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vesicular
United States1310 Posts
On November 30 2012 11:17 eMGmoG wrote: infestor will still be pretty good vs. everything. this is what needs to be changed. its a spellcaster, not a core unit! Exactly, spell caster not core unit. Just increase mana cost and be done with it. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
Hunter seeker missile just gets kited by Corruptors lol. Man, how sad. /edit The changes to Raven Seeker Missles won't be enough. They don't hit anything of value due to A) range B) projectile speed. Once corruptor clumps get in rave range, they should eat a missile. They should split to reduce damage rather than just move command back and forth. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On December 01 2012 07:06 Tryagain4free wrote: Fair enough. But I think by now it is safe to say that undernerfing would be by far the more serious concern. The overwhelming mayority within the community is sick and tired of infestor broodlord. It's not only about balance. It's aswell the situation of a very stale "metagame" in the zerg matchups. Viewer numbers are going down. Player numbers are going down. There was once a joke in early beta: What do you do if marauders don't work? More marauders! I have the feeling, this is even more true in case of infestors. What I find interesting and positive was the balance suggestions in several threads about options to nerf the infestors. There were many different suggestions, but the baseline in the discussion seemed to be: Let's nerf it to bring the infestor in line with other casters, but let's also make sure not to nerf the unit to the ground. This is something new, imo, there was less whine and more constructive thinking. I got the feeling, large parts of the community had learned a lesson from things like the ghost nerf, where qq killed a whole unit in a certain MU. But seeing the options the devs are going to give the playerbase, I can't help but feeling lost. The current suggestions and statements from blizz are painful and don't adress major problems in fields of balance and fun. And if you take a look at recent feedback for hots, especially from terrans, you will find hardly any terran player looking forwards to hots. I'm not a terran player, but I came to the conclusion that they are rightfully disappointed atm. Blizzard needs to step up their game. I'm sorry, but his "test" is pathetic. The overwhelming majority of vocal members of the community, definitely. If you'd like to cite statistics on behalf of the entirety of the community though, feel free to supply them before listing such generalizations. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On December 01 2012 09:19 Teoita wrote: I hope David Kim watched game 3 of XiGua vs Squirtle, i really do. Ditto. That just made me feel sick. | ||
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
i missed it....can I guess? awesome decision making and attacks on defense and attack from protoss to stay in game then gets fungaled and just has to stare at his units die | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On December 01 2012 09:44 SuperYo1000 wrote: i missed it....can I guess? awesome decision making and attacks on defense and attack from protoss to stay in game then gets fungaled and just has to stare at his units die Squirtle was maxed on Carrier Archon Templar with a few Colossi and Void Rays, and had good upgrades and a huge bank vs. XiGua's BL Infestor Corrupter army with a smaller bank. XiGua's army crushed Squirtle's easily. | ||
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snively
United States1159 Posts
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sewergoat
United States97 Posts
![[image loading]](http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1319233/2263308-South-Park-rabble-rabble-rabble.jpg) User was banned for this post. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25085 Posts
The reason (most) of us bitch about the infestor isn't due to fungal being too good, or infested terrans being too good, but that they are too good, and too versatile, taking away the infestor being a useful support unit, and making it obligatory. It's patently, fucking, obvious, that Blizzard are tweaking small things with each of the infestor's abilities to try and figure out to what degree they can nerf each of them, while maintaining the utility of the infestor. If the infestor was like the ghost, when snipe was dominating everything, they WOULD nerf that one ability, 100%. I am convinced of this. However, the infestor being 'overpowered' is in relation to both of its abilities, either that they're too good individually, or too good for one caster to have both, in its current form. Blizzard are obviously trying to isolate the two spells in these testing maps, and trying to find values that balance them, independently. They aren't retarded, they know that they could straight up nerf the infestor, and how they could do that. They are merely trying to think about how this is done, and to what degree this is done through testing out a multitude of ideas. Imagine if the marine was thought of as overpowered, in that the community overwhelming thought so, and demanded action. Any kind of nerf would be enormously complex because the marine affects every single Terran matchup, and close to every single Terran composition. Thus it would have to be a careful, considered process of balancing due to the HUGE impact that getting it wrong would have. Why is this a bad approach? Can somebody please tell me why? I am genuinely curious. | ||
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Xonix
225 Posts
On December 01 2012 11:19 Wombat_NI wrote: I actually cannot believe how retarded people are being about this. I genuinely can't, even posters I normally respect are posting nonsense here. The reason (most) of us bitch about the infestor isn't due to fungal being too good, or infested terrans being too good, but that they are too good, and too versatile, taking away the infestor being a useful support unit, and making it obligatory. It's patently, fucking, obvious, that Blizzard are tweaking small things with each of the infestor's abilities to try and figure out to what degree they can nerf each of them, while maintaining the utility of the infestor. If the infestor was like the ghost, when snipe was dominating everything, they WOULD nerf that one ability, 100%. I am convinced of this. However, the infestor being 'overpowered' is in relation to both of its abilities, either that they're too good individually, or too good for one caster to have both, in its current form. Blizzard are obviously trying to isolate the two spells in these testing maps, and trying to find values that balance them, independently. They aren't retarded, they know that they could straight up nerf the infestor, and how they could do that. They are merely trying to think about how this is done, and to what degree this is done through testing out a multitude of ideas. Imagine if the marine was thought of as overpowered, in that the community overwhelming thought so, and demanded action. Any kind of nerf would be enormously complex because the marine affects every single Terran matchup, and close to every single Terran composition. Thus it would have to be a careful, considered process of balancing due to the HUGE impact that getting it wrong would have. Why is this a bad approach? Can somebody please tell me why? I am genuinely curious. Amen!  | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
On December 01 2012 11:19 Wombat_NI wrote: I actually cannot believe how retarded people are being about this. I genuinely can't, even posters I normally respect are posting nonsense here. The reason (most) of us bitch about the infestor isn't due to fungal being too good, or infested terrans being too good, but that they are too good, and too versatile, taking away the infestor being a useful support unit, and making it obligatory. It's patently, fucking, obvious, that Blizzard are tweaking small things with each of the infestor's abilities to try and figure out to what degree they can nerf each of them, while maintaining the utility of the infestor. If the infestor was like the ghost, when snipe was dominating everything, they WOULD nerf that one ability, 100%. I am convinced of this. However, the infestor being 'overpowered' is in relation to both of its abilities, either that they're too good individually, or too good for one caster to have both, in its current form. Blizzard are obviously trying to isolate the two spells in these testing maps, and trying to find values that balance them, independently. They aren't retarded, they know that they could straight up nerf the infestor, and how they could do that. They are merely trying to think about how this is done, and to what degree this is done through testing out a multitude of ideas. Imagine if the marine was thought of as overpowered, in that the community overwhelming thought so, and demanded action. Any kind of nerf would be enormously complex because the marine affects every single Terran matchup, and close to every single Terran composition. Thus it would have to be a careful, considered process of balancing due to the HUGE impact that getting it wrong would have. Why is this a bad approach? Can somebody please tell me why? I am genuinely curious. It's not, but people are upset because in the past they've nerfed things that are far less of an issue much quicker, harsher, and with less testing. For example Snipe. It was nowhere near as bad as this. It was a soft counter to T3 zerg helping vs tech switches. Games like Mvp vs July were cited as snipe being 'OP'... yet Mvp is and was clearly the superior player at pretty much all points of their SC2 careers, Mvp was already ahead, and July STILL could have killed EVERY GHOST but chose to attack command centers with his ultras (and letting them get sniped to death) instead of just killing 10+ ghosts. Snipe was nerfed because Blizzard didn't like the idea of it being somewhat effective vs T3 (in their own words). Why they're ok with Infestors being good against pretty much every unit in every situation in the game is beyond me. The infestor issue is far worse than any other balance issue in the past as maps and 'learning to play' aren't issues anymore. It completely kills the games playability AND watchability for every ZvX matchup. | ||
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
On December 01 2012 11:19 Wombat_NI wrote: I actually cannot believe how retarded people are being about this. I genuinely can't, even posters I normally respect are posting nonsense here. The reason (most) of us bitch about the infestor isn't due to fungal being too good, or infested terrans being too good, but that they are too good, and too versatile, taking away the infestor being a useful support unit, and making it obligatory. It's patently, fucking, obvious, that Blizzard are tweaking small things with each of the infestor's abilities to try and figure out to what degree they can nerf each of them, while maintaining the utility of the infestor. If the infestor was like the ghost, when snipe was dominating everything, they WOULD nerf that one ability, 100%. I am convinced of this. However, the infestor being 'overpowered' is in relation to both of its abilities, either that they're too good individually, or too good for one caster to have both, in its current form. Blizzard are obviously trying to isolate the two spells in these testing maps, and trying to find values that balance them, independently. They aren't retarded, they know that they could straight up nerf the infestor, and how they could do that. They are merely trying to think about how this is done, and to what degree this is done through testing out a multitude of ideas. Imagine if the marine was thought of as overpowered, in that the community overwhelming thought so, and demanded action. Any kind of nerf would be enormously complex because the marine affects every single Terran matchup, and close to every single Terran composition. Thus it would have to be a careful, considered process of balancing due to the HUGE impact that getting it wrong would have. Why is this a bad approach? Can somebody please tell me why? I am genuinely curious. so your saying try little itty bitty changes for a week....Its contradicts itself. Maybe if blizz had actually been this way the entire time but protoss/terran have been the victim of kneejerk balance patches over the last 1.5 years but when a unit gets OP for zerg they take their sweet ass time....ya. The rage is just boiling over | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On December 01 2012 11:51 oxxo wrote: It's not, but people are upset because in the past they've nerfed things that are far less of an issue much quicker, harsher, and with less testing. For example Snipe. It was nowhere near as bad as this. It was a soft counter to T3 zerg helping vs tech switches. Games like Mvp vs July were cited as snipe being 'OP'... yet Mvp is and was clearly the superior player at pretty much all points of their SC2 careers, Mvp was already ahead, and July STILL could have killed EVERY GHOST but chose to attack command centers with his ultras (and letting them get sniped to death) instead of just killing 10+ ghosts. Snipe was nerfed because Blizzard didn't like the idea of it being somewhat effective vs T3 (in their own words). Why they're ok with Infestors being good against pretty much every unit in every situation in the game is beyond me. The infestor issue is far worse than any other balance issue in the past as maps and 'learning to play' aren't issues anymore. It completely kills the games playability AND watchability for every ZvX matchup. No not really, they're upset because they're interpreting this specific call to action map the end-all nerf because they're too impatient to see a proper solution. The past is for the most part irrelevant. They have nothing to gain demanding Blizzard be hung on a cross with each balance patch Blizzard doesn't cater to their every whim there afterwards. It's pretty ridiculous. | ||
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`phobiA
51 Posts
It has gotten to the point where I am rooting for Terrans and Protoss against my beloved Zerg pros. I want to see the shift of power again for the sake of this game. While it may be frustrating, it is necessary. | ||
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GodTroll
Canada41 Posts
On December 01 2012 11:19 Wombat_NI wrote: I actually cannot believe how retarded people are being about this. I genuinely can't, even posters I normally respect are posting nonsense here. The reason (most) of us bitch about the infestor isn't due to fungal being too good, or infested terrans being too good, but that they are too good, and too versatile, taking away the infestor being a useful support unit, and making it obligatory. It's patently, fucking, obvious, that Blizzard are tweaking small things with each of the infestor's abilities to try and figure out to what degree they can nerf each of them, while maintaining the utility of the infestor. If the infestor was like the ghost, when snipe was dominating everything, they WOULD nerf that one ability, 100%. I am convinced of this. However, the infestor being 'overpowered' is in relation to both of its abilities, either that they're too good individually, or too good for one caster to have both, in its current form. Blizzard are obviously trying to isolate the two spells in these testing maps, and trying to find values that balance them, independently. They aren't retarded, they know that they could straight up nerf the infestor, and how they could do that. They are merely trying to think about how this is done, and to what degree this is done through testing out a multitude of ideas. Imagine if the marine was thought of as overpowered, in that the community overwhelming thought so, and demanded action. Any kind of nerf would be enormously complex because the marine affects every single Terran matchup, and close to every single Terran composition. Thus it would have to be a careful, considered process of balancing due to the HUGE impact that getting it wrong would have. Why is this a bad approach? Can somebody please tell me why? I am genuinely curious. Really? ghost snipe was dominating everything? H'ok, let's say they were coherently broken for the sake of argument. If you think blizzard should take small incremental steps to nerf units, how would that justify nerfing the ghost to oblivion by nerfing snipe to being totally useless, while buffing the units(T3 Z) that were countered by snipe in a single patch? How about not giving the other races time to adjust instead of nerf hammering based on a single tournament result? It's been almost a year, and the consensus is- infestors are broken. Period. I don't think there's anyone out there that can defend this argument. Yet, Blizzard has refused to do anything about them, while having been nerfing every single terran unit that cycles into the metagame instantly. Either you've yet to realize the flaw in your logic, or you're suffering from invincible ignorance fallacy and don't want to admit the truth. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25085 Posts
On December 01 2012 11:53 SuperYo1000 wrote: so your saying try little itty bitty changes for a week....Its contradicts itself. Maybe if blizz had actually been this way the entire time but protoss/terran have been the victim of kneejerk balance patches over the last 1.5 years but when a unit gets OP for zerg they take their sweet ass time....ya. The rage is just boiling over I made a post earlier explaining why this is wrong, which I will restate. Not that you're an idiot or anything, you may be simply unaware of Blizzard's statements. Basically, people were moaning that Blizzard were actively patching too hard, instead of allowing the metagame to settle, or for innovative solutions to be found to problems that people were having. I'll create a kind of chronological flowchart kind of thing to explain this. 1. The period of Terran dominance, at least at a GSL level. People recall this period I'm sure, they were doing super well and were nerfed and nerfed and nerfed some more. This eventually crossed a line, to the degree that people, especially Terrans were getting pissed off with how Blizzard were approaching balancing out the race. A common, common complaint was that Blizzard were bringing out patches to nerf cool strategies, without letting the metagame and players figure out whether they could deal with these strategies with the tools given to them. A good example of a change that happened in this time is the ghost snipe nerf, or prior to that, the addition of energy to Thors to stop Thor timings vP. It may/may not have been broken, but players were pissed off that as a community we weren't given the time to at least try to find non-patch solutions. 2. A change in Blizzard's approach to balance and patching. They took the feedback I mentioned in the last sentence to heart, and the Queen/Overlord patch was put out. They mentioned to us that they were pursuing a new 'wait-and-see' philosophy from now on, in terms of approach balance 3. The period of Zerg 'dominance'. This is a period that Blizzard waited to see what would happen, and if people figured out how to deal with Zergs. This is also consistent with the aforementioned change in approach. It's unfortunate for the other races for sure, but it's not in any way a result of any pro-Zerg or anti-other race bias from Blizzard. They adopted a change in philosophy, in terms of balancing with patches, and it's entirely coincidental/unintentional that the period after this was one that Zergs were doing extremely well in. | ||
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Corrosive
Canada3741 Posts
On December 01 2012 11:19 Wombat_NI wrote: I actually cannot believe how retarded people are being about this. I genuinely can't, even posters I normally respect are posting nonsense here. The reason (most) of us bitch about the infestor isn't due to fungal being too good, or infested terrans being too good, but that they are too good, and too versatile, taking away the infestor being a useful support unit, and making it obligatory. It's patently, fucking, obvious, that Blizzard are tweaking small things with each of the infestor's abilities to try and figure out to what degree they can nerf each of them, while maintaining the utility of the infestor. If the infestor was like the ghost, when snipe was dominating everything, they WOULD nerf that one ability, 100%. I am convinced of this. However, the infestor being 'overpowered' is in relation to both of its abilities, either that they're too good individually, or too good for one caster to have both, in its current form. Blizzard are obviously trying to isolate the two spells in these testing maps, and trying to find values that balance them, independently. They aren't retarded, they know that they could straight up nerf the infestor, and how they could do that. They are merely trying to think about how this is done, and to what degree this is done through testing out a multitude of ideas. Imagine if the marine was thought of as overpowered, in that the community overwhelming thought so, and demanded action. Any kind of nerf would be enormously complex because the marine affects every single Terran matchup, and close to every single Terran composition. Thus it would have to be a careful, considered process of balancing due to the HUGE impact that getting it wrong would have. Why is this a bad approach? Can somebody please tell me why? I am genuinely curious. because this change does literally nothing. | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On December 01 2012 11:19 Wombat_NI wrote: I actually cannot believe how retarded people are being about this. I genuinely can't, even posters I normally respect are posting nonsense here. The reason (most) of us bitch about the infestor isn't due to fungal being too good, or infested terrans being too good, but that they are too good, and too versatile, taking away the infestor being a useful support unit, and making it obligatory. It's patently, fucking, obvious, that Blizzard are tweaking small things with each of the infestor's abilities to try and figure out to what degree they can nerf each of them, while maintaining the utility of the infestor. If the infestor was like the ghost, when snipe was dominating everything, they WOULD nerf that one ability, 100%. I am convinced of this. However, the infestor being 'overpowered' is in relation to both of its abilities, either that they're too good individually, or too good for one caster to have both, in its current form. Blizzard are obviously trying to isolate the two spells in these testing maps, and trying to find values that balance them, independently. They aren't retarded, they know that they could straight up nerf the infestor, and how they could do that. They are merely trying to think about how this is done, and to what degree this is done through testing out a multitude of ideas. Imagine if the marine was thought of as overpowered, in that the community overwhelming thought so, and demanded action. Any kind of nerf would be enormously complex because the marine affects every single Terran matchup, and close to every single Terran composition. Thus it would have to be a careful, considered process of balancing due to the HUGE impact that getting it wrong would have. Why is this a bad approach? Can somebody please tell me why? I am genuinely curious. "After testing the adjustment to Fungal Growth, we found it to be too big of a change." | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On December 01 2012 11:19 Wombat_NI wrote: I actually cannot believe how retarded people are being about this. I genuinely can't, even posters I normally respect are posting nonsense here. The reason (most) of us bitch about the infestor isn't due to fungal being too good, or infested terrans being too good, but that they are too good, and too versatile, taking away the infestor being a useful support unit, and making it obligatory. It's patently, fucking, obvious, that Blizzard are tweaking small things with each of the infestor's abilities to try and figure out to what degree they can nerf each of them, while maintaining the utility of the infestor. If the infestor was like the ghost, when snipe was dominating everything, they WOULD nerf that one ability, 100%. I am convinced of this. However, the infestor being 'overpowered' is in relation to both of its abilities, either that they're too good individually, or too good for one caster to have both, in its current form. Blizzard are obviously trying to isolate the two spells in these testing maps, and trying to find values that balance them, independently. They aren't retarded, they know that they could straight up nerf the infestor, and how they could do that. They are merely trying to think about how this is done, and to what degree this is done through testing out a multitude of ideas. Imagine if the marine was thought of as overpowered, in that the community overwhelming thought so, and demanded action. Any kind of nerf would be enormously complex because the marine affects every single Terran matchup, and close to every single Terran composition. Thus it would have to be a careful, considered process of balancing due to the HUGE impact that getting it wrong would have. Why is this a bad approach? Can somebody please tell me why? I am genuinely curious. Because Blizzard balances through depth results, not breadth. The past balance changes have been trying different things until they find something that "works," and not trying different things to find what works best. They took their first fungal change, decided that fungal was fine (essentially), and decided to approach IT instead. | ||
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