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Destiny on where he thinks SC2 is heading. - Page 42

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Vague
Profile Joined April 2011
170 Posts
October 17 2012 17:35 GMT
#821
One thing that could help SC is if Blizzard doesn't wait 8 years to make SC3. Given how many amazing new games come out each year, SC2 just won't be able to compete with the new stuff pretty soon. Blizzards approach to SC has to be more dynamic. We will need a SC3 in a few years or we will die. Sadly this won't happen unelss blizzard invests a lot on this project (the current team won't be able to pull the trick).
chrissummers
Profile Joined March 2011
243 Posts
October 17 2012 17:36 GMT
#822
i support this thread!
AnomalySC2
Profile Joined August 2012
United States2073 Posts
October 17 2012 17:38 GMT
#823
On October 18 2012 02:35 Vague wrote:
One thing that could help SC is if Blizzard doesn't wait 8 years to make SC3. Given how many amazing new games come out each year, SC2 just won't be able to compete with the new stuff pretty soon. Blizzards approach to SC has to be more dynamic. We will need a SC3 in a few years or we will die. Sadly this won't happen unelss blizzard invests a lot on this project (the current team won't be able to pull the trick).


I disagree with that. You can't make NBA basketball version 2011 (now with jetpacks!), 2012, etc etc. Once you have an esport, so long as it's good enough, you're done. That's the game.
MVega
Profile Joined November 2010
763 Posts
October 17 2012 17:38 GMT
#824
On October 18 2012 02:35 Vague wrote:
One thing that could help SC is if Blizzard doesn't wait 8 years to make SC3. Given how many amazing new games come out each year, SC2 just won't be able to compete with the new stuff pretty soon. Blizzards approach to SC has to be more dynamic. We will need a SC3 in a few years or we will die. Sadly this won't happen unelss blizzard invests a lot on this project (the current team won't be able to pull the trick).


What? StarCraft 2 is honestly the only game worth playing in the RTS genre right now. Nobody else makes RTS games that even come close. They can make 50 billion dota clones and fps games every year, but as far as RTS goes StarCraft 2 is it. Now if StarCraft 3 DID get released it would split the community up even more. That would probably kill StarCraft altogether.
bumkin: How can you play like 50 games per day... I 4gate 2 times then it's nap time
Valadash
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada31 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 17:41:27
October 17 2012 17:39 GMT
#825
On October 18 2012 01:58 VanGarde wrote:
See this is the problem though you can't both have the cake and eat it. Starcraft is a game with a following that wants a mechanically challenging game. Broodwar was successful for that reason. You can't keep the game that way while also pandering too much to the "casual" gamer. You know what you get then? World of warcraft arena.



You know there are non balance changes you can do to the game to make it appeal more to casuals like myself included. Like cosmetic stuff and features like the warcraft 3 tournament system. All I want with SC2 is some type thing to look forward to when I play. Look at DOTA 2. When I play a bad game and it was a rough loss sometimes I get an item and that makes me forget I just lost. So even if you lose in DOTA 2 you still feel good about it. In SC2 if you lose you get points/rank taken away from you. Not saying that we should not lose rank/points but we should gain something else.
NightOne
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada215 Posts
October 17 2012 17:41 GMT
#826
I think there are valid points in the opening post but I don't believe in it whole heartedly. Its posts like these that really hurt the community the most imo. Flocks of fans flock to read this and then hit the cookie-cutter "yup I agree" button in their head and probably just end up not playing the game any more because they think its dead or going nowhere.

Which brings me to my next point. The title: "Destiny on where he thinks..." Zero fucks given.

This article should be titled something like "State of the ga... " oh wait.. people already did that.. maybe "Current Status of SC2...." oh wait...

Like I said, there's some valid points in this article, but lets not kid ourselves that this hasn't been covered already and is basically just another one-time article that Destiny attempts to write in order to throw the spotlight back onto him.
Akta
Profile Joined February 2011
447 Posts
October 17 2012 17:42 GMT
#827
On October 18 2012 02:17 VanGarde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 01:58 Akta wrote:
On October 18 2012 01:10 VanGarde wrote:
On October 18 2012 01:09 Basique wrote:
On October 18 2012 01:02 VanGarde wrote:
It is kind of interesting to see that there are so many people here who hold complete opposite visions of sc2 agree with each other without realizing that their visions are mutually exclusive. There is one group of people who feel that sc2 needs to be more mechanically demanding, allow for more early aggression and that hots is just dumbing it down too much. Most pro-gamers fall into this category. These people think that the failure of sc2 in Korea is because it is not as hard as Broodwar. Then there is the group of people who think that the problem is the opposite that sc2 is not tuned enough to the casual market and that it in fact should be MORE dumbed down. Both of these groups are writing in this thread about how they agree with Destiny, each seemingly thinking that he is talking about their method of reviving sc2.

The dilemma here is that a lot of the people who think Broodwar was a great game, would never play sc2 if it tried to be more like LoL. I belong to this group, in fact in my experience most people in this category feels that the problem with hots is in fact that it is trying to be more like LoL.

Either sc2 tries to be like LoL and Dota and take that market share, in which case we get hots, but then don't complain about how hots is dumbing the game down to attract more casual gamers.


You didn't understand anything at all, and you are not the only one. NOWHERE it was state that there was a need for a casualized gameplay. Destiny talked about what is outside the game, so the lobby, the UI, the interface.

Nor did you seem to understand my post. I was not saying that Destiny suggests the game should be easier. I am saying that a whole bunch of the people who are going "oooh aaaah! He is right!" Think that is what he is saying and that THEY see the solution as the game being more appealing to casuals.
Quite sure even most pro gamers want the game to be more appealing to casuals, who wants to be the best at a game almost no one cares about? And it's hard to be a pro gamer without something that generates money, like the game being popular for example.

Also, to be honest I don't think things like displaying worker saturation really matters for the pro scene, if they added 10 more things like that the best players will probably be same people as if they didn't change anything etc. Sure, everything matters to a degree but almost irrelevant changes will gets blown out of proportions by some people that will claim that, usually for unclear reasons, change X will be really bad for the game because something might be easier.

But let's not assume "being more appealing to casuals" is same thing as making the game easier(whatever easier might mean). Sometimes it could equal to that but the only thing that should really matter is how fun the game is.

And yet worker saturation and auto-mining is precisely the first thing that pro's complained about when they got their hands on the hots beta.

The problem is psychological. Starcraft 2 is doing fine, there are now more games on the esports market that are also doing fine, this is a good thing, not the death of Starcraft. Starcraft does not even need to be the biggest esports game as long as games can coexist which I am certain that they can. People are afraid, and going with the knee jerk reaction to this and there is a danger in being too eager to just get the game more popular. I am convinced that it is way more important for games to define a niche and a personality than to be so broad that they appeal to all gamers.

If dota and lol can coexist while being almost the same game, then surely starcraft can coexist with moba games too. I can't help but draw similarities between this issue and Microsoft / Apple.

Apple was a huge innovator in the early days of the Macintosh then the company almost went out of business, after returning to the company Steve Jobs correctly identified that the problem had been a culture at Apple where the people who ran the company ran it under the assumption that for Apple to win Microsoft had to lose, not only that they also spread themselves too thin, having products in every market as a means to compete with Microsoft. They changed their mentality with a focus on defining a more personalized image and instead of going after every market they cut all products but their best and focused only on those and today the company is prosperous again.

Starcraft 2's existence in esports is not dependent on other games failing, nor is it necessary or even desirable for sc2 to appeal to all gamers. Starcraft 2 already has build a loyal following of players, instead of chasing after new ones the game should keep polishing on it's own personality to retain it's viewer base.
Starcraft doesn't need to "win" but unlike what you say a lot of people seem to argue that the sc2 esports scene is not doing fine. Like Destiny stated, most event organizers appear to be losing money while probably hoping esports will attract larger audiences "soon", most teams seem to be quite poor and so on. All which could be fine if the general interest was increasing but by the looks of things, it's been decreasing.
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
October 17 2012 17:43 GMT
#828
does destiny even play sc2 still? O_o
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
VanGarde
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden755 Posts
October 17 2012 17:44 GMT
#829
On October 18 2012 02:39 Valadash wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 01:58 VanGarde wrote:
See this is the problem though you can't both have the cake and eat it. Starcraft is a game with a following that wants a mechanically challenging game. Broodwar was successful for that reason. You can't keep the game that way while also pandering too much to the "casual" gamer. You know what you get then? World of warcraft arena.



You know there are non balance changes you can do to the game to make it appeal more to casuals like myself included. Like cosmetic stuff and features like the warcraft 3 tournament system. All I want with SC2 is some type thing to look forward to when I play. Look at DOTA 2. When I play a bad game and it was a rough loss sometimes I get an item and that makes me forget I just lost. So even if you lose in DOTA 2 you still feel fine. In SC2 if you lose you get points/rank taken away from you. Not saying that we should not lose rank/points but we should gain something else.


I don't even know how to being to approach that. It is a competitive game, if the solution is to make everyone feel like a winner even when they lose then I don't know. You don't get anything for losing in LoL either and that game is seemingly doing just as well. You do have something to look forward to in competitive games, winning and improving and that is often represented through points or ranks. You can't get away from that in any game, if you want a game where you have something to strive for but can't lose then none of the games we are discussing is for you, in that case I suggest World of Warcraft.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
AbideWithMe
Profile Joined October 2012
207 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 17:47:21
October 17 2012 17:45 GMT
#830
On October 18 2012 02:16 RMonkeyF wrote:
Waits for Hots beta for noticeable "bump" in viewers. "bump" goes away after 1 week. Makes thread on TL to attract attention to self. Noticeable bump in viewers. Eventually comes to the understanding he is a loser.

I don't know where starcraft 2 is heading. But i can see where incompetent morons who only look for streaming revenue are heading.

That's a bold statement but not completely uncalled for. To be honest I was actually expecting far more responses in this direction with an op with such a questionable past. Destiny was one of the first criticising SC2 for not having enough money in it if I'm not mistaken and he also was pretty fast when it came to switching games up and using his fame in the SC2 community for streaming completely different games (LoL being one).
""I abused a child today" -Stephano" - nmetasch
Danule
Profile Joined October 2012
Canada20 Posts
October 17 2012 17:45 GMT
#831
On October 18 2012 02:17 VanGarde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 01:58 Akta wrote:
On October 18 2012 01:10 VanGarde wrote:
On October 18 2012 01:09 Basique wrote:
On October 18 2012 01:02 VanGarde wrote:
It is kind of interesting to see that there are so many people here who hold complete opposite visions of sc2 agree with each other without realizing that their visions are mutually exclusive. There is one group of people who feel that sc2 needs to be more mechanically demanding, allow for more early aggression and that hots is just dumbing it down too much. Most pro-gamers fall into this category. These people think that the failure of sc2 in Korea is because it is not as hard as Broodwar. Then there is the group of people who think that the problem is the opposite that sc2 is not tuned enough to the casual market and that it in fact should be MORE dumbed down. Both of these groups are writing in this thread about how they agree with Destiny, each seemingly thinking that he is talking about their method of reviving sc2.

The dilemma here is that a lot of the people who think Broodwar was a great game, would never play sc2 if it tried to be more like LoL. I belong to this group, in fact in my experience most people in this category feels that the problem with hots is in fact that it is trying to be more like LoL.

Either sc2 tries to be like LoL and Dota and take that market share, in which case we get hots, but then don't complain about how hots is dumbing the game down to attract more casual gamers.


You didn't understand anything at all, and you are not the only one. NOWHERE it was state that there was a need for a casualized gameplay. Destiny talked about what is outside the game, so the lobby, the UI, the interface.

Nor did you seem to understand my post. I was not saying that Destiny suggests the game should be easier. I am saying that a whole bunch of the people who are going "oooh aaaah! He is right!" Think that is what he is saying and that THEY see the solution as the game being more appealing to casuals.
Quite sure even most pro gamers want the game to be more appealing to casuals, who wants to be the best at a game almost no one cares about? And it's hard to be a pro gamer without something that generates money, like the game being popular for example.

Also, to be honest I don't think things like displaying worker saturation really matters for the pro scene, if they added 10 more things like that the best players will probably be same people as if they didn't change anything etc. Sure, everything matters to a degree but almost irrelevant changes will gets blown out of proportions by some people that will claim that, usually for unclear reasons, change X will be really bad for the game because something might be easier.

But let's not assume "being more appealing to casuals" is same thing as making the game easier(whatever easier might mean). Sometimes it could equal to that but the only thing that should really matter is how fun the game is.

And yet worker saturation and auto-mining is precisely the first thing that pro's complained about when they got their hands on the hots beta.

The problem is psychological. Starcraft 2 is doing fine, there are now more games on the esports market that are also doing fine, this is a good thing, not the death of Starcraft. Starcraft does not even need to be the biggest esports game as long as games can coexist which I am certain that they can. People are afraid, and going with the knee jerk reaction to this and there is a danger in being too eager to just get the game more popular. I am convinced that it is way more important for games to define a niche and a personality than to be so broad that they appeal to all gamers.

If dota and lol can coexist while being almost the same game, then surely starcraft can coexist with moba games too. I can't help but draw similarities between this issue and Microsoft / Apple.

Apple was a huge innovator in the early days of the Macintosh then the company almost went out of business, after returning to the company Steve Jobs correctly identified that the problem had been a culture at Apple where the people who ran the company ran it under the assumption that for Apple to win Microsoft had to lose, not only that they also spread themselves too thin, having products in every market as a means to compete with Microsoft. They changed their mentality with a focus on defining a more personalized image and instead of going after every market they cut all products but their best and focused only on those and today the company is prosperous again.

Starcraft 2's existence in esports is not dependent on other games failing, nor is it necessary or even desirable for sc2 to appeal to all gamers. Starcraft 2 already has build a loyal following of players, instead of chasing after new ones the game should keep polishing on it's own personality to retain it's viewer base.


I agree with this 100%
@w@
VanGarde
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden755 Posts
October 17 2012 17:46 GMT
#832
On October 18 2012 02:42 Akta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 02:17 VanGarde wrote:
On October 18 2012 01:58 Akta wrote:
On October 18 2012 01:10 VanGarde wrote:
On October 18 2012 01:09 Basique wrote:
On October 18 2012 01:02 VanGarde wrote:
It is kind of interesting to see that there are so many people here who hold complete opposite visions of sc2 agree with each other without realizing that their visions are mutually exclusive. There is one group of people who feel that sc2 needs to be more mechanically demanding, allow for more early aggression and that hots is just dumbing it down too much. Most pro-gamers fall into this category. These people think that the failure of sc2 in Korea is because it is not as hard as Broodwar. Then there is the group of people who think that the problem is the opposite that sc2 is not tuned enough to the casual market and that it in fact should be MORE dumbed down. Both of these groups are writing in this thread about how they agree with Destiny, each seemingly thinking that he is talking about their method of reviving sc2.

The dilemma here is that a lot of the people who think Broodwar was a great game, would never play sc2 if it tried to be more like LoL. I belong to this group, in fact in my experience most people in this category feels that the problem with hots is in fact that it is trying to be more like LoL.

Either sc2 tries to be like LoL and Dota and take that market share, in which case we get hots, but then don't complain about how hots is dumbing the game down to attract more casual gamers.


You didn't understand anything at all, and you are not the only one. NOWHERE it was state that there was a need for a casualized gameplay. Destiny talked about what is outside the game, so the lobby, the UI, the interface.

Nor did you seem to understand my post. I was not saying that Destiny suggests the game should be easier. I am saying that a whole bunch of the people who are going "oooh aaaah! He is right!" Think that is what he is saying and that THEY see the solution as the game being more appealing to casuals.
Quite sure even most pro gamers want the game to be more appealing to casuals, who wants to be the best at a game almost no one cares about? And it's hard to be a pro gamer without something that generates money, like the game being popular for example.

Also, to be honest I don't think things like displaying worker saturation really matters for the pro scene, if they added 10 more things like that the best players will probably be same people as if they didn't change anything etc. Sure, everything matters to a degree but almost irrelevant changes will gets blown out of proportions by some people that will claim that, usually for unclear reasons, change X will be really bad for the game because something might be easier.

But let's not assume "being more appealing to casuals" is same thing as making the game easier(whatever easier might mean). Sometimes it could equal to that but the only thing that should really matter is how fun the game is.

And yet worker saturation and auto-mining is precisely the first thing that pro's complained about when they got their hands on the hots beta.

The problem is psychological. Starcraft 2 is doing fine, there are now more games on the esports market that are also doing fine, this is a good thing, not the death of Starcraft. Starcraft does not even need to be the biggest esports game as long as games can coexist which I am certain that they can. People are afraid, and going with the knee jerk reaction to this and there is a danger in being too eager to just get the game more popular. I am convinced that it is way more important for games to define a niche and a personality than to be so broad that they appeal to all gamers.

If dota and lol can coexist while being almost the same game, then surely starcraft can coexist with moba games too. I can't help but draw similarities between this issue and Microsoft / Apple.

Apple was a huge innovator in the early days of the Macintosh then the company almost went out of business, after returning to the company Steve Jobs correctly identified that the problem had been a culture at Apple where the people who ran the company ran it under the assumption that for Apple to win Microsoft had to lose, not only that they also spread themselves too thin, having products in every market as a means to compete with Microsoft. They changed their mentality with a focus on defining a more personalized image and instead of going after every market they cut all products but their best and focused only on those and today the company is prosperous again.

Starcraft 2's existence in esports is not dependent on other games failing, nor is it necessary or even desirable for sc2 to appeal to all gamers. Starcraft 2 already has build a loyal following of players, instead of chasing after new ones the game should keep polishing on it's own personality to retain it's viewer base.
Starcraft doesn't need to "win" but unlike what you say a lot of people seem to argue that the sc2 esports scene is not doing fine. Like Destiny stated, most event organizers appear to be losing money while probably hoping esports will attract larger audiences "soon", most teams seem to be quite poor and so on. All which could be fine if the general interest was increasing but by the looks of things, it's been decreasing.

Perhaps that is so, but if that is the case it is either because A) Sc2 grew too much and is now shrinking back to the actual capacity of the esports scene or B) there is no actual capacity for an esports scene in the long term.

Neither of these are any different for LoL or dota or sc2. If that is the case then the sad reality is that there is not enough of an esports market to uphold any game to the point we want it to be and both LoL and dota will suffer the exact same thing. I have a hard time believing that teams for those games have any better chance of turning a profit than sc2 teams have.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
Vandal
Profile Joined January 2009
United States138 Posts
October 17 2012 17:48 GMT
#833
On October 18 2012 02:35 Vague wrote:
One thing that could help SC is if Blizzard doesn't wait 8 years to make SC3. Given how many amazing new games come out each year, SC2 just won't be able to compete with the new stuff pretty soon. Blizzards approach to SC has to be more dynamic. We will need a SC3 in a few years or we will die. Sadly this won't happen unelss blizzard invests a lot on this project (the current team won't be able to pull the trick).

Starcraft games in the future should follow the free-to-play model. The success of LoL as an esport is in part due to the huge playerbase watching the tournaments. Even if Blizzard makes SC2 extremely casual to get more players interested you can't beat the ease-of-entry of other games if they're free.
Riquiz
Profile Joined June 2011
Netherlands402 Posts
October 17 2012 17:52 GMT
#834
He def. made some good/interdesting points ^^' Most of them I tend to agree upon, but i'm not sure about the Viva La ...
Caster man does casting on yt/RiquizCasts
PesteNoire
Profile Joined June 2012
151 Posts
October 17 2012 17:53 GMT
#835
This game is dying. Its not fun or accessible to play with real life friends. You don't get the feel you had logging onto WC3 where you could hang out with online friends.
I enjoy the team aspect of games but now in masters in 3v3, what fun is it to queue only to lose to 10 pool/hellion/cannon rushing arranged teams?
The game is a disaster.
p1cKLes
Profile Joined November 2010
United States342 Posts
October 17 2012 17:54 GMT
#836
I think if they simply fixed the UI, that would be a huge step in the right direction. Destiny has some very valid points, but I also don't think it has to be one or the other as I said before. You can make a competitive game similar to BW, but also cater to the casual gamer.
LOLItsRyann
Profile Joined April 2011
England551 Posts
October 17 2012 17:56 GMT
#837
On October 18 2012 02:43 zhurai wrote:
does destiny even play sc2 still? O_o


Yes, he's currently tryharding in MoW, streams everyday...
EG<3
Vandeam
Profile Joined March 2011
Norway28 Posts
October 17 2012 18:01 GMT
#838
I have never really been a fan of destiny... infact more or less strongly disliked him. But reading this post.. I agree 100% with it.
Kenpark
Profile Joined March 2012
Germany2350 Posts
October 17 2012 18:01 GMT
#839
On October 18 2012 02:14 SolidMustard wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 01:52 Kenpark wrote:
I dont get all the shitting on sc2. LoL is obv a whole different model. In LoL you dont start at equal footing at the start of the game and this is for me a big part of any competitive game.
I just started playing a little LoL, cause I wanted to see what all the buzz is about. So I started some games with some friends who already played LoL. Now the point is with all the talent/rune stuff, that you are from the get go already at a pretty big disadvantage when playing against more experienced players.
The heros right from the start are at least 20-30 % stronger than their newer player counterparts. Imagine you are playing a tvt, where your opponent starts with 1-1 marines. Is that really the model you guys are praising here so much ? That you have to play around 300 games just to start equal ? Imo that counteracts the competetive spirit, although it is obv a good business model.



Hmm you don't make a lot of sense. In LoL you play with people who have the same lvl as you, so they have runes if you do, they dont if you dont


Not when you play with friends like I said. I think most people get to new games by their friends at least thats how I started. If I play with my level 30 friend I obv get laned with other high level players, who have way more runes/talents than I have with level 20.

Also runes are role specific. If I start with playing ad carry and want to play ap mid for a change, I kinda have the same problem described above. So before I am level 30 and have the optimal runeset for all 5 roles I start with a disadvantage.

The same is also true the other way around. I saved all my points for level 20 to buy the best ad carry runes you can have and now I start with a pretty big advantage laning against everybody, who didnt do the same.

I think that is a pretty big flaw in the game. The game should be around skill and not who has the best runes or even paid for them.
I mean who many games do I need for like 4-5 heros for every role, with all the best runes for each role ? I dont know but probably at least 300-400 games.
XXXSmOke
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States1333 Posts
October 17 2012 18:02 GMT
#840
I wish Riot or Valve would actually make a competent RTS so SC2 would have a competitor.

IMO no competition=Blizz can do whateve the fuck they want and people will play it cuz its the only decent option.

At this rate I have so much more faith in those companys than Blizzard, which is really sad because I have been die hard blizzard since the beginning.
Emperor? Boxer disapproves. He's building bunkers at your mom's house even as you're reading this.
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