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On March 05 2013 20:16 Mo0Rauder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 19:53 Godwrath wrote:On March 05 2013 19:52 Liquid`Ret wrote:On March 05 2013 17:41 Qikz wrote:On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How can there be nothing on the widow mine? What's wrong with the widow mine? (Just to let you know, I'm not whining or saying you're wrong or anything, just genuinly interested in what you think is wrong with it). Bio + 20 widow mines does not lose vs zerg Not even if you rush little flock of mutas into their clumps so the widow mines obliterate their units too ? Widow mines don't splash friendly units? Anyway, I still don't understand why Hellbat is a bio unit, it makes no sense at all. Maybe have an ability on the medevac that allows them to 'repair' for 2x energy cost of healig bio? I dunno just an idea. Still though, I predict in a few months we will all be in love with HoTS, and laughing at WoL.
Widow Mines splash friendly units. The mutalisk idea is still kind of awful, though
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I still don't understand why Hellbat is a bio unit, it makes no sense at all. Maybe have an ability on the medevac that allows them to 'repair' for 2x energy cost of healig bio? I dunno just an idea.
Still though, I predict in a few months we will all be in love with HoTS, and laughing at WoL.
edit: my stupidity removed.
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On March 05 2013 20:16 Mo0Rauder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 19:53 Godwrath wrote:On March 05 2013 19:52 Liquid`Ret wrote:On March 05 2013 17:41 Qikz wrote:On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How can there be nothing on the widow mine? What's wrong with the widow mine? (Just to let you know, I'm not whining or saying you're wrong or anything, just genuinly interested in what you think is wrong with it). Bio + 20 widow mines does not lose vs zerg Not even if you rush little flock of mutas into their clumps so the widow mines obliterate their units too ? Widow mines don't splash friendly units?
they do, they dont splash other widow mines, thats it
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On March 05 2013 20:18 Ooshmagoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 20:16 Mo0Rauder wrote:On March 05 2013 19:53 Godwrath wrote:On March 05 2013 19:52 Liquid`Ret wrote:On March 05 2013 17:41 Qikz wrote:On March 05 2013 16:29 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How can there be nothing on the widow mine? What's wrong with the widow mine? (Just to let you know, I'm not whining or saying you're wrong or anything, just genuinly interested in what you think is wrong with it). Bio + 20 widow mines does not lose vs zerg Not even if you rush little flock of mutas into their clumps so the widow mines obliterate their units too ? Widow mines don't splash friendly units? Anyway, I still don't understand why Hellbat is a bio unit, it makes no sense at all. Maybe have an ability on the medevac that allows them to 'repair' for 2x energy cost of healig bio? I dunno just an idea. Still though, I predict in a few months we will all be in love with HoTS, and laughing at WoL. Widow Mines splash friendly units. The mutalisk idea is still kind of awful, though
I have tons of other crazy ideas, but mostly rely on how useful would be ravens on midgame on zvt :d
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On March 05 2013 11:05 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 10:03 Iranon wrote:On March 05 2013 09:36 Cyro wrote:On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote:
its not that speedvacs are OP,
the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it
once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off. They are stuck on the cooldown so that for 12 seconds after the boost ends, they cannot boost again. There's your trade-off. Having medivacs that are faster than normal sometimes is strictly better than medivacs that are always normal speed. I don't think you understand what a trade-off is. Medivacs that are faster than normal some of the time are certainly worse than medivacs that can be faster than normal on-demand anytime you want, sure, but that's completely beside the point. It's an ability with no drawbacks. Whether or not you think it's too strong, you can't deny that fact. To make it even clearer, suppose the afterburners was a passive ability that just triggered on its own, completely at random and out of your control every so often. Those erratic medivacs are clearly worse than the current ones, but are just as clearly better than Wings of Liberty medivacs, albeit better in awkward ways. Where is the drawback to warpgate?
enemy can see what sort of unit you're warping in? and those units can be attacked while warping in. Admittedly I don't agree with the buff to not have those units warping in take extra dmg
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On March 05 2013 09:33 forumtext wrote:
Have not follow Hots before. Can someone please tell me if the game still 1 huge battle -> GG? I am still undecided if I should buy it.
Blizzard is trying to force the players to split their units across the map with things likes mine and better P-air-harras. But you can still do WoL all ins :/
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Thank god, that the Protoss air isn't gonna get destroyed and they understand the economical issues ^_^
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It's good that they're listening to the feedback and I think they're taking the correct action in waiting for more tournaments and experience to build up before further action. I just hope the next patch gives more diversity to zerg players without affecting too much balance.
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The strength of Protoss air, especially against Zerg.
We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered.
Does anyone else not see a problem with this whole statement? Being that Force Fields are already relatively strong versus early Zerg aggression, and the Protoss also gets the added benefit of the Mothership Core's defensive spells in HotS?
I mean, it's amusing to hear them say "lol no nr15 noob", but is there any real serious early aggression Zerg can apply without having any additional early-game tools? Especially when you take into account that not only is Skytoss obviously composed of air units against a ground-only early game, but Void Ray DPS was also buffed both against Roaches and Hydras.
I'm doubtful of this just by nature of the changes to Protoss and Zerg, but also curious if Blizzard's declaration that Zerg needs to be aggressive holds any merit. I only played a little bit of HotS and watched a bit of pro streams.
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On March 05 2013 20:18 Mo0Rauder wrote:
I still don't understand why Hellbat is a bio unit, it makes no sense at all. Maybe have an ability on the medevac that allows them to 'repair' for 2x energy cost of healig bio? I dunno just an idea.
Still though, I predict in a few months we will all be in love with HoTS, and laughing at WoL.
edit: my stupidity removed.
It would be way better to just make it mechanical again and tweak its health or damage instead of giving it unlogical tags.
I mean, what does this tag achieve? Archons do more damage to them and they can be sniped?!
Why is there still no try to go back to real time instead of blizzard time?
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What do you do on maps like akilon flats when protoss goes air and you can't punish it because of the way the map works and how easy it is to defend 3 bases for protoss, oh wait you just die late-game. Still can't believe they aren't going to nerf the void ray
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On March 05 2013 21:23 Tropical Bob wrote:Show nested quote +The strength of Protoss air, especially against Zerg.
We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered. Does anyone else not see a problem with this whole statement? Being that Force Fields are already relatively strong versus early Zerg aggression, and the Protoss also gets the added benefit of the Mothership Core's defensive spells in HotS? I mean, it's amusing to hear them say "lol no nr15 noob", but is there any real serious early aggression Zerg can apply without having any additional early-game tools? Especially when you take into account that not only is Skytoss obviously composed of air units against a ground-only early game, but Void Ray DPS was also buffed both against Roaches and Hydras. I'm doubtful of this just by nature of the changes to Protoss and Zerg, but also curious if Blizzard's declaration that Zerg needs to be aggressive holds any merit. I only played a little bit of HotS and watched a bit of pro streams.
No, most people agree with you that the match up will develop into protoss turtleing till getting perfect army composition and just kill the zerg then (like broodlord infestor). The thing is, give it time anyways, there are many things that could surprise us.
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Blizz incompetent as usual. Why wait until it becomes 100% obvious that a composition is broken if it's already 90% evident?
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On March 05 2013 21:37 Grumbels wrote:
Blizz incompetent as usual. Why wait until it becomes 100% obvious that a composition is broken if it's already 90% evident?
Because a 10 % fail margin is pretty big. I do however think that they should adress the fact that Voidrays and Tempests are two of the most boring units in the game.
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On March 05 2013 21:23 Tropical Bob wrote:Show nested quote +The strength of Protoss air, especially against Zerg.
We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered. Does anyone else not see a problem with this whole statement? Being that Force Fields are already relatively strong versus early Zerg aggression, and the Protoss also gets the added benefit of the Mothership Core's defensive spells in HotS? I mean, it's amusing to hear them say "lol no nr15 noob", but is there any real serious early aggression Zerg can apply without having any additional early-game tools? Especially when you take into account that not only is Skytoss obviously composed of air units against a ground-only early game, but Void Ray DPS was also buffed both against Roaches and Hydras. I'm doubtful of this just by nature of the changes to Protoss and Zerg, but also curious if Blizzard's declaration that Zerg needs to be aggressive holds any merit. I only played a little bit of HotS and watched a bit of pro streams.
Well, protoss in WoL had very few early game options vs competent zergs as well. I think the key will be whether zergs can find their version of immortal/sentry. Because without immortal/sentry or at least the threat of immortal sentry, PvZ would have been much much worse (a lot of the early timings that work for P at the end of WoL was due to Z being greedy to counter the immortal/sentry)
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On March 05 2013 09:04 Vindicare605 wrote:
Additionally, the top 30 for GM league is currently made up of 7 Zerg, 13 Terran, and 10 Protoss players, and the win/loss ratios for Heart of the Swarm tournament matches thus far have been solid for each race.
We feel the game’s balance is in a good place as we head into release, but that doesn’t mean we think it’s absolutely perfect.
I guess the problem I have with this statement is that, if they really use top 30 GM as a metric, then they're ok with a 2:1 racial imbalance. Not that I'd use top 30 GM as a metric, but that you'd think a distribution of 43%, 33%, 23% is 'in a good place' is beyond me.
As far as tournament results go, I'd be interested in knowing which tournaments they're looking at. I assumed the most recent high-level tournaments would be used (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IGN_ProLeague_Season_6/HotS_Invitational/Korean_Online_Qualifier or http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_MLG_Winter_Championship/Showdowns ) which doesn't appear to be the case or there are tournaments that I'm just not thinking about.
At a high-level, I guess I'm happy that they're not just going around and nerfing specific strategies into the ground because people bitch and moan. However, it'd be great to see them actually add additional tools to properly deal with the things that they've added to the game for each race.
Our general thinking on new units and abilities is that using them will always be learned faster than defending against them for obvious reasons. Because we’re already seeing some players defend against the new Medivacs extremely well, we definitely want to wait on this feedback to really make sure that it is in fact overpowered before making a change.
This is said about things like the Medivac but what about Swarm Hosts? Mind you, they have good use ZvP but if this is the general thinking on how new units/abilities function do they think Swarm Hosts will simply get worse over time? I surely hope not.
In the end I'm just confused by the logic presented by them.
edit: fixed link
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Yeah top30 gm is a poor metric, people are just fooling around and trying to figure things out, it's not exactly a competitive field.
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oh yeah I forgot to point out how ridiculous it appears to me that they arbitrarily sampled exactly the top 30 gm? What? All that makes me think is "and what are the numbers like outside of your very distinct sample size?" Makes me feel insulted, like they really did just try to come up with another round of formletter "ah ur whining and we're gonna wait cuz we're insufferably optimistic" and tossed on some bogus stats to top it off this time.
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On March 05 2013 21:33 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 21:23 Tropical Bob wrote:The strength of Protoss air, especially against Zerg.
We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered. Does anyone else not see a problem with this whole statement? Being that Force Fields are already relatively strong versus early Zerg aggression, and the Protoss also gets the added benefit of the Mothership Core's defensive spells in HotS? I mean, it's amusing to hear them say "lol no nr15 noob", but is there any real serious early aggression Zerg can apply without having any additional early-game tools? Especially when you take into account that not only is Skytoss obviously composed of air units against a ground-only early game, but Void Ray DPS was also buffed both against Roaches and Hydras. I'm doubtful of this just by nature of the changes to Protoss and Zerg, but also curious if Blizzard's declaration that Zerg needs to be aggressive holds any merit. I only played a little bit of HotS and watched a bit of pro streams. No, most people agree with you that the match up will develop into protoss turtleing till getting perfect army composition and just kill the zerg then (like broodlord infestor). The thing is, give it time anyways, there are many things that could surprise us.
Having watched some games at IEM, I don't think it will go the same way that BL-infestor went in WoL. Having watched YongHwa vs Nerchio, YongHwa had to fight 3-4 full Broodlord + other-zerg-non-sense armies on his way to the Mythic Skytoss army. He won the game with awesome control and some really well timed counter attacks, but never fully reached the promised land of unlimited storms, tempest and voidrays. The game was awesome and the battles were fun, with ony two colossi at any givin time.
Unlike the the BL, infestor army, protoss cannot build their high tech units in the middle of the map, protected by a mob of casters than can root the entire army while damaging it and making free units. I think protoss will aim for that promised land, but without fungle, it will be much harder to get to with a massive window where the opponent can reset the super army clock.
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EPT
