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On October 17 2012 18:22 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 18:14 Beyonder wrote:On October 17 2012 18:04 Evangelist wrote:
SC2 cannot compete with LoL. Why? Both LoL and DoTA are basically just RTS biased offshoots of familiar scenarios - MMO PvP. There's a nice little leveling system both within the game and outside of the game, they've got achievements, an ELO ladder and its a team game.
Simply put, SC2 remains the hardest multiplayer game in the world after BW itself (and no one plays BW these days). It was always going to have a drop off. WC3 remained popular not because of the base game but because of DoTA and customs. Blizzard have yet to have that nailed on fun custom game that keeps casuals playing Starcraft 2.
However, LoL as a game? Not even a patch on SC2. Neither is DoTA2. They're both awful grind'em'up team games, the PvP of which was better done in any number of MMOs. SC2 is comfortably the best multiplayer game on the market.
LoL and DoTA2 will very slowly start to die simply because the community in those games becomes increasingly hostile to newbies with time. SC2 by comparison is pretty welcoming, but the game itself is complicated. The level of cluelessness in your post is appalling. SC2 is indeed so welcoming that you need to be incredibly lucky to find teamliquid, or youre never going to talk to anyone besides the opponents that you have no time to talk to. I came to teamliquid after using this facility we call "google". I believe it is the most commonly used website in the world. The Liquipedia is the 8th link after searching for Starcraft 2. In fact, I'll make you look even more stupid by doing the following: Terran Strategy: 1st Protoss Strategy: 1st Zerg Strategy: 1st Starcraft 2 Strategy: 1st Hell even if I type in something as wishy washy as "how to play Starcraft 2" the liquipedia features on the first page. Guess what the first three queries of most new players to a game will be. They want to find out how the fuck to play it. EVERY SINGLE ATTEMPT leads you to TeamLiquid. I might add this is also true on Yahoo as well. It is in fact you that are clueless. Stop focusing on how shit Battle.net is and realize that the majority of support structures in any multiplayer game exist OUTSIDE THE GAME and in Starcraft 2's case, this site is it. Google confirms it. Most players will come here looking for strategy and if they stay in the community, that's great. If you seriously need to be lucky to type in the words "zerg strategy" into google then who the fuck is playing this game because they aren't people that make any sense.
I played broodwar for 6 years and sc2 in beta and never knew of team liquid.. and once i found it I didn't like the site cause of how elitist it seemed.. Now i go on it all the time but it took a while.
I have made soooooooo many friends through gaming in leagues my friends list contains 250+ people and there are always people online to talk to and play with..
My sc2 friends list? no more then 15 people. There is no community feel in sc2 and its not a given to go to team liquid.
Yes in leagues you can get bitched at for being bad as its a team game but that is no way going ton contribute to the death of the game. Dota had the most elitist terrible community in the world and yet still had an active game going into dota 2.
I have always enjoyed playing sc2 (not as much as playing leagues but i enjoyed it) but i was always a die hard fan of the game and watched every tournament i could. Now tho watching the game is just... boring. The only reason i have for watching games is if players i am really interested in are playing (idra, scarlett). Now all i do for tournaments is check the results after the fact.
Where as with leagues its the complete opposite. I have over a thousand wins and have been playing since beta but my desire to play and watch the game is GROWING. The way the community exists within the game is amazing (i don't have to go to an outside website to talk strategy) and the idea of every game giving you a reward is an amazing way to keep players interested.
Even in Korea where BW was their national sport you here about players like SC who only plays lol in the ST house and now coca, puzzle and min have quit sc2 to play leagues.
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On October 18 2012 01:52 Kenpark wrote:
I dont get all the shitting on sc2. LoL is obv a whole different model. In LoL you dont start at equal footing at the start of the game and this is for me a big part of any competitive game.
I just started playing a little LoL, cause I wanted to see what all the buzz is about. So I started some games with some friends who already played LoL. Now the point is with all the talent/rune stuff, that you are from the get go already at a pretty big disadvantage when playing against more experienced players.
The heros right from the start are at least 20-30 % stronger than their newer player counterparts. Imagine you are playing a tvt, where your opponent starts with 1-1 marines. Is that really the model you guys are praising here so much ? That you have to play around 300 games just to start equal ? Imo that counteracts the competetive spirit, although it is obv a good business model.
Hmm you don't make a lot of sense. In LoL you play with people who have the same lvl as you, so they have runes if you do, they dont if you dont
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On October 18 2012 01:54 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 01:44 Apolo wrote:
From the comments i've been reading, if we made a poll i would say about more than 90% of people here (mostly) agree with the OP, which is very bad for Blizzard. I would love to see Blizzard / Activision firing Dustin Browder and co. who have proven they don't know what they're doing. Either that or just give Valve or Riot the game. I'm sure they would rock it. Yes because the people posting on TL threads are known for getting things right.
You're distorting what i said. Yes "people posting on TL"can be wrong. But how many times has "the vast majority of people agreeing on the same thing" been wrong? See the difference?
On October 18 2012 01:54 VanGarde wrote:
I almost feel that it would be bad if 90% of people here did NOT agree with the op because if Blizzard had followed the suggestions of most random tl posters the game would be long dead already.
The "random TL'ers" you're talking about are players, and purchasers of the game. They are unhappy customers. They are people who are passionate about the game and only want the best for it. I would love to see you run a business!
On October 18 2012 01:54 VanGarde wrote:
If anything I keep getting my belief reinforced that the one thing that is wrong with sc2 is the poisonous community.
Yes you live in a paradise world filled with unicorns and flowers, where Blizzard knows what they're doing and we have no clue what we're talking about. Keep your delusion if it makes you happy.
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Unfortunately Blizzard may not care because there is no additional direct revenue potential once the game is purchased.
The old single game purchase running on a free multiplayer system is not working anymore. Blizzard would have to come up with a different revenue model (and I don't mean make b.net subscription-based...). I don't think this is something they will do.
I hope they do.
But I doubt it...
GG Blizzard.
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Waits for Hots beta for noticeable "bump" in viewers. "bump" goes away after 1 week. Makes thread on TL to attract attention to self. Noticeable bump in viewers. Eventually comes to the understanding he is a loser.
I don't know where starcraft 2 is heading. But i can see where incompetent morons who only look for streaming revenue are heading.
User was warned for this post
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On October 18 2012 01:58 Akta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 01:10 VanGarde wrote:On October 18 2012 01:09 Basique wrote:On October 18 2012 01:02 VanGarde wrote:
It is kind of interesting to see that there are so many people here who hold complete opposite visions of sc2 agree with each other without realizing that their visions are mutually exclusive. There is one group of people who feel that sc2 needs to be more mechanically demanding, allow for more early aggression and that hots is just dumbing it down too much. Most pro-gamers fall into this category. These people think that the failure of sc2 in Korea is because it is not as hard as Broodwar. Then there is the group of people who think that the problem is the opposite that sc2 is not tuned enough to the casual market and that it in fact should be MORE dumbed down. Both of these groups are writing in this thread about how they agree with Destiny, each seemingly thinking that he is talking about their method of reviving sc2.
The dilemma here is that a lot of the people who think Broodwar was a great game, would never play sc2 if it tried to be more like LoL. I belong to this group, in fact in my experience most people in this category feels that the problem with hots is in fact that it is trying to be more like LoL.
Either sc2 tries to be like LoL and Dota and take that market share, in which case we get hots, but then don't complain about how hots is dumbing the game down to attract more casual gamers. You didn't understand anything at all, and you are not the only one. NOWHERE it was state that there was a need for a casualized gameplay. Destiny talked about what is outside the game, so the lobby, the UI, the interface. Nor did you seem to understand my post. I was not saying that Destiny suggests the game should be easier. I am saying that a whole bunch of the people who are going "oooh aaaah! He is right!" Think that is what he is saying and that THEY see the solution as the game being more appealing to casuals. Quite sure even most pro gamers want the game to be more appealing to casuals, who wants to be the best at a game almost no one cares about? And it's hard to be a pro gamer without something that generates money, like the game being popular for example. Also, to be honest I don't think things like displaying worker saturation really matters for the pro scene, if they added 10 more things like that the best players will probably be same people as if they didn't change anything etc. Sure, everything matters to a degree but almost irrelevant changes will gets blown out of proportions by some people that will claim that, usually for unclear reasons, change X will be really bad for the game because something might be easier. But let's not assume "being more appealing to casuals" is same thing as making the game easier(whatever easier might mean). Sometimes it could equal to that but the only thing that should really matter is how fun the game is.
And yet worker saturation and auto-mining is precisely the first thing that pro's complained about when they got their hands on the hots beta.
The problem is psychological. Starcraft 2 is doing fine, there are now more games on the esports market that are also doing fine, this is a good thing, not the death of Starcraft. Starcraft does not even need to be the biggest esports game as long as games can coexist which I am certain that they can. People are afraid, and going with the knee jerk reaction to this and there is a danger in being too eager to just get the game more popular. I am convinced that it is way more important for games to define a niche and a personality than to be so broad that they appeal to all gamers.
If dota and lol can coexist while being almost the same game, then surely starcraft can coexist with moba games too. I can't help but draw similarities between this issue and Microsoft / Apple.
Apple was a huge innovator in the early days of the Macintosh then the company almost went out of business, after returning to the company Steve Jobs correctly identified that the problem had been a culture at Apple where the people who ran the company ran it under the assumption that for Apple to win Microsoft had to lose, not only that they also spread themselves too thin, having products in every market as a means to compete with Microsoft. They changed their mentality with a focus on defining a more personalized image and instead of going after every market they cut all products but their best and focused only on those and today the company is prosperous again.
Starcraft 2's existence in esports is not dependent on other games failing, nor is it necessary or even desirable for sc2 to appeal to all gamers. Starcraft 2 already has build a loyal following of players, instead of chasing after new ones the game should keep polishing on it's own personality to retain it's viewer base.
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On October 18 2012 02:15 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 01:54 VanGarde wrote:On October 18 2012 01:44 Apolo wrote:
From the comments i've been reading, if we made a poll i would say about more than 90% of people here (mostly) agree with the OP, which is very bad for Blizzard. I would love to see Blizzard / Activision firing Dustin Browder and co. who have proven they don't know what they're doing. Either that or just give Valve or Riot the game. I'm sure they would rock it. Yes because the people posting on TL threads are known for getting things right. You're distorting what i said. Yes "people posting on TL"can be wrong. But how many times has " the vast majority of people agreeing on the same thing" been wrong? See the difference? Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 01:54 VanGarde wrote:
I almost feel that it would be bad if 90% of people here did NOT agree with the op because if Blizzard had followed the suggestions of most random tl posters the game would be long dead already. The "random TL'ers" you're talking about are players, and purchasers of the game. They are unhappy customers. They are people who are passionate about the game and only want the best for it. I would love to see you run a business! Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 01:54 VanGarde wrote:
If anything I keep getting my belief reinforced that the one thing that is wrong with sc2 is the poisonous community. Yes you live in a paradise world filled with unicorns and flowers, where Blizzard knows what they're doing and we have no clue what we're talking about. Keep your delusion if it makes you happy.
And the vast majority of people who play this game do NOT post in these threads. This is the problem with these threads, most people who don't agree with Destiny's rant will not post on this thread. Most high level players don't post on tl at all. There have been sooo many threads predicting the death of sc2 over its short life span, there have been soo many fearmongering threads about this and that and guess what, they have all had the same kind of atmosphere of 90% of people in the thread agreeing with whatever was being discussed and most of those prophecies have not come true. So no, a tl thread is not a good data sample for accurate information and I am very glad that YOU are not running this business.
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Dustin Browder was apart of CnC. CnC was not as good as BW.
Dustin Browder is apart of SC2a,b,c. SC2a,b,c will not be as good as BW.
You need to take Artosis, Day9, Grubby, Boxer, etc etc, a few more big names, fly them into Anaheim, and say make a better game. And I'm positive they will do a better job than D. Kim & D. Browder. I'm positive they will make a better battle.net SC2 than D. Kim & D. Browder.
/my 2 cents.
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On October 18 2012 01:52 Kenpark wrote:
I dont get all the shitting on sc2. LoL is obv a whole different model. In LoL you dont start at equal footing at the start of the game and this is for me a big part of any competitive game.
I just started playing a little LoL, cause I wanted to see what all the buzz is about. So I started some games with some friends who already played LoL. Now the point is with all the talent/rune stuff, that you are from the get go already at a pretty big disadvantage when playing against more experienced players.
The heros right from the start are at least 20-30 % stronger than their newer player counterparts. Imagine you are playing a tvt, where your opponent starts with 1-1 marines. Is that really the model you guys are praising here so much ? That you have to play around 300 games just to start equal ? Imo that counteracts the competetive spirit, although it is obv a good business model.
This is a flawed argument though.
First off the way matchmaking works if you are not level 30 you will not play with level 30's. You will play with people who are the same level. This only gets a little complicated if you are playing with level 30 friends but all that does is mean you will be having a harder time but your level 30 friends will have an easier time so it balances out. And if you really want it balanced just ask your friends to play on a smurf.
Second you wont be getting competitive within the game until level 30 not because of runes or mastery's but because you don't know how to play the game. The way the game is played at lower levels and even at level 30 with lower elo players is staggering. Its a whole different game. And it has very little to do with runes or mastery's it has to do a lot more with the fact that before you play 300 games you are really bad at the game. The leveling up process is an amazing way to keep players interested while learning to play the game at a higher level. If there was no leveling process new players wouldn't be able to compete fairly with more experienced players because they are not as good! The only way you could argue this is if someone is naturally just an amazing moba player and you do have the skills to compete at a high level with only a few games played and my argument would be to just spend 5 bucks and get an xp boost and get max level in a blink of an eye.
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On October 18 2012 02:14 SolidMustard wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 01:52 Kenpark wrote:
I dont get all the shitting on sc2. LoL is obv a whole different model. In LoL you dont start at equal footing at the start of the game and this is for me a big part of any competitive game.
I just started playing a little LoL, cause I wanted to see what all the buzz is about. So I started some games with some friends who already played LoL. Now the point is with all the talent/rune stuff, that you are from the get go already at a pretty big disadvantage when playing against more experienced players.
The heros right from the start are at least 20-30 % stronger than their newer player counterparts. Imagine you are playing a tvt, where your opponent starts with 1-1 marines. Is that really the model you guys are praising here so much ? That you have to play around 300 games just to start equal ? Imo that counteracts the competetive spirit, although it is obv a good business model.
Hmm you don't make a lot of sense. In LoL you play with people who have the same lvl as you, so they have runes if you do, they dont if you dont
Last time I played you play with players which can be up to 10 level higher or lower (0-10, 10-20 and 20-30 play together). Did that change?
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I just wonders what does it has to take for Blizzard to listen?
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When I was at the launch event for WoL, I heard a developer say something that really disturbed me. They said something along the lines of, "It doesn't matter what we do, you will all still buy this game."
I bought it, and was disappointed, but they got their money. I bought Diablo3 and was let down, but they got their money. After that, I realized that heart of the swarm will probably not be a good game and I will not be buying it.
The funny thing is, I'm sure other people feel the same way, and Blizzard will learn their lesson.
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well in 2009 counter strike 1.6 had more money than ever in the scene so my answer is simply time, we need time and for all of the expansions to be out, too much is changing too fast once all of them are out and the game is in a steady state we'll see what we're looking for, also i'd like to point out that at this point in bw's life it was the year 2000 boxer hadn't even made a name for himself yet and the TV tourney's were still on cartoon channels for kids and no sc2 won't be able to compete with LoL or (once it's hit FULL release) dota 2 because sc2 still costs money to play, i think blizz would do well to take a page from valve and make sc2 free to play (i know...i know, just keep reading) and have some sort of client for watching tourney's in game at a small cost as well as having a different ladder for the free players (just like an unranked ladder or something) as well as ladders that have small buy-ins and the top ranked players on those ladders every season get a small share of the money people used to buy in while blizz keeps the majority the fundamental problem with rts's in general is they have NEVER been money makers as much as fps's have been and i think blizz needs to embrace that and find a new way to make some more money from the game other than just retail sales...
thats my 2 cents
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Regarding the prize money issue, what most people tend to overlook is the fact that 99% (approx) of SC2 tournaments are individual leagues/events (meaning it's 1vs1) which is what StarCraft has evolved about since EVER! If you compare SC to LoL it's like you compare individual sports like tennis or golf (I know it may be a bit off, but it should deliver the idea) to team games like basketball or soccer...
Always wondered why no one ever talks about the amounts of money the team as a whole would receive in case of being victorious?! Right, because it makes no sense at all as every player would receive his/her share of the money...
Whenever I hear about $1 million prize pool (or whatever) in LoL tourneys it just sounds enourmous but when you realize there are 5 people playing against another team consisting of 5 people (+additional 1-3 players on standby) what each player gets should be that different from what SC players receive in respective events...
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Dear Blizzard, just make Warcraft 4. Warcraft 3 not only spawned Dota and all of its clones (LoL, HoN, Dota 2 etc etc), but it also sits finely in between the skill requirements of Starcraft and LoL. My point is, Warcraft 4 has the potential to grab hold of all the LoL casual guys and also satisfy all the competitive rts guys. Not to mention, War3 is just a far more forgiving and "fun" game than Starcraft 2 (though sc2 takes more skill).
Anyways, My views on why the sc2 esports scene is dying off isn't nearly as drawn out as the OP. If the pro games were good enough to watch then people would stick around to watch, it's that simple. We don't get to see enough high quality games, though on occasion we do get some sick good series.
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its not only about not appealing to the casual gamer. its also about pro games being not interesting to watch because the game just never has been right, ever.
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This whole shit is a reflection of humanity's current intellectual level. I fear that BW, and now Sc2, are too cerebral for the average person. League of Legend is much more adapted to the casual and simple-minded.
Let's face it, people love consuming shit. Shitty music, shitty movies. Shitty video games are no exception.
That, and the lack of LAN
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On October 17 2012 14:00 LuckyFool wrote:Lots of valid points (I read destiny's reddit post) but is the ensuing shitstorm really worth it. I just don't feel this is going to be productive in any way other than to get people riled up. Blizzard just doesn't give a shit. 
Shitstorm doesn't matter as long as Blizzard actually gives shit, but yeah. Blizzard won't give shit. Can't blame Destiny for trying though.
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On October 18 2012 02:33 Djagulingu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 14:00 LuckyFool wrote:Lots of valid points (I read destiny's reddit post) but is the ensuing shitstorm really worth it. I just don't feel this is going to be productive in any way other than to get people riled up. Blizzard just doesn't give a shit. Shitstorm doesn't matter as long as Blizzard actually gives shit, but yeah. Blizzard won't give shit. Can't blame Destiny for trying though.
I think they most definitely DO give a shit, the question is, what would you have them do?
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i really enjoy sc2, i watch and sub to most of the content (even more if idra is in it) i buy the products sponsored and the gear pros claim they use . . . its working on me, but then again im a 32 year old working male with a very good job. Half the fucking problem here is the demographic are people who have no fucking money(disposable), live at home with their parents and basically cannot purchase MB's chair and all the other shit i see advertised at £250+. i love that intel cadvert, google iot to see it with a price tag of £300 . . holy shit. Most of the people playing this game are on a 2.4ghz pentiium 4 running at low graphics, not because they want to they have no choice.
after all this i agree with the statement, only blizz can grow this game and sport because id love to do a REAL survey and just see how much spending cash the average player has to put into the advertised products. Like i say above, i my case not a problem, but the 10 RL friends i have on this game have nothing and are playing on computers nearly older than my first child . . .
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EPT
