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On March 15 2013 08:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 07:35 Phay wrote:
Kerrigan: A drone? Do you know what could happen if I take control of a Zerg??
Valerian: I know, I know, but we are in a very controlled environment.
Now, build a hatchery
Now, build a spawning pool!
<facepalm> Still better than the first Zerg mission in SC1. Daggoth: "Select a Laaaaaarva and turn it into an Overlord." Daggoth: "Never use your last drone to make a building." Zasz: "Greetings! I too am a Cerebrate for the Overmind!" Though I guess having a raspy voice makes everything sound better.
I laughed so hard that my coke came out of my nose. xD
But really, I enjoyed the campaign. Yes, it wasn't the best but people I think have unrealistic expectations for these kinds of games. BW's story was all condensed into 5 minute monologs that dragged on forever. The story itself was decent but the presentation was just as bad, if not worst. You guys act like the BW campaign was some sort of glorious feat of RTS campaign engineering but in reality it's just a vehicle to show off gameplay and new units / tech, and I think that the campaign did that well.
As I look back on it, I didn't like how the romance drove a lot of it, but it makes sense if you do analyze the story from the beginning and Kerrigan's underlying motif is still revenge.
My only real complaint was that it was just ridiculously easy. Like seriously. Come on Blizz. .T.T
Say what you want about it, but I enjoyed it.
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Too much like a RPG game instead of a RTS. There is too much focus in Kerrigan instead of focus on the Zerg themselves. Given the concept of the Swarm it would be much more interesting to command massive Zerg armies instead of walking around babysitting Kerrigan.
Definitely. This was probably an intentional move by Blizzard to appeal to a larger audience, but it really does take away from the epic scope of the storyline.
The only explanation for Jim Raynor’s behavior is that he’s completely crazy. This man remains obsessed for an alien woman (this is bestiality or zoophilia by the way) that is responsible for the death of billions. He is a psychopath. I just wished that Nova had put an end to his misery.
Jim Raynor ceased to be a meaningful protagonist the moment he forgot about his vow to kill Kerrigan.
Blizzard creates this amazing universe and then it develops a cheesy love story as its central point. Disappointing to say the least.
It's possible to have a personal story against an epic backdrop. Examples include the Hobbits in LotR, or Tom Hanks's squad in Saving Private Ryan. SC1 did it decently with Raynor's arc. But SC2 didn't get the balance right.
Kerrigan is supposed to be the pinnacle of an evolutionary race and then we discover that she evolved high heels on her feet. (facepalm)
This is a criticism that can be aimed at a lot of video games / anime / etc for how they portray women, but that doesn't make you any less right.
Blizzard tries to portray Kerrigan as a more human character, however it fails terribly. She sends the Broodmothers to destroy entire worlds and kills billions in her quest to kill Mengsk. Are we supposed to feel a little empathy when she lets a ship of wounded men escape? I ended up feeling more empathy for Mengsk.
Completely agree. To those who keep saying "try writing a better ending to HotS", remember that Kerrigan was the one who beheaded Arcturus's father. It was that event that caused him to leave the Confederate military and take up his father's cause. He had disagreed with the rebellion, but the deaths of his family (mother, father, fifteen year old sister) drove him to swear vengeance against the Confederacy. He achieved his goal, but somewhere along the way he became consumed by the power he had wielded to enact vengeance.
Flash foward to New Gettysburg, Tarsonis. Mengsk, on the verge of completing his revenge against the Confederacy (sacrificing his humanity in the process by using merciless Zerg), enacts the second part of his revenge by leaving Kerrigan to be consumed by the Zerg. Thus completes his revenge...
...except Kerrigan doesn't die. She manipulates everyone and rises up, first succeeding the Overmind, then consolidating her hold over the Swarm, then using both Terrans and Protoss to take more and more power, all while planning vengeance against Mengsk, ultimately bring the full wrath of the Swarm against millions of human beings for this sole purpose. Sound familiar? I believe this to be an intentional mirror of Mengsk's character on the writers' part - an excellent commentary on the pointlessness of revenge. On top of this, Kerrigan's personal drive for revenge causes the one good man in all of StarCraft (excluding the Protoss, who all tend to be noble) to "turn" toward the dark side in his own quest for revenge.
With this all in mind, let's look at the HotS ending. With some minor adjustments, a final confrontation of words would have been so much more electric (no pun intended) than a half-inspired "boss fight" with Mengsk. Instead of....
Mengsk: I made you into a monster, Kerrigan.
Kerrigan: You made us all into monsters.
....this would have had greater impact:
Kerrigan: You made me into a monster, Mengsk.
Mengsk: You made us all into monsters.
Because in her drive for revenge, she had turned Raynor (and pretty much the rest of the universe) against her. And by killing Mengsk, she would only have reset the cycle with Valerian out there. Except somehow, Raynor and Valerian are on her side when this all goes down, and she walks away the good guy at the end of it all. What a joke.
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On March 15 2013 11:04 Warlock40 wrote:Show nested quote +Too much like a RPG game instead of a RTS. There is too much focus in Kerrigan instead of focus on the Zerg themselves. Given the concept of the Swarm it would be much more interesting to command massive Zerg armies instead of walking around babysitting Kerrigan. Definitely. This was probably an intentional move by Blizzard to appeal to a larger audience, but it really does take away from the epic scope of the storyline. Show nested quote +The only explanation for Jim Raynor’s behavior is that he’s completely crazy. This man remains obsessed for an alien woman (this is bestiality or zoophilia by the way) that is responsible for the death of billions. He is a psychopath. I just wished that Nova had put an end to his misery. Jim Raynor ceased to be a meaningful protagonist the moment he forgot about his vow to kill Kerrigan. Show nested quote +Blizzard creates this amazing universe and then it develops a cheesy love story as its central point. Disappointing to say the least. It's possible to have a personal story against an epic backdrop. Examples include the Hobbits in LotR, or Tom Hanks's squad in Saving Private Ryan. SC1 did it decently with Raynor's arc. But SC2 didn't get the balance right. Show nested quote +Kerrigan is supposed to be the pinnacle of an evolutionary race and then we discover that she evolved high heels on her feet. (facepalm) This is a criticism that can be aimed at a lot of video games / anime / etc for how they portray women, but that doesn't make you any less right. Show nested quote +Blizzard tries to portray Kerrigan as a more human character, however it fails terribly. She sends the Broodmothers to destroy entire worlds and kills billions in her quest to kill Mengsk. Are we supposed to feel a little empathy when she lets a ship of wounded men escape? I ended up feeling more empathy for Mengsk. Completely agree. To those who keep saying "try writing a better ending to HotS", remember that Kerrigan was the one who beheaded Arcturus's father. It was that event that caused him to leave the Confederate military and take up his father's cause. He had disagreed with the rebellion, but the deaths of his family (mother, father, fifteen year old sister) drove him to swear vengeance against the Confederacy. He achieved his goal, but somewhere along the way he became consumed by the power he had wielded to enact vengeance. Flash foward to New Gettysburg, Tarsonis. Mengsk, on the verge of completing his revenge against the Confederacy (sacrificing his humanity in the process by using merciless Zerg), enacts the second part of his revenge by leaving Kerrigan to be consumed by the Zerg. Thus completes his revenge... ...except Kerrigan doesn't die. She manipulates everyone and rises up, first succeeding the Overmind, then consolidating her hold over the Swarm, then using both Terrans and Protoss to take more and more power, all while planning vengeance against Mengsk, ultimately bring the full wrath of the Swarm against millions of human beings for this sole purpose. Sound familiar? I believe this to be an intentional mirror of Mengsk's character on the writers' part - an excellent commentary on the pointlessness of revenge. On top of this, Kerrigan's personal drive for revenge causes the one good man in all of StarCraft (excluding the Protoss, who all tend to be noble) to "turn" toward the dark side in his own quest for revenge. With this all in mind, let's look at the HotS ending. With some minor adjustments, a final confrontation of words would have been so much more electric (no pun intended) than a half-inspired "boss fight" with Mengsk. Instead of.... Mengsk: I made you into a monster, Kerrigan. Kerrigan: You made us all into monsters. ....this would have had greater impact: Kerrigan: You made me into a monster, Mengsk. Mengsk: You made us all into monsters. Because in her drive for revenge, she had turned Raynor (and pretty much the rest of the universe) against her. And by killing Mengsk, she would only have reset the cycle with Valerian out there. Except somehow, Raynor and Valerian are on her side when this all goes down, and she walks away the good guy at the end of it all. What a joke.
Question is if Valerian is interested in anything besides power
I'd expect him to backstab the protagonists, if I get him right, he's just playing the good guy card now because it's on his best interests.
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Did anyone else think it was kind of weird how much time they spent developing that one Brood Mother, talking repeatedly about how she'd succeed Kerrigan someday or might challenge her for control of the swarm? I can't really figure out the point of all that. Why did Kerrigan give her intelligence? Or better yet, why did Blizzard give her intelligence? It makes me wonder if Kerrigan is either (a) Going to die (b) Return to human in Legacy of the Void.
Also, sorry if this is the wrong thread for this, couldn't find another.
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I'd expect him to backstab the protagonists, if I get him right, he's just playing the good guy card now because it's on his best interests.
The problem with being a turncoat is that, in the hands of a good writer, the longer it takes for the reveal, the more amazing the plot twist is, but in the hands of not-so-good writers, the longer it takes for the reveal, the more the plot holes tend to stack up. At this point, Valerian has given up too much to the protagonists and assumed too much risk to be working on self-interest alone...
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On March 15 2013 11:20 Warlock40 wrote:Show nested quote +I'd expect him to backstab the protagonists, if I get him right, he's just playing the good guy card now because it's on his best interests. The problem with being a turncoat is that, in the hands of a good writer, the longer it takes for the reveal, the more amazing the plot twist is, but in the hands of not-so-good writers, the longer it takes for the reveal, the more the plot holes tend to stack up. At this point, Valerian has given up too much to the protagonists and assumed too much risk to be working on self-interest alone...
Unless he knows that he could never have taken down his father alone.
Maybe Arcturus isn't the only one willing to sacrifice every piece on the board.
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People are zeroing in on Kerrigan throughout sending swarms to take out planets. Who knows how many people are there on those planets? They could be just purely military targets and have small populations. How many planets did we visit that had barely anyone on that? Plus in her final attack on Korhal she agreed to avoid civilians. I don't get where this "she killed millions" comes from. Yes she did kill millions. That was the queen of blades, the queen bitch of the universe who was one dimensional. In BW you only get ONE line where she shows anything other then power kill manipulate MOAR POWER! All of SC2 has been to develop her into a more complex character. You can argue that the causes of her evilness where lame (Amon taint) but she has been remade into a zerg leader whose sole purpose isn't "Lets kill everything". She has feelings and internal conflicts and some god damn humanity. The scene where she rescues Jim? I loved it, she looked very vulnerable when confronted with her choice. The old Kerrigan would have just killed everyone (and yes the Swarm was that powerful pre-SC2 but she pulled back and chilled on Char for years because she "was weary of slaughter" and she was prepping for the new threat). So no I do not mind taking a Zerg/human entity and giving them more human like qualities.
People getting upset that Jim changed his mind forget that he was given a vision of what the universe would end up like if she died so yea hes going to kill her to cause mass death? Good guy Jimmy will do what he can for the good because thats who he is (the fact that he has feelings for her is just extra). He even showed anger when she went back to the zerg and "was done" because he assumed she was back to the old queen bitch of the universe. He saw though that she WAS different then before, which is why he helped her. Hell she was doing what he was trying to do in WoL anyway, he just couldn't because he basically just had a small hit N run type force. They didn't show it but I bet Korhal isn't that bad off considering they just got attacked by the Zerg.
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My exact thought when I finished the campaign- "meh". I wasn't really excited, wasn't really disappointed... it was kind of what I expected the expansion to WoL to be. I thought the campaign itself had some fun missions and using an overpowered Kerrigan hero was actually a lot of fun for me. I was more let down by the WoL campaign only because it had the BW campaign to live up to. Once Ie kind of saw where sc2 wanted to be with the story with WoL, the hots campaign is about what I expected... There's my disorganized rant about it.
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Someone please make a 90 minute review video of the HotS story in the voice of an old homicidal man.
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On March 15 2013 11:34 Slaughter wrote:
In BW you only get ONE line where she shows anything other then power kill manipulate MOAR POWER!
A character demonstrating subterfuge and manipulation is anything but a one-dimensional figure.
Adding 'complexity' through concepts that don't actually fit isn't a good thing, it creates a cacophonous mishmash.
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Plus in her final attack on Korhal she agreed to avoid civilians.
That means nothing. That's about as weak an attempt to portray her in a good light as the scene where she spares some transports. I don't want to turn this into a political debate, but there are countless examples in recent history.
That was the queen of blades, the queen bitch of the universe who was one dimensional. In BW you only get ONE line where she shows anything other then power kill manipulate MOAR POWER!
That was not one dimensional at all. Her transition from a naive idealist who had a heart despite being a trained assassin into the greatest evil in the galaxy was an incredible character arc.
People getting upset that Jim changed his mind forget that he was given a vision of what the universe would end up like if she died so yea hes going to kill her to cause mass death?
He had changed his mind long before Zeratul set foot on the Hyperion. If anything, that vision gave him a harmony of interests - do the right thing and get the girl of your dreams! There's no dilemma anymore.
hey didn't show it but I bet Korhal isn't that bad off considering they just got attacked by the Zerg.
You know how in action movies, the heroes will engage in a semi-pointless car chase that, when you think about it, probably resulted in dozens of innocent bystanders getting killed, but since the camera never actually shows civilians getting killed, it's OK? It's sort of like that here. You can't fight your way into the heart of Dominion territory, land an invasion force that doesn't follow rules of engagement or respect Geneva conventions or whatever, on a densely populated, heavily urbanised planet, without racking up a genocidal body count.
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I actually enjoyed the campaign. Cheesy/bad story or whatever, story still does a good enough job of trying to tie the entire story together.
One main gripe have though is how insignificant duran turned out to be. I felt like the build up from sc1 would have led to something, but in the end, he just gets zapped and bitchslapped by kerrigan. Meh.
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On March 15 2013 11:53 Warlock40 wrote:That means nothing. That's about as weak an attempt to portray her in a good light as the scene where she spares some transports. I don't want to turn this into a political debate, but there are countless examples in recent history. Show nested quote +That was the queen of blades, the queen bitch of the universe who was one dimensional. In BW you only get ONE line where she shows anything other then power kill manipulate MOAR POWER! That was not one dimensional at all. Her transition from a naive idealist who had a heart despite being a trained assassin into the greatest evil in the galaxy was an incredible character arc. Show nested quote +People getting upset that Jim changed his mind forget that he was given a vision of what the universe would end up like if she died so yea hes going to kill her to cause mass death? He had changed his mind long before Zeratul set foot on the Hyperion. If anything, that vision gave him a harmony of interests - do the right thing and get the girl of your dreams! There's no dilemma anymore. Show nested quote +hey didn't show it but I bet Korhal isn't that bad off considering they just got attacked by the Zerg. You know how in action movies, the heroes will engage in a semi-pointless car chase that, when you think about it, probably resulted in dozens of innocent bystanders getting killed, but since the camera never actually shows civilians getting killed, it's OK? It's sort of like that here. You can't fight your way into the heart of Dominion territory, land an invasion force that doesn't follow rules of engagement or respect Geneva conventions or whatever, on a densely populated, heavily urbanised planet, without racking up a genocidal body count.
I don't think Jim had changed his mind at all until Zeratul came, he even seemed pissed at the assertion at first. And second Kerrigan IS the Swarm. If she agreed to do something she can easily manipulate her troops, she has like a mind-link to them all and can move them with precision. Im not going to sit here and say no civilians died but she delayed her attack and went after military targets. She even said "it would be harder because Arcturus would see that pattern in my movements". She doesn't have to raze every section of the city and if Valerian evacuated certain quarters 1st to provide a path for her *shrug* we don't know the layout of the city and troop singsongs. That is why they TELL us what she will be doing to point out the fact that she is going after military targets and striking hard and fast to get to the emperor. In a way it is like those car chases but those type of scenes are a known agreement between the people making the scene and the audience that it "worked out" for the background people even though its not likely that it did.
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On March 15 2013 10:30 Shady Sands wrote:
I'm still pissed my offer five years ago to help Blizzard write SC2's storyline went unanswered. I'm pretty confident I could have done a better job.
Not to demean your writing ability but I think anyone could have done a better job than Blizzard.
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On March 15 2013 07:33 mordk wrote:
There's one thing about all the complaints I don't really ever begin to understand. Why are people so upset that Jim loves Kerrigan and doesn't have the guts to kill her?
I seriously do not understand how anyone who played SC doesn't really know Jim was ALWAYS in love with Kerrigan. This was always as obvious as it gets. And I got that when I played SC, being like.. 14? It isn't weird at all for me that Blizzard took this course for the Raynor-Kerrigan plot line, it seems rather obvious to me that Jim wouldn't be so heartless to just kill her, since he is hopelessly in love with her and has always been.
I agree... Seriously some people seem to like to act sophisticated or something (like "Kerrigan + Raynor love story... eww, I'm too sophisticated and smart for this!"), and just want things to be "darker" for no reason at all.
First of all, Kerrigan needs to stay alive because of the prophecy, so Raynor would be dumb to try to kill Kerrigan. Second of all, remember that in Diablo III, Cain was killed off and Leah was also basically killed off (as she became Diablo and then killed)... Yet a lot actually hated that Cain was killed off (usually in discussions on what did D3 bring us? Well Cain was killed by a butterfly and Diablo became a girl).
Second, people seem to have a nostalgia-filled vision of the original SC's storyline. While it wasn't nearly as cheesy as this one, the truth is SC's storyline was pretty basic, and just as bad as this one. Blizzard's writers weren't geniuses then, and they aren't now. That doesn't stop me from enjoying it though, you just need to look at it for what it is and get off that high flying cloud you people live in. Please remember most of us were KIDS when we played starcraft. OF COURSE IT WAS IMPRESSIVE.
I agree. SC1BW was good but it's on positive point over SC2 is the fact that it doesn't have a lot of cheesy or corny dialogue. Also the UED was good. A lot of Mengsk fans say, he was the best part of SC! Why did they kill him off in HotS!
Except... Mengsk didn't do anything until SC2 really. Yes, he left Kerrigan behind and somehow managed to overthrow the Confederacy (which was in shambles already) but that was it.
Here's what the UED did:
+ Show Spoiler +Nah, the shining star of BW was totally the UED.
What did Mengsk do? Not much.
What did the UED do?
1. Show up and own everyone. This is even without all their high tech stuff is back on home, which Chris Metzen mentions in a Q&A (the UED is the most advanced, probably only second to the Xel'Naga).
2. Control a baby Overmind. Sure it wasn't perfect but they were close to controlling the Zerg.
3. The UED had interesting characters. Stukov and Dugalle (and whoever was the UED Captain guy) were fun and interesting characters. When it seemed Stukov was dying, it was a tearful moment once Dugalle realizes what he had done (when he finds out he should have listened to Stukov and Duran betrayed them).
My favorite part of SC1 and BW was when we were introduced to the UED. It wasn't black and white anymore or just a "good vs evil" now it's an FFA with some gray parts (The UED themselves, at least the organization, aren't "good guys" but Stukov and Dugalle were close... they were memorable and very likeable characters with a goal that you could understand).
The UED was so good that they had to be stopped with the combined powers of Raynor, the Protoss, Mengsk, and Kerrigan working together.
If it weren't for that, the UED would be owning it up as we speak.
Anyway, I agree that while the execution of the story may not be great (like the corny dialogue and how they show Raynor and Kerrigan's love, which can be done in a better way), I say the concept is good enough (minus "oh no, the Overmind wasn't a badass at all" plot twist in WoL) for the most part.
I honestly still don't get why people hated on WoL (besides the minor Overmind thing), it was good and enjoyable IMO.
The whole Kerrigan being deinfested instead of killed seems kind of silly TBH if that's the main reason people hated WoL. It's clear that Kerrigan and the Queen of Blades aren't even the same person.
Before Kerrigan became Queen of Blades, she actually hated that Mengsk kept using the Psi Emitter to kill off innocents in a planet (she said so herself in the SC1 campaign). Raynor only made that promise to kill Kerrigan when he only knew she was the Queen of Blades, when there's a chance that the Queen of Blades and Kerrigan may not be the same person, Raynor took the chance at saving her (plus the prophecy says they need her alive anyway, either that or the UED to come back and control an Overmind again).
I think either way, people would have hated SC2 because people seem to like to hate on things these days.
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When is Jim Raynor gonna cut his hair again?
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On March 15 2013 12:31 Gackt_ wrote:
When is Jim Raynor gonna cut his hair again?
OK, I thought it was just my poor eyesight, but I could have sworn that in the low-quality model portraits of SC:BW, Jim Raynor had a sort of buzz cut while Arcturus Mengsk had longer hair. Then in SC2, Raynor's got the long hair while Mengsk's hair is shortened. Really threw me off.
And yes, the UED is definitely my favourite faction in the SC universe. Yes, there was some bad writing involved, mostly due to the fact that all their exposition had to be shoe horned into eight missions (which resulted in inexplicable developments like DuGalle suddenly deciding to take out Stukov), but man oh man were they awesome. Think about it, if we accept Char as Zerg's official home base, the UED is the only faction in the game whose home planet and civilisation has stood intact.
Zerus? Rendered uninhabitable for who knows how long, before it again became populated by feral Zerg. Mar Sara? Infested by Zerg, burned by Protoss. Tarsonis? Invaded by Korhal, the Zerg, and the Protoss at the same time. Korhal? Nuked into oblivion by the Confederates. Taken over by the UED in a blitzkrieg campaign. Suffered a surprise attack by Raynor's Raiders. Devastated by Kerrigan, twice. Aiur? Still occupied by Zerg. Also invaded by the UED. Shakuras? Was on the verge of being infested by the Zerg until the Xel'Naga Temple was activated. Char? Occupied by first the UED, then later the Dominion. Every faction in SC has suffered massive losses.
What has the UED lost? An expeditionary fleet made up of mostly local conscripts. None of the other factions have even seen Earth. Forget the Xel'Naga, forget the Koreans, the UED is the true elephant in the room.
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On March 15 2013 12:37 Warlock40 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 12:31 Gackt_ wrote:
When is Jim Raynor gonna cut his hair again? OK, I thought it was just my poor eyesight, but I could have sworn that in the low-quality model portraits of SC:BW, Jim Raynor had a sort of buzz cut while Arcturus Mengsk had longer hair. Then in SC2, Raynor's got the long hair while Mengsk's hair is shortened. Really threw me off.
Well, I used to think Jim Raynor was bald back in the day, but looking through old concept art of his character in SC1, he actually had more hair than I realized and resembled the SC2 version more than I had assumed.
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On March 15 2013 12:37 Warlock40 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 12:31 Gackt_ wrote:
When is Jim Raynor gonna cut his hair again? OK, I thought it was just my poor eyesight, but I could have sworn that in the low-quality model portraits of SC:BW, Jim Raynor had a sort of buzz cut while Arcturus Mengsk had longer hair. Then in SC2, Raynor's got the long hair while Mengsk's hair is shortened. Really threw me off. And yes, the UED is definitely my favourite faction in the SC universe. Yes, there was some bad writing involved, mostly due to the fact that all their exposition had to be shoe horned into eight missions (which resulted in inexplicable developments like DuGalle suddenly deciding to take out Stukov), but man oh man were they awesome. Think about it, if we accept Char as Zerg's official home base, the UED is the only faction in the game whose home planet and civilisation has stood intact. Zerus? Rendered uninhabitable for who knows how long, before it again became populated by feral Zerg. Mar Sara? Infested by Zerg, burned by Protoss. Tarsonis? Invaded by Korhal, the Zerg, and the Protoss at the same time. Korhal? Nuked into oblivion by the Confederates. Taken over by the UED in a blitzkrieg campaign. Suffered a surprise attack by Raynor's Raiders. Devastated by Kerrigan, twice. Aiur? Still occupied by Zerg. Shakuras? Was on the verge of being infested by the Zerg until the Xel'Naga Temple was activated. Char? Occupied by first the UED, then later the Dominion. Every faction in SC has suffered massive losses. What has the UED lost? An expeditionary fleet made up of mostly local conscripts. None of the other factions have even seen Earth.
I liked the UED because they were the only competent and successful Terran force outside of Raynor's Raiders who have plot immunity with the SC2 writers.
They basically came into the sector and kicked everyone square in the teeth. Took over Dominion space, territory and resources, controlled the entire Zerg swarm who were basically an unstoppable hurricane for the previous campaigns, and did it all in a relatively short period of time as newcomers.
It made it even more satisfying when you break the UED's neck as Kerrigan.
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EPT
