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On October 17 2012 16:04 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 16:02 Cuce wrote:
we all know starcraft will not be as popular as mobas, which pretty much plays themselves and players just join along the ride.
I dont understand our obsession with starcraft being the most popular game our there. No it mush be the best game our there. two our completly different This. I don't see any reason why SC2 e-sports scene will be "dead" by LotV. It has a consistent viewership of 50,000+ on Twitch for big tournaments and sometimes over 100,000. They're entirely different games and cater to different audiences. If SC2 is going to die, then I guess the fighting game scene, FPS scenes, and everything else is also dead and are just zombies.
yeah seriously, why does it have to be the most popular thing ever for people to put their time and effort into it? There's a very real diminishing return for sponsors in terms of how much money they can sink into an event, it's better to sponsor multiple events/games
The ONLY people who I can see this truly have an impact on are people like Destiny, or Dragon, who don't really get on much else other than their stream personality, which they by all means should go to the more popular game.
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Come to think of it, if Mvp quits SC2 I dont have anyone else to watch in sc2 anymore.
I dont feel like buying HoTS on release either
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If you made the game more casual then you might get more players but you also get less exitement from watching pro matches.
I still dont think the game will die off in 2 years and I also think blizzard had a huge chance.
I think the problem is that they are riding to much in the middle.
The game isnt casual nor is it competitive.
Counter strike proves that people will still play competitive games.
They should have either made the game casual, which wouldnt have made it succed in my opinnion.
Or they should have gone balls to the wall with the competitive difficulty and also have had a good custom game system for casuals.
But they didnt, gj blizz.
Sc2 would have also had the huuuuuuuuuuuge benefit of being almost the only rts on the market and the only e-sport rts.
Back then things were different btw. People didnt have as much expectations for games and there were less of them.
So thats why poeple played those cusotm games and were okey with it, now they would just play another game.
Aka: game no hard enough, gj blizz
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On October 17 2012 15:53 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 15:46 StarStruck wrote:On October 17 2012 15:40 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 17 2012 15:35 StarStruck wrote:On October 17 2012 15:32 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 17 2012 15:08 HaruRH wrote:On October 17 2012 14:58 Kambing wrote:On October 17 2012 14:54 Orracle wrote:On October 17 2012 14:49 AndAgain wrote:
I think Destiny doesn't understand the concept of markets. There are games that suit casual players like LoL, and there are games that suit competitive players like SC2. Just because LoL may be more popular doesn't mean there's anything wrong with SC2 being competitive.
It's like how fast food joints are way more popular than steakhouses. That doesn't mean steakhouses should be more like fast food joints. Ruth's Chris Steakhouse or McDonald's both have one thing in common, they're constantly expanding. There is always a market for their products. Why would pros continue playing SC2 if there is no market? They can transfer to LOL or Dota where there is going to be a lot of money. Eh. By that same logic, why don't all the Major League Soccer players transfer over to the NFL since the NFL is far more successful than MLS? 1. Their talents and skills don't translate well enough to football, or 2. They like soccer more than football. But skills from sc2 do translate to LoL/dota. Examples are plentiful, eg: iceiceice (dominated sc2 SEA ladder, now dominates dota 2), fruitdealer (went to LoL), etc LoL,and dota managed to siphon players from sc2 to them, but sc2 isnt able to attract players from LoL and dota to them. and Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez were both basketball players in college who now play in the NFL. Also a lot of the sc2 players who went to LoL, fell on in sc2 like Fruitdealer and Rainbow. And there is still a ton of money in sc2. Guess which game has given out more money than any other? SC2. http://www.esportsearnings.com/gamesIn its 2 years of existence its paid out a million dollars more than the holy grail that is BW. LoL has paid out 3.4 mil. 2 million was just paid out this past weekend in ONE tournament. All paid by Riot too. Dota has also paid out 3.4 mil, 3.2 mil is from the TWO Internationals. Such a large percentage of both games money has come from a total of 3 tournaments. Thats not healthy. Arguably the second biggest Dota 2 tournament (outside of China) is happening this weekend, StarLadder 3. Quantic and EG aren't even sending their teams which qualified because its not even worth it. How often does that happen for EG in sc2? They send people everywhere all the time. Yet they won't send their Dota team to one of the biggest tournaments because its not worth it. I love Dota 2, i find it to be a fantastic game. But its not near the size of SC2 right now. They have a LOOOONG way to go still. Complaints that $100,000 prize pools haven't raised are ridiculous as well. Its a one hundred fucking grand! Thats a lot of money. MLG tournaments pay out more in sc2 than they do LoL. DH Valencia actually paid out more in sc2 than it did in LoL, Dota 2 and CS GO combined. That's a crock and you know it because we didn't have the sponsorships we did back then and there's so much tournaments going on that what the hell you think? Whereas a PL season would go on for an eternity and you would only have several MSLs and OSLs a year. So no. It's centralized whereas now every team, personality, sponsor, organization is hosting their own fucking tournaments. Don't even compare the two. How is it a crock? In 2 years, sc2 has given away a million dollars more than BW did in what, 14? BW had sponsorships, just not outside of Korea cause the game didn't take off outside of Korea. I don't see how saying sc2 has sponsorships and way more tournaments with a ton of different people running the tournaments is a negative against sc2? Isn't that a huge positive? Totally different situations. You cannot compare where we were 14 years ago to now. P.S. we had sponsors albeit very small ones. We had cash prizes for leagues too, albeit small ones. Everything from the technology of streaming to the economics and growth are layers buddy. It's a fool's errand. As for your last line. The growth outside of Korea has been great; however, it's foolish to think all of these organizers, sponsors and teams will remain in the scene. and yet today we actually have a foreign scene, when in BW we didnt. And its not even 14 years ago. Compare where BW was a year before sc2 came out to sc2 a year after it came out. Its not even close in comparison. the point of my post is that there is quite a bit of money in sc2. More than most people realize. And the fact that its not all coming from the developer is even more impressive. Yeah some leagues, teams and sponsors will come and go. It will be that way for sc2, LoL, and Valve. But i know if IPL gets cut off with the sale of IGN, that sc2 will still be going strong. But if Valve doesn't hold another International, or Riot realizes its time to just stop wasting money on esports, those two games are dead.
Ironically, if it weren't for BW, SC2 would be nowhere. How you're so quick to discredit BW, which took years and years to even establish a decent scene, and credit all the success to SC2 boggles my mind. Plain and simple, in terms of viewers and popularity SC2 will never touch BW. Korea alone established such a large following for BW, that SC2 will never touch it. How you can say Riot is wasting money on esports is hilarious. You understand LOL and Dota 2 are here to stay while SC2 is nearing the end of the product life cycle?
HOTS isn't looking too promising, so I highly doubt that will provide much growth for SC2.
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On October 17 2012 15:54 Tyree wrote:
Many competitive games have ways around this, such as FPS games today that put people into teams and try to split the players in a even way. One of the reasons why Call of Duty is super popular, because even the worst player in the world can sit down, get a few kills and level up, he is rewarded despite not being very good. WoW is so easy that the only people who should struggle with it, have never played a videogame in their lives, i mean literally not a single one. LoL and DOTA like games at least allow you to have a back and forth match, there is no "cheese" to be scared of where the game ends in 4 minutes, even if you suck you still get to play, kill some guys and there you go.
Starcraft 2 just does not have that, unless you take this game seriously (which the minority does) then there is no reason to even boot the game up.
Blizzard has shown that they kinda understand the issue by removing losses seen on Bnet, but the core problem is that just finding a good "game" of SC2 is hard, you can play for 2-3 hours a night and maybe only get 1 great game that is interesting and back and forth. Yet when i play any other online game (yes EVERY other) i always get into competitive matches where i get to *play* even if i lose i still had fun, SC2 is rarely fun.
Thats because, players do not dictate how a game of lol or dota will play out.
one of the biggest noob question in starcraft bw and sc2 or wc3 or anyother proper rts game is "when should I attack?" and god is it an important question. when and how to attack. Mobas do not have this question. game is already attacking on its own. players just join the action. games keeps them on pace for first 10 minutes. keeping them safe and sound with towers, giving them safety income, safety resources to no fall to behind, 3 layers of safety towers so game would not end so fast that way players would not be playing for noting for last 10 minutes and on and on.
no matter how agressive you play you cant dictate how the game will play. There is too many safety to keep the game on its safe and "fun" route. there is no way to end the game in 4 min, or 10 or 15. you cant all in, you cant make huge game plans cause as players your effect on gameplay is minimal relative to rts games, where you are the gameplay. This moba aproach result as always having fun games. pretty much same game every time, but yeah I guess we can say its fun.
Yet the difference is huge, you will always be playing the prearrenged fun game. when you get a fun starcraft game you know what happens, you made that fun game.
some people prefer one over the other, thats why they play/watch one over the other. we always knew what majority will choose, so why do we even arguing on how sc2 lost popularity race over lol or dota.
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I remember a thread some months ago where a guy made the following suggestion:
Form a team of pro-gamers, that sits down to develop new maps and new game modes with implementing the nerfs and buffs for the units according to the current state of the game and the community demands.
Lets do our own version of SC2. An SC2 how we want it. Lets use the game and the platform and the infrastructure that Blizzard gave us and develope according to our preferences.
Why don't we do that? Why don't we get our own hands on this mess and start tidying up?
Sure, and the end it's Blizzards game. But we give them all the support they want, we'd LOVE (do I really say that?) to pay for awesome features like name change or awesome maps or fancy stuff.
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Yep. A lot of skeptics/pessimists in the early days of release questioned blizzard's decision making with the game but people kept calling them out saying "it's only beta" or "it's only a few months into release, give it time", and now we're 2 years into release and there are still blaring problems that aren't being addressed. Blizzard dun goofd, I'm actually enjoying watching it crumble, it's been a terrible company the past few years (primarily after their merger with Activision). I hope they open their eyes and start pumping out quality games again but I'm quite doubtful about that ever happening. A fantastic post by Destiny.
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On October 17 2012 15:53 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 15:46 StarStruck wrote:On October 17 2012 15:40 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 17 2012 15:35 StarStruck wrote:On October 17 2012 15:32 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 17 2012 15:08 HaruRH wrote:On October 17 2012 14:58 Kambing wrote:On October 17 2012 14:54 Orracle wrote:On October 17 2012 14:49 AndAgain wrote:
I think Destiny doesn't understand the concept of markets. There are games that suit casual players like LoL, and there are games that suit competitive players like SC2. Just because LoL may be more popular doesn't mean there's anything wrong with SC2 being competitive.
It's like how fast food joints are way more popular than steakhouses. That doesn't mean steakhouses should be more like fast food joints. Ruth's Chris Steakhouse or McDonald's both have one thing in common, they're constantly expanding. There is always a market for their products. Why would pros continue playing SC2 if there is no market? They can transfer to LOL or Dota where there is going to be a lot of money. Eh. By that same logic, why don't all the Major League Soccer players transfer over to the NFL since the NFL is far more successful than MLS? 1. Their talents and skills don't translate well enough to football, or 2. They like soccer more than football. But skills from sc2 do translate to LoL/dota. Examples are plentiful, eg: iceiceice (dominated sc2 SEA ladder, now dominates dota 2), fruitdealer (went to LoL), etc LoL,and dota managed to siphon players from sc2 to them, but sc2 isnt able to attract players from LoL and dota to them. and Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez were both basketball players in college who now play in the NFL. Also a lot of the sc2 players who went to LoL, fell on in sc2 like Fruitdealer and Rainbow. And there is still a ton of money in sc2. Guess which game has given out more money than any other? SC2. http://www.esportsearnings.com/gamesIn its 2 years of existence its paid out a million dollars more than the holy grail that is BW. LoL has paid out 3.4 mil. 2 million was just paid out this past weekend in ONE tournament. All paid by Riot too. Dota has also paid out 3.4 mil, 3.2 mil is from the TWO Internationals. Such a large percentage of both games money has come from a total of 3 tournaments. Thats not healthy. Arguably the second biggest Dota 2 tournament (outside of China) is happening this weekend, StarLadder 3. Quantic and EG aren't even sending their teams which qualified because its not even worth it. How often does that happen for EG in sc2? They send people everywhere all the time. Yet they won't send their Dota team to one of the biggest tournaments because its not worth it. I love Dota 2, i find it to be a fantastic game. But its not near the size of SC2 right now. They have a LOOOONG way to go still. Complaints that $100,000 prize pools haven't raised are ridiculous as well. Its a one hundred fucking grand! Thats a lot of money. MLG tournaments pay out more in sc2 than they do LoL. DH Valencia actually paid out more in sc2 than it did in LoL, Dota 2 and CS GO combined. That's a crock and you know it because we didn't have the sponsorships we did back then and there's so much tournaments going on that what the hell you think? Whereas a PL season would go on for an eternity and you would only have several MSLs and OSLs a year. So no. It's centralized whereas now every team, personality, sponsor, organization is hosting their own fucking tournaments. Don't even compare the two. How is it a crock? In 2 years, sc2 has given away a million dollars more than BW did in what, 14? BW had sponsorships, just not outside of Korea cause the game didn't take off outside of Korea. I don't see how saying sc2 has sponsorships and way more tournaments with a ton of different people running the tournaments is a negative against sc2? Isn't that a huge positive? Totally different situations. You cannot compare where we were 14 years ago to now. P.S. we had sponsors albeit very small ones. We had cash prizes for leagues too, albeit small ones. Everything from the technology of streaming to the economics and growth are layers buddy. It's a fool's errand. As for your last line. The growth outside of Korea has been great; however, it's foolish to think all of these organizers, sponsors and teams will remain in the scene. and yet today we actually have a foreign scene, when in BW we didnt. And its not even 14 years ago. Compare where BW was a year before sc2 came out to sc2 a year after it came out. Its not even close in comparison. the point of my post is that there is quite a bit of money in sc2. More than most people realize. And the fact that its not all coming from the developer is even more impressive. Yeah some leagues, teams and sponsors will come and go. It will be that way for sc2, LoL, and Valve. But i know if IPL gets cut off with the sale of IGN, that sc2 will still be going strong. But if Valve doesn't hold another International, or Riot realizes its time to just stop wasting money on esports, those two games are dead.
Sorry if you weren't around or didn't like our scene back then. WE EXISTED.
-__-
Don't tell me what we did and didn't do. I was there. Dude in 2008 and all that jazz the youtubing and all that crap was still relatively fresh.
Prior to that no one was streaming. We would have restreams for MSL, OSL, PL and that was about it. TSL started when gee golly. You guessed it 2008. When did guys really start streaming? 08. When was SC2 announced? WWI 2007.
It's all relative.
What goes around comes around. Blizzard is already wasting money on making RTS games when they could be making a ton more on other projects lmao.
This has been amusing nonetheless. This wasn't my first row with you either. You and I have bunted heads several times now and I'm sure this won't be the last either considering you don't like to look at things chronologically.
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Normally i dislike everything destiny says or does and i think he is a gigantic douche but
i have to agree with him on every word in his post.
Blizzard is the only "one" who could save sc2. They have to make a good game (lets face it: WoL was okayish for a game of its time and HotS is looking absolutely like a joke!) and have to integrate with its community and support esports within the game.
IMO they kinda missed the train. And companies like Valve and Riot (even S2 with hon) are using the esport hype train to their full advantage.
Blizzard just isnt the innovative company it was 10 years ago. That has become more than obvious with recent releases.
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Loging into SC/BW Bnet was like loging into some giant chatroom where tons of people you knew (and didn't) sat in and chatted away. It kinda felt like "home", there was that damn idiot, the cool guy....
Loging into SC2 Bnet feels like... Staring at some blank menue screen that waits for you to press a button with the least possible human interaction...
The giant UMS scene in SC/BW and WC3 was there because they were pretty social games as soon as you weren't ingame. So people of variing skilllevels searched stuff to play with each other. So it did not lose its appeal to casuals/bads as fast and for more competetive players there was allways a serious match to find anyway.
SC2 totally and utterly failed to create an ingame community, therefore casuals lost interest quickly and even pretty competitive players (so high Diamond++++) feel "alone" which is just not good.
But hey, it has Facebook integration!
Btw: The Chatchannels they have now are a joke and came WAY to late, by this time most people already laid the game down again.
Btw2: Hots won't change a thing because it is neither addressing the ingame nor the bnet issues.
Btw3: The lead designers of Bnet2.0 should just be fired and never ever given another job for something like a Bnet again. Same goes imho for the designers of SC2, but they did not fail THAT bad, in comparison they even made a godlike job......
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I think Clan Support is really important, it keeps you motivated if you are part of a community, you will try to get better together and play for eachanother in clan wars. Just look at yourself, you are in ROOT for other reasons too not just money. You like to be part of a close group
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its sad to say but they took a year to remove close spawn and everyone was talking about it, how can we expect them to put 'avatars' in the game and everything else
it all depends on blizzard and blizzard is just... blizzard
sc2 will never be as succesful as lol/dota2
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On October 17 2012 16:19 enemy2010 wrote:
I remember a thread some months ago where a guy made the following suggestion:
Form a team of pro-gamers, that sits down to develop new maps and new game modes with implementing the nerfs and buffs for the units according to the current state of the game and the community demands.
Lets do our own version of SC2. An SC2 how we want it. Lets use the game and the platform and the infrastructure that Blizzard gave us and develope according to our preferences.
Why don't we do that? Why don't we get our own hands on this mess and start tidying up?
Sure, and the end it's Blizzards game. But we give them all the support they want, we'd LOVE (do I really say that?) to pay for awesome features like name change or awesome maps or fancy stuff.
So you are saying pro gamers of all people should take their practice/free time to develop the game they payed blizzard to do? After that people can keep hosting tournaments for a community made game while paying HUGE royalties to blizzard, and still using Bnet2.0 as the base of the game.
I dont think I have ever heard of a worse suggestion.
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Its kind of like Diablo 3 now too - they finally decided to make some nice changes, TOO LITTLE TOO LATE
Most people already quit the game and moves on
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On October 17 2012 16:18 Cuce wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 15:54 Tyree wrote:
Many competitive games have ways around this, such as FPS games today that put people into teams and try to split the players in a even way. One of the reasons why Call of Duty is super popular, because even the worst player in the world can sit down, get a few kills and level up, he is rewarded despite not being very good. WoW is so easy that the only people who should struggle with it, have never played a videogame in their lives, i mean literally not a single one. LoL and DOTA like games at least allow you to have a back and forth match, there is no "cheese" to be scared of where the game ends in 4 minutes, even if you suck you still get to play, kill some guys and there you go.
Starcraft 2 just does not have that, unless you take this game seriously (which the minority does) then there is no reason to even boot the game up.
Blizzard has shown that they kinda understand the issue by removing losses seen on Bnet, but the core problem is that just finding a good "game" of SC2 is hard, you can play for 2-3 hours a night and maybe only get 1 great game that is interesting and back and forth. Yet when i play any other online game (yes EVERY other) i always get into competitive matches where i get to *play* even if i lose i still had fun, SC2 is rarely fun.
Thats because, players do not dictate how a game of lol or dota will play out. one of the biggest noob question in starcraft bw and sc2 or wc3 or anyother proper rts game is "when should I attack?" and god is it an important question. when and how to attack. Mobas do not have this question. game is already attacking on its own. players just join the action. games keeps them on pace for first 10 minutes. keeping them safe and sound with towers, giving them safety income, safety resources to no fall to behind, 3 layers of safety towers so game would not end so fast that way players would not be playing for noting for last 10 minutes and on and on. no matter how agressive you play you cant dictate how the game will play. There is too many safety to keep the game on its safe and "fun" route. there is no way to end the game in 4 min, or 10 or 15. you cant all in, you cant make huge game plans cause as players your effect on gameplay is minimal relative to rts games, where you are the gameplay. This moba aproach result as always having fun games. pretty much same game every time, but yeah I guess we can say its fun. Yet the difference is huge, you will always be playing the prearrenged fun game. when you get a fun starcraft game you know what happens, you made that fun game. some people prefer one over the other, thats why they play/watch one over the other. we always knew what majority will choose, so why do we even arguing on how sc2 lost popularity race over lol or dota.
I don't think you've ever watched a game of dota in your life. You can definitely "all in" with hard early push strats, and deciding when to attack and defend is huge.
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According to the link Destiny linked regarding the games played in Korea, more people play WC3 than SC2. Also, D3 + SC2 + BW + WC3 + WoW is slightly more than Blade & Soul, which is half of LoL. That's really pathetic.
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I think a lot of us already knew this, just the way blizzard has handled things , after marketing the game as an e-sport, is just really confusing. I think once of the biggest issues they're facing is the interface design in games, not only in sc2, but in d3 aswell.
You only have to go into dota 2 for a few minutes to realize what a real "esport" game can do. Here we are in sc2,waiting for features like changing clan tags lol. And for all it's awesomeness, the dota 2 interface is actually just a modified war 3 interface with more stuff added to it,which makes it seem like blizzard are just lazy and/or stubborn to change something that has not been taken to well by the fans.
But one thing I disagree with is the match making ranking part. It actually caused a lot of my casual friends to continue playing so that they would not be bronze or silver,until they got to a level they deemed respectable, and while doing this it made them watch pro vods of strats etc,getting them into the pro scene.
And it's going to be tough to compete with games like dota and LoL, because the games are free to play (dota eventually). Plus, more importantly, they have a more casual appeal, thats just the type of games. it's very hard to combat the casual appeal of a moba game.
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I have been voicing the idea of a hidden mmr leveling system for a while. You have the choice to go to a separate ladder once your hidden mmr is high enough.
2 Sets of map pools, one designed for competitive play and another designed for casuals. Blizzard needs to fix overpowered cheese as its hurting the lower levels probably way more than higher levels.
A norush or treaty game rather than melee, where lesser players can feel like pros by getting to the big armies etc without having to about build orders and cheeses.
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Part of the reason that I think the game has a skill ceiling on viewers is that it is not as interesting to watch as it could be. While casuals might not want to play a highly competitive game, this is what viewers want to see. While the interface could be made better to appeal to casuals, taking steps to make actual game play simpler will hurt viewership of the game. One side point (that i always make in discussion of the games popularity) is that increasing viewership/sales is not necessarily in the best interest of players/viewers. If the game is dumbed down in order to appeal more to casuals, that sucks for the serious players/viewers.
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On October 17 2012 16:25 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 16:19 enemy2010 wrote:
I remember a thread some months ago where a guy made the following suggestion:
Form a team of pro-gamers, that sits down to develop new maps and new game modes with implementing the nerfs and buffs for the units according to the current state of the game and the community demands.
Lets do our own version of SC2. An SC2 how we want it. Lets use the game and the platform and the infrastructure that Blizzard gave us and develope according to our preferences.
Why don't we do that? Why don't we get our own hands on this mess and start tidying up?
Sure, and the end it's Blizzards game. But we give them all the support they want, we'd LOVE (do I really say that?) to pay for awesome features like name change or awesome maps or fancy stuff. So you are saying pro gamers of all people should take their practice/free time to develop the game they payed blizzard to do? After that people can keep hosting tournaments for a community made game while paying HUGE royalties to blizzard, and still using Bnet2.0 as the base of the game. I dont think I have ever heard of a worse suggestion.
Well, at least it would be a start and not sitting around crying over Blizzard's fatigue.
How long did we wait for chatrooms to be implemented?
If the community starts to act by its own, maybe Blizzard finally see the seriousness on this topic.
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EPT
