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On September 12 2013 00:46 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 00:37 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 00:33 keglu wrote:
Even outside of proscene an only based on ladder:
There is trend since beggining of sc2 where Terran population is low league heavy, Zerg opposite and Protoss in the middle.
For me there are 2 possible reasons of that
- either worse players in general chose to play Terran or it's harder to be successful as Terran (or combination of both)
Take your pick. Or people like space aliens, warping in units or think that zerg looks dope. People play elves all the time in D&D and WoW had more Alliance than Horde until they added Blood Elves to horde. That doesn't mean elves are OP in both table top RPGs and WoW. It just means people like elves. Sorry but this is not about amount of players playing race but how sucessfull is average player of particular race Whole WoL there were more Terran players than Zerg players btw.
Yes, I know that, but people keep following the reasoning that people gravitate away from terran because it is the "hardest race". I am pointing out that there are many other reasons why people might choose the other races over terran, professional player or otherwise. The success rate on the professional level falls under a similar line.
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On September 12 2013 00:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 00:33 keglu wrote:
Even outside of proscene an only based on ladder:
There is trend since beggining of sc2 where Terran population is low league heavy, Zerg opposite and Protoss in the middle.
For me there are 2 possible reasons of that
- either worse players in general chose to play Terran or it's harder to be successful as Terran (or combination of both)
Take your pick. Or people like space aliens, warping in units or think that zerg looks dope.
Honestly it takes like 5 minutes on this forum to realize that terran is the most liked race...
I don't know why you cling on so much to this idea that all the races are equally hard to play mechanically, I've seen you do it in the past. All races are hard, that's a given. But they aren't hard in the same fashion, their strengths and weaknesses aren't the same (and weren't meant to be, imo).
I agree with those who argue that the hardship of terran is mechanics, but I don't think that reflects negatively on protoss or zerg, whose hardship lies elsewhere. If anything I think the biggest problem it caused is that it created the superiority complex that a ton of terran players have now, in that they think they should basically win every game because their race takes more skill.
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On September 12 2013 00:55 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 00:37 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 00:33 keglu wrote:
Even outside of proscene an only based on ladder:
There is trend since beggining of sc2 where Terran population is low league heavy, Zerg opposite and Protoss in the middle.
For me there are 2 possible reasons of that
- either worse players in general chose to play Terran or it's harder to be successful as Terran (or combination of both)
Take your pick. Or people like space aliens, warping in units or think that zerg looks dope. Honestly it takes like 5 minutes on this forum to realize that terran is the most liked race... I don't know why you cling on so much to this idea that all the races are equally hard to play mechanically, I've seen you do it in the past. All races are hard, that's a given. But they aren't hard in the same fashion, their strengths and weaknesses aren't the same (and weren't meant to be, imo). I agree with those who argue that the hardship of terran is mechanics, but I don't think that reflects negatively on protoss or zerg, whose hardship lies elsewhere. If anything I think the biggest problem it caused is that it created the superiority complex that a ton of terran players have now, in that they think they should basically win every game because their race takes more skill.
It also just takes 5mins to realize that Terran is overproportionally represented on Teamliquid. (I guess due to the BW background of Teamliquid)
Plansix is right, the logical assumption is to suppose that the races are equally hard if the game is balanced. I'd even go so far as to say that if that is not the case the game is imbalanced, as we will never reach the skill ceiling and therefore a race "being harder" means that with the same amount of skill a player of a different race would achieve more and therefore perform better on average.
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On September 12 2013 00:55 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 00:37 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 00:33 keglu wrote:
Even outside of proscene an only based on ladder:
There is trend since beggining of sc2 where Terran population is low league heavy, Zerg opposite and Protoss in the middle.
For me there are 2 possible reasons of that
- either worse players in general chose to play Terran or it's harder to be successful as Terran (or combination of both)
Take your pick. Or people like space aliens, warping in units or think that zerg looks dope. Honestly it takes like 5 minutes on this forum to realize that terran is the most liked race... I don't know why you cling on so much to this idea that all the races are equally hard to play mechanically, I've seen you do it in the past. All races are hard, that's a given. But they aren't hard in the same fashion, their strengths and weaknesses aren't the same (and weren't meant to be, imo). I agree with those who argue that the hardship of terran is mechanics, but I don't think that reflects negatively on protoss or zerg, whose hardship lies elsewhere. If anything I think the biggest problem it caused is that it created the superiority complex that a ton of terran players have now, in that they think they should basically win every game because their race takes more skill.
I agree with you that terrans has some of the most fast paced, micro required during largest engagements and the difficulties for the other race are in other parts of the battle or games. The problem is that people narrow their view on mechanics to exactly what they think is hardest about the game and neglect other areas that may be more difficult for the other races. They diminish what is difficult for others, while feeling superior about their own skills and assume they lost because their race is harder than the others. There is a difference between saying "this part of the game requires a lot of micro on the part of terran" and saying "there are fewer foreign terran pros because terran is harder than all the other races(except if your Korean, then it is fine)" The latter is the one I am arguing against.
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On September 12 2013 01:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 00:55 Nebuchad wrote:On September 12 2013 00:37 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 00:33 keglu wrote:
Even outside of proscene an only based on ladder:
There is trend since beggining of sc2 where Terran population is low league heavy, Zerg opposite and Protoss in the middle.
For me there are 2 possible reasons of that
- either worse players in general chose to play Terran or it's harder to be successful as Terran (or combination of both)
Take your pick. Or people like space aliens, warping in units or think that zerg looks dope. Honestly it takes like 5 minutes on this forum to realize that terran is the most liked race... I don't know why you cling on so much to this idea that all the races are equally hard to play mechanically, I've seen you do it in the past. All races are hard, that's a given. But they aren't hard in the same fashion, their strengths and weaknesses aren't the same (and weren't meant to be, imo). I agree with those who argue that the hardship of terran is mechanics, but I don't think that reflects negatively on protoss or zerg, whose hardship lies elsewhere. If anything I think the biggest problem it caused is that it created the superiority complex that a ton of terran players have now, in that they think they should basically win every game because their race takes more skill. It also just takes 5mins to realize that Terran is overproportionally represented on Teamliquid. (I guess due to the BW background of Teamliquid) Plansix is right, the logical assumption is to suppose that the races are equally hard if the game is balanced. I'd even go so far as to say that if that is not the case the game is imbalanced, as we will never reach the skill ceiling and therefore a race "being harder" means that with the same amount of skill a player of a different race would achieve more and therefore perform better on average.
Protoss is my hardest race to play.
Mechanically they are easy, but I have the toughest time getting timings, positioning, and starsense right when playing toss. Too often I make too many of one unit, not enough of another, and oh no there goes my colossus.
Terran I find the easiest, but that's because I find drop play intuitive.
Just because a race is harder mechanically to play does not mean that they are actually *harder* to play. They just require a different skillset.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
An EU Terran is playing in a few minutes; I hope you guys are watching instead of arguing
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I think because the reason why Terran more suits the Koreans is because they practice harder and as the others said coz of having higher APM which they got from years of years training BW hardcore. Also I remember NoNy said before that when he joined eSTRO that they forced him to change his hotkeys so I guess they also proficient on managing their hotkeys.
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Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player
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On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player
"Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier."
As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest.
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You're being overly defensive by answering to posts like that. Almost make it seem like Terran-hardest advocates have a point.
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On September 12 2013 03:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player "Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier." As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest.
He said he plays Random... not Terran exclusively. I've had the same experience as him while playing Random and finding Terran to be much much more difficult than Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg. Right when HoTs came out I was able to maintain a 70% winrate as Protoss (while playing random, my Terran was ~55%, Zerg was ~30%, ZvZ was a complete bitch TBH) through the first season. I hadn't played Protoss at all through the last 6 months of WoL yet I still struggled more with Terran despite playing similarly skilled opponents. Sure this is just my own personal testimony, but when Random players consistently have the same experience it might be an indication of some truth.
Also, Terran was widely accepted to be the hardest race in BW (while still performing well at the top KeSPA level). SC2 Terran is the closest of the 3 races to it's BW counterpart while Protoss now has warpgates and Zerg has the Queen Inject mechanic. Logically it follows that Terran is still the hardest race.. no?
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On September 12 2013 03:39 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 03:29 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player "Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier." As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest. He said he plays Random... not Terran exclusively. I've had the same experience as him while playing Random and finding Terran to be much much more difficult than Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg. Right when HoTs came out I was able to maintain a 70% winrate as Protoss (while playing random, my Terran was ~55%, Zerg was ~30%, ZvZ was a complete bitch TBH) through the first season. I hadn't played Protoss at all through the last 6 months of WoL yet I still struggled more with Terran despite playing similarly skilled opponents. Sure this is just my own personal testimony, but when Random players consistently have the same experience it might be an indication of some truth.
There is a post that is directly above this where a terran player says they find protoss to be harder to play. Using confirmation bias to prove a point does not make it fact or based on good evidence. Finding a bunch of people who all say "Yeah, I play random and I think terran is hardest" only shows that you were able to find a group of people that agree with you. Its not like you were actively seeking out people who found the other races to be more difficult. And using phrases like "I was struggling to win against similarly skilled opponents" is not proof that your opponent was of equal skill.
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On September 12 2013 03:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 03:39 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:29 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player "Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier." As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest. He said he plays Random... not Terran exclusively. I've had the same experience as him while playing Random and finding Terran to be much much more difficult than Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg. Right when HoTs came out I was able to maintain a 70% winrate as Protoss (while playing random, my Terran was ~55%, Zerg was ~30%, ZvZ was a complete bitch TBH) through the first season. I hadn't played Protoss at all through the last 6 months of WoL yet I still struggled more with Terran despite playing similarly skilled opponents. Sure this is just my own personal testimony, but when Random players consistently have the same experience it might be an indication of some truth. There is a post that is directly above this where a terran player says they find protoss to be harder to play. Using confirmation bias to prove a point does not make it fact or based on good evidence. Finding a bunch of people who all say "Yeah, I play random and I think terran is hardest" only shows that you were able to find a group of people that agree with you. Its not like you were actively seeking out people who found the other races to be more difficult. And using phrases like "I was struggling to win against similarly skilled opponents" is not proof that your opponent was of equal skill.
If the matchmaking system is working properly, and I am playing on the same account then yes, the opponents should be of "equal skill". And I urge the Random players out there that think P/Z are much harder than T to come forward and speak up. Maybe none of them post on TL though, crazy coincidence.
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It is because foreigners like flashy aliens and oversized insectoids, because incontrol and Idra do not play Terran and becuase it's just that way god damn it. BRB just going to stick my head back in the sand.
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On September 12 2013 03:50 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 03:48 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:39 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:29 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player "Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier." As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest. He said he plays Random... not Terran exclusively. I've had the same experience as him while playing Random and finding Terran to be much much more difficult than Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg. Right when HoTs came out I was able to maintain a 70% winrate as Protoss (while playing random, my Terran was ~55%, Zerg was ~30%, ZvZ was a complete bitch TBH) through the first season. I hadn't played Protoss at all through the last 6 months of WoL yet I still struggled more with Terran despite playing similarly skilled opponents. Sure this is just my own personal testimony, but when Random players consistently have the same experience it might be an indication of some truth. There is a post that is directly above this where a terran player says they find protoss to be harder to play. Using confirmation bias to prove a point does not make it fact or based on good evidence. Finding a bunch of people who all say "Yeah, I play random and I think terran is hardest" only shows that you were able to find a group of people that agree with you. Its not like you were actively seeking out people who found the other races to be more difficult. And using phrases like "I was struggling to win against similarly skilled opponents" is not proof that your opponent was of equal skill. If the matchmaking system is working properly, and I am playing on the same account then yes, the opponents should be of "equal skill". And I urge the Random players out there that think P/Z are much harder than T to come forward and speak up. Maybe none of them post on TL though, crazy coincidence.
Have you ever considered that you just suck with zerg, are ok with terran and are pretty great with protoss? I mean, I am a terrible zerg and I don't like how their units control or the way their production works. People focus to much on "which race is harder" as opposed to "I am best with this race because it has BLANK feature or style."
The simple fact is that Korea players are not magic or have special APM powers that allow them to play better. Thorzain is not magic either and he is doing pretty well today.
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On September 12 2013 04:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 03:50 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:48 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:39 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:29 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player "Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier." As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest. He said he plays Random... not Terran exclusively. I've had the same experience as him while playing Random and finding Terran to be much much more difficult than Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg. Right when HoTs came out I was able to maintain a 70% winrate as Protoss (while playing random, my Terran was ~55%, Zerg was ~30%, ZvZ was a complete bitch TBH) through the first season. I hadn't played Protoss at all through the last 6 months of WoL yet I still struggled more with Terran despite playing similarly skilled opponents. Sure this is just my own personal testimony, but when Random players consistently have the same experience it might be an indication of some truth. There is a post that is directly above this where a terran player says they find protoss to be harder to play. Using confirmation bias to prove a point does not make it fact or based on good evidence. Finding a bunch of people who all say "Yeah, I play random and I think terran is hardest" only shows that you were able to find a group of people that agree with you. Its not like you were actively seeking out people who found the other races to be more difficult. And using phrases like "I was struggling to win against similarly skilled opponents" is not proof that your opponent was of equal skill. If the matchmaking system is working properly, and I am playing on the same account then yes, the opponents should be of "equal skill". And I urge the Random players out there that think P/Z are much harder than T to come forward and speak up. Maybe none of them post on TL though, crazy coincidence. Have you ever considered that you just suck with zerg, are ok with terran and are pretty great with protoss? I mean, I am a terrible zerg and I don't like how their units control or the way their production works. People focus to much on "which race is harder" as opposed to "I am best with this race because it has BLANK feature or style." The simple fact is that Korea players are not magic or have special APM powers that allow them to play better. Thorzain is not magic either and he is doing pretty well today.
Well my ZvZ definitely sucked, it was literally 10% while my ZvT was amazing and ZvP was like 40-45%.
Also it goes beyond just winrates... just play the 3 races back to back and you can tell lol..
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On September 12 2013 04:05 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 04:03 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:50 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:48 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:39 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:29 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player "Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier." As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest. He said he plays Random... not Terran exclusively. I've had the same experience as him while playing Random and finding Terran to be much much more difficult than Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg. Right when HoTs came out I was able to maintain a 70% winrate as Protoss (while playing random, my Terran was ~55%, Zerg was ~30%, ZvZ was a complete bitch TBH) through the first season. I hadn't played Protoss at all through the last 6 months of WoL yet I still struggled more with Terran despite playing similarly skilled opponents. Sure this is just my own personal testimony, but when Random players consistently have the same experience it might be an indication of some truth. There is a post that is directly above this where a terran player says they find protoss to be harder to play. Using confirmation bias to prove a point does not make it fact or based on good evidence. Finding a bunch of people who all say "Yeah, I play random and I think terran is hardest" only shows that you were able to find a group of people that agree with you. Its not like you were actively seeking out people who found the other races to be more difficult. And using phrases like "I was struggling to win against similarly skilled opponents" is not proof that your opponent was of equal skill. If the matchmaking system is working properly, and I am playing on the same account then yes, the opponents should be of "equal skill". And I urge the Random players out there that think P/Z are much harder than T to come forward and speak up. Maybe none of them post on TL though, crazy coincidence. Have you ever considered that you just suck with zerg, are ok with terran and are pretty great with protoss? I mean, I am a terrible zerg and I don't like how their units control or the way their production works. People focus to much on "which race is harder" as opposed to "I am best with this race because it has BLANK feature or style." The simple fact is that Korea players are not magic or have special APM powers that allow them to play better. Thorzain is not magic either and he is doing pretty well today. Well my ZvZ definitely sucked, it was literally 10% while my ZvT was amazing and ZvP was like 40-45%. Also it goes beyond just winrates... just play the 3 races back to back and you can tell lol..
My ZvZ sucks, my TvZ sucks, and my PvAll sucks
What does that tell you?
The answer is nothing, because its anecdotal evidence.
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On September 12 2013 03:51 Swift118 wrote:
It is because foreigners like flashy aliens and oversized insectoids, because incontrol and Idra do not play Terran and becuase it's just that way god damn it. BRB just going to stick my head back in the sand.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but I'm sure there are quite a few players out there whose race of choice is due to their favorite players and wanting to emulate them. Or based on lore or some other aesthetic preference. After all, when people create threads on "What race should I choose to start", many people reply with "Choose the one that you like the best; play to have fun- not just to win". And rightly so. And you can certainly be master or GM level and still be playing to have fun.
Obviously, many players also choose the race they're best with, but that's not the only criterion that many people consider.
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And what if Terran truly is harder to play? We real men (real Terran players, that is) wouldn't have it any other way.
Edit: I guess that it's really weird to me that Zerg and Protoss would be bothered by us thinking Terran is harder. I'm sure they think their race is harder too, and that's all good. Keeps the competitive spirit alive, even out of the game :D
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All those skill-level blah blah arguments just don't have evidence. As far as I remember, foreign T's did not perform well even during the early WoL period when T was objectively OP and every T would pick up easy wins over Z/P in Korea. Watch games from that era and how silly they look.
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EPT
