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i think part of the OPness of the infestor is that its like this all in one units.
terran has to seige, stim, snipe/emp and to a further extent HSM/PDD in a battle
protoss has to FF/GS, storm, blink, and vortex
zerg has to press F, T and later game use queens to transfuse (which isn't even really neccesary to win it seems like)
i think this makes it a lot easier for zerg.
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I think all they need to do to infestors is increase supply cost from 2 to 3. More supply = less infestors.
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You know this lasted more than a night and was live on ladder right ? Plenty of people played and watched matchs where Terran just massed Ghost and couldnt lose, the funniest part was that even before Terran discovering that, matchup was already favoring them at 60%, so yes, like you said, it was hilarious.
Maybe not over a night, but you mean 2 weeks before blizzard pulled the trigger and nerfed Terran? Hmm,,,blizz sure is trigger happy when it comes to nerfing terrans.
They are not viable, they are situational, you see the occasional game where Zerg punish a greedy opponent by doing that, what usually oppen is the 200 supply Zerg army impale itself on a line of Tank/forcefield and die in a horribly cost effective way,
Muta Ling Bane. Period. Last season GSL, there's been way more games of Zs going MLB over Infestors. But yes, the late game Infestor Brood is unbeatable unless the T is ridiculously ahead.
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On December 01 2012 12:47 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +
This kind of peremptory statement always makes me laugh considering a huge part of the small Snipe data comes from Mvp crushing inferior Zergs, most of the time after vastly outplaying by midgame.
You know this lasted more than a night and was live on ladder right ? Plenty of people played and watched matchs where Terran just massed Ghost and couldnt lose, the funniest part was that even before Terran discovering that, matchup was already favoring them at 60%, so yes, like you said, it was hilarious. Show nested quote +This is so painfully wrong. Mutalisks, Zerglings raids, Roaches attacks/drops, etc., are perfectly viable as an agressive midgame play. They are not viable, they are situational, you see the occasional game where Zerg punish a greedy opponent by doing that, what usually oppen is the 200 supply Zerg army impale itself on a line of Tank/forcefield and die in a horribly cost effective way,
Do you even watch top players from your own race or do you keep spreading the same biased fallacies again and again? In what kind of world is Mutalisk play only used to “punish greed”?
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On December 01 2012 12:53 GodTroll wrote:Show nested quote +
You know this lasted more than a night and was live on ladder right ? Plenty of people played and watched matchs where Terran just massed Ghost and couldnt lose, the funniest part was that even before Terran discovering that, matchup was already favoring them at 60%, so yes, like you said, it was hilarious.
Maybe not over a night, but you mean 2 weeks before blizzard pulled the trigger and nerfed Terran? Hmm,,,blizz sure is trigger happy when it comes to nerfing terrans. Show nested quote +They are not viable, they are situational, you see the occasional game where Zerg punish a greedy opponent by doing that, what usually oppen is the 200 supply Zerg army impale itself on a line of Tank/forcefield and die in a horribly cost effective way, Muta Ling Bane. Period. Last season GSL, there's been way more games of Zs going MLB over Infestors. But yes, the late game Infestor Brood is unbeatable unless the T is ridiculously ahead.
Snipe wasnt a slight imbalance, it was complete retardation, Terran were already winning everything since a long time and suddenly just spammed ghost and Zerg had no answer. It was just that simple.
Muta Ling Bane is predictable and exhausted, I'm sorry but no, not many Zerg played that style and still play it, there are not many "Agressive Zerg" right now, because they're not really successfull with it.
You still see people beat Infestor/Broodlord while not being that ahead, it's rare but it happen, it never happened with ghost, snipe wiped out everything
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How does Infestors don't feel like a "catch-all" unit?
What do you think your main objective is with fungal? It's to catch all units...it's to trap all units...it's to remove Terran's advantage (micro). Without micro, Terran is the worst race, generally. All of their units are range which opens the potential of opportunities for Terran to perform to grab the lead/win the game. If you remove what Terran heavily relies upon, what do you expect Terran to do against Zerg?
On to infested terrans
The problem with them is the fact is it's pretty cheap (only 25 energy) and has more DPS than the core units of the other races :o. Other problem is when it's equipped with a maxed army, the other race has to essentially face a 300-like army for the amount of ITs that can be spewed out in the late game.
This egg change doesn't do anything because like others have said the egg regenerates 1 more HP so NO storm doesn't kill instantly, you still have to perform 1 attack on them.
How can they fix infestors you ask?
Why not just make it where air units are immune to fungal? Because ZvZ will be just a muta fest? Isn't that better? If not then change it where non-biological air units are immune to fungal? To me that's a better fix that should be tested.
It's too big of a change for Zerg because they are too comfortable where infestors fills every slot and can deal with every composition/unit the other race can throw at them. You don't see that luxury from the other race IMO.
I LOL at Zergs complaining about them not able to stop Warp Prisms from harassing...how do you think (toss) players feel dealing with Mutas?
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What I don't understand is blizzard's definition of 'early' 'mid' 'late' (meta) while i play TvZ the zerg opponents usually(4 out of 5) never do anything aggressive they just turtle and rush to late game(16 minutes?), 4-5 base full tech tree etc 80+ drone count. add in the zerg spell casters which i have been having trouble with micro battling since zerg like to take queens in the late game army and infuse ultras bl corr + fungal + the creep mechanics, just make zergs all around a pain and makes the game not a lot of fun. This is added to all the terran nerfs bunker barracks BF etc makes the early game incredibly short plus i have to get a good tank count to counter his bling-infestor (mid game) play that is pretty much a stall for broodlords. I know i spend to much time with my army on attacks which draws away from my Base management but if i don't infestors will just crop up and annihilate army which happens anyway do to thee constant micro needed to keep them alive.
I'm just saying TvT is where my heart is, lucky if I play one out of ten though, ZvZ is just ugly. they have broken macro and spell casting mechanics that pretty much make this match up a handicap of -4 terran vs +2 zerg
that imo would be the best quick fix just make zerg a little more favored on the ladder system to make up for it
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Northern Ireland25082 Posts
On December 01 2012 12:37 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 12:15 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 01 2012 12:04 Corrosive wrote:On December 01 2012 11:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually cannot believe how retarded people are being about this. I genuinely can't, even posters I normally respect are posting nonsense here.
The reason (most) of us bitch about the infestor isn't due to fungal being too good, or infested terrans being too good, but that they are too good, and too versatile, taking away the infestor being a useful support unit, and making it obligatory.
It's patently, fucking, obvious, that Blizzard are tweaking small things with each of the infestor's abilities to try and figure out to what degree they can nerf each of them, while maintaining the utility of the infestor.
If the infestor was like the ghost, when snipe was dominating everything, they WOULD nerf that one ability, 100%. I am convinced of this. However, the infestor being 'overpowered' is in relation to both of its abilities, either that they're too good individually, or too good for one caster to have both, in its current form.
Blizzard are obviously trying to isolate the two spells in these testing maps, and trying to find values that balance them, independently. They aren't retarded, they know that they could straight up nerf the infestor, and how they could do that. They are merely trying to think about how this is done, and to what degree this is done through testing out a multitude of ideas.
Imagine if the marine was thought of as overpowered, in that the community overwhelming thought so, and demanded action. Any kind of nerf would be enormously complex because the marine affects every single Terran matchup, and close to every single Terran composition. Thus it would have to be a careful, considered process of balancing due to the HUGE impact that getting it wrong would have.
Why is this a bad approach? Can somebody please tell me why? I am genuinely curious. because this change does literally nothing. If the change does nothing, Blizzard will see that it does nothing and look at other ways of tweaking the Infestor. It's not bad to identify this, at all. @ZAINs and aksfjh As I see it, they're not saying say, fungal is fine. They're saying the specific changes they were trying didn't work, that they didn't have the desired, proportional change that Blizzard were looking for. At no point have I seen a Blizzard employee come out since this process started and said 'fungal is fine', or that the infestor is fine overall. It's implicit. In the past, the timetable has been: 1) Something looks broken, and the community complains 2) We wait for Blizzard acknowledgement, sometimes it takes more than 6 months 3) Blizzard notes that they're looking at it, sometimes offers a general direction of their response 4) Blizzard comes out with a test map (or PTR long ago) 5) If needed, Blizzard comes up with a revised test map that reverts or adds changes 6) Blizzard releases patch We have yet to see an "isolated" approach to balance. It has always been direct changes, and iterative changes. By taking out the fungal change and only going back to IT, they have implicitly decided that fungal isn't the problem, nor is the infestor as a whole.
That pattern is correctly identified, and was applicable to how Blizz used to patch for sure. I do feel that their new 'hands-off unless entirely necessary' approach, with a more measured way of balancing is actually a tangible thing, but I might be wrong. I am reading between the lines when it comes to what I feel is motivating Blizz with their attempts to re-balance the infestor, and their reasoning. I might be wrong though, because it's conjecture.
The Queen/overlord change was the last change I feel they made arbitrarily, by that I mean without fitting into the 'Something looks broken, and the community complains' part of your post. The kind of change that was Blizzard trying to fix the game themselves without being based on community grievances (by and large).
When the change was proposed in the abstract form, very few people disagreed with it, conceptually. When it was being tested, few people, even the pros saw a problem with it. I do remember Kawaiirice being a notable exception, and even he didn't disagree with the changes before he actually got to test them.
However, when the pros properly got their hands on the new Queens and speedy overlords, and refined their useage, we have the current (worse imo) metagame of Zergs getting a 'free pass to hive'. I also believe that Blizzard did not want their patch to lead to that either. It was an attempt to change the 'stale' TvZ metagame, but not with the intention of creating another stale metagame that benefited Zerg.
It's that kind of unintentional consequence that I am close to 100% convinced that Blizzard do NOT want to produce with the infestor changes, hence why I am happy for them to change things slowly. Basically, I'd rather them find a solution that is correct and functions properly, than try to apply a solution that is something random and untested, throw it out, see if it works, that might have a huge consequence of the game.
Also, on an unrelated note, it's threads full of whiners like these who convince me that Blizzard will NEVER try to redesign more fundamental concepts, even in LoTV. If people are bashing them for taking their time on a complex change like the Infestor changes, how can we ever, ever expect them to look at something more complex like Warpgates?
That is something that many people, even Protoss players like me would like to see, although I know it's stated that this option is currently off the table according to Browder
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On December 01 2012 12:59 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 12:53 GodTroll wrote:
You know this lasted more than a night and was live on ladder right ? Plenty of people played and watched matchs where Terran just massed Ghost and couldnt lose, the funniest part was that even before Terran discovering that, matchup was already favoring them at 60%, so yes, like you said, it was hilarious.
Maybe not over a night, but you mean 2 weeks before blizzard pulled the trigger and nerfed Terran? Hmm,,,blizz sure is trigger happy when it comes to nerfing terrans. They are not viable, they are situational, you see the occasional game where Zerg punish a greedy opponent by doing that, what usually oppen is the 200 supply Zerg army impale itself on a line of Tank/forcefield and die in a horribly cost effective way, Muta Ling Bane. Period. Last season GSL, there's been way more games of Zs going MLB over Infestors. But yes, the late game Infestor Brood is unbeatable unless the T is ridiculously ahead. Snipe wasnt a slight imbalance, it was complete retardation, Terran were already winning everything since a long time and suddenly just spammed ghost and Zerg had no answer. It was just that simple. Muta Ling Bane is predictable and exhausted, I'm sorry but no, not many Zerg played that style and still play it, there are not many "Agressive Zerg" right now, because they're not really successfull with it. You still see people beat Infestor/Broodlord while not being that ahead, it's rare but it happen, it never happened with ghost, snipe wiped out everything
lol...Really? I really can't tell if I'm the GodofTroll anymore.
Yes. just yes. Zergs still go mutas waaay more than infestors. I'm not going to go through all the replays on Gomtv.net, but I am willing to take you on a challenge that there were more mutals still being used in the last GSL season (both S/A).
How can you possibly start an argument if you don't even know your facts?
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On December 01 2012 13:05 GodTroll wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 12:59 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 12:53 GodTroll wrote:
You know this lasted more than a night and was live on ladder right ? Plenty of people played and watched matchs where Terran just massed Ghost and couldnt lose, the funniest part was that even before Terran discovering that, matchup was already favoring them at 60%, so yes, like you said, it was hilarious.
Maybe not over a night, but you mean 2 weeks before blizzard pulled the trigger and nerfed Terran? Hmm,,,blizz sure is trigger happy when it comes to nerfing terrans. They are not viable, they are situational, you see the occasional game where Zerg punish a greedy opponent by doing that, what usually oppen is the 200 supply Zerg army impale itself on a line of Tank/forcefield and die in a horribly cost effective way, Muta Ling Bane. Period. Last season GSL, there's been way more games of Zs going MLB over Infestors. But yes, the late game Infestor Brood is unbeatable unless the T is ridiculously ahead. Snipe wasnt a slight imbalance, it was complete retardation, Terran were already winning everything since a long time and suddenly just spammed ghost and Zerg had no answer. It was just that simple. Muta Ling Bane is predictable and exhausted, I'm sorry but no, not many Zerg played that style and still play it, there are not many "Agressive Zerg" right now, because they're not really successfull with it. You still see people beat Infestor/Broodlord while not being that ahead, it's rare but it happen, it never happened with ghost, snipe wiped out everything lol...Really? I really can't tell if I'm the GodofTroll anymore. Yes. just yes. Zergs still go mutas waaay more than infestors. I'm not going to go through all the replays on Gomtv.net, but I am willing to take you on a challenge that there were more mutals still being used in the last GSL season (both S/A). How can you possibly start an argument if you don't even know your facts?
Indeed, how ? Bring it, I'm ready
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On December 01 2012 13:07 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 13:05 GodTroll wrote:On December 01 2012 12:59 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 12:53 GodTroll wrote:
You know this lasted more than a night and was live on ladder right ? Plenty of people played and watched matchs where Terran just massed Ghost and couldnt lose, the funniest part was that even before Terran discovering that, matchup was already favoring them at 60%, so yes, like you said, it was hilarious.
Maybe not over a night, but you mean 2 weeks before blizzard pulled the trigger and nerfed Terran? Hmm,,,blizz sure is trigger happy when it comes to nerfing terrans. They are not viable, they are situational, you see the occasional game where Zerg punish a greedy opponent by doing that, what usually oppen is the 200 supply Zerg army impale itself on a line of Tank/forcefield and die in a horribly cost effective way, Muta Ling Bane. Period. Last season GSL, there's been way more games of Zs going MLB over Infestors. But yes, the late game Infestor Brood is unbeatable unless the T is ridiculously ahead. Snipe wasnt a slight imbalance, it was complete retardation, Terran were already winning everything since a long time and suddenly just spammed ghost and Zerg had no answer. It was just that simple. Muta Ling Bane is predictable and exhausted, I'm sorry but no, not many Zerg played that style and still play it, there are not many "Agressive Zerg" right now, because they're not really successfull with it. You still see people beat Infestor/Broodlord while not being that ahead, it's rare but it happen, it never happened with ghost, snipe wiped out everything lol...Really? I really can't tell if I'm the GodofTroll anymore. Yes. just yes. Zergs still go mutas waaay more than infestors. I'm not going to go through all the replays on Gomtv.net, but I am willing to take you on a challenge that there were more mutals still being used in the last GSL season (both S/A). How can you possibly start an argument if you don't even know your facts? Indeed, how ? Bring it, I'm ready
If I'm going to have to put up my time to your ignorance, you'll have to pay for it.
Sure, I can go through all the replays and prove you wrong, but then I;ll have you publicly gone from this forum for trolling.
It wouldn't be a fair challenge if both sides don't have something to gamble.
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On December 01 2012 13:09 GodTroll wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 13:07 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 13:05 GodTroll wrote:On December 01 2012 12:59 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 12:53 GodTroll wrote:
You know this lasted more than a night and was live on ladder right ? Plenty of people played and watched matchs where Terran just massed Ghost and couldnt lose, the funniest part was that even before Terran discovering that, matchup was already favoring them at 60%, so yes, like you said, it was hilarious.
Maybe not over a night, but you mean 2 weeks before blizzard pulled the trigger and nerfed Terran? Hmm,,,blizz sure is trigger happy when it comes to nerfing terrans. They are not viable, they are situational, you see the occasional game where Zerg punish a greedy opponent by doing that, what usually oppen is the 200 supply Zerg army impale itself on a line of Tank/forcefield and die in a horribly cost effective way, Muta Ling Bane. Period. Last season GSL, there's been way more games of Zs going MLB over Infestors. But yes, the late game Infestor Brood is unbeatable unless the T is ridiculously ahead. Snipe wasnt a slight imbalance, it was complete retardation, Terran were already winning everything since a long time and suddenly just spammed ghost and Zerg had no answer. It was just that simple. Muta Ling Bane is predictable and exhausted, I'm sorry but no, not many Zerg played that style and still play it, there are not many "Agressive Zerg" right now, because they're not really successfull with it. You still see people beat Infestor/Broodlord while not being that ahead, it's rare but it happen, it never happened with ghost, snipe wiped out everything lol...Really? I really can't tell if I'm the GodofTroll anymore. Yes. just yes. Zergs still go mutas waaay more than infestors. I'm not going to go through all the replays on Gomtv.net, but I am willing to take you on a challenge that there were more mutals still being used in the last GSL season (both S/A). How can you possibly start an argument if you don't even know your facts? Indeed, how ? Bring it, I'm ready If I'm going to have to put up my time to your ignorance, you'll have to pay for it. Sure, I can go through all the replays and prove you wrong, but then I;ll have you publicly gone from this forum for trolling. It wouldn't be a fair challenge if both sides don't have something to gamble.
You called me ignorant and challenged me, nice to hear that you dont want to "Waste your time" now. Guess what ? Neither do I.
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On December 01 2012 13:12 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 13:09 GodTroll wrote:On December 01 2012 13:07 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 13:05 GodTroll wrote:On December 01 2012 12:59 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 12:53 GodTroll wrote:
You know this lasted more than a night and was live on ladder right ? Plenty of people played and watched matchs where Terran just massed Ghost and couldnt lose, the funniest part was that even before Terran discovering that, matchup was already favoring them at 60%, so yes, like you said, it was hilarious.
Maybe not over a night, but you mean 2 weeks before blizzard pulled the trigger and nerfed Terran? Hmm,,,blizz sure is trigger happy when it comes to nerfing terrans. They are not viable, they are situational, you see the occasional game where Zerg punish a greedy opponent by doing that, what usually oppen is the 200 supply Zerg army impale itself on a line of Tank/forcefield and die in a horribly cost effective way, Muta Ling Bane. Period. Last season GSL, there's been way more games of Zs going MLB over Infestors. But yes, the late game Infestor Brood is unbeatable unless the T is ridiculously ahead. Snipe wasnt a slight imbalance, it was complete retardation, Terran were already winning everything since a long time and suddenly just spammed ghost and Zerg had no answer. It was just that simple. Muta Ling Bane is predictable and exhausted, I'm sorry but no, not many Zerg played that style and still play it, there are not many "Agressive Zerg" right now, because they're not really successfull with it. You still see people beat Infestor/Broodlord while not being that ahead, it's rare but it happen, it never happened with ghost, snipe wiped out everything lol...Really? I really can't tell if I'm the GodofTroll anymore. Yes. just yes. Zergs still go mutas waaay more than infestors. I'm not going to go through all the replays on Gomtv.net, but I am willing to take you on a challenge that there were more mutals still being used in the last GSL season (both S/A). How can you possibly start an argument if you don't even know your facts? Indeed, how ? Bring it, I'm ready If I'm going to have to put up my time to your ignorance, you'll have to pay for it. Sure, I can go through all the replays and prove you wrong, but then I;ll have you publicly gone from this forum for trolling. It wouldn't be a fair challenge if both sides don't have something to gamble. You called me ignorant and challenged me, nice to hear that you dont want to "Waste your time" now. Guess what ? Neither do I.
Really? I find it a simple binary logic. Either I am right, or wrong. And I am confident in what I say. I think you don't know what you're talking about. You've been spreading horse**** all over this post.
Yet you still refuse to even take into account that you might be wrong. Ignorance is not a sin. Why are you so offended?
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Northern Ireland25082 Posts
On December 01 2012 13:15 GodTroll wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 13:12 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 13:09 GodTroll wrote:On December 01 2012 13:07 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 13:05 GodTroll wrote:On December 01 2012 12:59 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 12:53 GodTroll wrote:
You know this lasted more than a night and was live on ladder right ? Plenty of people played and watched matchs where Terran just massed Ghost and couldnt lose, the funniest part was that even before Terran discovering that, matchup was already favoring them at 60%, so yes, like you said, it was hilarious.
Maybe not over a night, but you mean 2 weeks before blizzard pulled the trigger and nerfed Terran? Hmm,,,blizz sure is trigger happy when it comes to nerfing terrans. They are not viable, they are situational, you see the occasional game where Zerg punish a greedy opponent by doing that, what usually oppen is the 200 supply Zerg army impale itself on a line of Tank/forcefield and die in a horribly cost effective way, Muta Ling Bane. Period. Last season GSL, there's been way more games of Zs going MLB over Infestors. But yes, the late game Infestor Brood is unbeatable unless the T is ridiculously ahead. Snipe wasnt a slight imbalance, it was complete retardation, Terran were already winning everything since a long time and suddenly just spammed ghost and Zerg had no answer. It was just that simple. Muta Ling Bane is predictable and exhausted, I'm sorry but no, not many Zerg played that style and still play it, there are not many "Agressive Zerg" right now, because they're not really successfull with it. You still see people beat Infestor/Broodlord while not being that ahead, it's rare but it happen, it never happened with ghost, snipe wiped out everything lol...Really? I really can't tell if I'm the GodofTroll anymore. Yes. just yes. Zergs still go mutas waaay more than infestors. I'm not going to go through all the replays on Gomtv.net, but I am willing to take you on a challenge that there were more mutals still being used in the last GSL season (both S/A). How can you possibly start an argument if you don't even know your facts? Indeed, how ? Bring it, I'm ready If I'm going to have to put up my time to your ignorance, you'll have to pay for it. Sure, I can go through all the replays and prove you wrong, but then I;ll have you publicly gone from this forum for trolling. It wouldn't be a fair challenge if both sides don't have something to gamble. You called me ignorant and challenged me, nice to hear that you dont want to "Waste your time" now. Guess what ? Neither do I. Really? I find it a simple binary logic. Either I am right, or you are wrong. And I am confident in what I say. I think you don't know what you're talking about. Ignorance is not a sin. Why are you so offended?
It's not that, it's a false dichotomy! This is in reference to the GSL games and the quoted stat, even if factually correct, considering the example of muta useage . It's not a case of this showing that mutas are a better choice than infestors, or worse.
There's actually a third reason, in my view. People are using mutas more, because Terrans are blindly preparing for Infestor play. Zergs, almost all if not all of them will consider infestor unit mixes the 'better' strategical choice, but employ mutas as a kind of metagame exploitation tactic.
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On December 01 2012 13:15 GodTroll wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 13:12 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 13:09 GodTroll wrote:On December 01 2012 13:07 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 13:05 GodTroll wrote:On December 01 2012 12:59 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 12:53 GodTroll wrote:
You know this lasted more than a night and was live on ladder right ? Plenty of people played and watched matchs where Terran just massed Ghost and couldnt lose, the funniest part was that even before Terran discovering that, matchup was already favoring them at 60%, so yes, like you said, it was hilarious.
Maybe not over a night, but you mean 2 weeks before blizzard pulled the trigger and nerfed Terran? Hmm,,,blizz sure is trigger happy when it comes to nerfing terrans. They are not viable, they are situational, you see the occasional game where Zerg punish a greedy opponent by doing that, what usually oppen is the 200 supply Zerg army impale itself on a line of Tank/forcefield and die in a horribly cost effective way, Muta Ling Bane. Period. Last season GSL, there's been way more games of Zs going MLB over Infestors. But yes, the late game Infestor Brood is unbeatable unless the T is ridiculously ahead. Snipe wasnt a slight imbalance, it was complete retardation, Terran were already winning everything since a long time and suddenly just spammed ghost and Zerg had no answer. It was just that simple. Muta Ling Bane is predictable and exhausted, I'm sorry but no, not many Zerg played that style and still play it, there are not many "Agressive Zerg" right now, because they're not really successfull with it. You still see people beat Infestor/Broodlord while not being that ahead, it's rare but it happen, it never happened with ghost, snipe wiped out everything lol...Really? I really can't tell if I'm the GodofTroll anymore. Yes. just yes. Zergs still go mutas waaay more than infestors. I'm not going to go through all the replays on Gomtv.net, but I am willing to take you on a challenge that there were more mutals still being used in the last GSL season (both S/A). How can you possibly start an argument if you don't even know your facts? Indeed, how ? Bring it, I'm ready If I'm going to have to put up my time to your ignorance, you'll have to pay for it. Sure, I can go through all the replays and prove you wrong, but then I;ll have you publicly gone from this forum for trolling. It wouldn't be a fair challenge if both sides don't have something to gamble. You called me ignorant and challenged me, nice to hear that you dont want to "Waste your time" now. Guess what ? Neither do I. Really? I find it a simple binary logic. Either I am right, or you are wrong. And I am confident in what I say. I think you don't know what you're talking about. Ignorance is not a sin. Why are you so offended?
It's not about being offended, it's about people that suddenly feel the need to insult, challenge and brag, and have nothing to back it up after.
So I'm just asking you to back it up. Dont tell me that I'm wrong, show me that I'm wrong. So this thread can stop being monopolized by this futile discussion.
PS : Keep in mind we're talking Zerg here, and not simply ZvT, good luck finding these sick mutaplay in ZvP
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On December 01 2012 13:18 Wombat_NI wrote:
People are using mutas more, because Terrans are blindly preparing for Infestor play.
People use Mutalisks because Mutalisks still work, end of story. They're not “figured out” or something you use to “punish greed” like some biased Zergs claim to justify the current Infestor dominance.
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On December 01 2012 13:19 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 13:15 GodTroll wrote:On December 01 2012 13:12 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 13:09 GodTroll wrote:On December 01 2012 13:07 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 13:05 GodTroll wrote:On December 01 2012 12:59 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 12:53 GodTroll wrote:
You know this lasted more than a night and was live on ladder right ? Plenty of people played and watched matchs where Terran just massed Ghost and couldnt lose, the funniest part was that even before Terran discovering that, matchup was already favoring them at 60%, so yes, like you said, it was hilarious.
Maybe not over a night, but you mean 2 weeks before blizzard pulled the trigger and nerfed Terran? Hmm,,,blizz sure is trigger happy when it comes to nerfing terrans. They are not viable, they are situational, you see the occasional game where Zerg punish a greedy opponent by doing that, what usually oppen is the 200 supply Zerg army impale itself on a line of Tank/forcefield and die in a horribly cost effective way, Muta Ling Bane. Period. Last season GSL, there's been way more games of Zs going MLB over Infestors. But yes, the late game Infestor Brood is unbeatable unless the T is ridiculously ahead. Snipe wasnt a slight imbalance, it was complete retardation, Terran were already winning everything since a long time and suddenly just spammed ghost and Zerg had no answer. It was just that simple. Muta Ling Bane is predictable and exhausted, I'm sorry but no, not many Zerg played that style and still play it, there are not many "Agressive Zerg" right now, because they're not really successfull with it. You still see people beat Infestor/Broodlord while not being that ahead, it's rare but it happen, it never happened with ghost, snipe wiped out everything lol...Really? I really can't tell if I'm the GodofTroll anymore. Yes. just yes. Zergs still go mutas waaay more than infestors. I'm not going to go through all the replays on Gomtv.net, but I am willing to take you on a challenge that there were more mutals still being used in the last GSL season (both S/A). How can you possibly start an argument if you don't even know your facts? Indeed, how ? Bring it, I'm ready If I'm going to have to put up my time to your ignorance, you'll have to pay for it. Sure, I can go through all the replays and prove you wrong, but then I;ll have you publicly gone from this forum for trolling. It wouldn't be a fair challenge if both sides don't have something to gamble. You called me ignorant and challenged me, nice to hear that you dont want to "Waste your time" now. Guess what ? Neither do I. Really? I find it a simple binary logic. Either I am right, or you are wrong. And I am confident in what I say. I think you don't know what you're talking about. Ignorance is not a sin. Why are you so offended? It's not about being offended, it's about people that suddenly feel the need to insult, challenge and brag, and have nothing to back it up after. So I'm just asking you to back it up. Dont tell me that I'm wrong, show me that I'm wrong. So this thread can stop being monopolized by this futile discussion.
You just refuse to even possibly take into account that you might be wrong.
Again, Ignorance is nothing to be mad about.
You ask me to waste my time to enlighten you and save you from your ignorance. In return, what are you going to do? Oh I'm very certain that I got that fact right. I just don't need to put up with fools taunting me.
Tell ya what. If i do waste my precious time to go through all the Vods on Gomtv, you'd better be willing to delete all your horseshit you spread on this forum and apologize to all the terran players for refusing to admit you were wrong.
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On December 01 2012 13:26 GodTroll wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 13:19 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 13:15 GodTroll wrote:On December 01 2012 13:12 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 13:09 GodTroll wrote:On December 01 2012 13:07 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 13:05 GodTroll wrote:On December 01 2012 12:59 Protosnake wrote:On December 01 2012 12:53 GodTroll wrote:
You know this lasted more than a night and was live on ladder right ? Plenty of people played and watched matchs where Terran just massed Ghost and couldnt lose, the funniest part was that even before Terran discovering that, matchup was already favoring them at 60%, so yes, like you said, it was hilarious.
Maybe not over a night, but you mean 2 weeks before blizzard pulled the trigger and nerfed Terran? Hmm,,,blizz sure is trigger happy when it comes to nerfing terrans. They are not viable, they are situational, you see the occasional game where Zerg punish a greedy opponent by doing that, what usually oppen is the 200 supply Zerg army impale itself on a line of Tank/forcefield and die in a horribly cost effective way, Muta Ling Bane. Period. Last season GSL, there's been way more games of Zs going MLB over Infestors. But yes, the late game Infestor Brood is unbeatable unless the T is ridiculously ahead. Snipe wasnt a slight imbalance, it was complete retardation, Terran were already winning everything since a long time and suddenly just spammed ghost and Zerg had no answer. It was just that simple. Muta Ling Bane is predictable and exhausted, I'm sorry but no, not many Zerg played that style and still play it, there are not many "Agressive Zerg" right now, because they're not really successfull with it. You still see people beat Infestor/Broodlord while not being that ahead, it's rare but it happen, it never happened with ghost, snipe wiped out everything lol...Really? I really can't tell if I'm the GodofTroll anymore. Yes. just yes. Zergs still go mutas waaay more than infestors. I'm not going to go through all the replays on Gomtv.net, but I am willing to take you on a challenge that there were more mutals still being used in the last GSL season (both S/A). How can you possibly start an argument if you don't even know your facts? Indeed, how ? Bring it, I'm ready If I'm going to have to put up my time to your ignorance, you'll have to pay for it. Sure, I can go through all the replays and prove you wrong, but then I;ll have you publicly gone from this forum for trolling. It wouldn't be a fair challenge if both sides don't have something to gamble. You called me ignorant and challenged me, nice to hear that you dont want to "Waste your time" now. Guess what ? Neither do I. Really? I find it a simple binary logic. Either I am right, or you are wrong. And I am confident in what I say. I think you don't know what you're talking about. Ignorance is not a sin. Why are you so offended? It's not about being offended, it's about people that suddenly feel the need to insult, challenge and brag, and have nothing to back it up after. So I'm just asking you to back it up. Dont tell me that I'm wrong, show me that I'm wrong. So this thread can stop being monopolized by this futile discussion. You just refuse to even possibly take into account that you might be wrong. Again, Ignorance is nothing to be mad about. You ask me to waste my time to enlighten you and save you from your ignorance. In return, what are you going to do? Oh I'm very certain that I got that fact right. I just don't need to put up with fools taunting me. Tell ya what. If i do waste my precious time to go through all the Vods on Gomtv, you'd better be willing to delete all your horseshit you spread on this forum and apologize to all the terran players for refusing to admit you were wrong.
I'm perfectly ready to accept that I'm wrong, show me that I'm wrong please.
I dont ask you to waste your time, you just insult me so I simply ask you to back it up.
You are "very certain you got the fact right", good for you.
We're not talking Terran here, we're talking Zerg. Before admitting that I'm wrong, someone has to bring something on the table.
Stop telling that I'm wrong and show me I'm wrong please, or just shut up, it's embarrassing.
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Northern Ireland25082 Posts
On December 01 2012 13:23 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 13:18 Wombat_NI wrote:
People are using mutas more, because Terrans are blindly preparing for Infestor play. People use Mutalisks because Mutalisks still work, end of story. They're not “figured out” or something you use to “punish greed” like some biased Zergs claim to justify the current Infestor dominance.
They are sub-optimal. If a Zerg was playing vs a Terran with the fog of war removed, he wouldn't go Mutalisk vs Terran.
Mutalisks are not non-viable, even if scouted. Mutalisk-centric play is not bad, but it's not the best option available to Zergs at present, and every interview I've read in which the question comes up sees Zerg pros agreeing with that. The reason we're seeing them is because Zergs are seeing that Terrans are no longer designing their builds with timings that protect against Mutalisks in mind.
Let's say if Protosses figured out some build that became standard that made the initial Terran medivac push literally useless, like 100% defendable with next to no losses. After a few months of this shift, Protoss players stop preparing for the medivac push as an example of 'standard' good play. You would then see Terrans start to use that medivac timing every so often, because they'd be exploiting the fact that Protoss players stopped including it in their thinking.
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what if the infestor somehow becomes two different units.
one that has FG
other has IT
put neural in there somewhere.
reduce the cost of each by a bit and maybe supplies idk.
zerg still has the exact same ablilties, but can they handle having to micro 2 different units?
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EPT
