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On October 17 2012 16:30 Glurkenspurk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 16:18 Cuce wrote:On October 17 2012 15:54 Tyree wrote:
Many competitive games have ways around this, such as FPS games today that put people into teams and try to split the players in a even way. One of the reasons why Call of Duty is super popular, because even the worst player in the world can sit down, get a few kills and level up, he is rewarded despite not being very good. WoW is so easy that the only people who should struggle with it, have never played a videogame in their lives, i mean literally not a single one. LoL and DOTA like games at least allow you to have a back and forth match, there is no "cheese" to be scared of where the game ends in 4 minutes, even if you suck you still get to play, kill some guys and there you go.
Starcraft 2 just does not have that, unless you take this game seriously (which the minority does) then there is no reason to even boot the game up.
Blizzard has shown that they kinda understand the issue by removing losses seen on Bnet, but the core problem is that just finding a good "game" of SC2 is hard, you can play for 2-3 hours a night and maybe only get 1 great game that is interesting and back and forth. Yet when i play any other online game (yes EVERY other) i always get into competitive matches where i get to *play* even if i lose i still had fun, SC2 is rarely fun.
Thats because, players do not dictate how a game of lol or dota will play out. one of the biggest noob question in starcraft bw and sc2 or wc3 or anyother proper rts game is "when should I attack?" and god is it an important question. when and how to attack. Mobas do not have this question. game is already attacking on its own. players just join the action. games keeps them on pace for first 10 minutes. keeping them safe and sound with towers, giving them safety income, safety resources to no fall to behind, 3 layers of safety towers so game would not end so fast that way players would not be playing for noting for last 10 minutes and on and on. no matter how agressive you play you cant dictate how the game will play. There is too many safety to keep the game on its safe and "fun" route. there is no way to end the game in 4 min, or 10 or 15. you cant all in, you cant make huge game plans cause as players your effect on gameplay is minimal relative to rts games, where you are the gameplay. This moba aproach result as always having fun games. pretty much same game every time, but yeah I guess we can say its fun. Yet the difference is huge, you will always be playing the prearrenged fun game. when you get a fun starcraft game you know what happens, you made that fun game. some people prefer one over the other, thats why they play/watch one over the other. we always knew what majority will choose, so why do we even arguing on how sc2 lost popularity race over lol or dota. I don't think you've ever watched a game of dota in your life. You can definitely "all in" with hard early push strats, and deciding when to attack and defend is huge.
I played enough dota and lol to see what can be done in dota or lol, I'm sorry.
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If Blizzard actually gave a shit about Starcraft they wouldn't have killed BW, sued OGN, gave GOMTV rights over Kespa, etc. You just need to wait for the game to die, and hope it gets legitimized by Kespa...again.
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Blizz should make cheese stronger. The best SC2 games were during the GOMTvT era.
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The worst thing is that they are wasting their time making a DOTA UMS remake.
That ship has SAILED. Stop wasting your time, and learn to make some proper judgments.
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Pretty much agree with most of his points, thanks for some of the good evidence and sources 
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SC2 is laughable compared to BW. I played BW for 10+ years and the only games I ever played were UMS maps. They fucking shitted on UMS in SC2 and forced ladder on you. The sequel to my two childhood games - Brood War and Diablo 2 - are complete abominations to their predecessors, albeit SC2 not as nearly as bad as Diablo 3. I already left Diablo 3, and if HOTS doesn't make drastic changes i.e clan support, chat channels(not the shit we have now), better custom game system, replay sharing, name changes, being allowed to change races without having the same MMR, better fucking units unlike the wimpy ass Colossus, better meta game where the game isn't decided by a Vortex, etc............................ peace out Blizzard. /End Rant
Just sayin.
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On October 17 2012 16:35 enemy2010 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 16:25 Sea_Food wrote:On October 17 2012 16:19 enemy2010 wrote:
I remember a thread some months ago where a guy made the following suggestion:
Form a team of pro-gamers, that sits down to develop new maps and new game modes with implementing the nerfs and buffs for the units according to the current state of the game and the community demands.
Lets do our own version of SC2. An SC2 how we want it. Lets use the game and the platform and the infrastructure that Blizzard gave us and develope according to our preferences.
Why don't we do that? Why don't we get our own hands on this mess and start tidying up?
Sure, and the end it's Blizzards game. But we give them all the support they want, we'd LOVE (do I really say that?) to pay for awesome features like name change or awesome maps or fancy stuff. So you are saying pro gamers of all people should take their practice/free time to develop the game they payed blizzard to do? After that people can keep hosting tournaments for a community made game while paying HUGE royalties to blizzard, and still using Bnet2.0 as the base of the game. I dont think I have ever heard of a worse suggestion. Well, at least it would be a start and not sitting around crying over Blizzard's fatigue. How long did we wait for chatrooms to be implemented? If the community starts to act by its own, maybe Blizzard finally see the seriousness on this topic.
What do you know? BW community acted on it's own before and look what happened. Only now Blizzard has put more restrictions on us especially when it comes to third party programs.
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Btw, I dont know what is the returnt rate of live stream ads among themselves, but they are prett y much the best thing a company can do. returns from magazines television and internet site ads are absymal yet companies still use them.
sc2 does not have to fight lol or dota viewer numbers to survive, sc2 is doing really good even know.
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On October 17 2012 16:04 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 16:02 Cuce wrote:
we all know starcraft will not be as popular as mobas, which pretty much plays themselves and players just join along the ride.
I dont understand our obsession with starcraft being the most popular game our there. No it mush be the best game our there. two our completly different This. I don't see any reason why SC2 e-sports scene will be "dead" by LotV. It has a consistent viewership of 50,000+ on Twitch for big tournaments and sometimes over 100,000. They're entirely different games and cater to different audiences. If SC2 is going to die, then I guess the fighting game scene, FPS scenes, and everything else is also dead and are just zombies.
on the other hand, SC2 is not likely to grow any larger. The biggest growth should be happening now, when the bw pros are coming over, excitement for the new expansion.
I would say what he meant for SC2 esport scene is dead = less pro scene, less competitions, smaller prize pool.
I am also disappointed of how much SC2 has grown, completely overshadowed by the BW scene in Korea
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On October 17 2012 16:18 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 15:53 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 17 2012 15:46 StarStruck wrote:On October 17 2012 15:40 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 17 2012 15:35 StarStruck wrote:On October 17 2012 15:32 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 17 2012 15:08 HaruRH wrote:On October 17 2012 14:58 Kambing wrote:On October 17 2012 14:54 Orracle wrote:On October 17 2012 14:49 AndAgain wrote:
I think Destiny doesn't understand the concept of markets. There are games that suit casual players like LoL, and there are games that suit competitive players like SC2. Just because LoL may be more popular doesn't mean there's anything wrong with SC2 being competitive.
It's like how fast food joints are way more popular than steakhouses. That doesn't mean steakhouses should be more like fast food joints. Ruth's Chris Steakhouse or McDonald's both have one thing in common, they're constantly expanding. There is always a market for their products. Why would pros continue playing SC2 if there is no market? They can transfer to LOL or Dota where there is going to be a lot of money. Eh. By that same logic, why don't all the Major League Soccer players transfer over to the NFL since the NFL is far more successful than MLS? 1. Their talents and skills don't translate well enough to football, or 2. They like soccer more than football. But skills from sc2 do translate to LoL/dota. Examples are plentiful, eg: iceiceice (dominated sc2 SEA ladder, now dominates dota 2), fruitdealer (went to LoL), etc LoL,and dota managed to siphon players from sc2 to them, but sc2 isnt able to attract players from LoL and dota to them. and Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez were both basketball players in college who now play in the NFL. Also a lot of the sc2 players who went to LoL, fell on in sc2 like Fruitdealer and Rainbow. And there is still a ton of money in sc2. Guess which game has given out more money than any other? SC2. http://www.esportsearnings.com/gamesIn its 2 years of existence its paid out a million dollars more than the holy grail that is BW. LoL has paid out 3.4 mil. 2 million was just paid out this past weekend in ONE tournament. All paid by Riot too. Dota has also paid out 3.4 mil, 3.2 mil is from the TWO Internationals. Such a large percentage of both games money has come from a total of 3 tournaments. Thats not healthy. Arguably the second biggest Dota 2 tournament (outside of China) is happening this weekend, StarLadder 3. Quantic and EG aren't even sending their teams which qualified because its not even worth it. How often does that happen for EG in sc2? They send people everywhere all the time. Yet they won't send their Dota team to one of the biggest tournaments because its not worth it. I love Dota 2, i find it to be a fantastic game. But its not near the size of SC2 right now. They have a LOOOONG way to go still. Complaints that $100,000 prize pools haven't raised are ridiculous as well. Its a one hundred fucking grand! Thats a lot of money. MLG tournaments pay out more in sc2 than they do LoL. DH Valencia actually paid out more in sc2 than it did in LoL, Dota 2 and CS GO combined. That's a crock and you know it because we didn't have the sponsorships we did back then and there's so much tournaments going on that what the hell you think? Whereas a PL season would go on for an eternity and you would only have several MSLs and OSLs a year. So no. It's centralized whereas now every team, personality, sponsor, organization is hosting their own fucking tournaments. Don't even compare the two. How is it a crock? In 2 years, sc2 has given away a million dollars more than BW did in what, 14? BW had sponsorships, just not outside of Korea cause the game didn't take off outside of Korea. I don't see how saying sc2 has sponsorships and way more tournaments with a ton of different people running the tournaments is a negative against sc2? Isn't that a huge positive? Totally different situations. You cannot compare where we were 14 years ago to now. P.S. we had sponsors albeit very small ones. We had cash prizes for leagues too, albeit small ones. Everything from the technology of streaming to the economics and growth are layers buddy. It's a fool's errand. As for your last line. The growth outside of Korea has been great; however, it's foolish to think all of these organizers, sponsors and teams will remain in the scene. and yet today we actually have a foreign scene, when in BW we didnt. And its not even 14 years ago. Compare where BW was a year before sc2 came out to sc2 a year after it came out. Its not even close in comparison. the point of my post is that there is quite a bit of money in sc2. More than most people realize. And the fact that its not all coming from the developer is even more impressive. Yeah some leagues, teams and sponsors will come and go. It will be that way for sc2, LoL, and Valve. But i know if IPL gets cut off with the sale of IGN, that sc2 will still be going strong. But if Valve doesn't hold another International, or Riot realizes its time to just stop wasting money on esports, those two games are dead. Ironically, if it weren't for BW, SC2 would be nowhere. How you're so quick to discredit BW, which took years and years to even establish a decent scene, and credit all the success to SC2 boggles my mind. Plain and simple, in terms of viewers and popularity SC2 will never touch BW. Korea alone established such a large following for BW, that SC2 will never touch it. How you can say Riot is wasting money on esports is hilarious. You understand LOL and Dota 2 are here to stay while SC2 is nearing the end of the product life cycle? HOTS isn't looking too promising, so I highly doubt that will provide much growth for SC2.
I don't meant to discredit BW at all. You misunderstood my post. There has been plenty of talk in this thread about money not being in sc2, players will leave for LoL and Dota, no million dollar tournaments and so on. Yet sc2 has given out more prize money than any other game in the history of esports so far. I'm not bashing on BW at all. I'm just saying that sc2 has been pretty damn successful so far. Yeah BW was huge in Korea, but I'm far more excited about the global popularity of sc2.
And how exactly is sc2 nearing the end of its product life cycle? HotS is due out in a few months which nearly resets the damn clock. HotS is in fucking beta. Shit will change. The best sc2 players aren't even touching the game yet because they are focusing on WoL. There is so much room for growth in HotS because of that single fact alone. When HotS comes out, I can't wait to see MVP meching against Toss. I can't wait to see DRG abducting colossus and shit.
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Cwik made it pretty clear, what's wrong with the game. It's the core of the game. And it's not gonna change, nor is lan support. Pretty depressing.
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On October 17 2012 16:35 enemy2010 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 16:25 Sea_Food wrote:On October 17 2012 16:19 enemy2010 wrote:
I remember a thread some months ago where a guy made the following suggestion:
Form a team of pro-gamers, that sits down to develop new maps and new game modes with implementing the nerfs and buffs for the units according to the current state of the game and the community demands.
Lets do our own version of SC2. An SC2 how we want it. Lets use the game and the platform and the infrastructure that Blizzard gave us and develope according to our preferences.
Why don't we do that? Why don't we get our own hands on this mess and start tidying up?
Sure, and the end it's Blizzards game. But we give them all the support they want, we'd LOVE (do I really say that?) to pay for awesome features like name change or awesome maps or fancy stuff. So you are saying pro gamers of all people should take their practice/free time to develop the game they payed blizzard to do? After that people can keep hosting tournaments for a community made game while paying HUGE royalties to blizzard, and still using Bnet2.0 as the base of the game. I dont think I have ever heard of a worse suggestion. Well, at least it would be a start and not sitting around crying over Blizzard's fatigue. How long did we wait for chatrooms to be implemented? If the community starts to act by its own, maybe Blizzard finally see the seriousness on this topic.
Do you think Blizzard is intentionally making SC2 a failure? They are trying the best they can, but that is not enough.
If you want to make a game your better game yourself, do it. Or get some people do it for you. (protip: pro gamers will not do it for you.) But do NOT use SC2 as the base.
What do you know? BW community acted on it's own before and look what happened. Only now Blizzard has put more restrictions on us especially when it comes to third party programs.
This awell. Its against the ToS/Eula of SC2 to do any UI improvements.
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Fun thing about BroodWar is that i could be online 10-15hours in a row, without even playing a game.
U could hang in Chat Channels for hours, in sc2 its like sitting staring into a wall.
i dont know how many hours i've spent with watching replays with friends! it's retarded that Blizzard managed to fix that
in an game thats over 10yrs old and not in this "new game"
I played around 1000 Games of SC2 without enjoying any of them, i just WANTED to enjoy it so bad since i loved SC:BW,
and i gave up, had a break for 1 year.
I logged on BW and i was like fuck yeaaah love this UI, chat channels are perfect!
God so much that blizzard can do better with sc2
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instead of this we can just be happy with what we have.....
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To address one of the problems that Destiny pointed out in his post, I propose a new ladder system that presumably will be fun for the more casual players and still good for the hardcores and pros. If you have more better ideas, please help to develop this. Also, sorry about the poor English.
As Destiny said, one thing that prevents more people from playing SC2 is that the ladder is most a place of frustration for the casuals and there are no progressive rewards for the players. To address this, the new system tries to make playing ladder games to have a feeling of progression and reward even when you lost. The new system is as the following:
1. Add "Ladder Experience" and "Ladder Credits" in addition to the existing "Ladder Points"
2. "Ladder Points" is the same as the current one with MMR and Bonus points and all that, so hardcores and pros are not effected at all.
3. You earn "Ladder Experience" and can level up by playing ladder games. You will get the same amount of "Ladder Experience" and progress to higher levels regardless of win or loss.
4. You earn "Ladder Credits" regardless of win or loss. You earn more credits when winning and earn less when losing. But you don't lose credits (you lose them by purchasing in-game goods)
5. Add 5 tiers of in-game goods
6. Some of the essential goods of each tier are unlocked automatically when you are up to certain level. Other more good-looking goods can be purchased by using Ladder Credits
7. The 5 tiers of in-game goods that rank from lower to higher-tier are:
----(1) Color change of the skins for units and structures
----(2) Special skins for units and structures
----(3) New models for units and structures (such as NOVA as ghost or Zeratual as DT)
----(4) New visual effects of attack projectiles and spells
----(5) New dance animation
----(6) New in-game unit portraits (or something funny that can be added to the existing unit portraits like Zealot with a !@#$ing HAT
8. Higher-tier goods and better-looking goods require higher "Ladder Experience" or more "Ladder Credits" than lower-tier ones.
9. Add more New portraits that are animated that can be unlocked by using Ladder Experience or Ladder Credits
10. "Ladder Experience" and "Ladder Credits" are a prominent part in your profile that people can show off like the ladder leagues.
11. Though controversial, maybe add a system of AH and RMAH that can trade Credits like D3 Gold. (I know it could be bad)
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One of the main points he missed for reasons why League of Legends is so popular: shit is happening all the time. Every week, new heroes to try out due to rotation, some heroes come out, get revamped, changed, fixed, whatever. Well, perhaps not every week something changes, but for the casual player it sure seems that way.
Does it make for a better competetive scene? No. But it makes for a much more dynamic playing experience when you are not competetive: don't play for a month or two, come back: stuff has changed, new heroes are out, you can try new heroes on rotation, and if you want to buy them: play more.
It's very much the MMORPG dynamic: invest time, get rewarded.
It is why it is so much more rewarding to play even though you are not very good: because you are still managing to 'improve' ... not your skill, but what you have accomplished, what you have available, etc etc etc.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
Nice on Destiny, I agreed with a lot of what you were getting across.
I really don't understand why Blizzard isn't trying to cater completely to their fans but instead seems to ignore them.
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On October 17 2012 16:04 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 16:02 Cuce wrote:
we all know starcraft will not be as popular as mobas, which pretty much plays themselves and players just join along the ride.
I dont understand our obsession with starcraft being the most popular game our there. No it mush be the best game our there. two our completly different This. I don't see any reason why SC2 e-sports scene will be "dead" by LotV. It has a consistent viewership of 50,000+ on Twitch for big tournaments and sometimes over 100,000. They're entirely different games and cater to different audiences. If SC2 is going to die, then I guess the fighting game scene, FPS scenes, and everything else is also dead and are just zombies.
Because people are leaving starcraft for league and dota as can be seen here. 100k people would be fine if the starcraft graph were holding steady but it is currently on a downward trend.
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q="league of legends", "starcraft", dota 2&date=1/2009 47m&cmpt=q
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Sc2 is gonna have its diehard fans in a long time, and as long as there is money in it - there will be professional players.
However i agree with the statement that LoL is easier accessable and easier to enjoy for a normal person, compared to sc2. Therefore it will have better chance to "catch" people.
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the best players will rise to the top of even the most simple game. trying to do too much with design and the actual attempt to make high skill requirement units led to the current state of sc2.
in brood war units that required a high level of skill to use effectively were rarely used in the in the manner in which they were designed and intended. because they didn't work. blizzard has always been horrible at design. think about it. brood war worked because it was all an accident. the players took a pile of shit and shined it into a perfect shiny sphere. blizzard can attempt to replicate that beautiful mistake all they want.
they will never do it.
not with the people that they have now. mainly because of the attitude that drives them.
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EPT
