On November 07 2012 02:56 Tppz! wrote: Is it possible to get translation of the comments by the Koreans on this article?
Some comments by Korean Users:
- Swarm host is just... too disgusting....If they maintain this design, i'm pretty sure some people hate it to see them" - Wow.. Engine... - hmm I still think they should add new unit for terran to feel more like an "expansion pack". - There are controversies about the swarm host design but in terms of its abilities, they are very interesting indeed. - Yea, improve the privacy of the players! It's not interesting to see bunch of barcodes dominating the ladder rankings - Interview TL/DR : We are aware of the problems, but it's not enough to be patched. - wow... Engine is helping them a lot... - It is impossible to break BL, Infestor, Swarm host composition..
swarm host to disgusting, this is quite funny hearing this. This is when you know the starcraft 2 art team nailed this one perfect, afterall zerg units are supposed to be extremely disgusting. Pat on the back artists :D
Zerglings are actually really cute. Both in original and SC2.
The problem with zerg late game is NOT the fact that BL/Infestor is almost impossible to beat, it's that it makes the game EXTREMELY boring. EXTREMELY.
The lack of mobility that that composition imposes on the other race is simply disgusting. There is no amazing "micro" possibilities against that composition. Protoss need 1 lucky vortex. And even then, is that fun to watch? No, not really. It only shows that the zerg was stupid and clumped his broodlords. Terran simply can't beat BL/Infestor anymore without getting extremely lucky (i.e. Flash vs. Life on Ohana). Vikings are simply terrible, there was a reason Ghosts were needed. Were ghosts fun to watch against broodlords? No, not really.
Anyway, to make my point clear, Broodlord/Infestor does not need to get "balanced" it needs to be REMOVED. The game design is terrible. I hear David Kim mentioning Tempests.... who cares? Does tempests beating on broodlords a screen length away excite anyone? Is it even going to allow good micro? The answer is: NO.
The reason BW PvZ was awesome because it allowed for such amazing back and forth fights. No composition was overly strong and it was a clash in every battle. everyone hates reminiscing about BW, but they really need to use the most successful RTS on the planet as an example of how to design their new one.
They are doing well in some things (it's cool they want to redesign VR and Carrier), but it's painful that he doesn't want to nerf the infestor AT ALL. I know the term "buff everything, nerf nothing!" is a common design theme that gets posted a bunch on reddit, but the insane power of fungal with both rooting and aoe damage is undeniable at this point. Everyone agrees comebacks through consistent, smart play should be possible, but having your units clumped ONCE and then having the Zerg decimate your army with f+click is silly. Punish players for being careless, but punish them once. 40 infestors in Leenock v Bomber?
On November 07 2012 03:36 Sakray wrote: The way he says "Swarm Host allows multitasking" made me laugh a bit, how a unit that you just need to burrow then you're done can allow multitasking ? It's the opposite, you burrow them somewhere to put pressure on then you're free to focus on macro instead of doing both at the same time. I especially remember a replay of White-Ra against an Italian zerg when the Z just massed SW, put them in front of WR's 3rd and then just macro, while WR had to micro and macro a shitlot to not die to the free units that were mauling him :/
Do you even have access to the beta? You have no idea what you're talking about. Swarm Hosts have ridiculous micro potential that few people have tapped into yet.
For example, the hosts can be uprooted after pushing out locusts, they can walk with the locusts to their new destination or retreat to safer grounds to spawn more. The locusts themselves can be manually micro'd like roaches.
Swarm Hosts also forces a position game much like siegetanks. Since locusts are slow and are sent into a single direction, the swarmhosts can be flanked from the side or the back during the cooldown time.
How can a game be balanced when a race gets free units in the late game? Zerg can spawn units in excess of 300 food for free but the other 2 races are limited to 200. This is a fatal design flaw. The fact that the best Zerg unit is a marine is the most stupid thing ever. Why they don't give Terran free mines in late game? Why only Zerg gets freebies? Also abilities that makes unit movement impossible should be removed. Terran needs some decent spells in the late game like the other 2 races. (AOE damage) PS: Remove the god dame nuke from the game. It's a joke.
On November 07 2012 02:47 mishimaBeef wrote: i think BL festor is more of a problem because of zerg having two strong anti air options and a backup anti air option.
Corruptor + Infested Terran = good anti air Offensive Queens for transfuse = also decent support anti air
Hence, broodlords crush the ground and zerg can react to the air threats....
Maybe if corruptor DID NOT morph into brood lord?
EDIT:
what i think would be cool: fast moving, mutated "scourge" with no attacks... they morph into either corruptor or brood lords
scale cost accordingly... (i.e. mutated scourge cost is low, corruptor morph medium, brood lord morph high)
That's a great solution which would fix the game and make it more exciting, problem is it's similar to BW zerg air units and blizzard is stubborn about going back.
Lol does David Kim seriously think that zvp is the only imbalanced matchup? Does the fact that he didn't mention zvt mean that he thinks that mu is fine? The whole race is fundamentally design flawed. Infestor/BL/corruptor is too strong regardless of the mu. If he doesn't see that then I think he should seriously consider changing jobs. Also, this "the w/l ratio is fine" garbage is getting really old. Most importantly, tournaments live their own life and there are too few of them to make them statistically significant. Start looking at GM race distribution disparities...
Did people really think that David Kim was going to come out and say:
"We have reviewed Infestor/Broodlord and found it to be totally imbalanced and boring to watch. All the zerg wins in the last four months since the queen buff are pretty much invalid. We are going to be nerfing both the infestor and BL, likely 2 days before the Blizzard World Cup on Nov. 17, 2012. At that point, we will see if the patch-zergs can win without those clearly broken units"
On November 07 2012 04:05 Plansix wrote: Did people really think that David Kim was going to come out and say:
"We have reviewed Infestor/Broodlord and found it to be totally imbalanced and boring to watch. All the zerg wins in the last four months since the queen buff are pretty much invalid. We are going to be nerfing both the infestor and BL, likely 2 days before the Blizzard World Cup on Nov. 17, 2012. At that point, we will see if the patch-zergs can win without those clearly broken units"
Did people really expect that?
no but we where hoping for
" we are looking into lategame zerg infestor/BL compositions and appreciate all the feedback"
On November 07 2012 04:00 Suzido wrote: Lol does David Kim seriously think that zvp is the only imbalanced matchup?
That's not a fair accusation. The interviewer only asked about ZvP.
This is true. However, that's also why I wrote "Does the fact that he didn't mention zvt mean that he thinks that mu is fine?" If he would've thought otherwise he could've cut the interviewer off after all those questions about pvz for instance, and said something along the lines of "It is indeed difficult to PvZ late game without the Mothership's vortex. ... It is also obviously very difficult for terran to deal with z lategame". With that long discussion about balance and the state of z, one would suspect he would also mention tvz if he thought that mu was imbalanced as well.
On November 07 2012 04:05 Plansix wrote: Did people really think that David Kim was going to come out and say:
"We have reviewed Infestor/Broodlord and found it to be totally imbalanced and boring to watch. All the zerg wins in the last four months since the queen buff are pretty much invalid. We are going to be nerfing both the infestor and BL, likely 2 days before the Blizzard World Cup on Nov. 17, 2012. At that point, we will see if the patch-zergs can win without those clearly broken units"
Did people really expect that?
Well, the truth would be nice. Patchzergs disgust me almost as much as BL/Infestor.
On November 07 2012 04:05 Plansix wrote: Did people really think that David Kim was going to come out and say:
"We have reviewed Infestor/Broodlord and found it to be totally imbalanced and boring to watch. All the zerg wins in the last four months since the queen buff are pretty much invalid. We are going to be nerfing both the infestor and BL, likely 2 days before the Blizzard World Cup on Nov. 17, 2012. At that point, we will see if the patch-zergs can win without those clearly broken units"
Did people really expect that?
no but we where hoping for
" we are looking into lategame zerg infestor/BL compositions and appreciate all the feedback"
not
"its fine, winrates solve all"
That is pretty much what DK said, but then backed it up with some recent tournament results. He said it might be a problem and it is something they are looking into. Blizzard has an a tournament in less than two weeks which is the world championship, they are not going to change anything or even say they are going to change anything until that is done.
On November 07 2012 04:05 Plansix wrote: Did people really think that David Kim was going to come out and say:
"We have reviewed Infestor/Broodlord and found it to be totally imbalanced and boring to watch. All the zerg wins in the last four months since the queen buff are pretty much invalid. We are going to be nerfing both the infestor and BL, likely 2 days before the Blizzard World Cup on Nov. 17, 2012. At that point, we will see if the patch-zergs can win without those clearly broken units"
Did people really expect that?
no but we where hoping for
" we are looking into lategame zerg infestor/BL compositions and appreciate all the feedback"
not
"its fine, winrates solve all"
more like "winrates are fine" (probably need more sample size from highest level (GSL/OSL) which will take a few months).. by waiting these months they can account for meta-game/unsolved strategic elements
i want to remind everybody that blizzard promised us units that will require a lot of micro but gave us two units that burrow and auto-do what they do - the widow mine and the swarm host...
and most probably we wont see a patch that fixes broken zerg.I've been watching so many ZvZ finals lately (life/leenock,nerchio/bly) and every gm server is flooded with patchzergs its kind of getting boring.
and yes,they should redesign void rays,because currently they are horrible.
AND YES,MR DAVID KIM,I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION:
theoretically if a toss player wins 100% of his 2 base all ins and the zerg player wins 100% of the games he spines up and makes BLFESTOR that makes 50 % overall ratio but is the game balanced that way?
EPT
