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ExPresident
Profile Joined January 2010
United States215 Posts
October 31 2012 21:24 GMT
#41
Good thread, but I think a lot of teams already do academies or community groups, they just don't get a lot of attention. A community isn't a community without its members and we need teams that are accessible by everyone. I think a big problem we have is so many people expect to be paid for playing when it just isn't feasible. It is also, in my humble opinion, why we see new teams pop up with decent rosters only to fade away fairly quickly, due to the pressure of contracts they can't afford to maintain.

At any rate, to add to what others have said, my team, NOOB Gaming (No One Owns Better) http://www.noobgaming.org, also has a community group. We do things a bit different tho than most teams with the way our community group operates that I think benefits them. Many of these plans start Nov. 1st as our team is fairly young. We have an 8 member A-Team of Masters and above, a 30 man B-Team of Platinum and above, and then a C-Team which is our community group.

On November 1st, after a successful test month, we start our "Activity Ladder". A-Team members and B-Team members are required to participate and any Gold league C-Team player or above can participate if they wish. C-Team members are not required to participate. If any Masters or above B-Team player outscores an A-Team member at the end of the month they can take that A-Team members position, and the last 10 B-Team positions are also up for grabs by C-Team members who can outscore members of the B-Team. The members earn points by simply playing. We award various points for tournament wins, playing in clan wars, showing up as a sub for clan wars, just participating in tournaments, and even playing fellow members in best of 3's. Attending practices also earns points for the members and they simply claim the points via a submissions form on the site.

What this allows us to do is build a strong team off of members who stick with us overtime. We allow them to be involved by participating in the Ladder at a very low level (Gold) and also play higher level members to earn points, which works for both of them and gives them good experience. Through this they could essentially move from a casual Community Group member to an A or B team position through activity and practice. The system works very well.

At any rate I think it would be good for teams to do stuff like this as it promotes a better community and gets more people involved. Having a community group is essentially a player farm for teams, just like we see in professional sports. It should be no different here.

long live e-sports!
WarEagle
Profile Joined March 2011
United States130 Posts
October 31 2012 22:06 GMT
#42
On November 01 2012 06:24 ExPresident wrote:
Good thread, but I think a lot of teams already do academies or community groups, they just don't get a lot of attention. A community isn't a community without its members and we need teams that are accessible by everyone. I think a big problem we have is so many people expect to be paid for playing when it just isn't feasible. It is also, in my humble opinion, why we see new teams pop up with decent rosters only to fade away fairly quickly, due to the pressure of contracts they can't afford to maintain.

At any rate, to add to what others have said, my team, NOOB Gaming (No One Owns Better) http://www.noobgaming.org, also has a community group. We do things a bit different tho than most teams with the way our community group operates that I think benefits them. Many of these plans start Nov. 1st as our team is fairly young. We have an 8 member A-Team of Masters and above, a 30 man B-Team of Platinum and above, and then a C-Team which is our community group.

On November 1st, after a successful test month, we start our "Activity Ladder". A-Team members and B-Team members are required to participate and any Gold league C-Team player or above can participate if they wish. C-Team members are not required to participate. If any Masters or above B-Team player outscores an A-Team member at the end of the month they can take that A-Team members position, and the last 10 B-Team positions are also up for grabs by C-Team members who can outscore members of the B-Team. The members earn points by simply playing. We award various points for tournament wins, playing in clan wars, showing up as a sub for clan wars, just participating in tournaments, and even playing fellow members in best of 3's. Attending practices also earns points for the members and they simply claim the points via a submissions form on the site.

What this allows us to do is build a strong team off of members who stick with us overtime. We allow them to be involved by participating in the Ladder at a very low level (Gold) and also play higher level members to earn points, which works for both of them and gives them good experience. Through this they could essentially move from a casual Community Group member to an A or B team position through activity and practice. The system works very well.

At any rate I think it would be good for teams to do stuff like this as it promotes a better community and gets more people involved. Having a community group is essentially a player farm for teams, just like we see in professional sports. It should be no different here.

long live e-sports!


I checked out a lot of teams websites and for the most part the majority of the professional teams don't have active communities. Some of them have academies, but they are very serious, high level B-Teams (and I think most pro teams should have serious academies like these). Others had community forums for the fans, but are largely unused. Very, very few had both. Yes I did find teams that have these qualities we've talked about but not really among the brand name professional teams.

The system your team has pretty much describes to a 'T' what I think all pro teams should have. I can't even think of anything to add to it at the moment.


Speaking towards some of the earlier posts, regarding official academies being a big commitment, needing to be taken seriously, shouldn't be too big, etc., I agree with all that. The point I had originally tried to make is that I think pro teams should have both the serious academies, as well as a fan driven community much like the one described above. If you want to look at it a different way you could even call them official fan clubs. Bottom line is I think you would find tons of players who would be chomping at the bits to be a part of the official Team Liquid Community B-Team, the SEED Gaming A-Team, or whoever their favorite teams are and the systems those communities choose to create.

I also think I saw someone mention teams not wanting to be officiated with a community that could possibly make them look bad, hurt their image with sponsors, etc. I don't really believe that. I mean Team Liquid already has the largest SC2 community and therefore already practically houses practically every BM person that exists in the social Starcraft stratosphere and you don't see it hurting their image. A simple 'the actions and views of our Official Community/Fan Club members is in no way affiliated with the Official Team' agreement upon signing up for the community would cover all the bases for teams and their sponsors.
KiF1rE
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States964 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-31 23:16:25
October 31 2012 23:14 GMT
#43
On November 01 2012 07:06 WarEagle wrote:
I also think I saw someone mention teams not wanting to be officiated with a community that could possibly make them look bad, hurt their image with sponsors, etc. I don't really believe that. I mean Team Liquid already has the largest SC2 community and therefore already practically houses practically every BM person that exists in the social Starcraft stratosphere and you don't see it hurting their image. A simple 'the actions and views of our Official Community/Fan Club members is in no way affiliated with the Official Team' agreement upon signing up for the community would cover all the bases for teams and their sponsors.


I think you mistook that post... TL is a different type of community. Everyone in this community doesnt go around representing liquid as an amateur with liquid tags. I wasn't talking forums like this more of academy type stuff, that is open registration.

Basically this thread has been split into two discussions on the same topic, 1 Revolving around pro team related academies, and 2 community stuff to just be a part of it but not be overly serious. Pro and Casual. While some teams do have casual communities not many are active, and not many have the pro academy side either.

From a competitive player thats been in competitive gaming for almost 20 years now, its just disappointing that there isn't an easier step to go pro or even get the smallest help. As far as im aware the only "true" academy is with complexity but they are restricted on who they let in, and havent ran a recruitment tournament in forever. Sure FXO started their community/academy, But I just seem lost on that from a professional perspective, What if I dedicate myself to their program? Will I get a contract, team house, practice partners and the ability to truly make it? as I just dont see that. I see a NA roster with a few former teammates and a team that never wanted me in the first place when they took one of our players on my former team and then soon after we got picked apart by several teams, and I was the one left teamless and naturally bitter. The bitterness I regret but its all business I guess, Its not going to change my 8 hour a day practice schedule that im already on, its not going to stop me from winning every local lan I attend, and its not going to stop me from attending atleast 2 MLG's next year. But it sure would be nice to feel like im just not spinning my wheels and going in circles day in and day out. Which is why I feel a serious academy team like the col academy is such a serious part of esports that we need to see more of, And be more open so the professional scene can grow as a whole. A team like that gives purpose and a goal and a way to truly achieve your dreams.

From the casual side, thats the part I never truly understood. As im not a casual and never have been, so I dont know what thats like at all. I honestly dont know the value from a casual wanting to be a direct part of a community from either perspective the team or the person. I honestly would love to hear a well thought explanation from someone on that. I do know its more of a direct way for a fanbase to connect, but thats about it.
alarm921
Profile Joined September 2012
5 Posts
November 01 2012 00:41 GMT
#44
From the casual side, thats the part I never truly understood. As im not a casual and never have been, so I dont know what thats like at all. I honestly dont know the value from a casual wanting to be a direct part of a community from either perspective the team or the person. I honestly would love to hear a well thought explanation from someone on that. I do know its more of a direct way for a fanbase to connect, but thats about it.


For a casual, the social aspect of the game is probably just as important as the game itself. Belonging to a community give things to look forward to (inhouse tourney, clan wars or just chat channels in general etc), and since B.net 0.2 is designed make players feel as isolated as possible, the appeal of belonging in a community becomes stronger. As a non-casual, you would probably feel that the time not spending to improve is a waste of time but for casual, these social aspects give us the motivation to continue playing and hopefully improve.

From the team point of view, my guess is that more traffic = more exposure, which might = attract potential sponsors.
WarEagle
Profile Joined March 2011
United States130 Posts
November 01 2012 05:06 GMT
#45
On November 01 2012 09:41 alarm921 wrote:
Show nested quote +
From the casual side, thats the part I never truly understood. As im not a casual and never have been, so I dont know what thats like at all. I honestly dont know the value from a casual wanting to be a direct part of a community from either perspective the team or the person. I honestly would love to hear a well thought explanation from someone on that. I do know its more of a direct way for a fanbase to connect, but thats about it.


For a casual, the social aspect of the game is probably just as important as the game itself. Belonging to a community give things to look forward to (inhouse tourney, clan wars or just chat channels in general etc), and since B.net 0.2 is designed make players feel as isolated as possible, the appeal of belonging in a community becomes stronger. As a non-casual, you would probably feel that the time not spending to improve is a waste of time but for casual, these social aspects give us the motivation to continue playing and hopefully improve.

From the team point of view, my guess is that more traffic = more exposure, which might = attract potential sponsors.


Exactly everything he said. Good first post.
Sanobot
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany35 Posts
November 01 2012 06:10 GMT
#46
As said bevor I still think the main difference is the following:

-a competative player plays to win (for himself)
-a casual player plays to have fun

BUT a casual player can also get competative if you tell him what to fight for. So - at least speaking for myself - I have no real motivation to just get better because for me winning is fun and getting better only means higher leagues and that means harder enemys so when I would start laddering, its probably not gonna make my winrate go up because whenever it does over a long enough time I get promoted and be bad again^^

If I had a Team to fight for it would give me more reason to do actually enjoy the competition because I wouldnt fight alone and for "a good cause"
I might be wrong but I'm not.
Freezer_au
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
Australia1461 Posts
November 01 2012 11:17 GMT
#47
We at Team oGaming went down this road with an academy of diamond ranked players hand picked to play in the sc2clans.org clanleague. By seasons end 5 of the 8 players in our academy had progressed to master rank I feel it is vital for the competitive teams to cater for the casual lower skilled players that do not always get the chances in any lime light.
bullseyel
Profile Joined September 2011
United States52 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-01 15:47:00
November 01 2012 15:46 GMT
#48
On November 01 2012 08:14 KiF1rE wrote:

From a competitive player thats been in competitive gaming for almost 20 years now, its just disappointing that there isn't an easier step to go pro or even get the smallest help. As far as im aware the only "true" academy is with complexity but they are restricted on who they let in, and havent ran a recruitment tournament in forever. Sure FXO started their community/academy, But I just seem lost on that from a professional perspective, What if I dedicate myself to their program? Will I get a contract, team house, practice partners and the ability to truly make it? as I just dont see that. I see a NA roster with a few former teammates and a team that never wanted me in the first place when they took one of our players on my former team and then soon after we got picked apart by several teams, and I was the one left teamless and naturally bitter. The bitterness I regret but its all business I guess, Its not going to change my 8 hour a day practice schedule that im already on, its not going to stop me from winning every local lan I attend, and its not going to stop me from attending atleast 2 MLG's next year. But it sure would be nice to feel like im just not spinning my wheels and going in circles day in and day out. Which is why I feel a serious academy team like the col academy is such a serious part of esports that we need to see more of, And be more open so the professional scene can grow as a whole. A team like that gives purpose and a goal and a way to truly achieve your dreams.


We don't seem professional because we want the players to have fun and professionalism should blend with that. Yeah, people can have fun. But we want them to push themselves into new levels. We don't tell them they have to practice for 8 hours a day because we don't need to. They do it themselves. They're motivated enough to push themselves. With a fun environment like that, people will do it themselves without you having to make them. Every time I login, I always see at least a few masters, laddering or practice and its only 2pm EST when practice is 7hrs away.
We are only as serious as you want us to be. If you want to practice for 8+ hours, then do so. We have people who do that and would practice with you. But for the people who are not that serious about being a pro, and just want to improve in the game in general, we have those people too. Who just stick around for the environment and find partners when they want to.

Im sorry for the past and the actions that left you bitter. Im not trying to convince you to join TDS, you will do what you want. But if you do want to come in and practice with my players, you can. Im not stopping you. The Mission for TDS is to help players improve in SC2 in general. If people want to take it seriously, then by all means, do so. We will help anyway we can.
Team Legion High Council Member
Zennith
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States795 Posts
November 01 2012 17:25 GMT
#49
On November 01 2012 20:17 Freezer_au wrote:
We at Team oGaming went down this road with an academy of diamond ranked players hand picked to play in the sc2clans.org clanleague. By seasons end 5 of the 8 players in our academy had progressed to master rank I feel it is vital for the competitive teams to cater for the casual lower skilled players that do not always get the chances in any lime light.



This is a great idea. I'd honestly love to hear a bit more about the logistics of how you guys did this - as we're looking at rolling out something quite similar.
Sentinel Gaming Competitive Team Manager | 1500+ points Masters Zerg | twitch.tv/zennith6
Zennith
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States795 Posts
November 01 2012 17:27 GMT
#50
On November 02 2012 00:46 bullseyel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2012 08:14 KiF1rE wrote:

From a competitive player thats been in competitive gaming for almost 20 years now, its just disappointing that there isn't an easier step to go pro or even get the smallest help. As far as im aware the only "true" academy is with complexity but they are restricted on who they let in, and havent ran a recruitment tournament in forever. Sure FXO started their community/academy, But I just seem lost on that from a professional perspective, What if I dedicate myself to their program? Will I get a contract, team house, practice partners and the ability to truly make it? as I just dont see that. I see a NA roster with a few former teammates and a team that never wanted me in the first place when they took one of our players on my former team and then soon after we got picked apart by several teams, and I was the one left teamless and naturally bitter. The bitterness I regret but its all business I guess, Its not going to change my 8 hour a day practice schedule that im already on, its not going to stop me from winning every local lan I attend, and its not going to stop me from attending atleast 2 MLG's next year. But it sure would be nice to feel like im just not spinning my wheels and going in circles day in and day out. Which is why I feel a serious academy team like the col academy is such a serious part of esports that we need to see more of, And be more open so the professional scene can grow as a whole. A team like that gives purpose and a goal and a way to truly achieve your dreams.


We don't seem professional because we want the players to have fun and professionalism should blend with that. Yeah, people can have fun. But we want them to push themselves into new levels. We don't tell them they have to practice for 8 hours a day because we don't need to. They do it themselves. They're motivated enough to push themselves. With a fun environment like that, people will do it themselves without you having to make them. Every time I login, I always see at least a few masters, laddering or practice and its only 2pm EST when practice is 7hrs away.
We are only as serious as you want us to be. If you want to practice for 8+ hours, then do so. We have people who do that and would practice with you. But for the people who are not that serious about being a pro, and just want to improve in the game in general, we have those people too. Who just stick around for the environment and find partners when they want to.

Im sorry for the past and the actions that left you bitter. Im not trying to convince you to join TDS, you will do what you want. But if you do want to come in and practice with my players, you can. Im not stopping you. The Mission for TDS is to help players improve in SC2 in general. If people want to take it seriously, then by all means, do so. We will help anyway we can.




I think he also might be suggesting that the general skill level of TDS is a bit too low for him - and while I don't know the skill level of TDS, I know that Kifire is a very strong player, and I think the frustration he mentions is that there's no real reliable avenue for him to become more known (ala the Complexity Academy) since those that exist haven't had new tryouts/tournaments in ages.
Sentinel Gaming Competitive Team Manager | 1500+ points Masters Zerg | twitch.tv/zennith6
Zennith
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States795 Posts
November 01 2012 22:47 GMT
#51
And yes, while I was the last person to post in this thread (twice, I guess), I had a thought while I was talking about this topic elsewhere.

I feel like, in order to truly improve, the NA (or general foreigner) scene needs a Minor League system, similar to that in many traditional sports. Like Kifire, there are tons of really strong players who find themselves stuck - with no place to develop beyond the mid tier teams that they've grown out of. They may not quite be on the level of the highest pro players yet, but they have significant talent and have shown particularly strong results either on ladder on in tournaments. They may not be winning everything yet, but they know what they're doing and are willing to put in the time.

As was mentioned, the Col Academy is a good example of this - with team tryouts and tournaments, the players then join the minor league team and participate in many team wars, in house tournaments, and serious team practices. They do all of this with the knowledge that if they perform well enough, they can move up to the Major Leagues and become a part of that roster - the rewards are significant - new equipment, exposure, and the chance to potentially make a living as a pro. And this clearly benefits Complexity as well - they have a serious system that helps them find the new up and coming talent, and it helps them develop the NA scene into something that can compete internationally - and hell, they look good for helping esports scene develop.

So the question is - why doesn't this exist for other teams? The Dark Side for Legion/FXO may be great, but it isn't a true minor league pro team. EG doesn't have one, Liquid doesn't have one, Quantic doesn't have one... the question is, why not? There's a lot to be gained, and it feels like (someone could correct me) that the costs aren't all that high. It becomes mostly about how you spend your time. Shit, if each of these teams had these types of minor league teams (again, when I say minor league, I'm still talking about incredibly skilled players) they could even have an actual Minor League Team League. There's a lot of press and publicity and positive feeling to be gained, and so very little to lose.
Sentinel Gaming Competitive Team Manager | 1500+ points Masters Zerg | twitch.tv/zennith6
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