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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 12 2013 22:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 22:30 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 12 2013 22:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Let's break it down. AT CURRENT META, a Terran GM has mastery of:
- timing attacks
- pick drop micro,
- timing attack with workers
- manage slow speed flying casters into main army
- integrate flying transport into main army, only this year used by Protoss pros.
- maintain ratios of different units to beat opposing composition
- multi prong.
- spread units for optimum efficency
- remember timings for upgrades while maintaining the above.
Some of the above are only recently being exploited by their respective race, e.g. Maintaining a warp prism with main army for both harass, multiprong and resuppling the army.
Edit: managing a detector with the army which includes having enough OCs for multiple scans. Flying transport into main army is fucking ranged medic that has capability of dropship with ability to have short time phoenix speed. Managing slow speed flying casters.... GM terrans make ravens? Timings for upgrades... ehm, i believe with traditional hotkey spam all game long, you can easily catch moment they complete and only real timing you need is timing for armory (around 50% of +1 IIRC). Sorry for being rude, i just wonder about those 3. Also, multi prong is not really hard, if you have game sense and have an idea when enemies army is in other place. After all i am yet to find a terran microing on 2 fronts. timing attacks with workers.... 'Damn, he has storm in research, brb killing him' spread of units for max efficiency is common thing in mirrors too, especially roach wars. pick drop micro is just fancy thing, that is not really used often. Terran does not have the luxury of producing 18 ultralisks in a single button spam by being on top of their injects,no, a Terran has to actually PLAN their transition.
Zerg does not have a luxury of producing 18 useful ultralisks either.
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On September 12 2013 22:42 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 22:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On September 12 2013 22:30 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 12 2013 22:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Let's break it down. AT CURRENT META, a Terran GM has mastery of:
- timing attacks
- pick drop micro,
- timing attack with workers
- manage slow speed flying casters into main army
- integrate flying transport into main army, only this year used by Protoss pros.
- maintain ratios of different units to beat opposing composition
- multi prong.
- spread units for optimum efficency
- remember timings for upgrades while maintaining the above.
Some of the above are only recently being exploited by their respective race, e.g. Maintaining a warp prism with main army for both harass, multiprong and resuppling the army.
Edit: managing a detector with the army which includes having enough OCs for multiple scans. Flying transport into main army is fucking ranged medic that has capability of dropship with ability to have short time phoenix speed. Managing slow speed flying casters.... GM terrans make ravens? Timings for upgrades... ehm, i believe with traditional hotkey spam all game long, you can easily catch moment they complete and only real timing you need is timing for armory (around 50% of +1 IIRC). Sorry for being rude, i just wonder about those 3. Also, multi prong is not really hard, if you have game sense and have an idea when enemies army is in other place. After all i am yet to find a terran microing on 2 fronts. timing attacks with workers.... 'Damn, he has storm in research, brb killing him' spread of units for max efficiency is common thing in mirrors too, especially roach wars. pick drop micro is just fancy thing, that is not really used often. Terran does not have the luxury of producing 18 ultralisks in a single button spam by being on top of their injects,no, a Terran has to actually PLAN their transition. Zerg does not have a luxury of producing 18 useful ultralisks either.
They do if they have won the game at that point and have way to much money and no army. But that 108 supply will be pretty cumbersome to use.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 12 2013 22:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 22:42 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 12 2013 22:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On September 12 2013 22:30 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 12 2013 22:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Let's break it down. AT CURRENT META, a Terran GM has mastery of:
- timing attacks
- pick drop micro,
- timing attack with workers
- manage slow speed flying casters into main army
- integrate flying transport into main army, only this year used by Protoss pros.
- maintain ratios of different units to beat opposing composition
- multi prong.
- spread units for optimum efficency
- remember timings for upgrades while maintaining the above.
Some of the above are only recently being exploited by their respective race, e.g. Maintaining a warp prism with main army for both harass, multiprong and resuppling the army.
Edit: managing a detector with the army which includes having enough OCs for multiple scans. Flying transport into main army is fucking ranged medic that has capability of dropship with ability to have short time phoenix speed. Managing slow speed flying casters.... GM terrans make ravens? Timings for upgrades... ehm, i believe with traditional hotkey spam all game long, you can easily catch moment they complete and only real timing you need is timing for armory (around 50% of +1 IIRC). Sorry for being rude, i just wonder about those 3. Also, multi prong is not really hard, if you have game sense and have an idea when enemies army is in other place. After all i am yet to find a terran microing on 2 fronts. timing attacks with workers.... 'Damn, he has storm in research, brb killing him' spread of units for max efficiency is common thing in mirrors too, especially roach wars. pick drop micro is just fancy thing, that is not really used often. Terran does not have the luxury of producing 18 ultralisks in a single button spam by being on top of their injects,no, a Terran has to actually PLAN their transition. Zerg does not have a luxury of producing 18 useful ultralisks either. They do if they have won the game at that point and have way to much money and no army. But that 108 supply will be pretty cumbersome to use.
That's what i meant under useful. Because there are 2 cases you can afford to make 18 ultras:
A. You have won the game.
B. You play turtling player (be it mech or toss) and ultras are one of the worst thing to do against turtling player, Kwanro approves.
In case A. 140 banelings will be probably more useful and fancy. In case B. There is a unit named swarm host and there is a unit named brood lord.
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On September 12 2013 21:15 VieuxSinge wrote:
Lucrifron, the best Terran foreigner, was kicked off of the EU WCS by a non-pro Zerg player.
This is how hard it is for Terran foreigners today.
And NaNiwa, the best Protoss foreigner was kicked off EU WCS by TargA. Going by single instances like this is pointless, anyone can have a bad day regardless of race.
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I agree with what most people are saying, but I also want to bring up a point, which is the mindset of foreigners. For some reason foreigners think they are being "noble" because they don't cheese as often as koreans. I haven't seen an 11/11 rax in at least a year, that said I'm not the most consistent watcher, so I may have just missed those games. I mean, some of the terrans I talk to don't even know about proxy marauder, 11/11 rax etc. Albeit, these are diamond/low masters players, but it's really surprising. On NA, I win about 80% of the games I play because I just 11/11 rax. No one is prepared for it, and no one knows how to properly respond to it. I think terran has the most potential for cheese in TvZ and TvT. In TvP, god help us all.
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On September 13 2013 00:29 9-BiT wrote:
I agree with what most people are saying, but I also want to bring up a point, which is the mindset of foreigners. For some reason foreigners think they are being "noble" because they don't cheese as often as koreans. I haven't seen an 11/11 rax in at least a year, that said I'm not the most consistent watcher, so I may have just missed those games. I mean, some of the terrans I talk to don't even know about proxy marauder, 11/11 rax etc. Albeit, these are diamond/low masters players, but it's really surprising. On NA, I win about 80% of the games I play because I just 11/11 rax. No one is prepared for it, and no one knows how to properly respond to it. I think terran has the most potential for cheese in TvZ and TvT. In TvP, god help us all.
Have you read (ex fnatic) Rain's latest blog?
He talks about how he cheesed a lot because it was the way to win certain games, not because it's just an easy win. Sure there's a lot of risk in doing cheese, but if it works you just win by default most of the time, and that's usually worth the risk. Honestly I like watching all-ins and cheeses just as much if not more than macro games. Games where people win with cheese or all-ins are strategic wins as opposed to macro games which are pretty much all mechanics.
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On September 13 2013 00:37 Ettick wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 00:29 9-BiT wrote:
I agree with what most people are saying, but I also want to bring up a point, which is the mindset of foreigners. For some reason foreigners think they are being "noble" because they don't cheese as often as koreans. I haven't seen an 11/11 rax in at least a year, that said I'm not the most consistent watcher, so I may have just missed those games. I mean, some of the terrans I talk to don't even know about proxy marauder, 11/11 rax etc. Albeit, these are diamond/low masters players, but it's really surprising. On NA, I win about 80% of the games I play because I just 11/11 rax. No one is prepared for it, and no one knows how to properly respond to it. I think terran has the most potential for cheese in TvZ and TvT. In TvP, god help us all. Have you read (ex fnatic) Rain's latest blog? He talks about how he cheesed a lot because it was the way to win certain games, not because it's just an easy win. Sure there's a lot of risk in doing cheese, but if it works you just win by default most of the time, and that's usually worth the risk. Honestly I like watching all-ins and cheeses just as much if not more than macro games. Games where people win with cheese or all-ins are strategic wins as opposed to macro games which are pretty much all mechanics.
I haven't I definitely should. I definitely agree with what you're saying though. If you take a look at the most successful korean terrans in starcraft (1 and 2), you will definitely see that they started out as gimmicky cheesy players. You don't see this with other races. MKP, FlaSh, etc. With other races, you get some weird player, like horang2, who can cheese but not much else. For some reason terran allows cheeses to transition into macro games well. Foreign terrans just don't want to cheese, for whatever reason, even though it allows them to get free wins, and show their strategical side and not rely on their mechanics, which can only be a good thing for foreigners.
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On September 12 2013 09:28 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 08:52 Faust852 wrote:
I always see protoss race as easy to play, hard to win. It's quite easy to go top but once you are at the summit, where other races are also kicking ass, it's almost impossible to win. It was the case in WoL at least, less in hots but still. Your perspective is retarded and insults anyone who plays toss professionally. If anything the lack of foreigner terrans is more indicative of a lack of top-level mechanics amongst foreigners to maximise terran's strengths the way the top koreans do.
I don't disregard Professional protoss, I love players like Grubby. But It is true that in WoL, Protoss where very underperforming. In Europe, Foreigners protoss were doing good because it was not the top level of play, but in GSL, protoss were lacking behind. If there is 42% protoss in GM, it's certainly because the race is easier to play, and I don't say stronger. i still think Terran is the strongest race if played perfectly.
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On September 13 2013 00:48 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 09:28 Scarecrow wrote:On September 12 2013 08:52 Faust852 wrote:
I always see protoss race as easy to play, hard to win. It's quite easy to go top but once you are at the summit, where other races are also kicking ass, it's almost impossible to win. It was the case in WoL at least, less in hots but still. Your perspective is retarded and insults anyone who plays toss professionally. If anything the lack of foreigner terrans is more indicative of a lack of top-level mechanics amongst foreigners to maximise terran's strengths the way the top koreans do. I don't disregard Professional protoss, I love players like Grubby. But It is true that in WoL, Protoss where very underperforming. In Europe, Foreigners protoss were doing good because it was not the top level of play, but in GSL, protoss were lacking behind. If there is 42% protoss in GM, it's certainly because the race is easier to play, and I don't say stronger. i still think Terran is the strongest race if played perfectly.
The number of players in GM doesn't really prove anything, beyond that there are more protoss players that are able to maintain the ladder score to stay in GM. You can't use confirmation bias to prove your point when there thousands of factors as to why there are more protoss in GM at a specific point.
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On September 13 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 00:48 Faust852 wrote:On September 12 2013 09:28 Scarecrow wrote:On September 12 2013 08:52 Faust852 wrote:
I always see protoss race as easy to play, hard to win. It's quite easy to go top but once you are at the summit, where other races are also kicking ass, it's almost impossible to win. It was the case in WoL at least, less in hots but still. Your perspective is retarded and insults anyone who plays toss professionally. If anything the lack of foreigner terrans is more indicative of a lack of top-level mechanics amongst foreigners to maximise terran's strengths the way the top koreans do. I don't disregard Professional protoss, I love players like Grubby. But It is true that in WoL, Protoss where very underperforming. In Europe, Foreigners protoss were doing good because it was not the top level of play, but in GSL, protoss were lacking behind. If there is 42% protoss in GM, it's certainly because the race is easier to play, and I don't say stronger. i still think Terran is the strongest race if played perfectly. The number of players in GM doesn't really prove anything, beyond that there are more protoss players that are able to maintain the ladder score to stay in GM. You can't use confirmation bias to prove your point when there thousands of factors as to why there are more protoss in GM at a specific point.
But if there are more protoss in GM, and more protoss pros, doesn't that mean anything? Every time a point is brought up you just say the sample size is too small, or it's just a coincidence. At some point you have to start addressing the fact that terran is underrepresented, and you have to ask why.
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On September 12 2013 16:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 09:15 Oblivion753 wrote:On September 12 2013 08:49 Whatson wrote:On September 12 2013 03:50 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:48 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:39 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:29 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player "Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier." As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest. He said he plays Random... not Terran exclusively. I've had the same experience as him while playing Random and finding Terran to be much much more difficult than Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg. Right when HoTs came out I was able to maintain a 70% winrate as Protoss (while playing random, my Terran was ~55%, Zerg was ~30%, ZvZ was a complete bitch TBH) through the first season. I hadn't played Protoss at all through the last 6 months of WoL yet I still struggled more with Terran despite playing similarly skilled opponents. Sure this is just my own personal testimony, but when Random players consistently have the same experience it might be an indication of some truth. There is a post that is directly above this where a terran player says they find protoss to be harder to play. Using confirmation bias to prove a point does not make it fact or based on good evidence. Finding a bunch of people who all say "Yeah, I play random and I think terran is hardest" only shows that you were able to find a group of people that agree with you. Its not like you were actively seeking out people who found the other races to be more difficult. And using phrases like "I was struggling to win against similarly skilled opponents" is not proof that your opponent was of equal skill. If the matchmaking system is working properly, and I am playing on the same account then yes, the opponents should be of "equal skill". And I urge the Random players out there that think P/Z are much harder than T to come forward and speak up. Maybe none of them post on TL though, crazy coincidence. You're not going to find many of them arguing that Protoss is harder. Even Artosis said on meta that Protoss is less about mechanics, more about timings, nailing down your builds. Zerg is pretty hard, at least harder than WoL Zerg.. I dont understand this idea at all. People also say Protoss is the 1a race, when in reality ANYONE who has played P even at a low Master level knows that P requires just as much or even more micro. If your sentries and stalkers get caught out for even a second by either a stimmed M/M or speedlings you actually just lose your entire army. Protoss requires a different kind of control that is centered around planning before and just as the fight is starting. Things like FFs and Guardian shield are so gimmicky that an army could either smash the other or simply evaporate due to poor positioning. I could easily make the argument that P has the most micro, which could also be said by all three races. The fact is all three races are played differently and shouldnt try to be clumped into one debate. Just an fyi anyone who has played the game long enough knows how broken the game used to be post launch. Everyone with an objective view of the game could tell Terran was actually broken and were given free wins with bunkers and reapers even in korea. GSL was only TVT. But guess what? Foreign Ts still werent winning the way they should have. Idk why that is for sure but i can tell you that its not because T is harder because it wasnt very hard early WoL and there still werent any results. That's just wrong. In 2010 and early 2011 Terran was by far the most successful foreigner race. Just check the  Tournaments. Same as now that the game is more balanced again. Foreign Terrans are keeping up with their foreign P/Z counterparts, but just like the foreign Z/Ps, they are not going to win a tournament anytime soon.
Define "keeping with" beacuse in Hots from your source for Major+premier tournaments, TOP 2 finishes for foreigners
T:2
Z: 7
P:10
in 2011 when Terran was still strong in general:
T:19
Z:29
P:43
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On September 13 2013 00:57 9-BiT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 00:48 Faust852 wrote:On September 12 2013 09:28 Scarecrow wrote:On September 12 2013 08:52 Faust852 wrote:
I always see protoss race as easy to play, hard to win. It's quite easy to go top but once you are at the summit, where other races are also kicking ass, it's almost impossible to win. It was the case in WoL at least, less in hots but still. Your perspective is retarded and insults anyone who plays toss professionally. If anything the lack of foreigner terrans is more indicative of a lack of top-level mechanics amongst foreigners to maximise terran's strengths the way the top koreans do. I don't disregard Professional protoss, I love players like Grubby. But It is true that in WoL, Protoss where very underperforming. In Europe, Foreigners protoss were doing good because it was not the top level of play, but in GSL, protoss were lacking behind. If there is 42% protoss in GM, it's certainly because the race is easier to play, and I don't say stronger. i still think Terran is the strongest race if played perfectly. The number of players in GM doesn't really prove anything, beyond that there are more protoss players that are able to maintain the ladder score to stay in GM. You can't use confirmation bias to prove your point when there thousands of factors as to why there are more protoss in GM at a specific point. But if there are more protoss in GM, and more protoss pros, doesn't that mean anything? Every time a point is brought up you just say the sample size is too small, or it's just a coincidence. At some point you have to start addressing the fact that terran is underrepresented, and you have to ask why.
Except people get very selective when they start to decide who is a "terran" pro and what "success", which leads to the endless debate on what counts as doing well. There are a number of high level terrans competing in the WCS in all regions. Australia only has one high level protoss, is protoss under powers for Australians? Does being down under make you unable to warp in units as quickly?
The game is not going to have a 33/33/33 split across the board in all departments.
On September 13 2013 01:00 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 16:01 Big J wrote:On September 12 2013 09:15 Oblivion753 wrote:On September 12 2013 08:49 Whatson wrote:On September 12 2013 03:50 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:48 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:39 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:29 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player "Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier." As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest. He said he plays Random... not Terran exclusively. I've had the same experience as him while playing Random and finding Terran to be much much more difficult than Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg. Right when HoTs came out I was able to maintain a 70% winrate as Protoss (while playing random, my Terran was ~55%, Zerg was ~30%, ZvZ was a complete bitch TBH) through the first season. I hadn't played Protoss at all through the last 6 months of WoL yet I still struggled more with Terran despite playing similarly skilled opponents. Sure this is just my own personal testimony, but when Random players consistently have the same experience it might be an indication of some truth. There is a post that is directly above this where a terran player says they find protoss to be harder to play. Using confirmation bias to prove a point does not make it fact or based on good evidence. Finding a bunch of people who all say "Yeah, I play random and I think terran is hardest" only shows that you were able to find a group of people that agree with you. Its not like you were actively seeking out people who found the other races to be more difficult. And using phrases like "I was struggling to win against similarly skilled opponents" is not proof that your opponent was of equal skill. If the matchmaking system is working properly, and I am playing on the same account then yes, the opponents should be of "equal skill". And I urge the Random players out there that think P/Z are much harder than T to come forward and speak up. Maybe none of them post on TL though, crazy coincidence. You're not going to find many of them arguing that Protoss is harder. Even Artosis said on meta that Protoss is less about mechanics, more about timings, nailing down your builds. Zerg is pretty hard, at least harder than WoL Zerg.. I dont understand this idea at all. People also say Protoss is the 1a race, when in reality ANYONE who has played P even at a low Master level knows that P requires just as much or even more micro. If your sentries and stalkers get caught out for even a second by either a stimmed M/M or speedlings you actually just lose your entire army. Protoss requires a different kind of control that is centered around planning before and just as the fight is starting. Things like FFs and Guardian shield are so gimmicky that an army could either smash the other or simply evaporate due to poor positioning. I could easily make the argument that P has the most micro, which could also be said by all three races. The fact is all three races are played differently and shouldnt try to be clumped into one debate. Just an fyi anyone who has played the game long enough knows how broken the game used to be post launch. Everyone with an objective view of the game could tell Terran was actually broken and were given free wins with bunkers and reapers even in korea. GSL was only TVT. But guess what? Foreign Ts still werent winning the way they should have. Idk why that is for sure but i can tell you that its not because T is harder because it wasnt very hard early WoL and there still werent any results. That's just wrong. In 2010 and early 2011 Terran was by far the most successful foreigner race. Just check the Tournaments. Same as now that the game is more balanced again. Foreign Terrans are keeping up with their foreign P/Z counterparts, but just like the foreign Z/Ps, they are not going to win a tournament anytime soon. Define "keeping with" beacuse in Hots from your source for Major+premier tournaments, TOP 2 finishes for foreigners T:2 Z: 7 P:10 in 2011 when Terran was still strong in general: T:19 Z:29 P:43
Those are some random ass numbers there. Can you show your work?
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On September 13 2013 00:57 9-BiT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 00:48 Faust852 wrote:On September 12 2013 09:28 Scarecrow wrote:On September 12 2013 08:52 Faust852 wrote:
I always see protoss race as easy to play, hard to win. It's quite easy to go top but once you are at the summit, where other races are also kicking ass, it's almost impossible to win. It was the case in WoL at least, less in hots but still. Your perspective is retarded and insults anyone who plays toss professionally. If anything the lack of foreigner terrans is more indicative of a lack of top-level mechanics amongst foreigners to maximise terran's strengths the way the top koreans do. I don't disregard Professional protoss, I love players like Grubby. But It is true that in WoL, Protoss where very underperforming. In Europe, Foreigners protoss were doing good because it was not the top level of play, but in GSL, protoss were lacking behind. If there is 42% protoss in GM, it's certainly because the race is easier to play, and I don't say stronger. i still think Terran is the strongest race if played perfectly. The number of players in GM doesn't really prove anything, beyond that there are more protoss players that are able to maintain the ladder score to stay in GM. You can't use confirmation bias to prove your point when there thousands of factors as to why there are more protoss in GM at a specific point. But if there are more protoss in GM, and more protoss pros, doesn't that mean anything? Every time a point is brought up you just say the sample size is too small, or it's just a coincidence. At some point you have to start addressing the fact that terran is underrepresented, and you have to ask why.
why does that have to say anything?
Like in football, if you ask children what they want to play they will all tell you that they like the forward and midfield positions. You won't find that many that tell you they want to become a defender. Does that mean that playing defender is "harder"? No, it means that they have more fun taking the roles of trying to score, instead of preventing scoring of the enemy team.
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On September 13 2013 01:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 00:57 9-BiT wrote:On September 13 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 00:48 Faust852 wrote:On September 12 2013 09:28 Scarecrow wrote:On September 12 2013 08:52 Faust852 wrote:
I always see protoss race as easy to play, hard to win. It's quite easy to go top but once you are at the summit, where other races are also kicking ass, it's almost impossible to win. It was the case in WoL at least, less in hots but still. Your perspective is retarded and insults anyone who plays toss professionally. If anything the lack of foreigner terrans is more indicative of a lack of top-level mechanics amongst foreigners to maximise terran's strengths the way the top koreans do. I don't disregard Professional protoss, I love players like Grubby. But It is true that in WoL, Protoss where very underperforming. In Europe, Foreigners protoss were doing good because it was not the top level of play, but in GSL, protoss were lacking behind. If there is 42% protoss in GM, it's certainly because the race is easier to play, and I don't say stronger. i still think Terran is the strongest race if played perfectly. The number of players in GM doesn't really prove anything, beyond that there are more protoss players that are able to maintain the ladder score to stay in GM. You can't use confirmation bias to prove your point when there thousands of factors as to why there are more protoss in GM at a specific point. But if there are more protoss in GM, and more protoss pros, doesn't that mean anything? Every time a point is brought up you just say the sample size is too small, or it's just a coincidence. At some point you have to start addressing the fact that terran is underrepresented, and you have to ask why. Except people get very selective when they start to decide who is a "terran" pro and what "success", which leads to the endless debate on what counts as doing well. There are a number of high level terrans competing in the WCS in all regions. Australia only has one high level protoss, is protoss under powers for Australians? Does being down under make you unable to warp in units as quickly? The game is not going to have a 33/33/33 split across the board in all departments. Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 01:00 keglu wrote:On September 12 2013 16:01 Big J wrote:On September 12 2013 09:15 Oblivion753 wrote:On September 12 2013 08:49 Whatson wrote:On September 12 2013 03:50 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:48 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:39 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:29 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player "Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier." As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest. He said he plays Random... not Terran exclusively. I've had the same experience as him while playing Random and finding Terran to be much much more difficult than Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg. Right when HoTs came out I was able to maintain a 70% winrate as Protoss (while playing random, my Terran was ~55%, Zerg was ~30%, ZvZ was a complete bitch TBH) through the first season. I hadn't played Protoss at all through the last 6 months of WoL yet I still struggled more with Terran despite playing similarly skilled opponents. Sure this is just my own personal testimony, but when Random players consistently have the same experience it might be an indication of some truth. There is a post that is directly above this where a terran player says they find protoss to be harder to play. Using confirmation bias to prove a point does not make it fact or based on good evidence. Finding a bunch of people who all say "Yeah, I play random and I think terran is hardest" only shows that you were able to find a group of people that agree with you. Its not like you were actively seeking out people who found the other races to be more difficult. And using phrases like "I was struggling to win against similarly skilled opponents" is not proof that your opponent was of equal skill. If the matchmaking system is working properly, and I am playing on the same account then yes, the opponents should be of "equal skill". And I urge the Random players out there that think P/Z are much harder than T to come forward and speak up. Maybe none of them post on TL though, crazy coincidence. You're not going to find many of them arguing that Protoss is harder. Even Artosis said on meta that Protoss is less about mechanics, more about timings, nailing down your builds. Zerg is pretty hard, at least harder than WoL Zerg.. I dont understand this idea at all. People also say Protoss is the 1a race, when in reality ANYONE who has played P even at a low Master level knows that P requires just as much or even more micro. If your sentries and stalkers get caught out for even a second by either a stimmed M/M or speedlings you actually just lose your entire army. Protoss requires a different kind of control that is centered around planning before and just as the fight is starting. Things like FFs and Guardian shield are so gimmicky that an army could either smash the other or simply evaporate due to poor positioning. I could easily make the argument that P has the most micro, which could also be said by all three races. The fact is all three races are played differently and shouldnt try to be clumped into one debate. Just an fyi anyone who has played the game long enough knows how broken the game used to be post launch. Everyone with an objective view of the game could tell Terran was actually broken and were given free wins with bunkers and reapers even in korea. GSL was only TVT. But guess what? Foreign Ts still werent winning the way they should have. Idk why that is for sure but i can tell you that its not because T is harder because it wasnt very hard early WoL and there still werent any results. That's just wrong. In 2010 and early 2011 Terran was by far the most successful foreigner race. Just check the Tournaments. Same as now that the game is more balanced again. Foreign Terrans are keeping up with their foreign P/Z counterparts, but just like the foreign Z/Ps, they are not going to win a tournament anytime soon. Define "keeping with" beacuse in Hots from your source for Major+premier tournaments, TOP 2 finishes for foreigners T:2 Z: 7 P:10 in 2011 when Terran was still strong in general: T:19 Z:29 P:43 Those are some random ass numbers there. Can you show your work?
Just open http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_Tournaments and count, and ten proceed with premier tournaments
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On September 13 2013 01:00 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 16:01 Big J wrote:On September 12 2013 09:15 Oblivion753 wrote:On September 12 2013 08:49 Whatson wrote:On September 12 2013 03:50 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:48 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:39 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:29 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player "Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier." As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest. He said he plays Random... not Terran exclusively. I've had the same experience as him while playing Random and finding Terran to be much much more difficult than Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg. Right when HoTs came out I was able to maintain a 70% winrate as Protoss (while playing random, my Terran was ~55%, Zerg was ~30%, ZvZ was a complete bitch TBH) through the first season. I hadn't played Protoss at all through the last 6 months of WoL yet I still struggled more with Terran despite playing similarly skilled opponents. Sure this is just my own personal testimony, but when Random players consistently have the same experience it might be an indication of some truth. There is a post that is directly above this where a terran player says they find protoss to be harder to play. Using confirmation bias to prove a point does not make it fact or based on good evidence. Finding a bunch of people who all say "Yeah, I play random and I think terran is hardest" only shows that you were able to find a group of people that agree with you. Its not like you were actively seeking out people who found the other races to be more difficult. And using phrases like "I was struggling to win against similarly skilled opponents" is not proof that your opponent was of equal skill. If the matchmaking system is working properly, and I am playing on the same account then yes, the opponents should be of "equal skill". And I urge the Random players out there that think P/Z are much harder than T to come forward and speak up. Maybe none of them post on TL though, crazy coincidence. You're not going to find many of them arguing that Protoss is harder. Even Artosis said on meta that Protoss is less about mechanics, more about timings, nailing down your builds. Zerg is pretty hard, at least harder than WoL Zerg.. I dont understand this idea at all. People also say Protoss is the 1a race, when in reality ANYONE who has played P even at a low Master level knows that P requires just as much or even more micro. If your sentries and stalkers get caught out for even a second by either a stimmed M/M or speedlings you actually just lose your entire army. Protoss requires a different kind of control that is centered around planning before and just as the fight is starting. Things like FFs and Guardian shield are so gimmicky that an army could either smash the other or simply evaporate due to poor positioning. I could easily make the argument that P has the most micro, which could also be said by all three races. The fact is all three races are played differently and shouldnt try to be clumped into one debate. Just an fyi anyone who has played the game long enough knows how broken the game used to be post launch. Everyone with an objective view of the game could tell Terran was actually broken and were given free wins with bunkers and reapers even in korea. GSL was only TVT. But guess what? Foreign Ts still werent winning the way they should have. Idk why that is for sure but i can tell you that its not because T is harder because it wasnt very hard early WoL and there still werent any results. That's just wrong. In 2010 and early 2011 Terran was by far the most successful foreigner race. Just check the Tournaments. Same as now that the game is more balanced again. Foreign Terrans are keeping up with their foreign P/Z counterparts, but just like the foreign Z/Ps, they are not going to win a tournament anytime soon. Define "keeping with" beacuse in Hots from your source for Major+premier tournaments, TOP 2 finishes for foreigners T:2 Z: 7 P:10 in 2011 when Terran was still strong in general: T:19 Z:29 P:43
Best foreigner on aligulac: Lucifron; 3Terrans in the top10
http://aligulac.com/periods/93/?page=1&sort=&race=ptzrs&nats=foreigners
Best foreigner on TLPD: Happy
Lucifron: 72% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans
Happy: 71% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans
HeroMarine: 69% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans
Dayshi: 64% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans
Comparison
Naniwa: 75% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans
Welmu: 69% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans
Stephano: 66% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans
VortiX: 65% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans
Snute: 64% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans
TLO: 60% on HotS against non-Koreans
Grubby: 56% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans
(this is by no means a complete list, but just a few players that came to my mind)
Those tournaments you talk about... Have a deeper look. At least amongst the first 5 of the major tournaments, there were 3rd and a 4th place for Terran foreigners.
It's really not like foreign Terrans get beaten up by foreign T/Ps. They have their quarterfinals and semifinals. It's basically the reverse situation to Korean Protoss. They have their runs in tournaments. They just don't make it to the finals as often as Korean Z/T.
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On September 13 2013 01:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 00:57 9-BiT wrote:On September 13 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 00:48 Faust852 wrote:On September 12 2013 09:28 Scarecrow wrote:On September 12 2013 08:52 Faust852 wrote:
I always see protoss race as easy to play, hard to win. It's quite easy to go top but once you are at the summit, where other races are also kicking ass, it's almost impossible to win. It was the case in WoL at least, less in hots but still. Your perspective is retarded and insults anyone who plays toss professionally. If anything the lack of foreigner terrans is more indicative of a lack of top-level mechanics amongst foreigners to maximise terran's strengths the way the top koreans do. I don't disregard Professional protoss, I love players like Grubby. But It is true that in WoL, Protoss where very underperforming. In Europe, Foreigners protoss were doing good because it was not the top level of play, but in GSL, protoss were lacking behind. If there is 42% protoss in GM, it's certainly because the race is easier to play, and I don't say stronger. i still think Terran is the strongest race if played perfectly. The number of players in GM doesn't really prove anything, beyond that there are more protoss players that are able to maintain the ladder score to stay in GM. You can't use confirmation bias to prove your point when there thousands of factors as to why there are more protoss in GM at a specific point. But if there are more protoss in GM, and more protoss pros, doesn't that mean anything? Every time a point is brought up you just say the sample size is too small, or it's just a coincidence. At some point you have to start addressing the fact that terran is underrepresented, and you have to ask why. why does that have to say anything? Like in football, if you ask children what they want to play they will all tell you that they like the forward and midfield positions. You won't find that many that tell you they want to become a defender. Does that mean that playing defender is "harder"? No, it means that they have more fun taking the roles of trying to score, instead of preventing scoring of the enemy team.
Comparing children playing football to gm is fucking hilarious. You should be talking about bronze-gold, I don't care how sarcastic or how much of a superiority complex you have, gm is top level.
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On September 13 2013 01:33 9-BiT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 01:07 Big J wrote:On September 13 2013 00:57 9-BiT wrote:On September 13 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 00:48 Faust852 wrote:On September 12 2013 09:28 Scarecrow wrote:On September 12 2013 08:52 Faust852 wrote:
I always see protoss race as easy to play, hard to win. It's quite easy to go top but once you are at the summit, where other races are also kicking ass, it's almost impossible to win. It was the case in WoL at least, less in hots but still. Your perspective is retarded and insults anyone who plays toss professionally. If anything the lack of foreigner terrans is more indicative of a lack of top-level mechanics amongst foreigners to maximise terran's strengths the way the top koreans do. I don't disregard Professional protoss, I love players like Grubby. But It is true that in WoL, Protoss where very underperforming. In Europe, Foreigners protoss were doing good because it was not the top level of play, but in GSL, protoss were lacking behind. If there is 42% protoss in GM, it's certainly because the race is easier to play, and I don't say stronger. i still think Terran is the strongest race if played perfectly. The number of players in GM doesn't really prove anything, beyond that there are more protoss players that are able to maintain the ladder score to stay in GM. You can't use confirmation bias to prove your point when there thousands of factors as to why there are more protoss in GM at a specific point. But if there are more protoss in GM, and more protoss pros, doesn't that mean anything? Every time a point is brought up you just say the sample size is too small, or it's just a coincidence. At some point you have to start addressing the fact that terran is underrepresented, and you have to ask why. why does that have to say anything? Like in football, if you ask children what they want to play they will all tell you that they like the forward and midfield positions. You won't find that many that tell you they want to become a defender. Does that mean that playing defender is "harder"? No, it means that they have more fun taking the roles of trying to score, instead of preventing scoring of the enemy team. Comparing children playing football to gm is fucking hilarious. You should be talking about bronze-gold, I don't care how sarcastic or how much of a superiority complex you have, gm is top level.
I'm talking about the race picking process and that (most) people don't pick a race because it is "easier" or "harder".
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On September 13 2013 01:35 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 01:33 9-BiT wrote:On September 13 2013 01:07 Big J wrote:On September 13 2013 00:57 9-BiT wrote:On September 13 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 00:48 Faust852 wrote:On September 12 2013 09:28 Scarecrow wrote:On September 12 2013 08:52 Faust852 wrote:
I always see protoss race as easy to play, hard to win. It's quite easy to go top but once you are at the summit, where other races are also kicking ass, it's almost impossible to win. It was the case in WoL at least, less in hots but still. Your perspective is retarded and insults anyone who plays toss professionally. If anything the lack of foreigner terrans is more indicative of a lack of top-level mechanics amongst foreigners to maximise terran's strengths the way the top koreans do. I don't disregard Professional protoss, I love players like Grubby. But It is true that in WoL, Protoss where very underperforming. In Europe, Foreigners protoss were doing good because it was not the top level of play, but in GSL, protoss were lacking behind. If there is 42% protoss in GM, it's certainly because the race is easier to play, and I don't say stronger. i still think Terran is the strongest race if played perfectly. The number of players in GM doesn't really prove anything, beyond that there are more protoss players that are able to maintain the ladder score to stay in GM. You can't use confirmation bias to prove your point when there thousands of factors as to why there are more protoss in GM at a specific point. But if there are more protoss in GM, and more protoss pros, doesn't that mean anything? Every time a point is brought up you just say the sample size is too small, or it's just a coincidence. At some point you have to start addressing the fact that terran is underrepresented, and you have to ask why. why does that have to say anything? Like in football, if you ask children what they want to play they will all tell you that they like the forward and midfield positions. You won't find that many that tell you they want to become a defender. Does that mean that playing defender is "harder"? No, it means that they have more fun taking the roles of trying to score, instead of preventing scoring of the enemy team. Comparing children playing football to gm is fucking hilarious. You should be talking about bronze-gold, I don't care how sarcastic or how much of a superiority complex you have, gm is top level. I'm talking about the race picking process and that (most) people don't pick a race because it is "easier" or "harder".
I don't care what they pick. I'm talking about the best starcraft players.
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On September 13 2013 01:39 9-BiT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 01:35 Big J wrote:On September 13 2013 01:33 9-BiT wrote:On September 13 2013 01:07 Big J wrote:On September 13 2013 00:57 9-BiT wrote:On September 13 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote:On September 13 2013 00:48 Faust852 wrote:On September 12 2013 09:28 Scarecrow wrote:On September 12 2013 08:52 Faust852 wrote:
I always see protoss race as easy to play, hard to win. It's quite easy to go top but once you are at the summit, where other races are also kicking ass, it's almost impossible to win. It was the case in WoL at least, less in hots but still. Your perspective is retarded and insults anyone who plays toss professionally. If anything the lack of foreigner terrans is more indicative of a lack of top-level mechanics amongst foreigners to maximise terran's strengths the way the top koreans do. I don't disregard Professional protoss, I love players like Grubby. But It is true that in WoL, Protoss where very underperforming. In Europe, Foreigners protoss were doing good because it was not the top level of play, but in GSL, protoss were lacking behind. If there is 42% protoss in GM, it's certainly because the race is easier to play, and I don't say stronger. i still think Terran is the strongest race if played perfectly. The number of players in GM doesn't really prove anything, beyond that there are more protoss players that are able to maintain the ladder score to stay in GM. You can't use confirmation bias to prove your point when there thousands of factors as to why there are more protoss in GM at a specific point. But if there are more protoss in GM, and more protoss pros, doesn't that mean anything? Every time a point is brought up you just say the sample size is too small, or it's just a coincidence. At some point you have to start addressing the fact that terran is underrepresented, and you have to ask why. why does that have to say anything? Like in football, if you ask children what they want to play they will all tell you that they like the forward and midfield positions. You won't find that many that tell you they want to become a defender. Does that mean that playing defender is "harder"? No, it means that they have more fun taking the roles of trying to score, instead of preventing scoring of the enemy team. Comparing children playing football to gm is fucking hilarious. You should be talking about bronze-gold, I don't care how sarcastic or how much of a superiority complex you have, gm is top level. I'm talking about the race picking process and that (most) people don't pick a race because it is "easier" or "harder". I don't care what they pick. I'm talking about the best starcraft players.
The point is that even the best Starcraft players pick the race based on any number of reasons, not simply based on which it is easiest to win with. Big J is pointing out that the challenge of a specific thing does not directly relate to the reasons why people pick it.
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On September 13 2013 01:31 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 01:00 keglu wrote:On September 12 2013 16:01 Big J wrote:On September 12 2013 09:15 Oblivion753 wrote:On September 12 2013 08:49 Whatson wrote:On September 12 2013 03:50 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:48 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:39 SupLilSon wrote:On September 12 2013 03:29 Plansix wrote:On September 12 2013 03:11 c0sm0naut wrote:
Terran pop is very low again in gm worldwide besides KR where there at slightly more tgamers but still below 1/3rd. Protoss dominates the ladder via best of 1 format at 42%. I play r and have hit gms a few times on ladder and would say as Terran it's gonna be so hard to climb the ladder and that alone is probably demoralizing enough for the vast majority of aspiring Terran out there. After being the wol punching bag towards the end it really shouldn't be any mystery why the top Terran names are only familiar while top Z and P names are born monthly. My 2 cents. Not trying to QQ Terran is still the best race if you are the better player "Not whining or anything. Terran is a great race if you are better than your opponent, but if you are at equal skill level, they are doing to win because protoss and zerg are just easier." As I said before, the terran players are so "on message". they hit all their talking points and make sure that people know that their race is hardest. He said he plays Random... not Terran exclusively. I've had the same experience as him while playing Random and finding Terran to be much much more difficult than Protoss and to a lesser extent Zerg. Right when HoTs came out I was able to maintain a 70% winrate as Protoss (while playing random, my Terran was ~55%, Zerg was ~30%, ZvZ was a complete bitch TBH) through the first season. I hadn't played Protoss at all through the last 6 months of WoL yet I still struggled more with Terran despite playing similarly skilled opponents. Sure this is just my own personal testimony, but when Random players consistently have the same experience it might be an indication of some truth. There is a post that is directly above this where a terran player says they find protoss to be harder to play. Using confirmation bias to prove a point does not make it fact or based on good evidence. Finding a bunch of people who all say "Yeah, I play random and I think terran is hardest" only shows that you were able to find a group of people that agree with you. Its not like you were actively seeking out people who found the other races to be more difficult. And using phrases like "I was struggling to win against similarly skilled opponents" is not proof that your opponent was of equal skill. If the matchmaking system is working properly, and I am playing on the same account then yes, the opponents should be of "equal skill". And I urge the Random players out there that think P/Z are much harder than T to come forward and speak up. Maybe none of them post on TL though, crazy coincidence. You're not going to find many of them arguing that Protoss is harder. Even Artosis said on meta that Protoss is less about mechanics, more about timings, nailing down your builds. Zerg is pretty hard, at least harder than WoL Zerg.. I dont understand this idea at all. People also say Protoss is the 1a race, when in reality ANYONE who has played P even at a low Master level knows that P requires just as much or even more micro. If your sentries and stalkers get caught out for even a second by either a stimmed M/M or speedlings you actually just lose your entire army. Protoss requires a different kind of control that is centered around planning before and just as the fight is starting. Things like FFs and Guardian shield are so gimmicky that an army could either smash the other or simply evaporate due to poor positioning. I could easily make the argument that P has the most micro, which could also be said by all three races. The fact is all three races are played differently and shouldnt try to be clumped into one debate. Just an fyi anyone who has played the game long enough knows how broken the game used to be post launch. Everyone with an objective view of the game could tell Terran was actually broken and were given free wins with bunkers and reapers even in korea. GSL was only TVT. But guess what? Foreign Ts still werent winning the way they should have. Idk why that is for sure but i can tell you that its not because T is harder because it wasnt very hard early WoL and there still werent any results. That's just wrong. In 2010 and early 2011 Terran was by far the most successful foreigner race. Just check the Tournaments. Same as now that the game is more balanced again. Foreign Terrans are keeping up with their foreign P/Z counterparts, but just like the foreign Z/Ps, they are not going to win a tournament anytime soon. Define "keeping with" beacuse in Hots from your source for Major+premier tournaments, TOP 2 finishes for foreigners T:2 Z: 7 P:10 in 2011 when Terran was still strong in general: T:19 Z:29 P:43 Best foreigner on aligulac: Lucifron; 3Terrans in the top10 http://aligulac.com/periods/93/?page=1&sort=&race=ptzrs&nats=foreignersBest foreigner on TLPD: Happy Lucifron: 72% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans Happy: 71% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans HeroMarine: 69% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans Dayshi: 64% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans Comparison Naniwa: 75% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans Welmu: 69% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans Stephano: 66% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans VortiX: 65% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans Snute: 64% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans TLO: 60% on HotS against non-Koreans Grubby: 56% winrate on HotS against non-Koreans (this is by no means a complete list, but just a few players that came to my mind) Those tournaments you talk about... Have a deeper look. At least amongst the first 5 of the major tournaments, there were 3rd and a 4th place for Terran foreigners. It's really not like foreign Terrans get beaten up by foreign T/Ps. They have their quarterfinals and semifinals. It's basically the reverse situation to Korean Protoss. They have their runs in tournaments. They just don't make it to the finals as often as Korean Z/T.
If you wanna add 3/4 places go ahead since its not on main site it will take some time, I know they have thier runs, just their runs statistical shorter than foreign Z/P. Also i noticed foreign Terran doing better at the begining of the HOTS(not in terms of tournament success) but lately it feels like its trending to WoL situation.
Also for 2012, T:11, P:20, Z:33 so for 2011-2013 its about +- T:35, P:73, Z: 69. i surely made some mistakes in counting general outlook stays the same.
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EPT
