The single most important thing he said is the one thing most hardcore SC2 players do not want to admit:
It's not fun to play ranked matches that affect a ladder ranking. Why on earth would you play a game that gives you ladder anxiety? Why would you play a game where 11/11 or 6 pools or 4gates can kill you in under 4 minutes? Why would you play a game that punishes mistakes so cruelly?
The average, casual player wouldn't. One of the Starcraft 2's major problems is its inability to understand that its primary audience (the casual gamer) has been completely neglected.
Many competitive games have ways around this, such as FPS games today that put people into teams and try to split the players in a even way. One of the reasons why Call of Duty is super popular, because even the worst player in the world can sit down, get a few kills and level up, he is rewarded despite not being very good. WoW is so easy that the only people who should struggle with it, have never played a videogame in their lives, i mean literally not a single one. LoL and DOTA like games at least allow you to have a back and forth match, there is no "cheese" to be scared of where the game ends in 4 minutes, even if you suck you still get to play, kill some guys and there you go.
Starcraft 2 just does not have that, unless you take this game seriously (which the minority does) then there is no reason to even boot the game up.
Blizzard has shown that they kinda understand the issue by removing losses seen on Bnet, but the core problem is that just finding a good "game" of SC2 is hard, you can play for 2-3 hours a night and maybe only get 1 great game that is interesting and back and forth. Yet when i play any other online game (yes EVERY other) i always get into competitive matches where i get to *play* even if i lose i still had fun, SC2 is rarely fun.
As for watching this game, i was burned out a year ago, there was alot of excitement when GSL first launched and you had Idra, TLO and Jinro doing well there but the matches were rarely fun to watch. Today things are only slightly better in match entertainment part, because the maps are better but that is negated by the fact that foreigners have fallen so far behind, without Stephano the last year most tournaments would have been unwatchable, i cant blame the korean players being better ofcourse.
Brood War lost viewers in its last 2-3 years, it is one of the reasons why sponsors bailed out and why the game "died". Despite it being my favorite game of all time, there is a limit to how many matches you can watch, how many tournaments you can follow, eventually you as a viewer are just burned out.
None of it matters, nothing that happens competitively in SC2 seems to matter at all. Other than Fruitdealer winning the first GSL and i Nestea (i think?) winning the second GSL i cannot remember anything else. MLG is all a blur of technical problems, Huk and Idra won some early one, and then there was that epic MLG Dallas event that is legendary in just how badly it all went. NASL is utterly forgettable except for Geoff Robinson hyping the shit out of it initially then seeing it fall apart in first season.
Anyway enough bitching from me, TLDR: i just do not think video games no matter how great (BW) have enough legs in them to last, the interest fades eventually, maybe the depth of the games is just not there, maybe the organizations do a poor job promoting them or maybe games just arent cut for the long run like real sports.
I'm actually quite surprised destiny took a minute off his MoW food drama trolling to write it up. Or is it his usual tolling session to remind the scene of his existence? Either way as with most rants most points miss completely - Blizzard will not save SC2. Not so much due to incompetence but because of simple fact that the formula is obsolete and there is no fixing that. No amount of achievements/chats/lobbies/game-modes will change the reality that RTS games are on the way out and the only thing that holds SC2 together is that it's spectator friendly. And honestly praising valve when CS:GO is doing poorly or insisting it's all because of lack of LAN is just uninformed. So is maintaining that the game is not casual-friendly enough when any step away from BW formula causes a savage backlash from the community.
But if you have a great idea how SC2 could be saved perhaps it's time to make a custom game and start sponsoring tournaments for it. After all - we can do it better. Right?
do you really think that the success of SC2 depends on UMS? if so, we are screwed. there are so many better options and better games than UMS...
I don't think that there is any chance for SC2 to be a game that casuals will enjoy to play, but to watch!
they should focus on the competitive aspect, so people who likes to watch high level competition will enjoy it and people who likes to play with high level competition will also enjoy it.
Pretty true. Looking back on things, I never seriously laddered in BW... mostly played customs with friends. Now that I don't have the free time of a student anymore, I can't say I'm willing to dedicate the time to ladder seriously in SC2. I still watch the big tournaments when I can, or check out streams occasionally when I have a bit of time to kill, but my playtime has pretty much gone to zero.
I'd be really curious to see the conversion rate on promotional codes/discounts given out by various sponsors during tournaments. For instance, during WCS, if say Razer runs a 15% off code shown on stream, how many people actually put it toward a purchase. If it's run as an ad, I bet the rate is very low, considering many people use ad-blocker.
The merchandising/etc. route that normal sports get additional revenue by isn't going to work (no licensing agreements) and quite frankly team shirts plastered in sponsor patches are hideous (and more legal hurdles). People can only buy so many peripherals/energy drinks/whatever, and people complaining about buying $10 tournament passes are probably not big spenders.
definitely agree in the manner of how Starcraft scene is going. I honestly don't understand how hard it is to become a gamer and i give all of you guys props for taking the hard road.
I played SC2 until I was in the highest league, and then I quit because I knew I'd never have the time to actually be pro (for reference, this was Diamond at the time).
I played years of SC1 UMS and WC3 UMS. SC2's organization for UMS is absolute shit. Chat channels are difficult and a mess. I haven't opened my SC2 client in 6 months.
Oh, and I can't have LAN parties with my friends - and yes, this is relevant.
Their version of a succesful UMS is making a DotA clone in-house. This is not how your games have been succesful in the past. Why do companies always try and renovate when no renovation is needed? New balance, new units, new storyline, that's all fine, but the actual systems didn't need to be changed (just given a facelift).
As a game I would say SC2 has a great many things that make it superior to BW but I would say the Arcade is nowhere near as engaging. The unranked ladder will likely be a great edition but the lack of a F2P for better or worse will likely hinder SC2s popularity to an extent.
The other hindrance to the ranked play is that it as a whole needs more ranks. Yes a rank 8 diamond is different to a rank 78 diamond but not in anyway that will make someone want to try to get that. Most of my favorite ranking systems had little goals that you shot for and after you got it you shot for next one etc. etc. Sometimes you would fall a bit but then you would climb your way back up and that in and of itself was engaging.
On October 17 2012 15:19 ChApFoU wrote: [in response to the OP]
Or maybe we should just accept once and for all that Broodwar was a "once in a lifetime" game that will hardly be surpassed. Sure LoL is sucessful in terms of players and viewership, but would we be passionate about a 5v5, 60apm required game ?
they wouldn't play all day long and watch every tournaments if they weren't passionate about it.... wtf does it matter if it takes 60 APM to play
you can be passionate about Chess for all I care and it doesn't take a whole lot of APM
You're missing the point. Ppl can be passionate about it no problem, I just wanted to say that LoL was competitive only because of it's massive success as an online game, not because it's a good game for competition by itself, in terms of depth and required skill. Chess requires a lot of skills.
we all know starcraft will not be as popular as mobas, which pretty much plays themselves and players just join along the ride.
I dont understand our obsession with starcraft being the most popular game our there. No it mush be the best game our there. two our completly different
thanks for the effort but they can't and won't fix this game. they would have to admit that their initial design is majorly flawed. these people actually thought that giving the different races strengths/weaknesses at different points of the game was a good way to balance. it still hasn't occurred to them that this isn't a good idea... at least with broodwar there wasn't an insane force driving the meta game in the wrong direction. i've been considering just going back to bw. it seems pretty stupid but i'd like to just enjoy my time playing starcraft again.
i've been thinking about it recently and it's honestly no surprise that things have devolved to the point that they have with the meta game. i mean who wants to gamble with late game when you have better results gambling early/mid-game.
i think the problem is that most of us actually expected them to understand how far off the mark they were with WoL and for them to work towards fixing the game. starting with removing the problems in WoL, and only then adding more units to the game. it seems like they are more interested in innovating than providing something stable. simple will always be better in RTS games... i don't like to feel like i am being taken advantage of when i lose.
above all i just want a game that i can actually respect my opponent for beating me at...
The biggest misconception reading this thread is that super popular online games like LoL, DOTA, CoD and Halo are all popular because they are competitively better and deeper games than SC2, and that the developers who made these games "listen" to the hardcore. You are getting it completely wrong
They are popular because they are easy to get into from a casual point of view, they allow new players to jump in and have fun. That is the core point of what Destiny wrote, they are easy to understand on a basic level. Starcraft 2 is not, its too "hardcore" for its own good, to have fun in SC2 you have to invest months of playing the game just to be competitive, that is work
On October 17 2012 16:02 Cuce wrote: we all know starcraft will not be as popular as mobas, which pretty much plays themselves and players just join along the ride.
I dont understand our obsession with starcraft being the most popular game our there. No it mush be the best game our there. two our completly different
This.
I don't see any reason why SC2 e-sports scene will be "dead" by LotV. It has a consistent viewership of 50,000+ on Twitch for big tournaments and sometimes over 100,000. They're entirely different games and cater to different audiences.
If SC2 is going to die, then I guess the fighting game scene, FPS scenes, and everything else is also dead and are just zombies.
On October 17 2012 16:01 Adreme wrote: As a game I would say SC2 has a great many things that make it superior to BW but I would say the Arcade is nowhere near as engaging. The unranked ladder will likely be a great edition but the lack of a F2P for better or worse will likely hinder SC2s popularity to an extent.
The other hindrance to the ranked play is that it as a whole needs more ranks. Yes a rank 8 diamond is different to a rank 78 diamond but not in anyway that will make someone want to try to get that. Most of my favorite ranking systems had little goals that you shot for and after you got it you shot for next one etc. etc. Sometimes you would fall a bit but then you would climb your way back up and that in and of itself was engaging.
I'm interested. Please PM me what you believe SC2 has that is superior to BW.
On October 17 2012 16:02 Cuce wrote: we all know starcraft will not be as popular as mobas, which pretty much plays themselves and players just join along the ride.
I dont understand our obsession with starcraft being the most popular game our there. No it mush be the best game our there. two our completly different
This.
I don't see any reason why SC2 e-sports scene will be "dead" by LotV. It has a consistent viewership of 50,000+ on Twitch for big tournaments and sometimes over 100,000. They're entirely different games and cater to different audiences.
If SC2 is going to die, then I guess the fighting game scene, FPS scenes, and everything else is also dead and are just zombies.
SC2 won't die for the same reasons the other games don't die. Because of the community and Blizzard will still put money into it regardless.
On October 17 2012 15:09 larse wrote: Actually, people disagreed with Destiny's argument.
Most people for the last 2 years have been saying that there are not enough hardcore features and too many casual features. People have been asking for clan, in-game tournament, more stats, more prominent ladder 1v1, and have been criticizing the "dumb-down" of arcade and rearrangement of the order of 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 in the ladder screen.
Now you are blaming Blizzard of not paying attention to casuals. Of course they don't. People didn't ask for casual features but all they have asked are hardcore features. Now you just changed?
Even though I agree that casuals should be the focus rather than the hardcore, SC2's failture is the resulted from people's and the community's own fault that is the constant demand of more hardcore features and the constant blame of SC2's dumb-down features.
I think you kinda miss the point here. Hundreds of thousands of casuals play SC2 and will enjoy the campaign and maybe poke around the other game modes a little but shelve the game after a month or two and are happy.
If Blizzard enticed more of that enormous player base to play longer/share the game with friends and get into eSports then you get growth.
LoL has this ridiculous playerbase and popularity, and it's essentially the same as DotA which we were playing as a custom map on WC3 like 10+ years ago. See how some companies can take a product and market it like absolute crazy, whereas Blizzard have this very same product right under their noses and they miss the boat.
I knew you had it in you, Steven :D. He's 100% right, almost every reason i dumped SC2 for Dota2 is in this post. After playing 90% dota2 for the last few months, i feel i'd have to be masochistic to play another ladder game of starcraft.
On October 17 2012 16:02 Cuce wrote: we all know starcraft will not be as popular as mobas, which pretty much plays themselves and players just join along the ride.
I dont understand our obsession with starcraft being the most popular game our there. No it mush be the best game our there. two our completly different
This.
I don't see any reason why SC2 e-sports scene will be "dead" by LotV. It has a consistent viewership of 50,000+ on Twitch for big tournaments and sometimes over 100,000. They're entirely different games and cater to different audiences.
If SC2 is going to die, then I guess the fighting game scene, FPS scenes, and everything else is also dead and are just zombies.
On October 17 2012 16:02 Cuce wrote: we all know starcraft will not be as popular as mobas, which pretty much plays themselves and players just join along the ride.
I dont understand our obsession with starcraft being the most popular game our there. No it mush be the best game our there. two our completly different
This.
I don't see any reason why SC2 e-sports scene will be "dead" by LotV. It has a consistent viewership of 50,000+ on Twitch for big tournaments and sometimes over 100,000. They're entirely different games and cater to different audiences.
If SC2 is going to die, then I guess the fighting game scene, FPS scenes, and everything else is also dead and are just zombies.
FPS has been dead for awhile. FGC don't even promote themselves the way SC2 tournaments do--they're a grassroot, for the players, by the players mentality.
I've been really depressed at how SC2 isn't growing at the rate of other games. I think it's an awesome game and deserves better than the attention it gets. I never played BW but I do agree with most of Destiny's points. The Wii is a perfect example of how casual gamers can dominate a market. It has such terrible games it sells more because it appeals to your casual gamer.
On October 17 2012 16:02 Cuce wrote: we all know starcraft will not be as popular as mobas, which pretty much plays themselves and players just join along the ride.
I dont understand our obsession with starcraft being the most popular game our there. No it mush be the best game our there. two our completly different
This.
I don't see any reason why SC2 e-sports scene will be "dead" by LotV. It has a consistent viewership of 50,000+ on Twitch for big tournaments and sometimes over 100,000. They're entirely different games and cater to different audiences.
If SC2 is going to die, then I guess the fighting game scene, FPS scenes, and everything else is also dead and are just zombies.
Well... I would characterize the fighting game and FPS scenes as "surviving" at best. The stream numbers for random night fights by Team Spooky or whatever, held at a local arcade with a couple dozen people are probably worse than any well known SC2/MOBA pro's regular streaming. When's the last time a typical Teamliquid poster watched a FPS stream unless it was dovetailed into a SC2 tournament? Maybe some Youtube highlight videos?
EPT
