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On October 27 2012 14:50 fearus wrote:
If you want to do another comparison, lets look at MMA (the sport - no pun intended) - how many PPV does it sell and how many people actually compete/train in it and enjoy getting their faces punched and elbowed on a weekly basis?
It is also by far a really non-casual friendly sport, yet it is a great spectator sport.
Starcraft is a video game, it lives and dies with the number of people that play it, period. You can only push sports analogies so far (and most of them are inaccurate anyway).
Starcraft's "fanbase" is almost uniformly made out of gamers. Gamers have a much easier and cheaper access to a massive variety of games they can play themselves than MMA fans have to facilities and training, and the fact it's a physical activity practically disqualifies a great number of them.
Gamers are also more likely to want to spend their (limited) free time playing a game than watching (let alone paying to watch) somebody else play a game they got bored of a year ago.
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How do we grow StarCraft 2?
You can't.
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Actually, we can by recommending the game to friends or writing about the game on non-starcraft websites. ^^
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the biggest problem with SC2?
Well its not fun to play
Has zero community features of any worth
no initiative for casuals to actually play
pros can defend the game all they want (its their pay check at the end of the day) but if people don't play this game, everything reduces - player numbers, people watching sc2 streams, people picking up the next expansion etc etc.
oh and one last thing: DjWheat on a recent ep used a breakingbad vs american idol reference to try and prove a point, but he didnt because he forgot the fact that american idol is actually watched by millions that highly rate it and enjoy watching it - the same cant be said about sc2. His personal opinion nullified his point just because he didnt see AI as 'worthy' tv.
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My hopes are that maybe 2-3 years after Legacy of the Void is released this game will at least come close to being the success BW was..keep in mind that BW was released in 1998, this game was released in 2010. Patience friends 
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On October 27 2012 17:53 iamtheoneneo wrote:
the biggest problem with SC2?
Well its not fun to play
Has zero community features of any worth
no initiative for casuals to actually play
pros can defend the game all they want (its their pay check at the end of the day) but if people don't play this game, everything reduces - player numbers, people watching sc2 streams, people picking up the next expansion etc etc.
oh and one last thing: DjWheat on a recent ep used a breakingbad vs american idol reference to try and prove a point, but he didnt because he forgot the fact that american idol is actually watched by millions that highly rate it and enjoy watching it - the same cant be said about sc2. His personal opinion nullified his point just because he didnt see AI as 'worthy' tv.
His comparison was that American Idol might be seen as not very intellectual/high quality but reaching millions and Breaking Bad being high quality but having smaller audience. He stated so pretty clearly.
I find SC2 very fun to play, and like the challenge of a difficult game allowing me to constantly improve myself. If you don't see it that way, that's fine, different tastes. That's basically Wheat's point.
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The spike in Popularity of SC2 was about exactly as long as it takes the average person to discover the game, learn to play, discover how much work it takes, complain about it, and go back to First Person Shooters. Facts prove that this is about 70% of people who start to play the game.
IMHO the majority of people who WOULD be interested in Starcraft have already played it, gotten whooped up, and decided that it was too hard. Of course, these people who quit playing usually blame it on something else like, it's boring, it's repetitive, some shit about balance, or something about how much time it takes- all of which are complete BS but make fantastic excuses.
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The problem with SC2 is very simple: it was not designed for team games.
What is great about LoL or CoD? You can blame your losses on your team. And I do not mean talk shit, I mean that everyone can quickly shrug off a loss by thinking that their team messed it up.
SC2 team games are awful. They do not flow properly. The game is balanced on an edge and falls off when it is not 1v1. The maps are forced to be small without enough bases due to the system requirements.
If the team games were actually good then people would be playing the game for a lot longer than two years. Out of all the SC2 players I know I am the only one that enjoys 1v1 which means I know longer know many SC2 players.
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Yeah I really wish the team maps were bigger, seems like you just get 2 bases per player, it's like steppes of war.
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On October 27 2012 17:44 darkness wrote:
How do we grow StarCraft 2?
You can't.
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Actually, we can by recommending the game to friends or writing about the game on non-starcraft websites. ^^
It will probably be ineffective, by now who isn't aware of Starcraft 2 with all of the marketing and youtube promotions that have happened since it started. I would think 95% of the people you could make aware of SC2 are already aware, have already played it or watched it, and have moved on (or are still playing/watching). I don't think watching a husky "banelings banelings ooh" music video is going to do it either 
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Topic sounds like game is made to competitively which is funny because I think the problem is its not made competitively enough. It is in the middle of casual and competitive where no one is happy. The game needs to have less focus on "cool" things like death ball colossus lasers owning another death ball. There needs to be focus on little engagements all over the map. The game should punish people trying to death ball rather than reward...
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On October 28 2012 06:29 Powster wrote:
Topic sounds like game is made to competitively which is funny because I think the problem is its not made competitively enough. It is in the middle of casual and competitive where no one is happy. The game needs to have less focus on "cool" things like death ball colossus lasers owning another death ball. There needs to be focus on little engagements all over the map. The game should punish people trying to death ball rather than reward...
I agree with your first 2 sentences.
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On October 28 2012 03:37 kmillz wrote:My hopes are that maybe 2-3 years after Legacy of the Void is released this game will at least come close to being the success BW was..keep in mind that BW was released in 1998, this game was released in 2010. Patience friends
BW was already big and succesful in 2000. You should also consider that BW didn't have any succesful predecessor to hype it up (or give a push), people didn't have internetz and gamemakers didn't consider any esports back then.
SC2 had everything and blew it up.
On October 28 2012 06:29 Powster wrote:
Topic sounds like game is made to competitively which is funny because I think the problem is its not made competitively enough. It is in the middle of casual and competitive where no one is happy. The game needs to have less focus on "cool" things like death ball colossus lasers owning another death ball. There needs to be focus on little engagements all over the map. The game should punish people trying to death ball rather than reward...
Making a game solely competitive sounds dumb to me. GAME should be FUN in anyway. You can't just take fun away, or then its not a game. Football, Basketball, Volleyball are all competitive and fun at the same time.
I admit that Boxing, MMA, and other fightings are not fun but competitive, but SC2 has nothing common with them. SC2 isn't any self defence skill or it hasn't been known for generations. Nobody makes up a new fighting style and make it succesful sport.
On October 27 2012 17:44 darkness wrote:
How do we grow StarCraft 2?
You can't.
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Actually, we can by recommending the game to friends or writing about the game on non-starcraft websites. ^^
Believe me, many people tried and it didn't work. SC2 has nothing to attract people.
Try luring friends into LOL. That works like a magic. Which is basically what Destiny is talking about. With no casual base sc2 doesn't have any bright future.
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On October 28 2012 06:48 CrtBalorda wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 06:29 Powster wrote:
Topic sounds like game is made to competitively which is funny because I think the problem is its not made competitively enough. It is in the middle of casual and competitive where no one is happy. The game needs to have less focus on "cool" things like death ball colossus lasers owning another death ball. There needs to be focus on little engagements all over the map. The game should punish people trying to death ball rather than reward... I agree with your first 2 sentences.
But there are punishments for playing deathball like storms, emp and vortex. But people deathball anyway, and you get battles that end in 10 seconds with one player with no army-which is another complaint about the game. Blizzard is aware of this though, since they've played with vortex, and deathballs in HOTS>
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destiny you suck so much. your just a stupid ugly man who wants to get some attention.
the only thing you do when opening such a thread is fearing the sc2 community.
User was temp banned for this post.
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If anyone thinks that prizepools 10k - 50k are not enough is just dumb. How can that be not enough? O_O
The problem is that there is no real growth in the actual "industry".
I would rather have 10k for a winner in a tournament, but normal job-like salaries on every major "professional" team. Thats why there is no stability. Sponsors are so wide spread, because there are so many tournaments that everythin is dying. Everythin is runnin it's own route and thats the problem. EVERY team can call itself pro this and pro that. Every tournament can be opened, without findin if the structure is ready to make a tournament. Same goes with the teams, and they last a week.
There is no oversight, and in my eyes thats the biggest problem.
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On October 28 2012 06:59 mtn wrote:
If anyone thinks that prizepools 10k - 50k are not enough is just dumb. How can that be not enough? O_O
The problem is that there is no real growth in the actual "industry".
I would rather have 10k for a winner in a tournament, but normal job-like salaries on every major "professional" team. Thats why there is no stability. Sponsors are so wide spread, because there are so many tournaments that everythin is dying. Everythin is runnin it's own route and thats the problem. EVERY team can call itself pro this and pro that. Every tournament can be opened, without findin if the structure is ready to make a tournament. Same goes with the teams, and they last a week.
There is no oversight, and in my eyes thats the biggest problem.
You mean if GSL and OSL were only tournaments things would be better?
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On October 27 2012 11:24 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 22:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The current prize money level represents that of a very serious sport. We need to be making some strides in better payout structures, and rewarding more spots, but in the grand scheme of things, we are in a decent place. There is enough prize money to keep developing this scene. It's always good to improve payouts, but it's not something that keeps this from being a successful sport.
To put some facts I was previously unaware of behind this point http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/124oni/total_prize_money_given_out_between_the_4th_of/
That really isn't a lot, or even relevant, you can also see all earnings ranked individually at http://sc2earnings.com/.
Either way, what I would like to see is the sponsorship deals between teams/players, not tournaments. I feel in this regard that LoL is in a great place and going forward, whereas I'm not sure SC2 is moving forward, my guess would be it's stagnated or diminished.
The esport scene as a whole is doing great and growing, I'm not sure how long people will want to watch the current infestor broodlord game that sc2 has turned into, I've greatly reduced my number of viewing hours since I can't stand to watch anything with a zerg due to the incredibly boring and drawn out playstyle with infestors that e-v-e-r-y-o-n-e is using.
I don't know, it feels sc2 has stagnated and I don't see WoL moving away from where it is now anytime soon, rather from what I see PvZ is going back to immortal sentry allin since P have realized trying to 3 base vs Z is pointless.
TvZ got into this wierd spot where every T thought mech was the solution and that worked for a few weeks but now it's incredibly boring 2 fac openings vs 3 base infestors almost every game with a banshee throwed in for flavor that usually does nothing.
I don't know, most games seem like a 10-13 minute no-rush snoozefest with one 15 second fight and its over, or a 18 minute slowpush across the map with fungal/blord that lasts 5-6 min and usually results in Z winning a war of attrition.
Yes it was exciting the first 10, 20, even 50 times. Now it's getting silly to watch. I dont know, I've got masters both as P and T, now I play once a week and still maintain master and slowly loosing interest.
For the sake of my TL account I'm not gonna discuss HotS :p
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The only real issue here is that you consider the game dying when compared to BW it is thriving at least in the foreign scene. The OSL/MSL never got as many foreign views as an MLG/GSL final. Now, you want to compare it to LoL and Dota2, sure, FTP helps them a bunch, then Blizzard in their greedy scheme decided to leave out vital features from WoL, so they could sell their expansions and make people pay $140 for what I think will still be an incomplete game. The campaign in each game wasn't like BW, and the social side doesn't exist like it did on battle.net 1.0 with everyone from SC to Diablo being on blizzard's chat channels. On the whole too, I don't really find the pro scene games that appealing at the moment, and Blizzard is about to fuck that up again with this expansion. The pros don't have the game figured out even 50% of what they had figured out in BW, and now they're going to throw new units into the mix, again part of their greedy strategy. I do wonder though when the expansion releases if they won't see a decrease in sales or stagnation despite the improvements to battle.net because the consumer will remember how quickly they became bored with SC2. But, despite all that this game is thriving when compared to the amount of consumption of BW foreign views.
Also I believe the pro market is far too diluted. There are too many events and the top pros aren't in all of them together. When someone wins a DH or an MLG it doesn't seem as impressive because not ALL the top talent it there. I really think the market needs condense quite a bit to improve the views.
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On October 28 2012 07:04 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 06:59 mtn wrote:
If anyone thinks that prizepools 10k - 50k are not enough is just dumb. How can that be not enough? O_O
The problem is that there is no real growth in the actual "industry".
I would rather have 10k for a winner in a tournament, but normal job-like salaries on every major "professional" team. Thats why there is no stability. Sponsors are so wide spread, because there are so many tournaments that everythin is dying. Everythin is runnin it's own route and thats the problem. EVERY team can call itself pro this and pro that. Every tournament can be opened, without findin if the structure is ready to make a tournament. Same goes with the teams, and they last a week.
There is no oversight, and in my eyes thats the biggest problem. You mean if GSL and OSL were only tournaments things would be better?
No. But you have daily about 10-15 tournaments, in which same 5-10 sponsors appear. Some cast simply from replays, and some normal live games.
To me its too wide spread. I would rather see 3-4 tournaments WEEKLY, with huge influence, that just wouldn't be a milkin cow for players. So instead sponsors goin to small tournaments, every day, they would rather invest in teams for better / safe environment(Salaries).
I don't want to bash small/ semi- large tournaments but there is TOO many of them. Go to Liquid calendar and go day by day. You might think its good, and everythin is okay, but most of these tournaments are just milkin the scene, and in fact destryin it. Because there is no WOW factor. Everyone is wantin to have a run for money.
Look on every single sport, Soccer , Football, Basketball, Hockey - You name it. They have their own Departments that take care of such things. Why? Because they dont want to have too much people that are just abusin the system. It needs to be orginized not just run like in your mothers backyard, with no permission.
Thats just my few cents.
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On October 27 2012 11:24 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 22:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The current prize money level represents that of a very serious sport. We need to be making some strides in better payout structures, and rewarding more spots, but in the grand scheme of things, we are in a decent place. There is enough prize money to keep developing this scene. It's always good to improve payouts, but it's not something that keeps this from being a successful sport.
To put some facts I was previously unaware of behind this point http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/124oni/total_prize_money_given_out_between_the_4th_of/
SC2 clearly stopped growing.
You can even take it from your statistics, Nestea, who hasn't been succesful past year is still top 3, which simply indicates that sc2 is stagnated if not declining.
OSL finals having 10k viewers tells me more than statistics gathered in 2,5 years.
On October 28 2012 07:11 mtn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 07:04 bokeevboke wrote:On October 28 2012 06:59 mtn wrote:
If anyone thinks that prizepools 10k - 50k are not enough is just dumb. How can that be not enough? O_O
The problem is that there is no real growth in the actual "industry".
I would rather have 10k for a winner in a tournament, but normal job-like salaries on every major "professional" team. Thats why there is no stability. Sponsors are so wide spread, because there are so many tournaments that everythin is dying. Everythin is runnin it's own route and thats the problem. EVERY team can call itself pro this and pro that. Every tournament can be opened, without findin if the structure is ready to make a tournament. Same goes with the teams, and they last a week.
There is no oversight, and in my eyes thats the biggest problem. You mean if GSL and OSL were only tournaments things would be better? No. But you have daily about 10-15 tournaments, in which same 5-10 sponsors appear. Some cast simply from replays, and some normal live games. To me its too wide spread. I would rather see 3-4 tournaments WEEKLY, with huge influence, that just wouldn't be a milkin cow for players. So instead sponsors goin to small tournaments, every day, they would rather invest in teams for better / safe environment(Salaries). I don't want to bash small/ semi- large tournaments but there is TOO many of them. Go to Liquid calendar and go day by day. You might think its good, and everythin is okay, but most of these tournaments are just milkin the scene, and in fact destryin it. Because there is no WOW factor. Everyone is wantin to have a run for money. Look on every single sport, Soccer , Football, Basketball, Hockey - You name it. They have their own Departments that take care of such things. Why? Because they dont want to have too much people that are just abusin the system. It needs to be orginized not just run like in your mothers backyard, with no permission. Thats just my few cents.
I'm not sure where are you going with this.
GSL is pretty weekly tournament with huge influence.
You have some major tournament almost every weekend.
Sponsors already pay to players.
And weekly tournaments is the only place for semi-pros to play. Coz they can't access big tournaments.
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EPT
