access to a variety of gameplay options in this matchup as of right now", "Is there more than one or two ways for them to viably win the game?", "Upon scouting a tech, is there any flexibility in the response?" and questions like those. Right now if a Protoss sees a spire in PvZ they have to throw down more stargates, there is no choice between what way to deal with the opponent's tech, it is either phoenixes or lose. Likewise in ZvZ, if a Zerg sees another Zerg going spire, they either go spire themselves or probably lose the game, they have no other viable choices. Inflexible gameplay scares people away. If the average SC2 player knew that at least half of their PvZs would be hour long wars against static defence and free units and that they were not likely to win, do you think they would want to play?
I'm in agreement--but that still doesn't void the winrate statistics. Any and all changes must be made with those statistics in mind. If a change makes the game more dynamic--but zerg wins 60% of the time, then its the wrong change. Reaching 50% winrate is the PERFECT time to make changes since you can always "step back" to the balanced gameplay.
I mostly have philosophical differences in the design of protoss (I love the stalker for example, I liked it better when it was cheap unit called a Hydralisk in BW) I dislike that Protoss is the race with the fast and fragile units (Stalkers, Phoenix, Warp Prisms, Colossus) as opposed to being the brutish but powerful units (Dragoons, Reavers, Scouts, Arbiters) it made more sense flavor wise.
I believe changing that will fix a lot of things.
Yes and your first point gets back to the issue we were discussing. Blizzard seems to refuse to backpedal on patches, even if it causes long-term instability. Around the start of 2012 things were relatively balanced, Zerg was slightly unfavoured in TvZ but other than that things were peachy. Then came the queen patch and suddenly Zerg win percentages skyrocketed and were above 60% at times (especially in GSL). One would think that would have clued Blizzard in but they never bothered to look back on that patch and think that perhaps they went to far and should try something else. Same with the muta buff. Before it showed up, things were obviously in flux a bit (it was beta after all), but were starting to stabilize. After it suddenly ZvZ turned into a nightmare and PvZ got extra stupid, and neither have any sign of going back so far. After seeing that you would think they would go "Well that didn't work, let's try something else!" but they didn't, they left it in and tried doing all these stupid bandage patches that have done nothing so far. They've been doing that all along with every bad change, and it is starting to become more noticeable as people get better at the game.
I agree with your ideas about the design of Protoss. Currently they are trying to make Protoss too many things, they are supposed to be the expensive, powerful race that is immobile but instead they make fast, weak units, and have incredibly portable production. Because of these design goofups, if protoss had the units they are supposed to have they would be completely broken because they would be so good. So we are stuck with weak, crappy gateway units that can't hold their own against much cheaper units.
Its just playing zerg and protoss is kinda boring, the big macro level is more or less fine, strategy aspect is great, but there is very small micro oriented abuse.
Sure you will fly around with your unscouted pheonix flock and pick 5 units, sure you will sneak your oracle and gain small but very important economic edge here and there.
Im not saying there is no inspiring moments, sure they are, 80% or more comes from terran since Hots and seems like it will never go away.
However in grand scheme of thing all of this are just touches, there is nothing akin to overstretched harassments of 11muta group or reaver centered play, What is there is small adrenaline, its more like decision making and counting supplies, the momentum breaks are either too heavy (gg no counter, gg forcefielded) or too light (he is prepared, meaning macro harass may automatically fail). Only speedvacs and very few other unit/combos disregard that rule.
Fantasy vs TRUE, many loved that, overextention not axed (FF) action was actually what made BW harass great to watch. The problem of mentioned GSL match, was that the game was meticulously orchestrated into a state of extreme low economy and indecision which made it all possible.
I dunno its pretty hard to accept Protoss design coming from being fan of Bisu, Stork, JangBi and almost any succesful Protoss in BW. Sure protoss was always more gimmicky than other races but hell it was fun, starting from Reach zealot bombs, Nal_ra reaver play, Bisu sair and dark templar, Stork Reaver and Carrier, JangBi Storms. Those are labels, sure, but it defined the race.
I can dig you almost all the youtube videos but i guess its not needed everything is there and always was. Its just the ears that should listen are deaf.
Oh they listened once, to Nony. Didnt change much given how whole idea of Stork-esque carrier play truly is foreign to SC2 design. I very hope im wrong on that one as Stork bringing carriers into SC2 would be probably insta-favorite moment of mine in whole sc2. Sorry for fan-boy nudge.
I understand that many things i mentioned come from grand design of Starcraft 2 and it's mechanical rules but dissecting small problems and trying to mini-patch them results in prolonged discussions like this. There are many things that could be done WITHOUT breaking the MBS/Automine taboo and be totally fine, you could say a "good compromise", yet I can't see this compromise in Protoss design.
I wouldn't even say this, but seeing how Blizzard themselves are not really set in stone. Imagine, you can't really say "We will cut Carrier, there is no point to that unit, its placeholder", "Nony makes video", Blizzard "oh shit". Carrier back.
On April 19 2013 04:01 Salient wrote: I wonder if Blizzard is aware of this issue. The developers seem to think everything is wonderful in HoTS.
Yeah, it's very disheartening to think about. Their definition of balance has nothing to do with actual gameplay, and everything to do with w/l ratios. I think they're missing the big picture.
but how exactly would you determine "gameplay"
I'm very excited of early game toss doing pokes with stalkers and late game toss players who harass with prism/zealots while using templars to keep their army safe as they poke the middle.
But I also hate zvz and tvt the two most dynamic and explosive matchups.
To each their own right?
I hate watching PvZ after the protoss starts their third. Because its either protoss holds it (and turtles) or protoss doesn't--and its game over.
The early game play of pokes, phoenix scouts and overlord peeks to try to ascertain if its a rush or not is exciting to me.
Im not saying Toss doesn't need changes (they need a LOT) but I can't see why you'd fault Blizz for sticking to win ratios. Its a very important statistic.
Good gameplay could probably mean that you can do a variety of styles and stay relevant in terms of being able to win. Think back to around the end of WoL. PvZ technically was kinda balanced, but was it a good matchup? Absolutely not. It was either Protoss does an all-in (be it immortal/sentry, or those pre-hive colossus timings) and wins or Zerg wins with Infestor/Broodlord (yes in the last couple weeks MC was winning with mass air but we never got to see that play out). If Protoss does anything else, they lose. If Zerg does anything else, they lose. It was balanced but in a really unhealthy way.
Statistics should be a tool to help make a judgment, not the be-all-end-all that an entire argument is based off of. We had this point drilled into our heads a lot in my research statistics class. The problem is that Blizzard looks at these stats, sees that they are around 50% and calls it a day. In reality, they should not even be looking at statistics until after answering questions like "Does each race have access to a variety of gameplay options in this matchup as of right now", "Is there more than one or two ways for them to viably win the game?", "Upon scouting a tech, is there any flexibility in the response?" and questions like those. Right now if a Protoss sees a spire in PvZ they have to throw down more stargates, there is no choice between what way to deal with the opponent's tech, it is either phoenixes or lose. Likewise in ZvZ, if a Zerg sees another Zerg going spire, they either go spire themselves or probably lose the game, they have no other viable choices. Inflexible gameplay scares people away. If the average SC2 player knew that at least half of their PvZs would be hour long wars against static defence and free units and that they were not likely to win, do you think they would want to play?
I'm in agreement--but that still doesn't void the winrate statistics. Any and all changes must be made with those statistics in mind. If a change makes the game more dynamic--but zerg wins 60% of the time, then its the wrong change. Reaching 50% winrate is the PERFECT time to make changes since you can always "step back" to the balanced gameplay.
I mostly have philosophical differences in the design of protoss (I love the stalker for example, I liked it better when it was cheap unit called a Hydralisk in BW) I dislike that Protoss is the race with the fast and fragile units (Stalkers, Phoenix, Warp Prisms, Colossus) as opposed to being the brutish but powerful units (Dragoons, Reavers, Scouts, Arbiters) it made more sense flavor wise.
I believe changing that will fix a lot of things.
Yes and your first point gets back to the issue we were discussing. Blizzard seems to refuse to backpedal on patches, even if it causes long-term instability. Around the start of 2012 things were relatively balanced, Zerg was slightly unfavoured in TvZ but other than that things were peachy. Then came the queen patch and suddenly Zerg win percentages skyrocketed and were above 60% at times (especially in GSL). One would think that would have clued Blizzard in but they never bothered to look back on that patch and think that perhaps they went to far and should try something else. Same with the muta buff. Before it showed up, things were obviously in flux a bit (it was beta after all), but were starting to stabilize. After it suddenly ZvZ turned into a nightmare and PvZ got extra stupid, and neither have any sign of going back so far. After seeing that you would think they would go "Well that didn't work, let's try something else!" but they didn't, they left it in and tried doing all these stupid bandage patches that have done nothing so far. They've been doing that all along with every bad change, and it is starting to become more noticeable as people get better at the game.
I agree with your ideas about the design of Protoss. Currently they are trying to make Protoss too many things, they are supposed to be the expensive, powerful race that is immobile but instead they make fast, weak units, and have incredibly portable production. Because of these design goofups, if protoss had the units they are supposed to have they would be completely broken because they would be so good. So we are stuck with weak, crappy gateway units that can't hold their own against much cheaper units.
Hmm.... I wonder if it would make "more sense" if terran had warp in tech? But don't call it that--call it like, drop pod beacons and would work similar to how drop pods worked in the campaign. Marines and Maruaders would have to have a slight nerf due to their increased mobility while Protoss would be the race "stuck" at home/with supply lines.
terran would become the tactically mobile (different from fast which zerg gets credit for) yet weak units dependent on Factory units to hold ground and barracks units to reinforce positions.
Protoss would need stronger frontline units--maybe even make a juggle switch--give Protoss the marauder and give terran the stalker (keep the graphics and names of course) so that Protoss ground marauders would slow units for zealots to slice up while stargate play would become *essential* at combating air play. But the lack of a gateway AA unit would force Blizz to have to strengthen stargate unit to actually be air superiority fighters, maybe even bring back the scout but make its attack AoE to compensate.
Now I'm just theorycrafting--my bad, didn't mean to do that.
I'm wondering what people think of Maps as well? Maybe current maps just aren't really favoring protoss at the moment. Everything is getting bigger and bigger and they all seem to be completely wide open, which seems to punish protoss as well. Maybe maps need to have more choked off points through out the map. Having a variety of choked and open points of interest in the map could benefit protoss a lot more, especially with their AoE & Forcefields.
Sure Whirlwind is huge and it's easier to take a 3rd for protoss, but the rest of the map is huge. Moving your army across the map leaves you extremely vulnerable, not only to getting attacked head on since it's so open, but vulnerable to counter attacks. Protoss just isn't really able to leave 1/3 of their force at home to defend, they have to rely on cannons, warp ins (which then makes their attack not as strong) or templars. Turning around to defend the counter attack is suicide and with the size of maps you'll arrive way too late and lose much more.
On April 19 2013 05:57 Klogon wrote: On the brightside of all of this... at least it gives something Blizzard to work on for LotV if they choose to do so.
On April 19 2013 05:57 Klogon wrote: On the brightside of all of this... at least it gives something Blizzard to work on for LotV if they choose to do so.
Maybe LotV can be SC2's BW
The TL hipsters will never let that happen. Soon, not even BW will be BW.
On April 19 2013 05:57 Klogon wrote: On the brightside of all of this... at least it gives something Blizzard to work on for LotV if they choose to do so.
Maybe LotV can be SC2's BW
The TL hipsters will never let that happen. Soon, not even BW will be BW.
On April 19 2013 05:57 Klogon wrote: On the brightside of all of this... at least it gives something Blizzard to work on for LotV if they choose to do so.
Maybe LotV can be SC2's BW
The TL hipsters will never let that happen. Soon, not even BW will be BW.
I mean in terms of changing the game, from what I understand SC was pretty bad and BW made it playable (never really played either)... If the big changes don't come HotS looks to go to a similar way to WoL.. and I don't think that type of game can last long as a sport that's watched because its boring.
On April 19 2013 05:57 Klogon wrote: On the brightside of all of this... at least it gives something Blizzard to work on for LotV if they choose to do so.
Maybe LotV can be SC2's BW
The TL hipsters will never let that happen. Soon, not even BW will be BW.
It will be all about pre-BroodWar
When the micro was real and people cared about macro. Not this new, imitation macro and micro with their hightech mechanical keyboards and mice. Back in the day when we had to clean our mice with q tips and punch those keys till it hurt on our shitty cell keyboards. Back when it was real man, real RTS.
On April 19 2013 05:57 Klogon wrote: On the brightside of all of this... at least it gives something Blizzard to work on for LotV if they choose to do so.
Maybe LotV can be SC2's BW
The TL hipsters will never let that happen. Soon, not even BW will be BW.
It will be all about pre-BroodWar
When the micro was real and people cared about macro. Not this new, imitation macro and micro with their hightech mechanical keyboards and mice. Back in the day when we had to clean our mice with q tips and punch those keys till it hurt on our shitty cell keyboards. Back when it was real man, real RTS.
When we be blingin' cables flowin' 56k with that aol ring be ringing e'ryday!
On April 19 2013 05:57 Klogon wrote: On the brightside of all of this... at least it gives something Blizzard to work on for LotV if they choose to do so.
Maybe LotV can be SC2's BW
The TL hipsters will never let that happen. Soon, not even BW will be BW.
It will be all about pre-BroodWar
When the micro was real and people cared about macro. Not this new, imitation macro and micro with their hightech mechanical keyboards and mice. Back in the day when we had to clean our mice with q tips and punch those keys till it hurt on our shitty cell keyboards. Back when it was real man, real RTS.
When we be blingin' cables flowin' 56k with that aol ring be ringing e'ryday!
When we didn't all in because we wanted the quick, coin flip win, but because our mom might pick up the phone and disconnect the game. We all-ined because we had to man, because we had to.
On April 19 2013 05:57 Klogon wrote: On the brightside of all of this... at least it gives something Blizzard to work on for LotV if they choose to do so.
Some of the points that the OP made are similar to Victor's post on the game back in beta. If they didn't take to heart a post from someone of his standing then, I seriously doubt they'll listen to anyone on this subject now.
On April 19 2013 05:57 Klogon wrote: On the brightside of all of this... at least it gives something Blizzard to work on for LotV if they choose to do so.
Maybe LotV can be SC2's BW
The TL hipsters will never let that happen. Soon, not even BW will be BW.
It will be all about pre-BroodWar
When the micro was real and people cared about macro. Not this new, imitation macro and micro with their hightech mechanical keyboards and mice. Back in the day when we had to clean our mice with q tips and punch those keys till it hurt on our shitty cell keyboards. Back when it was real man, real RTS.
Lets be fair here. BW is still unquestionably the richer experience. 2011, the days of the 1/1/1 and the year of Broodlord infestor, JD's two muta group control vs idra's 40pack, hots zvz v BW zvz (See Zero on Matchpoint <3).
I think it's fair to say that a lot of the really attractive and awesome aspects about protoss that existed in BW didn't translate over to SC2. A lot of what BGX talks about in terms of adrenaline and harass play isn't there no matter how hard they try to force it to exist with cheap gimmicks like medivac boost. Gut test, compare pimpest plays between bw and sc2. Sure there's some degree of nostalgia but don't knock a game that provided a more balanced, richer and interesting experience through 07-09 than SC2 has to date. Sure it can change but- man I just want that excitement back!
Kinda silly to call people who like Shakespeare and Faulkner hipsters :p
Terrible OP. If you have no more claim to fame than being a mid-masters Protoss, it's not a good idea to assume people will be happy to wade through a whole essay written by you.
I wouldn't have to say this if it weren't for the fact that a much more lucid discussion thread started by me on a similar topic was closed just a while ago. And I was taken to task for not putting comparable "effort" into my post, i.e. not initiating a thread marked [D] for discussion with an OP that acts as a barrier to discussion.
It seems the forum is run by morons with a supplementary, hermaphroditic clittoris that's sensitive only to long-winded and meandering posts strewn with big fuck-off images whose value in humour isn't sufficient to pay for the revolutions of the scroll wheel required by them.
On April 19 2013 07:05 Rossie wrote: Terrible OP. If you have no more claim to fame than being a mid-masters Protoss, it's not a good idea to assume people will be happy to wade through a whole essay written by you.
I wouldn't have to say this if it weren't for the fact that a much more lucid discussion thread started by me on a similar topic was closed just a while ago. And I was taken to task for not putting comparable "effort" into my post, i.e. not initiating a thread marked [D] for discussion with an OP that acts as a barrier to discussion.
It seems the forum is run by morons with a supplementary, hermaphroditic clittoris that's sensitive only to long-winded and meandering posts strewn with big fuck-off images whose value in humour isn't sufficient to pay for the revolutions of the scroll wheel required by them.
..... ....... .......... .............
??????????????
Can you please, um, elucidate your point more clearly?
Edit/ That was quick. He had another "we cannot hold" thread and is obviously nursing a grievance because it was closed. He does have a pronounced track record as a leading Protoss balance whiner, though. Not a worthy addition to Aiur.
At this thread. I'd prefer to wait and see with regard to HOTS. In WOL, I realised over time that many of the problems I thought Protoss had were simply mistaken (weak gateway units, warpgate etc). But, these notions still have force and are repeated.
I do believe though, that some of the problems with the game (if they are problems) are due to the hardness of the counters in Starcraft 2. But, this is felt by all races and at all levels within the game. It may be that it is felt the hardest by Protoss. I don't know. That said, I've long wished that the Stalker was looked at. I think a lot of the perceved issues with Protoss comes from that unit (cool as it is). A buff to the unit, and a nerf to Blink (that is the cooldown) may be worth looking at. It's always been a hindrance to Protoss that our chief "tier one" damage dealing unit, the Zealot, is a melee unit that engages ranged units in PvT and is countered by the Roach in PvZ (if not to the same terrible extent that the Stalker is hard countered by the Marauder).
On April 19 2013 05:57 Klogon wrote: On the brightside of all of this... at least it gives something Blizzard to work on for LotV if they choose to do so.
Maybe LotV can be SC2's BW
The TL hipsters will never let that happen. Soon, not even BW will be BW.
It will be all about pre-BroodWar
When the micro was real and people cared about macro. Not this new, imitation macro and micro with their hightech mechanical keyboards and mice. Back in the day when we had to clean our mice with q tips and punch those keys till it hurt on our shitty cell keyboards. Back when it was real man, real RTS.
Lets be fair here. BW is still unquestionably the richer experience. 2011, the days of the 1/1/1 and the year of Broodlord infestor, JD's two muta group control vs idra's 40pack, hots zvz v BW zvz (See Zero on Matchpoint <3).
I think it's fair to say that a lot of the really attractive and awesome aspects about protoss that existed in BW didn't translate over to SC2. A lot of what BGX talks about in terms of adrenaline and harass play isn't there no matter how hard they try to force it to exist with cheap gimmicks like medivac boost. Gut test, compare pimpest plays between bw and sc2. Sure there's some degree of nostalgia but don't knock a game that provided a more balanced, richer and interesting experience through 07-09 than SC2 has to date. Sure it can change but- man I just want that excitement back!
Kinda silly to call people who like Shakespeare and Faulkner hipsters :p
EPT
