On October 18 2012 09:22 Zidane wrote: Crank seems like a little baby now. Def not supporting him or Axiom or w/e here out. So many players, so many money grubbing babies after going to foreign events.
yeah with him lying about practicing, telling Cella to keep it secret and yelling at Boxer....I cant see myself cheering for this guy at all.
On October 18 2012 08:49 m1rk3 wrote: Sad Day. Sc2 dead? hope not.
What ? One team disband because bad management, Destiny trolling like always and ppl think it is end of sc2 funny
Did you even read what happened?
Jessica is still partly at fault, though. Sure, eSF is wrong in embargo players from training with Slayers, and Alicia just lying. But Jessica still did a couple of mismanagement, primarily give manager J all the shot on dealing with sponsors. That's a huge mistake that you cannot ignore at all.
Everyone is partly at fault here. Blaming only eSF's embargo as a sole reason why Slayers disbands is as bad as blaming everything on Jessica.
lol seriously?
she had good reason to think that the guy was sincere. very, very, good reason.
I don't know what to think about the bits regarding players acting selfishly whatever, but "J", who handled all of that stuff was pretty much the reason all of this happened to begin with :/
Kinda seems like a lot of people are at fault here. I don't know if it's just the translations or not, but Jessica always seems kinda passive aggressive every time I read something by her.
(...) Finally, she cares so much about all her players that she takes cheap shots at guys like Taeja who had nothing to do with this. If that's caring, I'd much rather that she didn't care for me. It seems that the members of Slayers felt the same way. But I'm sure a few questionable statements by Alicia are enough to prove that all the fault is really on all the different players, not the person at the center of all the management decisions.
What? When did she cheap shot Taeja? Am I missing something? Sorry, If I misunderstood
Ganzi, TaeJa, Golden, and Sleep are cases where players left the team with no problems. In TaeJa's case, he requested that he be allowed to leave, and it was accepted. He wanted to play on a different team, not necessarily a foreign team, but in the process TeamLiquid sent a request. Whenever I see him doing well on his new team, I'm proud. He's not the style of player that practices a lot or puts in a lot of effort. However, seeing him play so well despite that makes me think that while MMA is the type of player that gets it done through effort, TaeJa is really a genius kind of player. If he could train under a system, then I think he could become the best player.
The context before and after sounds all nice, but right in the middle there's this nasty little cheap shot. Why say he's lazy? What good does that do for anyone? It's just a cheap shot that added absolutely nothing to the message except make her look like she wants to burn every bridge she can.
That's not a cheap shot, are you kidding me? That's a compliment. It's like a parent saying 'he doesn't do his homework or study and he still gets straight A's because he is a genius'
I think it's important to highlight something: Jessica appears to like drama. Evidence of this is most easily seen by her fights on Twitter. She has no problem threatening Alicia with this unknown behavior that has legal implications, as noted at the end of her response that was posted just recently by WaxAngel. The fact that she is responding at all after she has made her point with the initial letter indicates to me that the aggressive part of her personality is still very much there. In her first statement, she made it a point to take the moral high ground and say that Alicia is involved with something bad, but refuses to say what it is because it is a legal issue. Once Alicia indirectly provokes her with his interview, she not-so-subtly threatens to reveal what happened. That doesn't appear to me to be healthy. Mind you, I am using textual evidence that has appeared in the source material for this thread, for this topic specifically.
There is no way we're going to know the complete impartial story of what happened here. But one thing is (and has been) clear to me: Jessica, despite doing what likely was her best to manage a dying team, is not pristine. I would argue that she is far from it, that there is no party here that is not at some fault.
So please keep that in mind when considering "whodunit." This is far too complicated an issue to blame to any singular party.
On October 18 2012 09:23 zefreak wrote: Nobody yells at boxer. These young players don't seem to understand that he's one of the reasons they have gaming as a career option. Must have been incredibly frustrating for him, especially with what he went through early in his career.
they don't know what it was like when there was no such thing as e-sports. when friends hired out apartments and ate nothing but instant noodle just so they can practice the game they love all day. when there was only small local tournaments that had only a few hundred dollars reward and if a guy wins, he shares his money with the people he is living with so they can continue playing and practicing with each other.
On October 18 2012 08:49 m1rk3 wrote: Sad Day. Sc2 dead? hope not.
What ? One team disband because bad management, Destiny trolling like always and ppl think it is end of sc2 funny
Did you even read what happened?
Jessica is still partly at fault, though. Sure, eSF is wrong in embargo players from training with Slayers, and Alicia just lying. But Jessica still did a couple of mismanagement, primarily give manager J all the shot on dealing with sponsors. That's a huge mistake that you cannot ignore at all.
Everyone is partly at fault here. Blaming only eSF's embargo as a sole reason why Slayers disbands is as bad as blaming everything on Jessica.
Because trusting someone who shows faith in your business and having him not only not do his job but outright lie and backstab the company is totally her fault. Guess every company should never let their employees do meaningful work cuz it might be a huge sabotage scenario. Cmon seriously. Wow. The jessica hate continues so much on TL its ridiculous.
(...) Finally, she cares so much about all her players that she takes cheap shots at guys like Taeja who had nothing to do with this. If that's caring, I'd much rather that she didn't care for me. It seems that the members of Slayers felt the same way. But I'm sure a few questionable statements by Alicia are enough to prove that all the fault is really on all the different players, not the person at the center of all the management decisions.
What? When did she cheap shot Taeja? Am I missing something? Sorry, If I misunderstood
Ganzi, TaeJa, Golden, and Sleep are cases where players left the team with no problems. In TaeJa's case, he requested that he be allowed to leave, and it was accepted. He wanted to play on a different team, not necessarily a foreign team, but in the process TeamLiquid sent a request. Whenever I see him doing well on his new team, I'm proud. He's not the style of player that practices a lot or puts in a lot of effort. However, seeing him play so well despite that makes me think that while MMA is the type of player that gets it done through effort, TaeJa is really a genius kind of player. If he could train under a system, then I think he could become the best player.
The context before and after sounds all nice, but right in the middle there's this nasty little cheap shot. Why say he's lazy? What good does that do for anyone? It's just a cheap shot that added absolutely nothing to the message except make her look like she wants to burn every bridge she can.
Someone said thats a translation error. If you twist it a little bit, it could be read as a praise. You know, "hes produces SO good results without even really trying". But thats speculation on my side, i just read it in this thread.
You might want to read the thread. You know, learning that so far most of what Jessica said checks out, while Alicia etc were caught bluntly lying. Would make your tirade look less stupid.
Really? What part of the tirade looked stupid?
The part where I said it was a bad idea to send an employee of 2 months to do your contract negotiations? I got that directly from Jessica's letter.
The part where I said it was poor management to not pick up a player from the airport?
Why did I make him take the bus? Because he was losing discipline. And I made sure you knew that.
So what Alicia said was true, he was forced to take the bus rather than receive team support. Also, how do you gain discipline by taking the bus? It seems to me that he instead gained a dislike for poor management. Oh, but she was busy, so that makes everything alright? No, she should get someone to do the job.
They got blacklisted by other teams. Yeah, that sucks and it's disappointing that ESF would do that. So I don't put the blame on Jessica or Slayers for the blacklist. However, it's still up to you as a manager to create a practice environment that can survive being blacklisted by outsiders. That is not what happened at all.
By her own first message, she showed multiple examples where she purposely separated players. So, you've got players that are blacklisted by other teams, and now you are cutting them off from their own teammates? How dumb can you get? Isn't that a scenario where you should get your players together even closer for "us against the world"? She did the exact opposite.
Finally, she cares so much about all her players that she takes cheap shots at guys like Taeja who had nothing to do with this. If that's caring, I'd much rather that she didn't care for me. It seems that the members of Slayers felt the same way. But I'm sure a few questionable statements by Alicia are enough to prove that all the fault is really on all the different players, not the person at the center of all the management decisions.
Seriously? You're putting a TEAM MANAGEMENT DECISION and an ESF CHEAP SHOT in the same context? ESF basically threw its weight around SlayerS. SlayerS did nothing to warrant the ostracization they received. They simply did not want to join the ESF and seemed to communicate their decisions in a non-hostile way to the ESF. On the other hand, Jessica let whoever wanted to leave go so long as their decisions were made in a professional manner (such as golden, Taeja, etc.) MMA, Ryung and Crank dissing on the team and believing allegations on embezzlement are different things. That required tough disciplinary action.
And cheap shots at Taeja? By calling him a genius? By saying he's brilliant even though he doesn't practice much? Where?
I maintain, I am a fan of MMA as a player but shame on him, on Ryung, Alicia and Crank. Either way, without Boxer's and Jessica's help I highly doubt that any of them will reach the same skill level they were at when SlayerS was in its heyday unless they go to Kespa teams (and MMA can't even handle that).
Glad to see Boxer is back with SKT where the true professionals are. Bisu has no time to listen to allegations about his coaches and managers, he trusts them and focuses on practicing.
On October 18 2012 08:06 Kokujin wrote: Jessica actually did tweet at Alicia during his NASL finals, checking up on him to tell him to eat well, good luck and encourage him to keep focus.
@SlayerSAlicia 상준이도 잘챙기고...액땜 햇다치고...너랑 상준이 없이.. 우린 경기.승리하고 누나도 눈물나게 좋구나. 좋은 결과 가지고 돌아와.. @SlayerSAlicia 양니.. 밥은 챙겨먹엇냐..멘탈관리나 잘해. 어그러진 상황에 열받지말고 가서 경기 할거 생각하고 마인드 컨트롤 하도록...
Grabs @ SlayerSAlicia sangjun well ... good luck beating haetda ... without you. Sangjun .. We match win and sister Gee's nice. Good results have come back ... @ SlayerSAlicia yangni Mental management, eating eotnya .. or good. Think going to the game and to distort the situation Do not conform any longer to go to Mind Control ...
courtesy of google translate
That pretty much nails it. Alicia, why u ?
Those were from July 12th and July 13th, which were before the finals on July 14th-15th. "good results have come back," could be another way of saying, "come back with first place," (or don't return), which used to sort of be a joke when they said it to MMA. Maybe they were a bit more serious about wanting results, and it shows more when they don't nab gold.
From the Alicia interview:
When I was 2nd place in MLG and NASL, I never had any cheers or congratulations from her at all, not even a simple ‘good job’.
I'm missing the contradiction. He got instruction and encouragement before NASL, not after getting 4-0'd by Stephano.
There was also a tweet from MLG Spring Championships (final day June 11th), and those tweets appeared to be encouraging and after the 2nd place finish. However, I cannot understand at all the one tweet on July 22nd, which was the same day as MLG Summer Arena final day.
Pretty terrible job proving Alicia a liar so far--he could be lying about MLG, but if not and he was legit on the Summer Arena and NASL3, his statement is factually correct even though he received tweets after the Spring Championship. That was earlier and before he'd take 3 silvers in a row, which may have had something to do with the silence.
Who knows what the standard was for airport pickups among "family" SlayerS? Only for gold medals or only for MMA or whoever is A-team at the time? I have no idea, but it was an international flight with a ton of jet lag, and his flight was delayed on the way there, along with HuK. After all that he returns dejectedly 4-0'd by Stephano with no one to greet him, which may have been a departure from the norm. That could sting a little.
Five pages back there are three tweets of Jessica, one of which said something about "good results produced". I can't read korean, and google-translate does kind of a bad job on that - so you might want to check up on that.
Edit: not to mention the fact that alot of the reason of Slayers disbanding is based on Alicia playing in NASL and Jessica fighting for him to do so (resulting in the ban).
That "good results produced" is the "good results have come back" I already quoted, which admittedly is from google translate. Wax's response I just read might actually prove something, but this twitter detective work certainly hasn't, at least until there's a proper translation of the July 22nd tweet, and then it only half proves it.
And because of that you should stop assuming anything from it. If you dont know Korean (like me) just wait until someone offers a real translation and please stop speculating on Google translations. There's nothing to be gained from it concerning this matter (where the exact meaning is important).
I wasn't the person who originally posted using google translate, and I was responding to their post. Nevertheless, and without any translation, the chronological sequence of events bears out Alicia not being proved a liar about NASL3, and the one tweet he received after Summer Arena may or may not be some sort of cheer or consolation. It is, at the least, a stark contrast to the large number of tweets, which do appear congratulatory, after his Spring Championship silver.
Beyond that, it may be that they were harder on Alicia for the subsequent second place finishes.
If anything, those tweets prove that Jessica wasn't trying to be Alicia's team manager, but rather she was being his mom. If there was a fault with Jessica, the tweets prove that she was trying to be too over protective over her players and ended up spoiling some of them.
Those tweets may indicate that, but people are calling Alicia a liar without doing their homework or putting much thought into it. At worst, he may be acting immature, exaggerating, and placing blame on Jessica, which is how she has often behaved as well (in turn no longer surprising). That doesn't lend toward either side being right, and traditionally I gave Jessica the benefit of the doubt.
Eve controversy? Go Jessica. Dragon? Well he's the one lacking benefit of the doubt there, with his history. On the other hand, MMA wasn't even allowed to interview after his code A match vs HongUn (iirc). They seemingly changed their mind and then "prepped" him for an interview. I began to doubt Jessica then, essentially putting a gag order on MMA. I hope to hear him really speak about it this time, even if he doesn't come off squeaky clean.
LOL you are hopeless. The bottom line is that Alicia got caught trying to distort the situation to his favor. If you want to keep cherry picking on one minor detail out of the entire context, then it's your problem. But as far as I'm concerned, Jessica has demonstrated more than enough that she very much cared about Alicia while he was competing in NASL or MLG or any other overseas tourney.
On October 18 2012 09:23 zefreak wrote: Nobody yells at boxer. These young players don't seem to understand that he's one of the reasons they have gaming as a career option. Must have been incredibly frustrating for him, especially with what he went through early in his career.
they don't know what it was like when there was no such thing as e-sports. when friends hired out apartments and ate nothing but instant noodle just so they can practice the game they love all day. when there was only small local tournaments that had only a few hundred dollars reward and if a guy wins, he shares his money with the people he is living with so they can continue playing and practicing with each other.
I agree. These kids, yes kids, have no respect. MMA going to a foreign team. Let's see how that works out for his results. Spoiled rock star mentality.
This whole thing is a mess and I feel like Boxer got caught up in this mess unwittingly.
Everyone is at fault, including Jessica for her uneccessary emotional outbursts and the young naive and greedy players.
However, I feel that boxer should have never went into partnership with someone he was in a relationship with. Sometimes, working with people you care about leads to you not being able to do your job properly.
On October 18 2012 09:19 EliteSK wrote: It seems like Alicia is high maintenance but felt that he wasn't cared for as much as other players who played in the GSTL matches and felt that he was treated unfairly sometimes as a result; He's not complaining about the fact the he didn't get rides sometimes, but the fact he got treated differently than players who played in the GSTL matches.
She actually risked alot for him, to make him play in the NASL. AFAIK, she did not nearly suicide the team for another player. Thats what i would call ungrateful.
Thats actually the one thing i would grant the hate-folks here. She acted less like a manager, and more like a mother. She protected Alicias "right" to play in NASL, against the eSF. A good ->manager<- would have told Alicia to deal with not competing in NASL.
From the sound of it that's what it sounds like, she put in a lotta effort to let Alicia play in NASL; it was worth her investment seeing Alicia's placement.
I don't think Jessica is completely in the wrong, nor do I think Alicia is completely right either. I say in the rest of my post that all progamers in team houses are high maintenance and are used to having almost everything taken care of for them... Alicia maybe more than some others.
And I agree that Jessica acted more of like a mother than purely that of a manager/coach who has a good relationship to the players...
On October 18 2012 08:49 m1rk3 wrote: Sad Day. Sc2 dead? hope not.
What ? One team disband because bad management, Destiny trolling like always and ppl think it is end of sc2 funny
Did you even read what happened?
Jessica is still partly at fault, though. Sure, eSF is wrong in embargo players from training with Slayers, and Alicia just lying. But Jessica still did a couple of mismanagement, primarily give manager J all the shot on dealing with sponsors. That's a huge mistake that you cannot ignore at all.
Everyone is partly at fault here. Blaming only eSF's embargo as a sole reason why Slayers disbands is as bad as blaming everything on Jessica.
lol seriously?
she had good reason to think that the guy was sincere. very, very, good reason.
I don't know what to think about the bits regarding players acting selfishly whatever, but "J", who handled all of that stuff was pretty much the reason all of this happened to begin with :/
And that's a sign that she is not a good manager. This is business, not some child play. Even a family member can embezzle money from the family business if they get a chance and willing to do (family first hand experience, my mother's company was almost drove to the ground by my aunt-in-law).
Dealing with sponsorship is a big deal, and even she trusted him, she should still accompany him and check with sponsors by herself.
On October 18 2012 09:26 GolemMadness wrote: Kinda seems like a lot of people are at fault here. I don't know if it's just the translations or not, but Jessica always seems kinda passive aggressive every time I read something by her.
I just couldn't agree more. Somehow it also gives her always a bit of "guilty look"(hard to explain) or something, trying to defend herself so much. Im not blaming anyone though. This is such a mess, its too hard to name the guilties.
(...) Finally, she cares so much about all her players that she takes cheap shots at guys like Taeja who had nothing to do with this. If that's caring, I'd much rather that she didn't care for me. It seems that the members of Slayers felt the same way. But I'm sure a few questionable statements by Alicia are enough to prove that all the fault is really on all the different players, not the person at the center of all the management decisions.
What? When did she cheap shot Taeja? Am I missing something? Sorry, If I misunderstood
Ganzi, TaeJa, Golden, and Sleep are cases where players left the team with no problems. In TaeJa's case, he requested that he be allowed to leave, and it was accepted. He wanted to play on a different team, not necessarily a foreign team, but in the process TeamLiquid sent a request. Whenever I see him doing well on his new team, I'm proud. He's not the style of player that practices a lot or puts in a lot of effort. However, seeing him play so well despite that makes me think that while MMA is the type of player that gets it done through effort, TaeJa is really a genius kind of player. If he could train under a system, then I think he could become the best player.
The context before and after sounds all nice, but right in the middle there's this nasty little cheap shot. Why say he's lazy? What good does that do for anyone? It's just a cheap shot that added absolutely nothing to the message except make her look like she wants to burn every bridge she can.
I read the Korean version, and it's very clear that Jessica was COMPLEMENTING Teaja, not taking a cheap shot at him.
EPT
