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On January 29 2013 04:44 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 03:54 TheMannerMule wrote:On January 29 2013 02:44 VirgilSC2 wrote:Honestly the first talkshow I've sat through in one sitting in a LONG time, it's extremely entertaining and informative. It's also really cool to see the Twitter conversations that pop up during the show as people not on the show want to share their view. On January 28 2013 12:59 TheMannerMule wrote:
I think a point that could have come up from the viability of team houses topic is:
-Do you have all serious players who are training for results and try to train them as a marketing tool to be marketed by the team (developing their personality, if they have one, and such).
OR
-Do you have a player or players who are not the best players but their marketing power/brand would be worth it, for instance a MaxiumusBlack type that is specifically called in for that purpose and nothing else. This is an extremely good point, I made an argument during the show in a Skype conversation: Especially in Korean dominated SC2, foreign players NEED the marketing aspect of the house desperately to stay relevant
[1/27/2013 10:39:38 PM] Alex "Virgil" Schwartz: I also think streaming is NOT the way to go around marketing the player, that's another fault of foreign team houses. They sit the players down, they practice, and stream, and that's it and they [the managers] have the gall to say "We're marketing our players within the house"
[1/27/2013 10:40:47 PM] Alex "Virgil" Schwartz: Streaming is, and should remain, a supplement for the player to directly increase their own pocket money while promoting themselves, and by proxy whatever organization they're currently representing. It's up to the organization to provide addition external promotion for the player and then by proxy the organization. MaximusBlack is a wonderful example of someone who is able to bring tremendous value to an organization through his media outreach, but at the same point the organization can't (or rather, shouldn't) directly profit from his streaming revenue, instead it's a much better approach to let him go through the regular streaming routine he's doing, while at the same time promoting his brand/sponsors and using that to indirectly bring the money to his team. Does it perhaps detract from the "super serious professional gaming house environment" to bring someone like that into the house? Sure. Does it make the venture that much more sustainable and bring that much more exposure, indirectly, to the house and the other players within that don't necessarily have the time to market themselves to that extent outside of streaming? Absolutely. Outside of KeSPA, which is backed by a conglomerate of major corporate sponsors, team houses won't be viable, at least as far as sitting players down in a house, shutting them away, and sending them to major LANs is concerned, for a LONG time. Any team house, be it eSF or Foreign, needs some form of constant media exposure to have a hope of keeping it a successful, attractive venture for sponsors regardless of direct player improvement. Sorry if this seems a little rambly, I'm wired up on a few cups of very strong tea and I've been up pretty much all night. I highlighted these sections because there is a pseudo rebuttal to that. MaximusBlack has had a history of associating with teams that have went on to disband for one reason or another (CheckSix and Quantic). From this, I think it might be easy to overestimate the marketing brand/power of MB (although he gets thousands of viewers watching his stream and hearing his obvious sponsor plugs). If I watch MaximusBlack's stream, am I likely to care enough to start learning about It'sGosu as a team? Not necessarily. One point that is not to be forgotten is a lot of the people who watch MaximusBlack's stream and his flagship operation of LifesAGlitchTV don't care about Starcraft at all. They just want to hear MB say ridiculous things or make somewhat offensive jokes. But to go back, it would be unfair to say that those two teams didn't have problems before MaximusBlack joined either team (especially Quantic). With marketing professional players, some organizations are clueless with how to do. Listing the major NA teams: EG, Axiom, Clarity Gaming, It'sGosu, Complexity and ROOT, only one of those teams do a fantastic job with marketing (no prizes on which team that is). For the rest of them, I know what players they have but I don't really feel like I know the players. Those teams should be getting those players out into the community, doing interviews, giving appearances on talk-shows like ThePulse (for the ones who can articulate their thoughts well), doing charity work (while wearing sponsored clothing), commentating at tournaments (like QxC at IEM Poland) or maybe even guest starring at smaller events (at a discount or even no salary at all). Most of those players probably won't have anything major happen on the pro circuit so a 'grass-roots' strategy is best employed. It doesn't even have to take up that much time, say three days a month. I will agree that streaming =/= marketing. I'm on my phone at the moment so I can't elaborate as much as I'd like, I'll come back and do that in a little; My point only stands true if you bring a player like MaximusBlack INTO the team house environment. Otherwise its a completely moot point. I have a lot to say in response, so I'll come back and either edit this post or post a new one when I get done with what I'm doing.
I don't think MaximusBlack ever really stayed in a team house environment much? I correct me if I'm wrong. I know he was one of the last people to know about Quantic disbanding.
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Hey,
Just wanted to say those were a great couple of shows. NASL has come a long way. Much innovation and production over the other SC2 shows.
Keep em coming !
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On January 29 2013 05:07 ShrieK wrote:I appreciate trying to offer a small amount of coverage for other games, it's great to see because SC2 is a bit insulated and self obsessed. I think you missed something important with the FGC though that would have been better to cover than anything else this week. EVO is having a fundraising drive for breast cancer research and to decide which game gets the last spot at EVO. I think this should have been covered because it shows gaming communities in a really positive light, and anyone could have found out about it just by looking at the front page of shoryuken.com http://evo.shoryuken.com/2013/01/25/evo-2013-donation-drive-standings-and-rule-update/Great show! edit: Talking about FPS was a really awesome touch too
This will definitely be hit in our next show. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Great show (:
The debate was definitely interesting! I wish team-houses were a lot more observed and researched from independent parties (as in they go in the house and try and qualify/quantify progress).
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On January 29 2013 05:57 Rocor wrote:
Hey,
Just wanted to say those were a great couple of shows. NASL has come a long way. Much innovation and production over the other SC2 shows.
Keep em coming !
Man Rocor, your quote is missing "a dynasty" in it.. T.T
Great show, looking forward to the next one ^_^
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Another great episode! Loved clutch's segment giving info on other esports games. Keep up the good work 
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On January 29 2013 05:49 TheMannerMule wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 04:44 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 29 2013 03:54 TheMannerMule wrote:On January 29 2013 02:44 VirgilSC2 wrote:Honestly the first talkshow I've sat through in one sitting in a LONG time, it's extremely entertaining and informative. It's also really cool to see the Twitter conversations that pop up during the show as people not on the show want to share their view. On January 28 2013 12:59 TheMannerMule wrote:
I think a point that could have come up from the viability of team houses topic is:
-Do you have all serious players who are training for results and try to train them as a marketing tool to be marketed by the team (developing their personality, if they have one, and such).
OR
-Do you have a player or players who are not the best players but their marketing power/brand would be worth it, for instance a MaxiumusBlack type that is specifically called in for that purpose and nothing else. This is an extremely good point, I made an argument during the show in a Skype conversation: Especially in Korean dominated SC2, foreign players NEED the marketing aspect of the house desperately to stay relevant
[1/27/2013 10:39:38 PM] Alex "Virgil" Schwartz: I also think streaming is NOT the way to go around marketing the player, that's another fault of foreign team houses. They sit the players down, they practice, and stream, and that's it and they [the managers] have the gall to say "We're marketing our players within the house"
[1/27/2013 10:40:47 PM] Alex "Virgil" Schwartz: Streaming is, and should remain, a supplement for the player to directly increase their own pocket money while promoting themselves, and by proxy whatever organization they're currently representing. It's up to the organization to provide addition external promotion for the player and then by proxy the organization. MaximusBlack is a wonderful example of someone who is able to bring tremendous value to an organization through his media outreach, but at the same point the organization can't (or rather, shouldn't) directly profit from his streaming revenue, instead it's a much better approach to let him go through the regular streaming routine he's doing, while at the same time promoting his brand/sponsors and using that to indirectly bring the money to his team. Does it perhaps detract from the "super serious professional gaming house environment" to bring someone like that into the house? Sure. Does it make the venture that much more sustainable and bring that much more exposure, indirectly, to the house and the other players within that don't necessarily have the time to market themselves to that extent outside of streaming? Absolutely. Outside of KeSPA, which is backed by a conglomerate of major corporate sponsors, team houses won't be viable, at least as far as sitting players down in a house, shutting them away, and sending them to major LANs is concerned, for a LONG time. Any team house, be it eSF or Foreign, needs some form of constant media exposure to have a hope of keeping it a successful, attractive venture for sponsors regardless of direct player improvement. Sorry if this seems a little rambly, I'm wired up on a few cups of very strong tea and I've been up pretty much all night. I highlighted these sections because there is a pseudo rebuttal to that. MaximusBlack has had a history of associating with teams that have went on to disband for one reason or another (CheckSix and Quantic). From this, I think it might be easy to overestimate the marketing brand/power of MB (although he gets thousands of viewers watching his stream and hearing his obvious sponsor plugs). If I watch MaximusBlack's stream, am I likely to care enough to start learning about It'sGosu as a team? Not necessarily. One point that is not to be forgotten is a lot of the people who watch MaximusBlack's stream and his flagship operation of LifesAGlitchTV don't care about Starcraft at all. They just want to hear MB say ridiculous things or make somewhat offensive jokes. But to go back, it would be unfair to say that those two teams didn't have problems before MaximusBlack joined either team (especially Quantic). With marketing professional players, some organizations are clueless with how to do. Listing the major NA teams: EG, Axiom, Clarity Gaming, It'sGosu, Complexity and ROOT, only one of those teams do a fantastic job with marketing (no prizes on which team that is). For the rest of them, I know what players they have but I don't really feel like I know the players. Those teams should be getting those players out into the community, doing interviews, giving appearances on talk-shows like ThePulse (for the ones who can articulate their thoughts well), doing charity work (while wearing sponsored clothing), commentating at tournaments (like QxC at IEM Poland) or maybe even guest starring at smaller events (at a discount or even no salary at all). Most of those players probably won't have anything major happen on the pro circuit so a 'grass-roots' strategy is best employed. It doesn't even have to take up that much time, say three days a month. I will agree that streaming =/= marketing. I'm on my phone at the moment so I can't elaborate as much as I'd like, I'll come back and do that in a little; My point only stands true if you bring a player like MaximusBlack INTO the team house environment. Otherwise its a completely moot point. I have a lot to say in response, so I'll come back and either edit this post or post a new one when I get done with what I'm doing. I don't think MaximusBlack ever really stayed in a team house environment much? I correct me if I'm wrong. I know he was one of the last people to know about Quantic disbanding.
No, as far as I'm aware MaximusBlack was never in the team-house, and I think that detracts from the value of acquiring someone like him.
Bringing a personality LIKE MaximusBlack into a team-house allows you to have this window into the team house that can be open at any time without being a completely static camera with no viewer interaction. What bringing a media personality like that into the house is allows the full-time pros to focus exclusively on their play, while simultaneously having this interactive, engaging personality not only convey himself and his team, but his players around him. Honestly I'd say stick him in the house, have him expose facets of the players' personalities ON STREAM that we don't necessarily see on THEIR stream, furthermore, use the same face to produce pre-recorded content from the house, or even teach them to cast as well. Buy him 4-5 jerseys, have him wear it every time he streams! (I say this because i know for a fact that maximusblack doesn't have a single one, considering I haven't gotten an order for it)
I guess the jist of it is, if you want to give your players the best training environment possible, you need someone else in the house that can be the face to the fans, and the window to more than just their play, and management is definitely not the way to go in that regard.
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I love this show, i will be getting a HD pass for season 5 purely because of how much i enjoyed Pulse.
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On January 29 2013 06:22 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 05:07 ShrieK wrote:I appreciate trying to offer a small amount of coverage for other games, it's great to see because SC2 is a bit insulated and self obsessed. I think you missed something important with the FGC though that would have been better to cover than anything else this week. EVO is having a fundraising drive for breast cancer research and to decide which game gets the last spot at EVO. I think this should have been covered because it shows gaming communities in a really positive light, and anyone could have found out about it just by looking at the front page of shoryuken.com http://evo.shoryuken.com/2013/01/25/evo-2013-donation-drive-standings-and-rule-update/Great show! edit: Talking about FPS was a really awesome touch too This will definitely be hit in our next show. Thanks for pointing it out.
Good job as host of the show. I think that is one thing that sets the show apart from others. You also seems more prepared than other hosts tend to be.
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This week's episode was hilarious, and the final segment with Frodan has so much potential for laughs that I'm looking forward to it next week as well (that reference to Supernova was cruel, but I had a really good laugh as I understood that it's all tongue-in-cheek).
But before that, I gotta start beasting it up in the gym.
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On January 29 2013 06:30 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 05:57 Rocor wrote:
Hey,
Just wanted to say those were a great couple of shows. NASL has come a long way. Much innovation and production over the other SC2 shows.
Keep em coming ! Man Rocor, your quote is missing "a dynasty" in it.. T.T Great show, looking forward to the next one ^_^
haha the original pirated copy of it in the dorms had that part missing from the intro... heh so classic
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NASL always brings the goods. Been following since season 2 and boy a lot has changed, but good change! I like how you guys created a platform for an eSports talk show, comparable to ones that are on ESPN. I know its been thrown out there already, its just so true. Also like the fact that everyone has a sound opinion on all of the topics being discussed. It's interesting listening in on the debates and participating alongside in the chat room is neat. Brilliant job with the adjustments that were made and keep doing what you're doing. It's working!
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Everything so far has been amazing but one thing in particular are the interviews you have done. The interviews you guys have done are very informative and very well done and are probably my personal favorite thing so far. Tyler and Ryan's insight were so interesting especially since Halo was once the flagship of MLG and was on TV for a little while.
Frodan not holding back at the end.
Also Mr.bitter doing a great job as the host.
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I've brought up this point when EG first opened their house and I'll bring it up again: I believe one of the biggest reasons why the Korean team houses produce quality players and play is that they have full-time dedicated coaches/trainers/etc whose sole job is to make sure the players practice, adhere to schedules, focus on weaknesses, etc.
There can be arguments abound regarding the independence of players, how players should have autonomy when training as opposed to regimented 'trainer looking over-your-shoulder' type of work. However, results speak for themselves. The Korean teams on the whole produce better quality players and play than do the rest of the SC playing world. I also do believe people like Stephano are outliers, as Gretorp mentioned, and that fact shouldn't be used as evidence to suggest that team houses won't work. In the long term, over a large number of players, a regimented and structured team house environment with coaching, with trainers, with proper care, will produce better players and ultimately better results.
I understand this is all secondary to what the real question was, and that was whether team houses are a good financial investment. The consensus on the show was that marketing, content production, etc, makes a house worth the investment, if done right. Results essentially become an added bonus. That's a road that personally I don't like. But then again, I'm in the minority: I enjoy starcraft for the quality of the games and not the personalities behind it.
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On January 29 2013 11:45 Bayyne wrote:
I've brought up this point when EG first opened their house and I'll bring it up again: I believe one of the biggest reasons why the Korean team houses produce quality players and play is that they have full-time dedicated coaches/trainers/etc whose sole job is to make sure the players practice, adhere to schedules, focus on weaknesses, etc.
There can be arguments abound regarding the independence of players, how players should have autonomy when training as opposed to regimented 'trainer looking over-your-shoulder' type of work. However, results speak for themselves. The Korean teams on the whole produce better quality players and play than do the rest of the SC playing world. I also do believe people like Stephano are outliers, as Gretorp mentioned, and that fact shouldn't be used as evidence to suggest that team houses won't work. In the long term, over a large number of players, a regimented and structured team house environment with coaching, with trainers, with proper care, will produce better players and ultimately better results.
I understand this is all secondary to what the real question was, and that was whether team houses are a good financial investment. The consensus on the show was that marketing, content production, etc, makes a house worth the investment, if done right. Results essentially become an added bonus. That's a road that personally I don't like. But then again, I'm in the minority: I enjoy starcraft for the quality of the games and not the personalities behind it.
The most interesting thing for me was how unanimous team management was when I approached them about it. Everybody said the same thing: marketing takes precedent over player development all day every day. It's how they pay the bills. It has to.
One day this could change. But for that to happen, teams have to be able to make money in other ways... Merchandise sales, ticket sales, profit sharing with events, (erm... maybe when events turn profits) etc.
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What makes EG's house unique among all the team houses is that it's actually a sustainable investment, that doesn't rely on a team having the absolute tip-top players in the world or repeat GSL Champions in order to remain viable.
Think of all the great Korean team houses that closed due to a general lack of tournament success or sponsorship. It's seems like the only Korean teams that can afford to exists are one's that consistently post big, BIG results.
While that kind of meritocracy and attrition might appeal to some die-hard purists, it's not a viable way to run a business. You can't have the financial stability of your business rest entirely on the reputations and accomplishments of one or two players. If Nestea or MVP didn't both go on incredible runs in the past year and half, would IM still exist? What would happen to the team if one of them got hit by a bus? Or got married?
The focus of the EG house clearly isn't training, it's content creation and delivery, which is used to help promote their sponsors. That's what the sponsors are paying for -- eyeballs on their products. Frankly, that's how sponsorship in ALL sports SHOULD work. There's a reason why the New York Knicks and Toronto Maple Leafs are worth hundreds of millions of dollars in spite of their lack of success ... they exist in big media markets, draw big crowds and leverage their brands well.
I'm sure EG players have some kind of streaming quota they have to, and willfully, maintain. It guarantees exposure for their sponsors and puts stream revenue in their pocket.
While player development is part of a team's responsibilities and obligations, I definitely think their model of running a team — focusing on viewership and sponsorship first, and winning second -- makes sense. I'm sure EG players want to post big results and be the best in the world, but I'm willing to bet they're also glad they don't have to place top 3 in every tournament to get paid a living wage.
TLDR; I think a team can't be expected to produce great players if the players and the team can't survive financially for the long haul.
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I really love this show. But I still can't wait till season 5!
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On January 29 2013 12:30 Defacer wrote:
What makes EG's house unique among all the team houses is that it's actually a sustainable investment, that doesn't rely on a team having the absolute tip-top players in the world or repeat GSL Champions in order to remain viable.
Think of all the great Korean team houses that closed due to a general lack of tournament success or sponsorship. It's seems like the only Korean teams that can afford to exists are one's that consistently post big, BIG results.
While that kind of meritocracy and attrition might appeal to some die-hard purists, it's not a viable way to run a business. You can't have the financial stability of your business rest entirely on the reputations and accomplishments of one or two players. If Nestea or MVP didn't both go on incredible runs in the past year and half, would IM still exist? What would happen to the team if one of them got hit by a bus? Or got married?
The focus of the EG house clearly isn't training, it's content creation and delivery, which is used to help promote their sponsors. That's what the sponsors are paying for -- eyeballs on their products. Frankly, that's how sponsorship in ALL sports SHOULD work. There's a reason why the New York Knicks and Toronto Maple Leafs are worth hundreds of millions of dollars in spite of their lack of success ... they exist in big media markets, draw big crowds and leverage their brands well.
I'm sure EG players have some kind of streaming quota they have to, and willfully, maintain. It guarantees exposure for their sponsors and puts stream revenue in their pocket.
While player development is part of a team's responsibilities and obligations, I definitely think their model of running a team — focusing on viewership and sponsorship first, and winning second -- makes sense. I'm sure EG players want to post big results and be the best in the world, but I'm willing to bet they're also glad they don't have to place top 3 in every tournament to get paid a living wage.
TLDR; I think a team can't be expected to produce great players if the players and the team can't survive financially for the long haul.
So why do we need a ridiculously gigantic house then? Its not like their media creation requires even half the property. They need to live extra comfortably to expose their B level acting? Thats like pampered movie stars without half the talent. Give EGs media producers the house they do all the work.
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On January 29 2013 12:51 GreyKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 12:30 Defacer wrote:
What makes EG's house unique among all the team houses is that it's actually a sustainable investment, that doesn't rely on a team having the absolute tip-top players in the world or repeat GSL Champions in order to remain viable.
Think of all the great Korean team houses that closed due to a general lack of tournament success or sponsorship. It's seems like the only Korean teams that can afford to exists are one's that consistently post big, BIG results.
While that kind of meritocracy and attrition might appeal to some die-hard purists, it's not a viable way to run a business. You can't have the financial stability of your business rest entirely on the reputations and accomplishments of one or two players. If Nestea or MVP didn't both go on incredible runs in the past year and half, would IM still exist? What would happen to the team if one of them got hit by a bus? Or got married?
The focus of the EG house clearly isn't training, it's content creation and delivery, which is used to help promote their sponsors. That's what the sponsors are paying for -- eyeballs on their products. Frankly, that's how sponsorship in ALL sports SHOULD work. There's a reason why the New York Knicks and Toronto Maple Leafs are worth hundreds of millions of dollars in spite of their lack of success ... they exist in big media markets, draw big crowds and leverage their brands well.
I'm sure EG players have some kind of streaming quota they have to, and willfully, maintain. It guarantees exposure for their sponsors and puts stream revenue in their pocket.
While player development is part of a team's responsibilities and obligations, I definitely think their model of running a team — focusing on viewership and sponsorship first, and winning second -- makes sense. I'm sure EG players want to post big results and be the best in the world, but I'm willing to bet they're also glad they don't have to place top 3 in every tournament to get paid a living wage.
TLDR; I think a team can't be expected to produce great players if the players and the team can't survive financially for the long haul.
So why do we need a ridiculously gigantic house then? Its not like their media creation requires even half the property. They need to live extra comfortably to expose their B level acting? Thats like pampered movie stars without half the talent. Give EGs media producers the house they do all the work.
Part of the reason they have the house in Arizona was they got it when the economy tanked and it was dirt cheap. It's probably one the key factors that makes having the house viable.
I doubt they would try to have a house in California or New York or near any major city.
And food, room and board is not really 'pampering'. Actually, having roommates kind of suck. But free food!
Edit: To answer your question, there is efficiency gained from having everyone in the same room/area and working in the same place. It's a live/work office, essentially. I'm not sure if they're saving that much money. Then again, maybe it's cheaper to have players split living expenses and cover the cost than pay them higher salaries.
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EPT
