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Destiny on where he thinks SC2 is heading. - Page 8

Forum Index > SC2 General
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trias_e
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States520 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 06:23:47
October 17 2012 06:20 GMT
#141
Can't help but agree. We all know Blizzard dropped the ball in regards to battle.bet 2.0's interface and accessibility. They haven't budged on LAN play much to the game's detriment, and now they are being overtaken by more forward thinking companies. Blizzard is lucky that SC2 is the only RTS in town right now, and that Riot and Valve aren't infringing on their space too much. I wish they were to be honest.

Finally, HOTS. When HoTS beta went public and was so massively underwhelming to watch and play, my desire to follow and play SC2 (even WoL) dropped immensely. I hope they can turn it around, but they only have one decent unit per race right now and everything else needs to go. I don't have faith that Blizzard has what it takes to make HoTS what it needs to be at this point. The bubble is in danger of bursting, and if HoTS isn't up to par, it will burst.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
October 17 2012 06:20 GMT
#142
On October 17 2012 15:09 larse wrote:
Actually, people disagreed with Destiny's argument.

Most people for the last 2 years have been saying that there are not enough hardcore features and too many casual features. People have been asking for clan, in-game tournament, more stats, more prominent ladder 1v1, and have been criticizing the "dumb-down" of arcade and rearrangement of the order of 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 in the ladder screen.

Now you are blaming Blizzard of not paying attention to casuals. Of course they don't. People didn't ask for casual features but all they have asked are hardcore features. Now you just changed?

Even though I agree that casuals should be the focus rather than the hardcore, SC2's failture is the resulted from people's and the community's own fault that is the constant demand of more hardcore features and the constant blame of SC2's dumb-down features.


Destiny's comments are more pointed to the fact that the 1v1 and ladder features (match fixing) is at the forefront and the fact the UMS system is tragic let alone the fact that it took us ages to get chat rooms and we're still missing a lot of key features that would make the game more accessible to everybody.

I'd say focus more on how people go about searching and finding games other thank ranked matches. Hence casual.

Like he saying Bound games, 255 upgrade games, Fastest games, etc.
Kambing
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1176 Posts
October 17 2012 06:21 GMT
#143
On October 17 2012 15:08 HaruRH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2012 14:58 Kambing wrote:
On October 17 2012 14:54 Orracle wrote:
On October 17 2012 14:49 AndAgain wrote:
I think Destiny doesn't understand the concept of markets. There are games that suit casual players like LoL, and there are games that suit competitive players like SC2. Just because LoL may be more popular doesn't mean there's anything wrong with SC2 being competitive.

It's like how fast food joints are way more popular than steakhouses. That doesn't mean steakhouses should be more like fast food joints.


Ruth's Chris Steakhouse or McDonald's both have one thing in common, they're constantly expanding. There is always a market for their products. Why would pros continue playing SC2 if there is no market? They can transfer to LOL or Dota where there is going to be a lot of money.


Eh. By that same logic, why don't all the Major League Soccer players transfer over to the NFL since the NFL is far more successful than MLS?

1. Their talents and skills don't translate well enough to football, or
2. They like soccer more than football.


But skills from sc2 do translate to LoL/dota. Examples are plentiful, eg: iceiceice (dominated sc2 SEA ladder, now dominates dota 2), fruitdealer (went to LoL), etc

LoL,and dota managed to siphon players from sc2 to them, but sc2 isnt able to attract players from LoL and dota to them.


LoL and dota are more successful in terms of viewership right now, so it makes sense that one direction is more prevalent than the other.

But you (and the other poster that quoted me) are missing the point: LoL/dota and SC2 are different genres of games that cater to different audiences both at a pro and spectator level. On a higher level they interact indirectly, e.g., a worst-case scenario being SC2 getting bumped off of MLG main stage because LoL and dota take over. However, they don't interact directly. SC2 can reach a steady stable state regardless of how LoL and dota perform.

The audience that LoL and dota garner is built-in thanks to their large player base. What Destiny is suggesting (increase the player base to increase viewership) is a good idea in theory but is marred by the fact that SC2-the-game is fundamentally non-casual (the point of the person that I quoted) and UMS is a broken concept in this day and age.
Fionn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States23455 Posts
October 17 2012 06:21 GMT
#144
Call me when a new RTS game that draws big e-sports viewership comes around. LoL/Dota2 and SC2 are different games. Different pay models. Of course there are people who are into both, but it's much easier for a 12-year-old kid to get into LoL, a game he can play with his friends for free on whatever kind of computer he has, than get into Starcraft 2, usually played 1v1, costs $60, and needs a good computer to run properly.

Valve and Riot do a better job of promoting their games, but it's not like Blizzard isn't doing anything. WCS has been awesome. They've put on some great tournaments around the globe, given a lot of money out, and we'll have to see if their grand finals can match up to The International and LoL S2 World Championship.

It's not like everything is going perfectly for LoL and Dota2. LoL had massive numbers for their finals, but they had to postpone their quarterfinals and semifinals due to problems in the arena. Dota2 had a flawless The International, but the buzz has died down and it seems like every single team that played in that tournament has disbanded, traded away players, or is dead. It's not like they're constantly drawing in view numbers like The International for their tournaments currently. To me, it's the Super Bowl Effect.

I loved The International due to it's high production, hype, and everything surrounding it. It drew huge numbers and was a mighty success. Just like how the Super Bowl in America is watched by ten times the amount of people who usually watch a weekly football game on Monday night.

I think SC2 is fine. It drew 100,000 viewers during WCS Europe and constantly gets 50,000+ during bigger tournaments. Heart of the Swarm hype isn't as big anymore because there is still thousands of Wings of Liberty tournaments going on. When a MLG, GSL, IPL, DH whatever finally switches over to HotS and we see the best players from Korea and across the world play it, the hype will be back.



Writerhttps://twitter.com/FionnOnFire
Dephy
Profile Joined January 2011
Lithuania163 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 06:23:27
October 17 2012 06:22 GMT
#145
Also, the amount of stuff they planning to add in Hots is joke. I mean all they are planning to do is add 2-3 units per race, and balance some wol stuff. For fucks sakes, this is more like DLC than actual expand.
Blizzard you dont remember how much stuf tft changed from roc in wc3? Basicly all damage/armor system have been revamped, new items, new units, new heroes. Basically game changed 120% degrees.
And now with sc2 we will do same stuff, same openings, no change whatsoever. Its not even whine about balance. Its whine about there being no new content in hots.
Also why the fuck are there units that suck cock? remeber in wc3 if you made tier 3 units they owned the shit out of everything: Gryphon riders, taurens, frost wyrms, all these tier 3 units where bad ass. When you got then in your army you knew they gonna do awesome stuff.
Now in sc2 BC, Carrier is basicly joke units, thor is joke to, ultralisk is abit better, but tier 1 units like marauder still owns them hardcore, while tier 2 unit imortall, makes ultras not valible at all(in pvz).
Fyodor
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada971 Posts
October 17 2012 06:22 GMT
#146
Just wait until Activision-Blizzard revs the hype machine. The millions of dollars in advertizing that will bring waves of new players is still to come.
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
Daray
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
6006 Posts
October 17 2012 06:23 GMT
#147
You can add all the features you want but that won't change the fact that the game is NOT fun for casuals. Changing the game play completely would be needed but that didn't happen for HOTS. I follow most tournaments but if im buying HOTS it's for the single player.
dakalro
Profile Joined September 2010
Romania525 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 06:25:24
October 17 2012 06:23 GMT
#148
On October 17 2012 14:16 jalstar wrote:
Ok 1, I thought Destiny wasn't posting on reddit any more, 2, most of the things in this article are correct, but I want to focus on something else.

Are 1v1 games/sports intrinsically less interesting than team games/sports? (because humans are social animals)

I don't think Dota/LoL are competitors to SC2 any more than football is a competitor to tennis.


No, it's because playing a 1v1 to win requires effort and time spent doing "nothing" from the player's pov. People liked playing BGH, Fastest Map etc in BW because it removed effort. Sure initially I could play 1v1 but over time (after getting my ass handed to me in the first tournament I played :D) I completely lost interest since I always had some people absolutely crush me. That's why 1v1 unranked should exist and UMS should exist.
MateShade
Profile Joined July 2011
Australia736 Posts
October 17 2012 06:27 GMT
#149
On October 17 2012 15:21 Fionn wrote:
Call me when a new RTS game that draws big e-sports viewership comes around. LoL/Dota2 and SC2 are different games. Different pay models. Of course there are people who are into both, but it's much easier for a 12-year-old kid to get into LoL, a game he can play with his friends for free on whatever kind of computer he has, than get into Starcraft 2, usually played 1v1, costs $60, and needs a good computer to run properly.

Valve and Riot do a better job of promoting their games, but it's not like Blizzard isn't doing anything. WCS has been awesome. They've put on some great tournaments around the globe, given a lot of money out, and we'll have to see if their grand finals can match up to The International and LoL S2 World Championship.

It's not like everything is going perfectly for LoL and Dota2. LoL had massive numbers for their finals, but they had to postpone their quarterfinals and semifinals due to problems in the arena. Dota2 had a flawless The International, but the buzz has died down and it seems like every single team that played in that tournament has disbanded, traded away players, or is dead. It's not like they're constantly drawing in view numbers like The International for their tournaments currently. To me, it's the Super Bowl Effect.

I loved The International due to it's high production, hype, and everything surrounding it. It drew huge numbers and was a mighty success. Just like how the Super Bowl in America is watched by ten times the amount of people who usually watch a weekly football game on Monday night.

I think SC2 is fine. It drew 100,000 viewers during WCS Europe and constantly gets 50,000+ during bigger tournaments. Heart of the Swarm hype isn't as big anymore because there is still thousands of Wings of Liberty tournaments going on. When a MLG, GSL, IPL, DH whatever finally switches over to HotS and we see the best players from Korea and across the world play it, the hype will be back.




I agree with you mostly but I'm not so sure. Sc2 is undeniably dwindling no matter how slow, and with hots not really bringing anything new or exciting to the table sc2 will continue to dwindle, albeit slowly. I would love an increase in interest due to an expansion
nihoh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia978 Posts
October 17 2012 06:31 GMT
#150
At the end of the day, SC2 is just not as fun as ARTS for the majority of the gamer population. Sad but true. And this translates into viewership.
Dont look at the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 06:32:50
October 17 2012 06:31 GMT
#151
On October 17 2012 15:22 Dephy wrote:
Also, the amount of stuff they planning to add in Hots is joke. I mean all they are planning to do is add 2-3 units per race, and balance some wol stuff. For fucks sakes, this is more like DLC than actual expand.
Blizzard you dont remember how much stuf tft changed from roc in wc3? Basicly all damage/armor system have been revamped, new items, new units, new heroes. Basically game changed 120% degrees.
And now with sc2 we will do same stuff, same openings, no change whatsoever. Its not even whine about balance. Its whine about there being no new content in hots.
Also why the fuck are there units that suck cock? remeber in wc3 if you made tier 3 units they owned the shit out of everything: Gryphon riders, taurens, frost wyrms, all these tier 3 units where bad ass. When you got then in your army you knew they gonna do awesome stuff.
Now in sc2 BC, Carrier is basicly joke units, thor is joke to, ultralisk is abit better, but tier 1 units like marauder still owns them hardcore, while tier 2 unit imortall, makes ultras not valible at all(in pvz).



That's what they've done in everyone of their RTS expansions though and you left quite a bit out too.

We played certain maps like Lost Temple, Python, Tau Cross, Bifrost, Outsider, Luna etc. for ages but at least guys like Rose.of.Dream were making maps left and right to help keep things fresh.

The eras of BW were a lot more clean-cut as well.

On October 17 2012 15:21 Fionn wrote:
Call me when a new RTS game that draws big e-sports viewership comes around. LoL/Dota2 and SC2 are different games. Different pay models. Of course there are people who are into both, but it's much easier for a 12-year-old kid to get into LoL, a game he can play with his friends for free on whatever kind of computer he has, than get into Starcraft 2, usually played 1v1, costs $60, and needs a good computer to run properly.

Valve and Riot do a better job of promoting their games, but it's not like Blizzard isn't doing anything. WCS has been awesome. They've put on some great tournaments around the globe, given a lot of money out, and we'll have to see if their grand finals can match up to The International and LoL S2 World Championship.

It's not like everything is going perfectly for LoL and Dota2. LoL had massive numbers for their finals, but they had to postpone their quarterfinals and semifinals due to problems in the arena. Dota2 had a flawless The International, but the buzz has died down and it seems like every single team that played in that tournament has disbanded, traded away players, or is dead. It's not like they're constantly drawing in view numbers like The International for their tournaments currently. To me, it's the Super Bowl Effect.

I loved The International due to it's high production, hype, and everything surrounding it. It drew huge numbers and was a mighty success. Just like how the Super Bowl in America is watched by ten times the amount of people who usually watch a weekly football game on Monday night.

I think SC2 is fine. It drew 100,000 viewers during WCS Europe and constantly gets 50,000+ during bigger tournaments. Heart of the Swarm hype isn't as big anymore because there is still thousands of Wings of Liberty tournaments going on. When a MLG, GSL, IPL, DH whatever finally switches over to HotS and we see the best players from Korea and across the world play it, the hype will be back.





Developers avoid RTS games for many reasons and our boys at Blizzard even addressed it too. o;
jmbthirteen
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States10734 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 06:37:30
October 17 2012 06:32 GMT
#152
On October 17 2012 15:08 HaruRH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2012 14:58 Kambing wrote:
On October 17 2012 14:54 Orracle wrote:
On October 17 2012 14:49 AndAgain wrote:
I think Destiny doesn't understand the concept of markets. There are games that suit casual players like LoL, and there are games that suit competitive players like SC2. Just because LoL may be more popular doesn't mean there's anything wrong with SC2 being competitive.

It's like how fast food joints are way more popular than steakhouses. That doesn't mean steakhouses should be more like fast food joints.


Ruth's Chris Steakhouse or McDonald's both have one thing in common, they're constantly expanding. There is always a market for their products. Why would pros continue playing SC2 if there is no market? They can transfer to LOL or Dota where there is going to be a lot of money.


Eh. By that same logic, why don't all the Major League Soccer players transfer over to the NFL since the NFL is far more successful than MLS?

1. Their talents and skills don't translate well enough to football, or
2. They like soccer more than football.


But skills from sc2 do translate to LoL/dota. Examples are plentiful, eg: iceiceice (dominated sc2 SEA ladder, now dominates dota 2), fruitdealer (went to LoL), etc

LoL,and dota managed to siphon players from sc2 to them, but sc2 isnt able to attract players from LoL and dota to them.

and Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez were both basketball players in college who now play in the NFL.

Also a lot of the sc2 players who went to LoL, fell off in sc2 like Fruitdealer and Rainbow.

And there is still a ton of money in sc2. Guess which game has given out more money than any other? SC2.
http://www.esportsearnings.com/games

In its 2 years of existence its paid out a million dollars more than the holy grail that is BW.

LoL has paid out 3.4 mil. 2 million was just paid out this past weekend in ONE tournament. All paid by Riot too. Dota has also paid out 3.4 mil, 3.2 mil is from the TWO Internationals. Such a large percentage of both games money has come from a total of 3 tournaments. Thats not healthy.

Arguably the second biggest Dota 2 tournament (outside of China) is happening this weekend, StarLadder 3. Quantic and EG aren't even sending their teams which qualified because its not even worth it. How often does that happen for EG in sc2? They send people everywhere all the time. Yet they won't send their Dota team to one of the biggest tournaments because its not worth it.

I love Dota 2, i find it to be a fantastic game. But its not near the size of SC2 right now. They have a LOOOONG way to go still.

Complaints that $100,000 prize pools haven't raised are ridiculous as well. Its a one hundred fucking grand! Thats a lot of money. MLG tournaments pay out more in sc2 than they do LoL. DH Valencia actually paid out more in sc2 than it did in LoL, Dota 2 and CS GO combined.
www.superbeerbrothers.com
algorithm0r
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada486 Posts
October 17 2012 06:33 GMT
#153
Destiny spreading some of the real shit again. Good on you Destiny - at least someone tells it like it is.

TT1 and the rest of ROOT good on you guys too - except when are you gonna let Destiny back in the club?
Polar_Nada
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States1548 Posts
October 17 2012 06:33 GMT
#154
That was a good read and was so freaking depressing T_T. Blizzard really needs to do something...
[ReD]NaDa and fnaticMSI.SEn fighting~! ::POlar @ UC Irvine::
TheLink
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia2725 Posts
October 17 2012 06:33 GMT
#155
I wonder what happens if we balance the game around 3v3 and actively plan for starcraft to be a team game.
Only the weak link is strong enough to break the chain.
ROOTFayth
Profile Joined January 2004
Canada3351 Posts
October 17 2012 06:34 GMT
#156
On October 17 2012 15:19 ChApFoU wrote:
[in response to the OP]

Or maybe we should just accept once and for all that Broodwar was a "once in a lifetime" game that will hardly be surpassed. Sure LoL is sucessful in terms of players and viewership, but would we be passionate about a 5v5, 60apm required game ?

they wouldn't play all day long and watch every tournaments if they weren't passionate about it.... wtf does it matter if it takes 60 APM to play

you can be passionate about Chess for all I care and it doesn't take a whole lot of APM
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10004 Posts
October 17 2012 06:34 GMT
#157
On October 17 2012 15:33 algorithm0r wrote:
Destiny spreading some of the real shit again. Good on you Destiny - at least someone tells it like it is.

TT1 and the rest of ROOT good on you guys too - except when are you gonna let Destiny back in the club?


once the la revolucion kicks into high gear, our ultimate goal is to have destiny rule over blizzard
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
October 17 2012 06:35 GMT
#158
On October 17 2012 15:32 jmbthirteen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2012 15:08 HaruRH wrote:
On October 17 2012 14:58 Kambing wrote:
On October 17 2012 14:54 Orracle wrote:
On October 17 2012 14:49 AndAgain wrote:
I think Destiny doesn't understand the concept of markets. There are games that suit casual players like LoL, and there are games that suit competitive players like SC2. Just because LoL may be more popular doesn't mean there's anything wrong with SC2 being competitive.

It's like how fast food joints are way more popular than steakhouses. That doesn't mean steakhouses should be more like fast food joints.


Ruth's Chris Steakhouse or McDonald's both have one thing in common, they're constantly expanding. There is always a market for their products. Why would pros continue playing SC2 if there is no market? They can transfer to LOL or Dota where there is going to be a lot of money.


Eh. By that same logic, why don't all the Major League Soccer players transfer over to the NFL since the NFL is far more successful than MLS?

1. Their talents and skills don't translate well enough to football, or
2. They like soccer more than football.


But skills from sc2 do translate to LoL/dota. Examples are plentiful, eg: iceiceice (dominated sc2 SEA ladder, now dominates dota 2), fruitdealer (went to LoL), etc

LoL,and dota managed to siphon players from sc2 to them, but sc2 isnt able to attract players from LoL and dota to them.

and Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez were both basketball players in college who now play in the NFL.

Also a lot of the sc2 players who went to LoL, fell on in sc2 like Fruitdealer and Rainbow.

And there is still a ton of money in sc2. Guess which game has given out more money than any other? SC2.
http://www.esportsearnings.com/games

In its 2 years of existence its paid out a million dollars more than the holy grail that is BW.

LoL has paid out 3.4 mil. 2 million was just paid out this past weekend in ONE tournament. All paid by Riot too. Dota has also paid out 3.4 mil, 3.2 mil is from the TWO Internationals. Such a large percentage of both games money has come from a total of 3 tournaments. Thats not healthy.

Arguably the second biggest Dota 2 tournament (outside of China) is happening this weekend, StarLadder 3. Quantic and EG aren't even sending their teams which qualified because its not even worth it. How often does that happen for EG in sc2? They send people everywhere all the time. Yet they won't send their Dota team to one of the biggest tournaments because its not worth it.

I love Dota 2, i find it to be a fantastic game. But its not near the size of SC2 right now. They have a LOOOONG way to go still.

Complaints that $100,000 prize pools haven't raised are ridiculous as well. Its a one hundred fucking grand! Thats a lot of money. MLG tournaments pay out more in sc2 than they do LoL. DH Valencia actually paid out more in sc2 than it did in LoL, Dota 2 and CS GO combined.



That's a crock and you know it because we didn't have the sponsorships we did back then and there's so much tournaments going on that what the hell you think? Whereas a PL season would go on for an eternity and you would only have several MSLs and OSLs a year.

So no.

It's centralized whereas now every team, personality, sponsor, organization is hosting their own fucking tournaments.

Don't even compare the two.
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
October 17 2012 06:36 GMT
#159
The Arcade is a joke. The system developed 14 years ago for Brood War UMS maps worked perfectly fine. How is it possible to make something so much worse 14 years later?
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
udgnim
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8024 Posts
October 17 2012 06:37 GMT
#160
said it before and I'll say it again

Stephano is single handedly keeping foreigner interest in SC2 alive
E-Sports is competitive video gaming with a spectator fan base. Do not take the word "Sports" literally.
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