monk: Just talked to Dustin and did an interview. There's a mistake in this translation. He said in the test map, Psionic units will be unaffected by Fungal, not Neural. Also, they're looking into a lot of changes for the infestor, including removing Neural entirely in HotS.
Hmm good points, they would act differently in person. And also even those who might express disappointment may actually be friendly in person, to give DB their thoughts and such.
Also, great points that he also has to worry about much more than just competitive 1v1 esports. People should stop hating on him like that one time when he said he didn't know or hasn't seen NP vs MS to be that often. It's a lot of work to manage something, and if he's managing several teams/departments, then ya... let alone him trying to bring them to make a coherent package like he says.
(Anyone remember when he said why the thor was nerfed? cus it was too big and made it hard to see units besides it like marines, and thus they don't want to see mass thors? And he also mentioned ultra needing to be that big aesthetically, and the colossi has to stay as an air unit because it's too tall. So it seems he gives some space, i guess u can say, to the individual teams, instead of rejecting everything if it's not exactly how he wants it. Anyways, dealing with people is harder than many may think.)
Not being able to Fungal Psionic will a)fuck up ZvZ so badly its not even funny b)will make ZvP unplayable C)won't really help TvZ. I don't even want to go and talk about Sentry being immune, but Warp Prism harras will become basicly risk free.
I hope that this is just their strategy of lets propose absurdal change so when we will implement fungal as projectile it won't cause mass whinning couse compared to this it seems at least semi reasonable.
On November 19 2012 10:58 neoghaleon55 wrote: I don't agree with fungals not affecting sentries. Sentries are obnoxious enough as it is. Without fungals, how will zerg kill them?
On November 19 2012 10:40 SgtSlick wrote: List of psionic units:
Protoss Sentry High Templar Dark Templar Archon Warp Prism Mothership
Terran Ghost
Zerg Queen Infestor
So terran would get 1 unit immune to fungal growth while Protoss would get 6? Hmm, that doesn't seem fair.
To me it seems like Terran has more of a problem with fungal while Protoss has more of a problem with infested marines. Terran can mass repair bunkers and pf's to counter infested marines but its units have low hp.
To tell you the truth, ghost seem most suited to deal with infestors if they were immune to fungle. Snipe has insane range and the only reason terrans don't use it is fungle and the high cost/risk of ghost. HTs have feedback, but are also as slow as a Thor.
if ghosts become immune to fungal that would help bring them back in the late game since once your group of ghosts get fungled your pretty much screwed.
On November 19 2012 11:15 Narw wrote: Not being able to Fungal Psionic will a)fuck up ZvZ so badly its not even funny b)will make ZvP unplayable C)won't really help TvZ. I don't even want to go and talk about Sentry being immune, but Warp Prism harras will become basicly risk free.
I hope that this is just their strategy of lets propose absurdal change so when we will implement fungal as projectile it won't cause mass whinning couse compared to this it seems at least semi reasonable.
They could always remove psionic from Warp Prism. Ghosts can't snipe it as it is, and nothing else cares about psionic. Anyway, this is why they make test maps, so people can do more than theorycraft about it.
On November 19 2012 10:58 neoghaleon55 wrote: I don't agree with fungals not affecting sentries. Sentries are obnoxious enough as it is. Without fungals, how will zerg kill them?
Remove the Psionic attribute from Sentries. Problem solved.
DRG: So apparently Zerg is OP and yet the Protosses advance yet again [WCS/BWC]. DRG: Hey crackhead Genius, you watching? Genius: Look how awesome Stephano is, stating that infestor/brood lord should be nerfed like that. DRG: Is that why he lost to HerO? He was unable to use that imba infestor/brood lord composition? Genius: Whether or not a Zerg gets pushed is up to the Zerg. Almost every single grand master Zerg never gets pushed, DRG: Whether or not a Protoss can push is also up to the Protoss. Did you ever think perhaps you're the reason that the Zerg never gets pushed? Genius: It's more important to defend... DRG: I think breaking through is more important.
On November 19 2012 14:48 neoghaleon55 wrote: DRG and Genius discuss balance:
Translation thanks to SeeKeR:
DRG: So apparently Zerg is OP and yet the Protosses advance yet again [WCS/BWC]. DRG: Hey crackhead Genius, you watching? Genius: Look how awesome Stephano is, stating that infestor/brood lord should be nerfed like that. DRG: Is that why he lost to HerO? He was unable to use that imba infestor/brood lord composition? Genius: Whether or not a Zerg gets pushed is up to the Zerg. Almost every single grand master Zerg never gets pushed, DRG: Whether or not a Protoss can push is also up to the Protoss. Did you ever think perhaps you're the reason that the Zerg never gets pushed? Genius: It's more important to defend... DRG: I think breaking through is more important.
Too many people here in the thread are forgetting the main point ... which ISNT that ability X or Y is supposedly OP or so, but rather that IT ISNT FUN.
Thats the main point behind Fungal and Forcefield and its only when they are "abused" (15+ Infestors; godly Forcefields against a stupid opponent or on a ramp) when "overpowered or not" becomes an issue. Being locked down completely isnt fun and both of these spells do that.
Being swamped by 40 Infested Terrans (free units) when you have an immobile mech army and cant run from them isnt fun either. One Infestor can drop up to eight Infested Terrans - which are superior to Marines in their dps - and yet they cost only two supply themselves? It should be a no brainer that there is something wrong ...
So regardless of "OP or not", Blizzard has to do something about these three crappy abilities ...
It's opinion, but fun is more important. We can just play Rock Paper Scissors Online for extreme balance and absolute boringness. Extreme imbalance is bad of course, but whatever imbalance SC2 might have isn't even close to extreme. It's a fairly balanced game. Having your army made immobile and take damage by something impossible to dodge isn't fun, whether it's balanced or not.
On November 19 2012 19:49 pzea469 wrote: It's opinion, but fun is more important. We can just play Rock Paper Scissors Online for extreme balance and absolute boringness. Extreme imbalance is bad of course, but whatever imbalance SC2 might have isn't even close to extreme. It's a fairly balanced game. Having your army made immobile and take damage by something impossible to dodge isn't fun, whether it's balanced or not.
True, but it's fun for the zerg to ensnare units.
On November 19 2012 15:16 Rabiator wrote: Too many people here in the thread are forgetting the main point ... which ISNT that ability X or Y is supposedly OP or so, but rather that IT ISNT FUN.
Getting stomped isn't fun. Without abilities which look total OP the game would be much less fun. We do need abilities which can kill a lot of units fast to have such moments when someone who was ahead all the time loses his army and subsequently looses the game.
Otherwise it would be too boring to watch the game played out while it was won by player X about 15 minutes ago.
On November 19 2012 19:49 pzea469 wrote: It's opinion, but fun is more important. We can just play Rock Paper Scissors Online for extreme balance and absolute boringness. Extreme imbalance is bad of course, but whatever imbalance SC2 might have isn't even close to extreme. It's a fairly balanced game. Having your army made immobile and take damage by something impossible to dodge isn't fun, whether it's balanced or not.
On November 19 2012 15:16 Rabiator wrote: Too many people here in the thread are forgetting the main point ... which ISNT that ability X or Y is supposedly OP or so, but rather that IT ISNT FUN.
Getting stomped isn't fun. Without abilities which look total OP the game would be much less fun. We do need abilities which can kill a lot of units fast to have such moments when someone who was ahead all the time loses his army and subsequently looses the game.
Otherwise it would be too boring to watch the game played out while it was won by player X about 15 minutes ago.
What a huge false dichotomy. You don't need giant explosions everywhere with things dying really fast like we have now. You just need things to be interesting and impressive to watch with mechanics that make you respect the pros who master them. It's hard for me to get hyped for someone sentry dropping and repeatedly FFing a one FF wide ramp for 2 minutes while they kill everything in the main base. It's hard for me to really care or applaud someone that FFs an army into a tiny little area and slaughters it with 4 attacks from a couple colossi.
On November 19 2012 19:49 pzea469 wrote: It's opinion, but fun is more important. We can just play Rock Paper Scissors Online for extreme balance and absolute boringness. Extreme imbalance is bad of course, but whatever imbalance SC2 might have isn't even close to extreme. It's a fairly balanced game. Having your army made immobile and take damage by something impossible to dodge isn't fun, whether it's balanced or not.
True, but it's fun for the zerg to ensnare units.
On November 19 2012 15:16 Rabiator wrote: Too many people here in the thread are forgetting the main point ... which ISNT that ability X or Y is supposedly OP or so, but rather that IT ISNT FUN.
Getting stomped isn't fun. Without abilities which look total OP the game would be much less fun. We do need abilities which can kill a lot of units fast to have such moments when someone who was ahead all the time loses his army and subsequently looses the game.
Otherwise it would be too boring to watch the game played out while it was won by player X about 15 minutes ago.
What a huge false dichotomy. You don't need giant explosions everywhere with things dying really fast like we have now. You just need things to be interesting and impressive to watch with mechanics that make you respect the pros who master them. It's hard for me to get hyped for someone sentry dropping and repeatedly FFing a one FF wide ramp for 2 minutes while they kill everything in the main base. It's hard for me to really care or applaud someone that FFs an army into a tiny little area and slaughters it with 4 attacks from a couple colossi.
I did not mention giant explosions. I agree that it is debatable if the current options of killing a lot of units fast require enough mechanical skill to justify the effectiveness.
EPT
