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I dislike Destiny, in fact I really dislike him quite a bit. He's.. well let's just say he's not someone I'd want to agree with yet here I am agreeing with him.
You can say genre differences all day but if I am a company and I see sc2 tournament with 50,000 viewers and a LoL or Dota2 tournament with almost a quarter million. What tournament am I going to sponsor if I could only pick one? The answer isn't sc2 as much as it kind of pains me to say it.
Blizzard has repeatedly dropped the ball, ignored problems, and treated the franchise it built like crap. Amazingly enough people are not enjoying it as much and not as many are watching and playing. I don't know how to fix it, I am not sure you can. I do know that making battle.net not suck, giving the game LAN(at least give tournaments) would be a good step in the right direction. But you know, and I know and they know it's not going to happen.
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On October 17 2012 15:37 udgnim wrote:
said it before and I'll say it again
Stephano is single handedly keeping foreigner interest in SC2 alive
I don't even watch Stephano?!?!?! And I'm interested in all sorts of foreigner players.
To each their own, I guess.
EDIT: Okay, what I really should say is that yes, Stephano does attract a good amount of foreigner views, but you can't discount a lot of other players out there who are just as interesting. Not to mention the Koreans! A lot of foreigners watch for the bigshots  .
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they making game for the money and sucking on bw famme i can only hope they start make for the people and after all expansions this game will be complete unholy non stop bullet proff better than everything if not we can go kick some makers to a... 
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Good points. I never thought about esports in america, always thought esports in korea.
I enjoyed reading it!
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On October 17 2012 15:35 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 15:32 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 17 2012 15:08 HaruRH wrote:On October 17 2012 14:58 Kambing wrote:On October 17 2012 14:54 Orracle wrote:On October 17 2012 14:49 AndAgain wrote:
I think Destiny doesn't understand the concept of markets. There are games that suit casual players like LoL, and there are games that suit competitive players like SC2. Just because LoL may be more popular doesn't mean there's anything wrong with SC2 being competitive.
It's like how fast food joints are way more popular than steakhouses. That doesn't mean steakhouses should be more like fast food joints. Ruth's Chris Steakhouse or McDonald's both have one thing in common, they're constantly expanding. There is always a market for their products. Why would pros continue playing SC2 if there is no market? They can transfer to LOL or Dota where there is going to be a lot of money. Eh. By that same logic, why don't all the Major League Soccer players transfer over to the NFL since the NFL is far more successful than MLS? 1. Their talents and skills don't translate well enough to football, or 2. They like soccer more than football. But skills from sc2 do translate to LoL/dota. Examples are plentiful, eg: iceiceice (dominated sc2 SEA ladder, now dominates dota 2), fruitdealer (went to LoL), etc LoL,and dota managed to siphon players from sc2 to them, but sc2 isnt able to attract players from LoL and dota to them. and Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez were both basketball players in college who now play in the NFL. Also a lot of the sc2 players who went to LoL, fell on in sc2 like Fruitdealer and Rainbow. And there is still a ton of money in sc2. Guess which game has given out more money than any other? SC2. http://www.esportsearnings.com/gamesIn its 2 years of existence its paid out a million dollars more than the holy grail that is BW. LoL has paid out 3.4 mil. 2 million was just paid out this past weekend in ONE tournament. All paid by Riot too. Dota has also paid out 3.4 mil, 3.2 mil is from the TWO Internationals. Such a large percentage of both games money has come from a total of 3 tournaments. Thats not healthy. Arguably the second biggest Dota 2 tournament (outside of China) is happening this weekend, StarLadder 3. Quantic and EG aren't even sending their teams which qualified because its not even worth it. How often does that happen for EG in sc2? They send people everywhere all the time. Yet they won't send their Dota team to one of the biggest tournaments because its not worth it. I love Dota 2, i find it to be a fantastic game. But its not near the size of SC2 right now. They have a LOOOONG way to go still. Complaints that $100,000 prize pools haven't raised are ridiculous as well. Its a one hundred fucking grand! Thats a lot of money. MLG tournaments pay out more in sc2 than they do LoL. DH Valencia actually paid out more in sc2 than it did in LoL, Dota 2 and CS GO combined. That's a crock and you know it because we didn't have the sponsorships we did back then and there's so much tournaments going on that what the hell you think? Whereas a PL season would go on for an eternity and you would only have several MSLs and OSLs a year. So no. It's centralized whereas now every team, personality, sponsor, organization is hosting their own fucking tournaments. Don't even compare the two.
How is it a crock? In 2 years, sc2 has given away a million dollars more than BW did in what, 14? BW had sponsorships, just not outside of Korea cause the game didn't take off outside of Korea.
I don't see how saying sc2 has sponsorships and way more tournaments with a ton of different people running the tournaments is a negative against sc2? Isn't that a huge positive?
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On October 17 2012 15:09 larse wrote:
Actually, people disagreed with Destiny's argument.
Most people for the last 2 years have been saying that there are not enough hardcore features and too many casual features. People have been asking for clan, in-game tournament, more stats, more prominent ladder 1v1, and have been criticizing the "dumb-down" of arcade and rearrangement of the order of 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 in the ladder screen.
Now you are blaming Blizzard of not paying attention to casuals. Of course they don't. People didn't ask for casual features but all they have asked are hardcore features. Now you just changed?
Even though I agree that casuals should be the focus rather than the hardcore, SC2's failture is the resulted from people's and the community's own fault that is the constant demand of more hardcore features and the constant blame of SC2's dumb-down features.
Very good post, though I doubt Blizzard listens that much to hardcore gamers, else the game would have been very different imho.
I kind of disagree with Destiny too because he forgets that all the casual aspect of BW was actually created by users (fast maps, UMS, NR 15min). Bnet was just more free, so it allowed ppl to take the game where they wanted to go. Sc2 is trying to recreate this artificially in a much more restricted environnement (bnet 2.0).
I'd like to humbly add something to this thread : one thing has changed from the BW days too : community bitching.
Back in the days everybody thought and "knew" that PvZ was a nightmare of a matchup but ppl, instead of sending rants to blizzard just took the game as it was and tried to deal with, and then came Bisu.
Same goes with bnet 1.0, you guys just seem to forget the black screens, the "frozen" games appearing in the game lobbies, the map DL bugs, the inability to create games if you do not foward ports (wich can be a total pain in the ass depending on your router), the spamming, the hackers, the ad bots, the ppl spamming racist, offensive, porn links bullshit in the chat.
And the reaver AI, the goon AI, the goddam fucking GOLIATH AI, the fact that every fucking game was played on LT and there was no way ppl would join your game if it was any other map.
Seriously, I know BW is a better game overall, but the community sometimes goes a bit too far with the "everything old is cool, everything new sucks" hipster attitude.
Who cares if we don't get millions of dollars in prize pool ? SC ain't soccer and that's fine with me, I don't want to see stadiums filled with retards throwing beer cans at Fantasy ^^ As foreigners we've got A TON more content to watch and discuss that anyone at any time of the BW scene. You guys just weren't there when it took half an hour downloading a 120 pixels VOD from yaoyuan.
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On October 17 2012 15:37 udgnim wrote:
said it before and I'll say it again
Stephano is single handedly keeping foreigner interest in SC2 alive
Holy shit... i just realised that it's true for me atleast. I'd most likely stop watching if he quit.
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completely agree. blizzard has a long history of being clueless. i personally don't do much more than scan tl every few days, haven't actually played sc2 in months. and hots is certainly not pulling me back in.
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SC2's health will ultimately depend on whether it is fun to play or spectate. The answers for both of these, for me, has deteriorated into a resounding no.
What Destiny proposes won't fix the underlying problem of SC2 being a poorly designed game. The game has become a no rush deathballfest where games lead and are decided on a single battle.
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On October 17 2012 15:40 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 15:35 StarStruck wrote:On October 17 2012 15:32 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 17 2012 15:08 HaruRH wrote:On October 17 2012 14:58 Kambing wrote:On October 17 2012 14:54 Orracle wrote:On October 17 2012 14:49 AndAgain wrote:
I think Destiny doesn't understand the concept of markets. There are games that suit casual players like LoL, and there are games that suit competitive players like SC2. Just because LoL may be more popular doesn't mean there's anything wrong with SC2 being competitive.
It's like how fast food joints are way more popular than steakhouses. That doesn't mean steakhouses should be more like fast food joints. Ruth's Chris Steakhouse or McDonald's both have one thing in common, they're constantly expanding. There is always a market for their products. Why would pros continue playing SC2 if there is no market? They can transfer to LOL or Dota where there is going to be a lot of money. Eh. By that same logic, why don't all the Major League Soccer players transfer over to the NFL since the NFL is far more successful than MLS? 1. Their talents and skills don't translate well enough to football, or 2. They like soccer more than football. But skills from sc2 do translate to LoL/dota. Examples are plentiful, eg: iceiceice (dominated sc2 SEA ladder, now dominates dota 2), fruitdealer (went to LoL), etc LoL,and dota managed to siphon players from sc2 to them, but sc2 isnt able to attract players from LoL and dota to them. and Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez were both basketball players in college who now play in the NFL. Also a lot of the sc2 players who went to LoL, fell on in sc2 like Fruitdealer and Rainbow. And there is still a ton of money in sc2. Guess which game has given out more money than any other? SC2. http://www.esportsearnings.com/gamesIn its 2 years of existence its paid out a million dollars more than the holy grail that is BW. LoL has paid out 3.4 mil. 2 million was just paid out this past weekend in ONE tournament. All paid by Riot too. Dota has also paid out 3.4 mil, 3.2 mil is from the TWO Internationals. Such a large percentage of both games money has come from a total of 3 tournaments. Thats not healthy. Arguably the second biggest Dota 2 tournament (outside of China) is happening this weekend, StarLadder 3. Quantic and EG aren't even sending their teams which qualified because its not even worth it. How often does that happen for EG in sc2? They send people everywhere all the time. Yet they won't send their Dota team to one of the biggest tournaments because its not worth it. I love Dota 2, i find it to be a fantastic game. But its not near the size of SC2 right now. They have a LOOOONG way to go still. Complaints that $100,000 prize pools haven't raised are ridiculous as well. Its a one hundred fucking grand! Thats a lot of money. MLG tournaments pay out more in sc2 than they do LoL. DH Valencia actually paid out more in sc2 than it did in LoL, Dota 2 and CS GO combined. That's a crock and you know it because we didn't have the sponsorships we did back then and there's so much tournaments going on that what the hell you think? Whereas a PL season would go on for an eternity and you would only have several MSLs and OSLs a year. So no. It's centralized whereas now every team, personality, sponsor, organization is hosting their own fucking tournaments. Don't even compare the two. How is it a crock? In 2 years, sc2 has given away a million dollars more than BW did in what, 14? BW had sponsorships, just not outside of Korea cause the game didn't take off outside of Korea. I don't see how saying sc2 has sponsorships and way more tournaments with a ton of different people running the tournaments is a negative against sc2? Isn't that a huge positive?
Totally different situations. You cannot compare where we were 14 years ago to now. P.S. we had sponsors albeit very small ones. We had cash prizes for leagues too, albeit small ones.
Everything from the technology of streaming to the economics and growth are layers buddy.
It's a fool's errand.
As for your last line. The growth outside of Korea has been great; however, it's foolish to think all of these organizers, sponsors and teams will remain in the scene.
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The second valve or riot makes an RPG I will be the first one to buy it and never play sc2 again. The only reason we are hanging on to SC2 is because we don't want to admit it is failing. I have lost a lot of hope with Blizzard when I played the utter-disaster that was Diablo 3. Watching the LoL community grow and The International 1-2 is leaving me empty when I play sc2. It's so strange to see Riot and Valve putting so much effort in growing a game and responding to feedback, while you see Blizzard rip us off time and time again.
Again, if Valve makes an RPG, even if it has some problems, that would be a huge wake-up call to Blizzard that they need to reconsider what starcraft is.
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Some good points. I've played War2 and War3 extensively in the past, and what really made me addicted was the social aspect: joining clans and hanging out with friends, especially with all the great custom games back then. I really don't know why Blizzard ruined the system with the new Battlenet.
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On October 17 2012 15:41 ChApFoU wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 15:09 larse wrote:
Actually, people disagreed with Destiny's argument.
Most people for the last 2 years have been saying that there are not enough hardcore features and too many casual features. People have been asking for clan, in-game tournament, more stats, more prominent ladder 1v1, and have been criticizing the "dumb-down" of arcade and rearrangement of the order of 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 in the ladder screen.
Now you are blaming Blizzard of not paying attention to casuals. Of course they don't. People didn't ask for casual features but all they have asked are hardcore features. Now you just changed?
Even though I agree that casuals should be the focus rather than the hardcore, SC2's failture is the resulted from people's and the community's own fault that is the constant demand of more hardcore features and the constant blame of SC2's dumb-down features. Very good post, though I doubt Blizzard listens that much to hardcore gamers, else the game would have been very different imho. I kind of disagree with Destiny too because he forgets that all the casual aspect of BW was actually created by users (fast maps, UMS, NR 15min). Bnet was just more free, so it allowed ppl to take the game where they wanted to go. Sc2 is trying to recreate this artificially in a much more restricted environnement (bnet 2.0). I'd like to humbly add something to this thread : one thing has changed from the BW days too : community bitching. Back in the days everybody thought and "knew" that PvZ was a nightmare of a matchup but ppl, instead of sending rants to blizzard just took the game as it was and tried to deal with, and then came Bisu. Same goes with bnet 1.0, you guys just seem to forget the black screens, the "frozen" games appearing in the game lobbies, the map DL bugs, the inability to create games if you do not foward ports (wich can be a total pain in the ass depending on your router), the spamming, the hackers, the ad bots, the ppl spamming racist, offensive, porn links bullshit in the chat. And the reaver AI, the goon AI, the goddam fucking GOLIATH AI, the fact that every fucking game was played on LT and there was no way ppl would join your game if it was any other map. Seriously, I know BW is a better game overall, but the community sometimes goes a bit too far with the "everything old is cool, everything new sucks" hipster attitude. Who cares if we don't get millions of dollars in prize pool ? SC ain't soccer and that's fine with me, I don't want to see stadiums filled with retards throwing beer cans at Fantasy ^^ As foreigners we've got A TON more content to watch and discuss that anyone at any time of the BW scene. You guys just weren't there when it took half an hour downloading a 120 pixels VOD from yaoyuan.
Once again Destiny is pointing the fault at the user interface more than anything else.
It isn't friendly.
I'll revert to what I said before and keep it short: look at UMS gaming in SC2. Need I say more?
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I agree with most of the things that have been said. As a former sc2 viewer who watched almost all tournaments, I have completely stopped watching them and started watching dota-only tournaments, mind you without ever playing a single game of dota or even downloading it. Dota to me at least is simply more fun to watch, even though i get a confused look and am too lazy to play the game to find out what a "rapier" is.
My personal opinion is that Blizzard's main failure is with its lack of marketing and protoss. As a former protoss player, the race is seriously fundamentally flawed and needs a re-vamp. Maybe hots will fix it, but i have my doubts.
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On October 17 2012 15:47 FinalForm wrote:
The second valve or riot makes an RPG I will be the first one to buy it and never play sc2 again. The only reason we are hanging on to SC2 is because we don't want to admit it is failing. I have lost a lot of hope with Blizzard when I played the utter-disaster that was Diablo 3. Watching the LoL community grow and The International 1-2 is leaving me empty when I play sc2. It's so strange to see Riot and Valve putting so much effort in growing a game and responding to feedback, while you see Blizzard rip us off time and time again.
Again, if Valve makes an RPG, even if it has some problems, that would be a huge wake-up call to Blizzard that they need to reconsider what starcraft is.
I gotta second this. Riot/Valve are doing a fantastic job. Blizzard just reminds me of a bunch of procrastinators.
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On October 17 2012 15:47 FinalForm wrote:
The second valve or riot makes an RPG I will be the first one to buy it and never play sc2 again. The only reason we are hanging on to SC2 is because we don't want to admit it is failing. I have lost a lot of hope with Blizzard when I played the utter-disaster that was Diablo 3. Watching the LoL community grow and The International 1-2 is leaving me empty when I play sc2. It's so strange to see Riot and Valve putting so much effort in growing a game and responding to feedback, while you see Blizzard rip us off time and time again.
Again, if Valve makes an RPG, even if it has some problems, that would be a huge wake-up call to Blizzard that they need to reconsider what starcraft is.
I assume you mean to say RTS.
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Problem is SC2 isn't even a complete game. It's not even a balanced game. But we're trying to make it a competitive Esport.
SC2 isn't any where near to a complete product that BW was. It doesn't matter how much fanboys defend it. Most of us want the game to succeed on it's own merits. But we keep mentioning BW, because with a history like that...how can you possibly go so wrong. It seemed so easy.
Also there's too much of a cluster of content, that the importance of anyone tournament wanes. BW had a limited number of tournaments. This made the results and the players that much more important. So maybe some of these leagues need to die, so that we have a focus.
In any case the design of the game is Blizzards fault. And that's where the biggest flaws lay. The game isn't innovative. BW was hard, but it was still casually enjoyable. But that difficult made the competitive side of it that much more compelling. SC2's competitiveness lacks that the same level of excitement for me. The game is relevant, and BW isn't. But the memorable, mind blowing games BW delivered SC2 has yet to deliver. And that as fan limits my involvement, even as a spectator.
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So much discussion on this lately, why not realise that team sports will always be more popular and most of the time more casual than 1v1s? The casual part brings in on the audiences, everyone can hit a football, but hitting a tennis ball is already harder..etc
its not Sc2 vs LoL vs Doda but sc2,lol,dota...
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On October 17 2012 15:46 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 15:40 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 17 2012 15:35 StarStruck wrote:On October 17 2012 15:32 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 17 2012 15:08 HaruRH wrote:On October 17 2012 14:58 Kambing wrote:On October 17 2012 14:54 Orracle wrote:On October 17 2012 14:49 AndAgain wrote:
I think Destiny doesn't understand the concept of markets. There are games that suit casual players like LoL, and there are games that suit competitive players like SC2. Just because LoL may be more popular doesn't mean there's anything wrong with SC2 being competitive.
It's like how fast food joints are way more popular than steakhouses. That doesn't mean steakhouses should be more like fast food joints. Ruth's Chris Steakhouse or McDonald's both have one thing in common, they're constantly expanding. There is always a market for their products. Why would pros continue playing SC2 if there is no market? They can transfer to LOL or Dota where there is going to be a lot of money. Eh. By that same logic, why don't all the Major League Soccer players transfer over to the NFL since the NFL is far more successful than MLS? 1. Their talents and skills don't translate well enough to football, or 2. They like soccer more than football. But skills from sc2 do translate to LoL/dota. Examples are plentiful, eg: iceiceice (dominated sc2 SEA ladder, now dominates dota 2), fruitdealer (went to LoL), etc LoL,and dota managed to siphon players from sc2 to them, but sc2 isnt able to attract players from LoL and dota to them. and Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez were both basketball players in college who now play in the NFL. Also a lot of the sc2 players who went to LoL, fell on in sc2 like Fruitdealer and Rainbow. And there is still a ton of money in sc2. Guess which game has given out more money than any other? SC2. http://www.esportsearnings.com/gamesIn its 2 years of existence its paid out a million dollars more than the holy grail that is BW. LoL has paid out 3.4 mil. 2 million was just paid out this past weekend in ONE tournament. All paid by Riot too. Dota has also paid out 3.4 mil, 3.2 mil is from the TWO Internationals. Such a large percentage of both games money has come from a total of 3 tournaments. Thats not healthy. Arguably the second biggest Dota 2 tournament (outside of China) is happening this weekend, StarLadder 3. Quantic and EG aren't even sending their teams which qualified because its not even worth it. How often does that happen for EG in sc2? They send people everywhere all the time. Yet they won't send their Dota team to one of the biggest tournaments because its not worth it. I love Dota 2, i find it to be a fantastic game. But its not near the size of SC2 right now. They have a LOOOONG way to go still. Complaints that $100,000 prize pools haven't raised are ridiculous as well. Its a one hundred fucking grand! Thats a lot of money. MLG tournaments pay out more in sc2 than they do LoL. DH Valencia actually paid out more in sc2 than it did in LoL, Dota 2 and CS GO combined. That's a crock and you know it because we didn't have the sponsorships we did back then and there's so much tournaments going on that what the hell you think? Whereas a PL season would go on for an eternity and you would only have several MSLs and OSLs a year. So no. It's centralized whereas now every team, personality, sponsor, organization is hosting their own fucking tournaments. Don't even compare the two. How is it a crock? In 2 years, sc2 has given away a million dollars more than BW did in what, 14? BW had sponsorships, just not outside of Korea cause the game didn't take off outside of Korea. I don't see how saying sc2 has sponsorships and way more tournaments with a ton of different people running the tournaments is a negative against sc2? Isn't that a huge positive? Totally different situations. You cannot compare where we were 14 years ago to now. P.S. we had sponsors albeit very small ones. We had cash prizes for leagues too, albeit small ones. Everything from the technology of streaming to the economics and growth are layers buddy. It's a fool's errand. As for your last line. The growth outside of Korea has been great; however, it's foolish to think all of these organizers, sponsors and teams will remain in the scene.
and yet today we actually have a foreign scene, when in BW we didnt. And its not even 14 years ago. Compare where BW was a year before sc2 came out to sc2 a year after it came out. Its not even close in comparison.
the point of my post is that there is quite a bit of money in sc2. More than most people realize. And the fact that its not all coming from the developer is even more impressive. Yeah some leagues, teams and sponsors will come and go. It will be that way for sc2, LoL, and Valve. But i know if IPL gets cut off with the sale of IGN, that sc2 will still be going strong. But if Valve doesn't hold another International, or Riot realizes its time to just stop wasting money on esports, those two games are dead.
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It's simple really (concerning the part about blizzard, not esports in general).
I'll mostly be winging shit and figures below, but I'm certain it's generally correct.
The reason we don't see all the ever promised features is not because the sc2 development team are assholes, it's more likely because the size of that team is kept in the very lower double digit range. SC2 is a lower priority project and doesn't get to have the programmers it needs. The core team are doing most of the necessary work and planning. Once it's crunch time and once that core team've got everything laid out, they bring in a bunch of people the last month(s), and implement whatever can be implemented in that time (most likely not nearly enough).
Rest of the time, b.net dudes are working for D3, project titan, or some other secret project. Why else would they have promised 1000 things during the WoL beta, of which they could deliver very little. Even when there were mid development cycle updates (chat channels), they probably came into fruition as a result of immense and constant nagging from the SC2 team (who would've rather wanted clan support, shared replay viewing, tournament support etc implemented in one go in that same patch). Instead they were probably lent a couple b.net programmers for a few months and had to prioritize on what was most important.
If they fuck up the promised features for HotS. I'll know the above to be truer than true.
Front end name change for 5 dollars? Would have been very very very very low priority in the scheme of the rest of undelivered-features-land.
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EPT
